S.Hrg.119-35

1[Senate Hearing 119-35]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                                                         S. Hrg. 119-3556                HEARING TO CONSIDER PENDING LEGISLATION78=======================================================================910                                HEARING1112                               BEFORE THE1314                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS15                          UNITED STATES SENATE1617                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS1819                             FIRST SESSION2021                               __________2223                             MARCH 11, 20252425                               __________2627       Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs2829                [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]3031        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov32                               ______3334                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE353659-776 PDF                WASHINGTON : 20263738                 SENATE COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS3940                     Jerry Moran, Kansas, Chairman4142John Boozman, Arkansas               Richard Blumenthal, Connecticut, Ranking43Bill Cassidy, Louisiana                Member44Thom Tillis, North Carolina          Patty Murray, Washington45Dan Sullivan, Alaska                 Bernard Sanders, Vermont46Marsha Blackburn, Tennessee          Mazie K. Hirono, Hawaii47Kevin Cramer, North Dakota           Margaret Wood Hassan, New48Tommy Tuberville, Alabama                Hampshire49Jim Banks, Indiana                   Angus S. King, Jr., Maine50Tim Sheehy, Montana                  Tammy Duckworth, Illinois51                                     Ruben Gallego, Arizona52                                     Elissa Slotkin, Michigan5354                     David Shearman, Staff Director55                Tony McClain, Democratic Staff Director5657                            C O N T E N T S5859                              ----------6061                             March 11, 20256263                                SENATORS6465                                                                   Page66Hon. Jerry Moran, Chairman, U.S. Senator from Kansas.............     167Hon. Richard Blumenthal, Ranking Member, U.S. Senator from68  Connecticut....................................................     269Hon. Tommy Tuberville, U.S. Senator from Alabama.................    1170Hon. Mazie K. Hirono, U.S. Senator from Hawaii...................    1271Hon. Bill Cassidy, U.S. Senator from Louisiana...................    1472Hon. Margaret Wood Hassan, U.S. Senator from New Hampshire.......    1573Hon. Angus S. King, Jr., U.S. Senator from Maine.................    1774Hon. Jim Banks, U.S. Senator from Indiana........................    1975Hon. Ruben Gallego, U.S. Senator from Arizona....................    2076Hon. Bernard Sanders, U.S. Senator from Vermont..................    237778                               WITNESSES7980                                Panel I8182Mark R. Engelbaum, Assistant Secretary, Office of Human Resources83  and Administration/Operations, Security, and Preparedness, U.S.84  Department of Veterans Affairs accompanied by Al Montoya,85  Deputy Chief Operating Officer, Veterans Health Administration,86  U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs; Melissa Cohen, Acting87  Deputy Under Secretary for Policy and Oversight, Veterans88  Benefits Administration, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs;89  Kenesha Britton, Assistant Deputy Under Secretary for Field90  Operations, Veterans Benefits Administration, U.S. Department91  of Veterans Affairs; and Kevin Friel, Executive Director,92  Pension and Fiduciary Service, Veterans Benefits93  Administration, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs............     59495                                Panel II9697Cole Lyle, Director, Veterans' Affairs and Rehabilitation98  Division, The American Legion..................................    2899100Ashlynne Haycock-Lohmann, Director, Government and Legislative101  Affairs, Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors..............    30102103Patrick Murray, Director, National Legislative Service, Veterans104  of Foreign Wars of the United States...........................    31105106                                APPENDIX107108                             Hearing Agenda109110List of Pending Bills............................................    47111112                          Prepared Statements113114Mark R. Engelbaum, Assistant Secretary, Office of Human Resources115  and Administration/Operations, Security, and Preparedness, U.S.116  Department of Veterans Affairs.................................    51117118                      Prepared Statements (cont.)119120Cole Lyle, Director, Veterans' Affairs and Rehabilitation121  Division, The American Legion..................................   103122123Ashlynne Haycock-Lohmann, Director, Government and Legislative124  Affairs, Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors..............   122125126Patrick Murray, Director, National Legislative Service, Veterans127  of Foreign Wars of the United States...........................   146128129                       Submissions for the Record130131Senator Blumenthal:132133  The New York Times article ``Chaos at the V.A.: Inside the DOGE134    Cuts Disrupting the Veterans Agency''........................   161135136  Stakeholder statements; ``What the Veterans Community is137    Saying''.....................................................   170138139  Joint Unions Opposing S. 124, ``Restore VA Accountability Act''   172140141  National Fraternal Order of Police, Patrick Yoes, National142    President....................................................   174143144Senator Moran:145146  The American Legion (TAL), Cole Lyle, Director, National147    Veterans Affairs and Rehabilitation Division.................   175148149  Association of Mature American Citizens (AMAC) Action, Andrew150    J. Mangione Jr., Senior Vice President.......................   177151152  Black Veterans Empowerment Council (BVEC), Inc., Shawn L.153    Deadwiler, Chairman of the Board and President...............   178154155  Firearms Regulatory Accountability Coalition (FRAC), Inc.,156    Travis R. White, President and CEO...........................   179157158  Gun Owners of America, Aidan Johnston, Director of Federal159    Affairs......................................................   180160161  Military Order of the Purple Heart, Robert Olivarez Jr.,162    National Commander...........................................   182163164  National Disability Rights Network (NDRN), Marlene Sallo,165    Executive Director...........................................   183166167  National Rifle Association of America (NRA), John Commerford,168    Executive Director, NRA-ILA..................................   185169170  National Shooting Sports Federation (NSSF), Lawrence G. Keane,171    Senior Vice President, Government and Public Affairs.........   186172173  Turning Point Action...........................................   188174175  Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States, Nancy Springer,176    Associate Director...........................................   189177178  Vietnam Veterans of America, Jack McManus, National President..   190179180                        Questions for the Record181182Department of Veterans Affairs response to questions submitted183  by:184185  Hon. Marsha Blackburn..........................................   193186187  Hon. Angus S. King, Jr.........................................   194188189                       Statements for the Record190191American Federation of Government Employees (AFGE), AFL-CIO......   199192193Gold Star Spouses of America, Inc................................   216194195Multi-Organizational statement...................................   222196197Paralyzed Veterans of America....................................   228198199Veterans Guardian VA Claim Consulting, LLC, William C. Taylor,200  LTC (Ret.), U.S. Army, Co-Founder, and Chief Operating Officer.   237201202                HEARING TO CONSIDER PENDING LEGISLATION203204                              ----------205206                        TUESDAY, MARCH 11, 2025207208                                       U.S. Senate,209                            Committee on Veterans' Affairs,210                                                    Washington, DC.211    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:32 a.m., in212Room SR-418, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Jerry Moran,213Chairman of the Committee, presiding.214215    Present: Senators Moran, Cassidy, Tuberville, Banks,216Sheehy, Blumenthal, Sanders, Hirono, Hassan, King, and Gallego.217218             OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JERRY MORAN,219               CHAIRMAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM KANSAS220221    Chairman Moran. Good morning, everyone. Thank you for your222presence and welcome.223    We meet this morning to consider 15 pieces of legislation224sponsored by Senators from both sides of the aisle. I am225grateful to the sponsors of the bills on today's agenda for226their work and our witnesses for being here to offer their227perspectives on these proposals.228    Before turning to our agenda items I want to address the229recent changes being considered at the VA in regard to230workforce. I think the VA needs reform. The status quo is231something this Committee spends its time trying to improve on.232We had hearings with veteran organizations two weeks ago, last233week, in regard to how do we make things work better. If the234status quo were working, we would not have spent those two235weeks hearing from VSOs and ways the VA needs to improve.236    This is not a political statement. I am just kind of237outlining where I think we are.238    However, changes that affect VA policy and personnel must239be thoughtful, transparent, carried out in close coordination240with this Committee, with our colleagues and with stakeholders,241including veterans and the VSOs who represent them here in242Washington, DC.243    I am working on legislation that would require the VA's244workforce planning to follow that model, because Congress must245play a significant role in strategically shaping VA workforce246decisions, to achieve the right outcomes for veterans and their247families. I have personally conveyed this message to Secretary248Collins. The Secretary has committed to me that he will testify249before this Committee about his plans and how he intends to250eliminate waste and inefficiency and refocus resources to251improve delivery of health care and benefits to veterans, and I252look forward to being able to schedule that hearing.253    That includes making certain that the VA remains well254staffed by a quality workforce and that efforts to right-size255that workforce are done in a responsible manner, and treat the256men and women who entered public service to care for veterans,257many of whom themselves are veterans, with respect and258gratitude.259    Turning to today's agenda, these bills include legislation260that I have introduced, the Veterans' ACCESS Act, the Restore261VA Accountability Act, Love Lives On Act, and External Provider262Scheduling Act. Together, these bills will build on bipartisan263successes Congress has achieved in prior years to expand access264to care and benefits for veterans and survivors, remove265barriers to lifesaving mental health care, and root out poor266performers to strengthen the VA's workforce. I look forward to267hearing testimony on these and other bills on today's agenda.268    With that I yield to Senator Blumenthal, and I decided it269sounded better to call him the Vice Chairman instead of Ranking270Member. So I yield to the Vice Chairman of the Committee for271his opening remarks.272273         OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL,274         RANKING MEMBER, U.S. SENATOR FROM CONNECTICUT275276    Senator Blumenthal. Whatever my title, Mr. Chairman, I277thank you, and thank you for having this hearing. Thank you to278our witnesses today. Most of you are seasoned, experienced, and279dedicated civil servants, and I respect you greatly for your280service.281    But I want to be very blunt: you are not the ones we should282be hearing from today. Seated at that dais should be Secretary283Collins, and I have expressed this view to my colleague and284friend, Chairman Moran, and I am glad to hear that he is in285informal talks with Secretary Collins. But he should be where286you are right now, so we can ask him about the chaos and287confusion, the apparent malevolent, cruel, and callous actions288that have been taken against the VA workforce, firing 2,400 VA289employees already with dire impacts on veterans, 80,000290additional VA employees that the Secretary plans to cut--he has291affirmed it in recent interviews, but not to this Committee; he292can talk to the press but not us--and how this effort will293effectively roll back the PACT Act that we worked so hard on a294bipartisan basis to pass. The PACT Act is a linchpin of modern-295day protection of veterans, and even as we speak, veterans are296asking questions about whether the benefits and care of the297PACT Act will be available to them because of these drastic,298draconian cuts.299    And, of course, the cancellation of hundreds of VA300contracts, many of them central to patient safety. Ending the301research grants that, in the past, have proved breakthrough302advancements in care for veterans and for our general303population, in cardiac care, in prosthetics, in all kinds of304areas where the VA has been at the cutting edge of research305through these grants.306    To respond to these kinds of really egregious actions, I307will be introducing later this week the Putting Veterans First308Act, and I invite my Republican colleagues as well as309Democratic Senators to join in this action to protect veterans,310protect veterans.311    Number one, rescind all firings, all of them, of veterans312that have occurred so far, in any agency or branch of the313Federal Government. Put them all back to work.314    Number two, all of the employees of the Veterans315Administration, whether or not they are veterans, rescind their316firing. Put them back to work.317    Number three, establish a standard for any kind of318termination that occurs in the future, that is based on319performance, not on political rhetoric or bumper slogan Musk320declarations, or his algorithms, or AI formulas.321    Number four, make sure that veterans who have been offered322this fork in the road, that they can terminate their decision323to end their employment right up to the day that they would324leave the government, because there is the vast potential for325unfairness. And as to any veterans who may be terminated, at326any point, give them an appeal process, an effective means of327appealing any action as to them.328    Today's hearing would be welcome. There are some good329pieces of legislation on the table. You will be commenting on330them. I have read your testimony. But business as usual will331not get it at this moment in our history. The VA is in crisis.332It is literally a five-alarm fire for the VA. This legislation333may be well-intentioned and may have good effects, but it334constitutes rearranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic,335literally. That analogy is often overused, but in this instance336it applies perfectly. We are talking about rearranging chairs337on the deck of a sinking ship, and it is not an iceberg that338has been hit. It is a torpedo from Secretary Collins, Donald339Trump, and Elon Musk that has hit the VA and is sinking it,340purposely, relentlessly, dangerously for our veterans. And the341effects are already apparent. I am going to ask, Mr. Chairman,342that an article that appeared in The New York Times over the343weekend be entered into the record.344    Chairman Moran. Without objection.345346    [The article referred to appears on pages 161-169 of the347Appendix.]348349    Senator Blumenthal. This article is factual and hard-350hitting. It is an account of the chaos and confusion at the VA,351confirming our urgent cries to stop the bleeding. That is a352quote from the VFW Commander in Chief--``Stop the Bleeding.''353And I commend the VSOs for their leadership and their354objections to what is happening at the VA, and I am going to355ask, Mr. Chairman, that excerpts from their past testimony be356entered into the record.357    Chairman Moran. Without objection.358359    [The information referred to appears on pages 170-171 of360the Appendix.]361362    Senator Blumenthal. Veterans have been short-changed and363systematically betrayed by these cruel cuts in staff and364critical resources, resulting from the Trump-Musk-Collins anti-365vet policies. It is intentional malevolence or benign neglect.366Either way, we need to stop it, and that should be the purpose367of our hearing today. It is the purpose of the legislation that368I will introduce to stop the bleeding and sound the alarm and369make sure that we preserve veterans' benefits and care, as they370should be.371    I hope my colleagues will join me in using this hearing as372an opportunity to sound the alarm. We cannot pretend that the373bills before us meet the moment. The fact that this374Administration is actively undermining and rolling back a375number of our recent bipartisan accomplishments, canceling or376proposing to cancel contracts critical to implementation of the377Dole Act or the Deborah Sampson Act, or simply firing thousands378of employees critical to the basic functioning of the379Department, from schedulers who connect veterans to care in the380community, to claims staff who process PACT Act claims, we381cannot ignore the ongoing ship sinking right before us.382    And I will press for Secretary Collins to come before us383and answer these questions so that veterans can hear from him,384directly, and so that Members of our Committee are given the385respect that we deserve. To the VSOs on the second panel, thank386you for being here. I hope your testimony today not only takes387into consideration the merits of this legislation but also the388developments that are so deeply concerning.389    And I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this opportunity to390speak in advance of the testimony.391    Chairman Moran. I will now introduce the first panel.392Testifying today from the Department of Veterans Affairs is393Mark Engelbaum, the Assistant Secretary of the Office of Human394Resources and Administration/Operations, Security, and395Preparedness--there was a longer line than I realized in your396title.397    He is accompanied by Al Montoya, the Deputy Chief Operating398Officer of the Veterans Health Administration; Melissa Cohen,399the Acting Deputy Under Secretary for Policy and Oversight at400the Veterans Benefits Administration; Kenesha Britton, the401Assistant Deputy Under Secretary for Field Operations at the402Veterans Benefits Administration; and Kevin Friel, the403Executive Director of the Pension and Fiduciary Service at the404Veterans Benefits Administration.405    Thank you all for being here this morning, and Mr.406Engelbaum, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.407408                            PANEL I409410                              ----------411412STATEMENT OF MARK R. ENGELBAUM, ASSISTANT SECRETARY, OFFICE OF413 HUMAN RESOURCES AND ADMINISTRATION/OPERATIONS, SECURITY, AND414 PREPAREDNESS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS ACCOMPANIED415BY AL MONTOYA, DEPUTY CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER, VETERANS HEALTH416 ADMINISTRATION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS; MELISSA417COHEN, ACTING DEPUTY UNDER SECRETARY FOR POLICY AND OVERSIGHT,418 VETERANS BENEFITS ADMINISTRATION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS419AFFAIRS; KENESHA BRITTON, ASSISTANT DEPUTY UNDER SECRETARY FOR420   FIELD OPERATIONS, VETERANS BENEFITS ADMINISTRATION, U.S.421  DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS; AND KEVIN FRIEL, EXECUTIVE422  DIRECTOR, PENSION AND FIDUCIARY SERVICE, VETERANS BENEFITS423      ADMINISTRATION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS424425    Mr. Engelbaum. Good morning, Chairman Moran, Vice Chairman426Blumenthal, and other Members of the Committee. Thank you for427inviting us here today to present our views on bills affecting428VA's programs and veterans' benefits. As just mentioned,429joining me today is Mr. Al Montoya, the Deputy Chief Operating430Officer of Veterans Health Administration; Ms. Melissa Cohen,431Acting Deputy Under Secretary for Policy and Oversight,432Veterans Benefits Administration; Ms. Kenesha Britton,433Assistant Deputy Under Secretary for Field Operations, Veterans434Benefits Administration; and Mr. Kevin Friel, Executive435Director, Pension and Fiduciary Service, Veterans Benefits436Administration.437    In general, VA offers support and is appreciative of much438of the proposed legislation before us today and looks forward439to working with the Committee to further refine and strengthen440it.441    First, VA supports the Restore Accountability Act of 2025,442subject to amendments and the availability of appropriations.443The Department of Veterans Affairs Accountability and444Whistleblower Protection Act of 2017 provided the VA with445additional authorities to take disciplinary action against446senior executives and to take adverse actions against certain447VA employees.448    Chairman Moran. Mr. Engelbaum, would you pull the mic449closer to your face?450    Mr. Engelbaum. Sorry. That explains why it was so close to451me to begin with, so my apologies.452    Chairman Moran. It is a compliment. We want to hear what453you have to say.454    Mr. Engelbaum. And I appreciate that, sir. Thank you.455    The Department of Veterans Affairs Accountability and456Whistleblower Protection Act of 2017 provided VA with457additional authorities to take disciplinary action against458senior executives and to take adverse actions against certain459VA employees. Unfortunately, the VA has faced significant legal460challenges implementing the act, and we welcome the opportunity461to address concerns with the Restore Accountability Act in462order to mitigate litigation risk and ensure that the463implementation issues of the 2000 Act do not resurface.464    VA strongly supports the Veterans' Assuring Critical Care465Expansions to Support Servicemembers Act of 2025, or the ACCESS466Act, as it is known. This is a critical piece of legislation467designed to enhance access to essential health care services468for our veterans, and it aligns directly with the Department's469priorities. The bill would enhance VA's ability to provide470timely and effective care and provide high quality VA care both471in the community and in VA's direct care system.472    VA also appreciates the Committee's interest and focus on473helping improve VA's scheduling systems. Most importantly, this474bill puts veterans first.475    VA supports the draft External Provider Scheduling Program476bill but has concerns with Improving Veteran Access to Care477Act, and would appreciate the opportunity to work with the478Committee to ensure that enacted legislation does not479inadvertently impede the Department's ability to continue480ongoing efforts to enhance our scheduling capabilities.481    VA also supports, with amendments and subject to the482availability of appropriations, the Aviator Cancers Examination483Study Act, also known as the ACES Act, the Representing VA with484Accuracy Act, the Veterans Mental Health and Addiction Therapy485Quality of Care Act, and the VetPAC Act of 2025, and Caring for486Survivors Act of 2025.487    The VA looks forward to working with the Committee to amend488these bills to ensure we are providing the best possible care489and benefits to veterans, their families, caregivers, and490survivors.491    The VA also supports the Second Amendment Protection Act,492subject to the availability of appropriations, but recommends493including language that would clearly exempt an individual494deemed incompetent for purposes of the VA fiduciary program495from being ``adjudicated as a mental defective,'' as defined by496the Department of Justice. Without this clarification, veterans497or survivors determined to need a fiduciary for VA purposes may498face criminal liability when transferring, receiving, or499possessing a firearm or ammunition.500    The VA also supports Ensuring VetSuccess on Campus, subject501to the availability of appropriations, but it seeks amendment.502VA would like to work with the Committee to update the bill to503allow benefits counseling on campus to be provided by a VA504employee, such as a public contact or outreach specialist505rather than a vocational rehabilitation counselor.506    VA generally supports the Servicemembers and Veterans507Empowerment and Support Act, or the SAVES Act of 2025, subject508to the availability of appropriations. The SAVES Act is aligned509in many ways with VA's substantial progress toward addressing510military sexual trauma, providing support through advocacy, and511developing targeted policies, procedures, and training512initiatives. Nevertheless, as written, the proposed bill513language is more limiting than the VA's current regulation,514which applies the use of alternative evidence to personal515assault. Additionally, there are several sections of the bill516that are duplicative of VA's existing efforts in the MST space.517    We appreciate the Committee's leadership and would welcome518the opportunity to collaborate on the bill.519    Lastly, VA is still reviewing potential impacts from the520Love Lives On Act, Veteran Fraud Reimbursement Act, and the521Veterans Claims Act of 2025, and is unable to provide views at522this time.523    On behalf of the VA and the veterans we serve, thank you524for your support, and thank you again for the opportunity to525discuss legislation that will improve our service to our526veterans, servicemembers, and their families. My colleagues and527I would be pleased to answer any questions you or the other528Members of the Committee may have on these vital legislative529initiatives.530    Mr. Chairman, this concludes my statement.531532    [The prepared statement of Mr. Engelbaum appears on pages53351-102 of the Appendix.]534535    Chairman Moran. Mr. Engelbaum, thank you for your536statement, your testimony. Thanks for your presence.537    I want to talk a minute about your Love Lives On Act. I do538not know whether you want to direct the answer to the person to539answer it. I will ask this of you, Mr. Engelbaum, and you can540decide who should answer.541    Current law prohibits surviving spouses to maintain certain542benefits from VA and DoD if they remarry before the age of 55.543However, in addressing this inequity, it has come to our544attention that if a surviving spouse remarries before 55, it is545on them, the spouse, to inform the VA so they can stop546disbursing disability and indemnity compensation benefits to547the survivor, and often it takes the VA months or years to548actually stop the payments, resulting in a debt on the survivor549that has to be paid back.550    Can you explain why this takes so long for the VA to fix551this in your system, and why it is the survivor's fault that552the VA is providing them with overpayments? And what outreach553is the VA doing to inform survivors of current restrictions in554the law if a survivor does choose to remarry before 55?555    [Pause.]556    It was not who I thought you would choose.557    Mr. Friel. Yes, sir. Thank you for the question, Senator.558As stated, we do not have views yet on the act itself, but as559far as the current and existing process, when we receive the560notification from a spouse we create a claim that needs to be561worked. And so it----562    Chairman Moran. Could you also pull the mic closer?563    Mr. Friel. Sorry. We create a claim that then needs to be564worked, and it goes into our existing inventory. We are working565on process improvement, so like a potential for automation of566some of these claims as well as the ability to expedite some567and make sure they move faster.568    But as of this point, it goes into the existing backlog and569it gets worked in conjunction with all the other workload that570comes in that we have responsibility for.571    Chairman Moran. Let me ask a follow up, a related question,572at least. Several provisions of the original Love Lives On573Act--and I know you are not prepared to testify about that574act--but several provisions have already been signed into law575in the last Congress with the passage of the Elizabeth Dole576Act. What outreach has the VA done to inform survivors of the577education benefits they are eligible for if they do remarry,578and which office within the VA is responsible for conducting579this outreach to survivors, in general, so that they are aware580of their benefits and eligibility requirements?581    In other words, we made some changes in the law. Is anybody582actively making certain that survivors, who remarry, know that583they are now eligible for education benefits?584    Mr. Friel. Sir, I am not from the education. I do not know585what they did as far as outreach. As far as within the DIC586space, when they are awarded their benefit we provide them587notification that if they remarry that they need to provide us588information. We also provide them what other potential benefits589they may be entitled to.590    Additionally, every eight years we will provide for a591survivor who is under age 55, we will provide them a592notification, whether or not to provide information, whether or593not they remarried. And then if they have, we will take the594action. If they have not, and they reply that they have not, we595are good for the next eight years.596    Chairman Moran. Let me ask the question this way. Would it597be true or untrue that after the passage of the Elizabeth Dole598Act that survivors are receiving any additional information599from the VA than they did before?600    Mr. Friel. Within my department, sir, I----601    Chairman Moran. How about within your department.602    Mr. Friel. Within my department, what we have in the603Elizabeth Dole Act is more around the burial space, so we are604not providing any additional information to survivors.605    Chairman Moran. Mr. Engelbaum, anybody else on your panel606for that question? Ms. Britton?607    Ms. Britton. Yes, sir. Within the field of operations we do608have a comprehensive outreach program that does include a609survivors element. With those survivors' outreach events we do610have benefit tables where they talk about education benefits as611well as survivor benefits, and that does include those changes.612    Chairman Moran. Thank you very much. Mr. Engelbaum, I613appreciate the VA's support of the ACCESS Act and the614Department's suggestions for technical and clarifying changes615that could make the bill stronger, better. Can you give me your616commitment that the VA will provide technical assistance to my617office following today's hearing?618    Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, absolutely. We truly appreciate the619offer to do that, and we will take you up on that.620    Chairman Moran. Thank you very much. Senator Blumenthal.621    Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Engelbaum,622can I count on you to support the protecting--Putting Veterans623First Act?624    Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, I will be happy, once we see the625legislation, to do a thorough review along with the Agency. And626first and foremost, as the Secretary has stated, veterans627always remain at the forefront of everything we do at the VA.628It is why we exist, it is why we are here, and we will look629forward to looking at that legislation,630    Senator Blumenthal. Okay, can you give me your reactions by631the end of the week if I get you a draft?632    Mr. Engelbaum. I will definitely look at the draft, sir. I633can't guarantee by the end of the week. We will definitely634comment on that, sir, and return to you----635    Senator Blumenthal. You are aware that the Secretary has636said that the VA is not making decisions to illegally fire--and637I emphasize ``illegally fire''--thousands of staff and638implement an ongoing hiring freeze without proper analyses. Do639you have those written analyses? Can you provide them to us? We640have asked for them. We have received no response.641    Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, absolutely. In fact, I will offer642today, we are in the process of doing a very thorough analysis,643and Mr. Chairman, Vice Chairman, I will be happy to come, to644personally come, and brief the Committee on our planning645process.646    Senator Blumenthal. Well, we want the documents. We have647asked for the documents. You must have documents, right?648    Mr. Englebaum. Yes. Senator, what is happening right now is649that a lot of stuff and information has come out in the news650with respect to a one-off, off of a news article, so for651example, the VA's cutting 70,000----652    Senator Blumenthal. Well, I apologize for interrupting you,653but my time is limited.654    Mr. Engelbaum. Yes sir.655    Senator Blumenthal. I am asking for the analysis, the656documents, the metrics, the methodology. There is no apparent657methodology or metrics. It is by the seat of your pants, and it658is illegal. I want to make clear, by the way, I am in favor of659improving the VA. Every organization can be improved. Making it660better, to quote the Chairman, ``has to be a common661objective.'' But not with a chainsaw. Not with a meat ax, with662a scalpel. And I see no indication that there are written663documents--because we have asked for them--or analyses or664metrics or methodology. Can you confirm that you have them?665    Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, very clearly, yes. What is666happening, to be clear, the 70,000 or 80,000 figure you see is667a planning factor. We have just commenced our actual analyses.668We have an ongoing analysis that is going to take place over669the next three to four months that is going to do a down to the670microlevel examination of our entire structure, mission,671management, across the board. That analysis is ongoing, and I672reiterate, sir, I will be very happy to come and brief you in673detail on what the VA is doing to make sure we refocus our674priorities on taking care of our veterans and righting that675ship, that you rightly said before, I would say is adrift.676    Senator Blumenthal. So, you fired 2,400 people without677doing that analysis?678    Mr. Engelbaum. Sir, what happened is--and I cannot go into679specific details because there is litigation--what happened is680we released approximately 2,400 folks out of 40,000681probationary employees----682    Senator Blumenthal. And you implemented a hiring freeze683without any analysis?684    Mr. Engelbaum. In order to actually shape and prepare for685what we need to do as an organization, we are preparing the way686so that we can rightly reorganize and reform the Department as687it needs to be done. We still continue to hire 300,000 critical688positions that we have identified. They are on the books. We689continue to do our mission and focus on taking veterans--taking690care of our veterans every day.691    Senator Blumenthal. None of what you have said just now is692a plan. None of it is an analysis, a methodology, a metric. And693that is what we are asking you to do.694    Let me ask you, how many employees have been removed or695resigned from the Office of General Counsel?696    Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, I will have to take that for the697record. I do not have that number.698699------------------------------------------------------------------------700701-------------------------------------------------------------------------702VA Response: As of April 8, 2025, records indicate that since January703 20, 2025, zero (0) employees have been removed and 12 have resigned704 from the Office of General Council.705------------------------------------------------------------------------706707    Senator Blumenthal. You do not have that. How about from708the Equal Employment Opportunity staff?709    Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, I do not have any specific710breakdown by office of specific employees. What we do have----711    Senator Blumenthal. How many employees have been removed712from work on human resources?713    Mr. Engelbaum. I do not have a specific breakdown by714independent organizations, Senator.715    Senator Blumenthal. You have 600 to 800 exempted positions716currently backlogged on OPM's list, correct?717    Mr. Engelbaum. I believe that is around 700 or so, sir,718that is my understanding. I am not sure about that.719    Senator Blumenthal. And yet you are firing 2,400, and you720have a plan--that is the word of the Secretary--to fire at721least 80,000.722    Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, as I mentioned before, we are in723the middle of a planning process. We are going to follow the724science. We are going to reform this agency to make sure that725it is focused on taking care of our veterans. You yourself726mentioned we take a look at it. We have 470,000 employees in727the Department of Veterans Affairs. We have increased over72880,000 in the last four years. We have increased our budget by72985 percent. The PACT Act is really important, sir, we730understand that, but----731    Senator Blumenthal. Well, you are going to decimate the732PACT Act if you do not have the position filled for the people733who process the claims. You are going to have inexcusable734delays. You are engaged in indiscriminately decimating that735workforce. I do not know why you needed the Restore Act if you736are just willy-nilly firing people without a plan. Your737approach seems to be fire them now, plan later.738    Mr. Engelbaum. Sir, despite the fact that we have increased739by 80,000 and our budget has increased by 85,000, our inventory740backlog has increased by over, from around 275,000 to over741935,000. Our claims processing time has increased; our accuracy742has decreased. So, we have hired about 48,000 employees for the743PACT Act. Sitting here today, I cannot tell you exactly--and in744some areas we do know where they went--we do not know where all745these employees are. We need to restore, you are right,746accountability. We need to make sure that the employees that we747hire are doing the valuable mission that they have been hired748to do, and part of that is putting them in those very areas749that you mentioned.750    Senator Blumenthal. You have failed to provide this751Committee the documents or analysis that we requested. You752failed to do that analysis before you started firing people and753freezing hiring and ending contracts, canceling them illegally.754And I find that response unacceptable.755    Mr. Engelbaum. Thank you, sir.756    Chairman Moran. Senator Tuberville.757758                     HON. TOMMY TUBERVILLE,759                   U.S. SENATOR FROM ALABAMA760761    Senator Tuberville. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for762being here today. Largest health care system in the world. My763God, what a job you all have got, right?764    You know, when I first got here, the first thing we did in765this Committee, we rehired 4,000 people the Trump766administration had fired because of costs. What did we do? We767hired them back and gave them back pay.768    You know, this is about the veterans. I mean, this is not769about the dang workers. Now, we cherish our workers. Same thing770here. My job is to help people, and the same thing as yours.771    I am a proud co-sponsor of Chairman Moran's Restore VA772Accountability Act. I mean, we have got to have good people.773And I know it is hard to hire people. It is really hard. I have774dealt with it all my life. But we have to take care of our775veterans.776    We could pass a trillion-dollar bill today--a trillion777dollars--and give to the VA. It would be gone in a matter of778time, and it would not help anything. It is not about money. It779is about the right efforts of doing the right thing for our780veterans. I have got 500,000 veterans in my State of Alabama,781and it is growing. And we have got good VAs. We have got some782that are not so good.783    But thanks for trying to do this, but again, we have got to784get good people in there, and I can understand what we are785trying to do.786    The VA's inspector general recently highlighted several787failures within the fiduciary programs such as millions of788dollars of benefits being disbursed without oversight.789Unfortunately, bad actors have found their way to take790advantage of veterans, and we have to combat fraud. I do not791understand why, with all this AI now, that we do not have792companies that can come in and stop a lot of this fraud. Mr.793Engelbaum, do you agree with that?794    Mr. Engelbaum. Yes, Senator. I think one of the things that795we are doing in our review is looking at what technology and796what systems that we can actually put in place and actually797reinvest to improve services to our veterans, to improve798accountability. We are hampered by some of the systems that we799have. In the limited time I have been with the VA, I have been800talking to our employees and our folks about what they actually801need to do the mission effectively. That is a big focus of what802we need to do.803    We are not trying to recreate the past. We are trying to804prepare for the future. And part of that is refocusing our805efforts, as you just rightly said, on our veterans, getting the806systems that we need, and getting our focus right on that807mission.808    Senator Tuberville. Well, I would hope that we would look809into a lot of these companies. I have had people come to me and810say, ``Coach, we have a program right now that could save the811VA $20 to $30 billion a month, but nobody will talk to us.'' We812need to open up our eyes to this and talk to people that can813help organize what the VA is doing and quit doing what we did81450 years ago. I mean, this is the 21st century. My God, we have815got to open our eyes.816    So I would hope that we would be more competent on looking817at the things of the future. And again, anything that we can do818to help our veterans.819    Are there ways that we can improve incompetency in820determining the process of all this fraud that is coming in,821that you have seen so far? And I know you have not been there822long.823    Mr. Engelbaum. Yes, sir, I can also, but very quickly from824my perspective, absolutely. You know, it is about focus. It is825about getting our organization focused on the mission,826streamlining it, and making sure that we are laser-focused on827what we need to do, on what systems we need to do, on the828veterans.829    Look, I love the VA. I love our employees. I came out of830retirement because I am passionate about serving our veterans831and improving their veterans care. But we need to do better,832and we can. When we talk about employees, this is a failure of833us, as leaders, to make sure that we organize properly, we are834focused, and then we drive the mission to accomplish what we835set out to do.836    Kevin, did you have some comments on that?837    Mr. Friel. Yes, sir, as it relates to the incompetency838decision. Part of what that IG report identified 311839individuals who did not have the right coverage or the right840oversight. That was because we did just that. We migrated from841an old legacy system to VBMS, where we have more insight, we842have better control of the data. And in that migration some of843the records were lost because of bad data in the old system.844    We did review all 311 cases. We found no circumstances845where anybody had been taken advantage of their funds had been846misused or where there was any indication of fraud.847    Senator Tuberville. Thank you. Mr. Engelbaum, if I send you848the names of these companies that are calling me consistently,849would you follow up on that, and in terms of fraud, trying to850get us in the 21st century of this AI, that we should be using851every day, especially in the VA?852    Mr. Engelbaum. Absolutely, sir. I would be happy to do853that. Thank you.854    Senator Tuberville. Thank you.855    Chairman Moran. Senator Hirono.856857                     HON. MAZIE K. HIRONO,858                    U.S. SENATOR FROM HAWAII859860    Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this hearing.861Of the number of bills that are on the agenda, three of them862are mine, and I am glad to say that the VA is in support of two863of them, with a request for more time for the third one. These864are the Rep VA Act, the VetPAC Act, which VA supports, and the865Veterans Fraud Reimbursement Act, which the VA says it needs866more time to review, even though the VA did testify in support867of this act in a House subcommittee.868    The thing is, Mr. Chairman, that we can have all of these869bills, but if the VA does not have the manpower, does not have870the personnel to implement the various bills that we pass, what871are we doing here? So I share the Vice Chair's concerns about872what is going on with the VA.873    Now, we know that Federal employees are being fired across874the board, in every department, not just in VA. Thousands of875Federal employees are being fired, 2,400 being fired from the876VA.877    Mr. Engelbaum, were these initial firings based on any kind878of an analysis of competence? Any performance analysis that led879to the firing of 2,400 people from the VA?880    Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, I cannot talk to specifics on the881actual analysis. One, as I mentioned earlier on, it is subject882to litigation right now. And the second----883    Senator Hirono. Excuse me. You know, everybody knows that884these firings were across the board, and of course it is going885to lead to litigation. Do not use litigation as an excuse for886coming to tell us that you cannot talk about it. These were887across-the-board firings of people on probationary status. It888impacted not just the VA--and, by the way, another 80,000-plus889will be getting fired. Yes, those will lead to more litigation.890    President Trump issued something like 26 Executive orders891on day one of his Administration. I would say that there are892probably lawsuits filed as to every single one of these, as893expected, because many of these EOs were totally illegal. But894we have an Administration that does not give a rip about the895rule of law. So do not come here and tell us that you cannot896talk about what the basis of these firings were. I think the897fact of the matter is that they were across the board.898    I do not know how the VA is supposed to do its job when, on899the one hand, it is firing, by the time you are through, the900Administration is through, some 80, 90, 85,000 people from the901VA, and at the same time you are trying to hire some 300,000.902So on the one hand you are letting go all these people, not903based on any performance analysis, and on the other you are904trying to hire 300,000 or so people. I mean, who would want to905work for any of agencies with all this chaos going on?906    So, Mr. Chairman, much as I support the legislation that we907have, I really wonder what is this exercise that we are908undergoing here, where many of these bills, including the three909that I introduced, all in a bipartisan way, and as I mentioned910earlier, this is one of the few committees where we are able to911get things done in a bipartisan way. So I would be very912supportive, except that we have an Administration that does not913seem to have its controls, its hands on the levers of control,914because we have an Administration that is continuing to sow915chaos, and litigation abounds. There are about 70 lawsuits that916are ongoing and numerous judges are saying to the917Administration, ``You can't do that,'' and we have to have918hearings on whether or not this Administration intends to even919follow court orders.920    So, Mr. Chairman.921    Chairman Moran. Senator Cassidy.922923                       HON. BILL CASSIDY,924                  U.S. SENATOR FROM LOUISIANA925926    Senator Cassidy. Thank you all. First, on a lighter note,927they give us a little biography of each of you, and Ms.928Britton, I see that you write poetry. I do not know if I have929ever had that in somebody's kind of brief bio, that they write930poetry. So anyway, my mother is from South Carolina, and she931wrote poetry, so I feel a little connection there. Thank you.932    You folks commented on our VetPAC Act. I will just say, as933a member of the Senate, it has been very difficult sometimes to934have an independent analysis of what is being done in the935Veterans Administration. And Senator Hirono and I entered this936as an imitation, if you will, of what MedPAC and MACPAC do,937giving Congress a lot of insights into how Medicare and938Medicaid work. So it is patterned after those.939    In your testimony, you say that the commission could impede940the VA's ability to respond quickly to address veterans' needs941if it is requesting information or conducting investigations942while the VA is attempting to respond to a new problem. Can you943give me an example of how--could you give me this information944that would impact clinical care of a patient, of a veteran?945    Mr. Montoya. Yes, sir. Thanks so much for that question.946And I think a great example of this would be our quadrennial947review process that is going on right now, which really takes a948look at all of our medical centers across the country and949determines where----950    Senator Cassidy. Does the quadrennial review interrupt951patient care?952    Mr. Montoya. It does not. It actually goes in conjunction953with it, sir.954    Senator Cassidy. So the quadrennial review, of course, is955every four years, but let me ask, it does not--what I just956heard--it does not interrupt your capacity to address the957veteran's health care need. So why would an ongoing review,958looking at specific issues, such as MedPAC and MACPAC do,959disrupt patient care? I do not follow your criticism, since you960just gave me quadrennial review, which is more comprehensive961and it does not interrupt.962    Mr. Montoya. Yes. So I think the bottom line is that we do963support this, Senator, and I think----964    Senator Cassidy. Oh good, because I was under the965impression that you thought that it might not.966    Mr. Montoya. Yes, we actually do support this bill. And so967one of the things that we do have concerns on is that there is968just a number of other initiatives that are overlapping with969it, so we just wanted to make sure that that does not interfere970at all.971    Senator Cassidy. And in our vision, at least, we would be972including issues not included in the quadrennial review, for973example, the training of health care providers, which is not in974the quadrennial review.975    So I am glad you like it. Once you get the answer you want,976you shut up. I yield.977    [Laughter.]978    Chairman Moran [Inaudible.]979980                   HON. MARGARET WOOD HASSAN,981                U.S. SENATOR FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE982983    Senator Hassan. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to you and984Senator Blumenthal for holding this hearing. A welcome to all985of our witnesses. Mr. Engelbaum, thank you for testifying986today. I have to give a shout-out to Al Montoya, who led the987Manchester VA Center with distinction a few years back, and it988is good to see you again, and I thank you for your work.989    Look, this hearing is about legislation, and I want to talk990about some of the pending bills before us. But I, too, want to991talk about some of the Trump administration's recent actions992and how they have impacted the Manchester VA and I think the993system in general. Because look, as you were discussing fraud,994I could not help but say, but gee, the Trump administration995fired the inspector general, who is the guy in charge of996rooting out fraud, right, as they fired inspectors general997across government. There are 2,400 arbitrary firings just998because people were probationary employees at the VA, not999because there was any analysis of the kind of work they did or1000why they were hired to do what they did.1001    I talked to a doc from the Manchester VA yesterday morning,1002and you know what she had to do in the middle of a really1003chaotic week, in the Veterans Administration? She is a busy1004doctor. She had to send to Elon Musk a list of the things that1005she did that week. Talk about bureaucracy.1006    So there are a lot of reasons we are concerned. I want to1007drill down on those with you, Mr. Engelbaum, and then I hope to1008get to a question about one piece of legislation.1009    As you know, the PACT Act became law in 2022, and it1010greatly expanded eligibility for care and benefits for veterans1011who were exposed to toxins. Since it became law, more than1012200,000 veterans have enrolled for VA care under the PACT Act,1013and more than 2.3 million PACT Act-related benefit claims have1014been submitted.1015    To serve these veterans, the VA hired more than 60,000 new1016employees to meet the increased demand for VA care and1017benefits. Since President Trump has taken office, though, the1018VA has fired 2,400 employees and now is planning to fire 80,0001019more. Not only does this contradict the clear intent of1020Congress, it really does a disservice to our veterans. When you1021fire VA employees, veterans suffer. If you fire front desk1022staff, veterans cannot schedule appointments. If you fire1023maintenance and support employees, hospitals and equipment do1024not get cleaned. If you fire Benefits Administration employees,1025claims get delayed.1026    So Mr. Engelbaum, can you guarantee that if the VA fires1027thousands more employees, it will not take longer for veterans1028to get appointments and receive care?1029    Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, thank you. That is absolutely our1030objective.1031    Senator Hassan. So can you guarantee it? Are you confident1032now that firing people with an arbitrary number out there, you1033are not going to impact their care?1034    Mr. Engelbaum. Yes. Thank you, Senator Hassan. We do not1035have an arbitrary number, as I was trying to explain. There was1036a planning factor out there. We have a detailed, about a four-1037month process that we are undergoing in reviewing our complete1038structure, our organization, in order to do just what you are1039saying, to make sure that all our resources are focused on the1040veteran and their care.1041    Senator Hassan. So I am going to hold you to this. You are1042now guaranteeing that after you fire tens of thousands of1043employees, it will not take longer for veterans to get1044appointments and receive care.1045    Now let's go to, can you guarantee that if the VA fires1046thousands more employees, hospitals and equipment, all those1047things, the hospitals and equipment will remain clean and safe?1048Yes or no.1049    Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, what I am guaranteeing is a1050detailed, methodical look and review, a much-needed review of1051our structure to ensure that our manpower and resources are1052focused on our veterans and their care.1053    Senator Hassan. So you are not going to guarantee that. Can1054you guarantee that if the VA fires thousands more employees,1055benefits claims will not be delayed?1056    Mr. Engelbaum. Ma'am, I guarantee we are going to do a1057detailed, thoughtful review, and focus our efforts on improving1058our service to our veterans.1059    Senator Hassan. But that is not a guarantee, because you do1060not know what is going to happen, but you are already naming1061the number of employees you are going to reduce.1062    We are going to watch what you are doing, and I will echo1063Senator Blumenthal's request for the written plan, the metrics1064you are using, and the reasons you think that this kind of mass1065firing is going to result in improved efficiency.1066    As you may know, New Hampshire does not have a full-service1067VA hospital. In 2023, then candidate Trump visited New1068Hampshire and promised a brand-new, state-of-the-art VA1069hospital for the Granite State, saying that we would no longer1070be without a full-service facility. Now it seems to me that if1071you are building a new full-service hospital, you are going to1072have to hire people to help provide new services.1073    So is the VA going to hire contractors and employees to1074build and work in the new facility President Trump promised1075Granite Staters, or is the plan to cut resources and hope that1076we do not notice?1077    Mr. Engelbaum. The plan, Senator, is to ensure that we1078focus all of our resources, as much as we can, on the direct1079care of our veterans. We have grown exponentially over the past1080decade or more. We have increased our budget immensely. But1081our----1082    Senator Hassan. Right, because we are helping a lot more1083veterans, and we have to stretch to reach that goal, and there1084is work to be done. I am right with all my colleagues. This has1085been a bipartisan effort. We want the best care possible and1086the best services possible for our veterans. And we have work1087to do. We need to invest in new systems, which by the way, it1088has not always been easy to get bipartisan support throughout1089the Federal Government for doing that.1090    But being arbitrary, and as the head of VFW said last week,1091using a meat cleaver instead of a scalpel is not the way to do1092this. So I am going to hold the President to his promise for a1093new, full-service VA center in New Hampshire, I am going to1094insist that it be properly staffed, and I am looking forward to1095seeing written documentation and an analysis that indicates1096that things will be better off after you take staffing back to10972019 levels, in spite of the new people we are helping with1098PACT Act. I will be looking for that analysis, because right1099now it is not adding up.1100    Thank you, Mr. Chair.1101    Chairman Moran. Senator King.11021103                    HON. ANGUS S. KING, JR.,1104                    U.S. SENATOR FROM MAINE11051106    Senator King. I was struck when Senator Cassidy mentioned1107poetry. So I asked ChatGPT to write us a poem about the firings1108at the VA. Here is the poem, which I will provide for the1109record:11101111    ``In a land where the eagle proudly soared,1112    where freedom's song was oft restored;1113    a shadow crept across the plains,1114    as whispers spoke of recent pains.11151116    The halls, once filled with earnest care,1117    now echoed with a vacant air;1118    for hands that healed and hearts that served,1119    found futures tossed, their paths unnerved.11201121    The veterans, with stories deep,1122    their guardians gone, their solace steep;1123    they wondered if the promises made,1124    were fading like the evening shade.11251126    Oh, what of honor, what of trust,1127    when noble missions turn to dust;1128    yet in the hearts where courage burns,1129    the spirit of the warrior yearns.11301131    For though the times are harsh and cold,1132    the tales of valor ever bold;1133    remind us, both young and old,1134    that some truths are worth more than gold.11351136    So raise a glass to those who have stood,1137    in every field, through fire and blood;1138    and may we find in days ahead,1139    the wisdom to restore what has fled.''11401141    Pretty amazing, and I think it captures what is going on1142here.1143    By the way, firing 80,000 people will reduce the VA budget1144by 1.2 percent. I think we ought to keep that in mind, because1145people think, well, we are cutting the budget, we are saving a1146lot of money, 1.2 percent. This is performance. This is not1147policy. And it is 80,000 people. The memo of March 4th says,1148``Our initial objective is to return to our 2019 end1149strength.'' That is 83,000 people.1150    So I just do not know how anybody with a straight face say1151that you are going to cut that many people and still provide1152the same level of services. It just does not compute.1153    The second piece that I want to inquire about, and I will1154ask you this question, is what about these contracts? I saw the1155little video of the Secretary the other day, proudly saying we1156have eliminated 600 contracts and we are going to save all this1157money. I want to know what the contracts are, and we have been1158asking that for a week, and we are getting no answers.1159    What are those 585 contracts for, because I fear that they1160are for mental health counselors, or radiology technicians, or1161maintenance? I mean, those contracts are for something. And it1162is an insult to this Committee and to the United States Senate1163that we have no transparency whatsoever on what these contracts1164are. So that is a pretty simple ask. Will you take that1165question back, Mr. Engelbaum?1166    Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, it would be my pleasure.1167Unfortunately, I do not have a lot of information on the1168specific contracts. That is handled under a different1169mechanism. But I will take that for record and take that back.1170    Senator King. Well, somebody knows. And I do not expect you1171to know, but somebody knows what those contracts are because1172they made a decision to cut them, and I think that information1173should be shared with this Committee.11741175------------------------------------------------------------------------11761177-------------------------------------------------------------------------1178VA Response: Because this same question is pending as part of a QFR1179 response and a separate letter response, we will provide the response1180 to this due-out once it has been cleared to share through the (formal)1181 QFR and letter channels.1182------------------------------------------------------------------------11831184    It is hard for me to understand what is going on here1185except a motivation to show that we are cutting the workforce1186for relatively small returns in terms of the overall budget of1187the agency. I think you [briefly turns to face Senator Hassan]1188used the term ``meat cleaver.'' The operative term is1189``chainsaw.'' That is what that grinning guy is using is a1190chainsaw, instead of a thoughtful process.1191    So I would like to see, as I think has already been1192requested, what the plan is for these 83,000 people. How are1193you going to approach that? Who is going to do it? What is the1194criteria? Because it is hard for me to believe. I understand,1195and you said we have grown, for sure. But seven new bills have1196been passed with regard to veterans' benefits since 2019, the1197biggest being the PACT Act, which require a lot of people to1198administer. So I just want to know how you are going to resolve1199those kinds of issues.1200    I apologize, Mr. Chairman, for not speaking to these bills,1201but these people had the good luck to be here today. Thank you1202for your testimony, and we look forward to working with you on1203these bills. This is a very bipartisan Committee. The PACT Act1204passed by bipartisan majorities in both houses. So we want to1205work on those things. But we need some facts, and I, for one,1206believe that the Agency ought to be providing that information.1207    Mr. Engelbaum. Thank you, Senator. And as I stated1208previously, it would be my pleasure to come and brief you and1209this entire Committee on our plan and the thoughtful review1210that we are undergoing right now, to get at what the ultimate1211number will be, and what we should look like in the future for1212success, to better serve our veterans.1213    Senator King. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I will submit my1214poem for the record.1215    Chairman Moran. Senator Banks.12161217                        HON. JIM BANKS,1218                   U.S. SENATOR FROM INDIANA12191220    Senator Banks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Engelbaum, is1221the VA too bureaucratic?1222    Mr. Engelbaum. I think the Federal Government as a whole is1223the definition of bureaucracy.1224    Senator Banks. There are obviously places where we can1225create efficiencies and deliver services to veterans better?1226    Mr. Engelbaum. There absolutely are. There absolutely are,1227in any large organization, but especially--look, I came to the1228VA because I am dedicated to the mission of our veteran. But I1229know, and after speaking with a lot of folks, many of them--1230employees, veterans--there is a lot of bureaucracy there. We1231can do better. We will do better. We need to flatline our1232management. We need to flatline organizations. We need to1233streamline mission. We need systems that can do what we need1234them to do. There is so much work that we have to do. And as we1235have proven, more and more people, more and more money is not1236the answer. It is not saying that we will not put the money1237into people where we need them, but it is not the answer.1238    Senator Banks. Yes, I agree. How would the Restore VA1239Accountability Act improve the VA workforce by giving1240supervisors more authority?1241    Mr. Engelbaum. There is nothing more disheartening to our1242workers themselves than having substandard employees around1243them. There is nothing, as everybody knows, that brings down an1244organization more by having employees that do not do what they1245need to do, and you are unable to either remove them, take1246disciplinary action, or it becomes so painful that they1247continue to exist.1248    What happens is we rely more and more heavily on our top1249performers, on our middle performers. And don't get me wrong--1250we have so many dedicated employees in the VA, so many people1251that have dedicated their lives to veterans, non-veterans,1252spouses, you name it. The vast majority are good, hard-working1253folks that want to do well. But we have those that do not. And1254there is nothing that destroys an organization more. And those1255employees, working next to them, know who they are.1256    Senator Banks. So is it a morale issue?1257    Mr. Engelbaum. It is a morale issue. It is a performance1258issue. It is a workload issue. And we want to make sure that we1259have due process. That is really, really important. But we1260cannot stymie leadership and management. And I always remind1261people, managers are part of that. They are employees too. We1262need to hold managers accountable. It is not an ``us versus1263them'' question. It is a matter of us, as a team, and1264everybody, at every level, has to be held accountable.1265    Senator Banks. Mr. Montoya, Senator Moran has legislation1266on the agenda to improve community care providers' scheduling.1267And Senator Hassan has legislation to improve internal VHA1268scheduling. Can you talk about how those two work together and1269what improvements would veterans trying to get appointments see1270if both of those bills were enacted?1271    Mr. Montoya. Yes. Thanks so much for the question, Senator.1272I think, you know, I reflect on my time as a medical center1273director at three different stations, as well as my most recent1274experience in the field. And where I see external provider1275scheduling working is that it reduces the amount of time that1276it takes for a veteran to get an appointment scheduled in the1277community.1278    So, for example, without external provider scheduling, it1279takes roughly 30 minutes for a veteran to get scheduled in the1280community, whereas with EPS it is actually about 7 minutes for1281that to happen. So it allows our scheduling staff, our team, to1282be more efficient as they are looking at the scheduling grids,1283for other physicians in the community. So it really helps out,1284and the two work together in collaboration, to make sure that1285we are providing that care.1286    Senator Banks. Great. I hope we can get both of them done.1287    Mr. Friel, what problems are you having disciplining1288veteran benefits claim agents today without any new legal1289authority?1290    Mr. Friel. Yes, Senator. Thank you for that question. One1291of the concerns we have is that, you know, we have all heard1292the claim sharks and all of that. Right now, the only authority1293we have is from the Office of General Counsel to send a cease-1294and-desist order. We have no other ramifications outside of1295that. You know, they just change their business model and come1296back as someone new. So the ability to be able to actually1297prosecute people and take action against people who are1298basically defrauding our veterans and misusing----1299    Senator Banks [continuing]. Authority, other than a cease-1300and-desist letter?1301    Mr. Friel. Cease and desist. Yes, sir.1302    Senator Banks. Okay. What are the most common rules that1303claim agents or attorneys break?1304    Mr. Friel. One of the major rules is that for an initial1305claim, there should not be any fees charged. And we have these1306agencies that go in and they promise veterans that we will help1307you get a good rating, and then they charge on the back end.1308You know, they take a part of the retroactive payment, they1309take part of what their change is over the course of a period1310of time, and they take money from our veterans, who are1311entitled to that because of their level of disability.1312    Senator Banks. It seems really gross, and I hope we can do1313something to crack down on it. Thank you very much. I yield1314back.1315    Chairman Moran. Senator Gallego.13161317                      HON. RUBEN GALLEGO,1318                   U.S. SENATOR FROM ARIZONA13191320    Senator Gallego. Well, in the spirit of Senator King I was1321actually trying to write a haiku, but I could not get to the1322last line. I will have to submit it for the record once I get1323there.1324    But in the other area where Senator King was talking about,1325one of the programs that has been identified, something that is1326very personal to me, is the National Center for PTSD, which is1327the world's leading research and educational center on post-1328traumatic stress disorder. For us that have PTSD this is1329extremely important because we know that it is an evolving1330field of research that could also help not just us but also end1331up saving us money in the long run if we find better treatments1332for PTSD that are more effective, quicker, and also, in some1333regards, cheaper.1334    But that is one of the contracts that was just terminated1335recently. And this is really to Mr. Montoya. The VA said that1336the terminations would not negatively affect veteran care,1337benefits, or services, and that they were identified through a1338deliberate, multilevel review.1339    I am really concerned that these terminations will1340negatively impact veterans' care, specifically something like1341this. So can you explain what safeguards you have in place to1342make sure this will not happen, and how you will restore1343contracts that were incorrectly terminated? Because in my1344opinion, if it was identified through deliberative, multilevel1345review, I have no idea how someone could look at the National1346Center for PTSD, which other countries actually talk and try to1347get research from to help their veterans, how that came under1348the purview of being cut?1349    Mr. Montoya. Yes, thank you so much for that question. I1350think this is one that is near and dear to my heart, as I was1351up in Vermont, and they do have the National Center for PTSD.1352And I think there is a very deliberative process in looking at1353the contract review to make sure that there is not any ill will1354that occurs to our veterans.1355    There is also a process for us to reverse those, as has1356been done in many, many cases. So I would be happy to look at1357that particular contract that you are asking about and see what1358it entails.1359    Senator Gallego. And then another contract that was listed1360for cancellation was the VA's PACT Act Enterprise Management1361Office, which supports the VA's ability to carry out the1362benefits and health care delivery promised under the bipartisan1363PACT Act, again, something very personal to me. I lived next to1364a burn pit for almost a month. The men that I served with, some1365of them have died, unfortunately, from toxic exposure, some of1366them from very rare cancers, at young ages. So I am very1367concerned that some of these reductions, while we are trying to1368finally help these men and women, are actually going to be1369impacted and actually we are going to be sliding backward.1370    Since the bill was signed, nearly 60,000 veterans in1371Arizona have filed claims.1372    Can you, Mr. Engelbaum, can you please explain how the1373cancellation of this contract will not impact those1374beneficiaries who qualify for the PACT Act benefits and health1375care? And there are still more men and women that actually are1376jumping onto this, because we want them to actually get their1377services and disability ratings because of the PACT Act.1378    Mr. Engelbaum. Yes, Senator. Unfortunately, I cannot1379address that specific contract. I am happy to take that back.1380You know, as I just stated, one of the things was, it is not1381that we would stop doing something. So I do not know, for1382example, the analysis, do we have a contractor doing something1383for us that we could do internally? There are different things1384that went into, I think, some of the deliberations. But1385notwithstanding, as mentioned, we are committed to taking care1386of our veterans. If we did not get it right, we will definitely1387take a relook at it, and we will tap the focus on our veteran.13881389------------------------------------------------------------------------13901391-------------------------------------------------------------------------1392VA Response: Two contracts providing administrative support to the PACT1393 Act Enterprise Program Management Office (EPMO) were terminated. This1394 will not impact PACT Act benefits for Veterans, their families,1395 caregivers, and survivors.13961397The PACT Act EPMO was a 3-year term organization aimed at integrating1398 systems, resources, and policies within the VA to implement the PACT1399 Act. As we approach its conclusion in August 2025, essential1400 requirements have been integrated, with other aspects still being1401 operationalized. The EPMO will phase out in August, and designated1402 business owners will fully assume responsibility for their respective1403 efforts.1404------------------------------------------------------------------------14051406    Senator Gallego. My concern, again, is that we are1407treating, I think, the VA much like we treat other parts of the1408government, where there needs to be certain sensitivities.1409Right now I am hearing reports of men and women having to do1410their treatments and their PTSD therapy in cubicles, open-air1411cubicles, where essentially some of the therapists are told to1412get white noise and put ambient music in the background, while,1413obviously, next door someone could be listening to these1414veterans going through their therapy sessions.1415    As someone who has done PTSD therapy, you have to expose1416yourself. You have to really let yourself go in order for you1417to start real therapy. It is not going to be a really good1418environment when these men and women feel like they are not1419going to have a safe and secure environment to actually talk1420about what happened to them, what they are feeling, or anything1421else like that, if they are being forced to speak in this open-1422air cubicle. And this is part of the problem when you force1423people back to the office but there is not enough space for1424these men.1425    Do you understand, or have you heard of this problem,1426because I am actually hearing about this across the country1427now.1428    Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, if there are any specific issues, I1429am happy to look at them, as far as our veterans' care. As far1430as back to the office, we do have a detailed plan in place. We1431are making sure, so for example, that there are extensions1432right now, pretty much a question if people do not have the1433space to put people back. What we do know is that our clinical1434providers have been showing up day in and day out, for years.1435But mostly the support staff, the administration, they have not1436been. There are some jobs that lend themselves to actually1437being remote and we can better support, but the vast majority,1438we work better together. We work better together. We1439collaborate. We are part of a team. You develop esprit, just1440like in the Army or wherever you were at. You are part of1441something. You are part of a mission.1442    So we firmly believe that we are more effective, more1443efficient, and better, for the most part, when we work together1444and we call people back in. Like I said, our providers are1445there on the front lines every day. We owe it to them to be1446there to support them, as well.1447    Senator Gallego. Without a doubt. I just worry about the1448situation where you are putting some of these men and women in1449a compromised situation, because we are trying to overall1450create a policy that might have some merit to it, but then is1451creating this system where, again, it is not conducive to PTSD1452therapy.1453    Mr. Engelbaum. We will definitely take that into1454consideration, Senator. Thank you.1455    Senator Gallego. I yield back, Chairman.1456    Chairman Moran. Senator Sanders.14571458                     HON. BERNARD SANDERS,1459                   U.S. SENATOR FROM VERMONT14601461    Senator Sanders. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you all1462for being here today. Mr. Chairman, my understanding is that in1463the fourth quarter of 2024, there were over 30,000 vacancies at1464the VA, including 3,400 schedulers, 1,200 custodians, 1,8001465social workers, 2,400 doctors, 6,300 registered nurses. I heard1466Mr. Engelbaum say, appropriately enough, that he wanted to do a1467detailed and thoughtful review of the whole process.1468    Do you think arbitrarily laying off 2,500 workers and1469planning to lay off another 83,000 is a detailed and thoughtful1470review?1471    Mr. Engelbaum. Senator, thank you. As mentioned, the1472initial thing that hit the news about the planning factor is to1473lead and to force people to make hard decisions and1474recommendations. We are in the process. I will come and brief1475the Committee, sir, at your disposal, on how we are doing that1476over the next three to four months, and what we are going to1477review to make sure that we tailor the mission and the people.1478    Senator Sanders. But if we already have--and I should tell1479you, and I think Mr. Montoya knows it. He is familiar with our1480part of the world.1481    Mr. Engelbaum. Yes, sir.1482    Senator Sanders. In White River Junction, we have a very1483well-functioning VA. I go around the state a lot. I talk to1484veterans, and they are very proud of what is going on there. I1485do not think any veteran in this country thinks that it makes1486sense, at a time when we already have a significant shortage of1487workers, to arbitrarily lay off 2,500 and threaten to lay off1488another 83,000.1489    Now, Mr. Chairman, as I think you are aware--Mr. Chairman?1490Mr. Chairman? The VFW, Veterans of Foreign Wars, just stated1491the other day, and I quote part of what their statement was,1492``We now call upon VA to reconsider its planned reduction of149383,000 employees and thoroughly review any proposed cuts prior1494to rolling out further announcement like this,'' end quote.1495    Mr. Chairman, I am going to introduce a resolution1496supporting the VFW. I would hope that you can support that. All1497that they are saying, which makes common sense to me, if you1498want to make the VA more efficient, let's do it. You are right.1499Is there bureaucracy? Yep. Let's deal with that. But do it an1500intelligent plan, with the cooperation of the veterans1501organizations who are on the ground, who better can come to1502tell you that you have people who are not working well. All1503right? But to arbitrarily say, hey, we are going to lay off150483,000 people, that makes sense to nobody.1505    On a more provincial point of view--so, Mr. Chairman, I am1506going to work, and I would hope that we could have bipartisan1507support here. We are simply saying, to quote Mr. Engelbaum,1508``let's go forward in a detailed and thoughtful process.'' Work1509with us. All right.1510    Do you believe that health care is a right for every1511veteran in this country?1512    Mr. Engelbaum. Absolutely. I appreciate that.1513    Senator Sanders. Okay. That is fine. I agree with you. Do1514you think we should do a better job in reaching out? One of the1515problems I have been working on for years, with some success,1516is letting veterans know about the benefits to which they are1517legally entitled. I am not sure we do as good a job on that as1518we should. Do you think we should do a better job in that area?1519    Mr. Engelbaum. I will turn it over. I know it is very, very1520important to do so. I know we have made strides. I am not sure1521there is anybody here that can really--do you want to address1522that? But I always think we could always do better, Senator.1523    Senator Sanders. I recall--Excuse me. I do not have a lot1524of time. I apologize. But doing a town meeting in Bennington,1525Vermont, about the prescription drug benefits the veterans are1526entitled to. A lot of veterans did not even know that.1527    But my point is, if you believe that every veteran--and I1528am hearing you say that--is entitled to the health care that we1529have provided them, if you are going to do aggressive1530outreach--am I hearing you say that? Okay.--you are going to1531need more staff, not less, to take care of our veterans.1532    All right. On a provincial note, we are on the list,1533whatever that may mean, in Vermont to get two new state-of-the-1534art CBOCs. One is in Chittenden County, and I do not know if1535anybody is familiar with that. Ms. Cohen, are you familiar with1536that? No, okay. Mr. Montoya, are you familiar with that?1537    Mr. Montoya. Very much so, sir.1538    Senator Sanders. Okay. Could you help me out here? We have1539two on the list, one in Chittenden County, one probably in the1540Keene area, in New Hampshire, which Vermonters in the southern1541part of the state can utilize. Can you give me a status report1542on that, sir?1543    Mr. Montoya. Yes, so I know, sir, I do not have it but I1544will get it for the record for you and talk with your staff1545members, as well. But I think this is one that is very1546important to our veterans in Vermont and New Hampshire, to make1547sure that they get the care.1548    Last I had on that is that they were going through the1549acquisition process, but I want to be very detailed in my1550response to you.1551    Senator Sanders. All right. Will you get back to me on1552that?1553    Mr. Montoya. Absolutely.1554    Senator Sanders. I will give you a ring.1555    Mr. Montoya. A hundred percent.15561557------------------------------------------------------------------------15581559-------------------------------------------------------------------------1560VA Response: The two Community Based Outpatient Clinics--one in1561 Chittenden County (Burlington, Vermont) and one in Keene, New1562 Hampshire--are in solicitation. However, we do not have a timeline for1563 completion.1564------------------------------------------------------------------------15651566    Senator Sanders. All right. Look, the bottom line is this1567is not complicated. I do not think there is anybody who does1568not think there is too much bureaucracy at the VA. I assume1569everybody wants to make it more efficient. I assume everybody1570wants it do its best for veterans. I assume we all want1571veterans to be able to take advantage of the programs that1572Congress has passed to help them. You do not do it by1573arbitrarily laying off tens of thousands. You do it by working1574with the veterans organizations, by working with this1575Committee.1576    Mr. Engelbaum, is there anything I have said that you1577disagree with?1578    Mr. Engelbaum. No, Senator. I am looking forward to working1579with the Committee, and I met some of the Representatives1580behind me right before the meeting and invited them for some1581conversations, and I look forward to discussions and working1582together to better support our veterans.1583    Senator Sanders. Thank you.1584    Chairman Moran. Senator Blumenthal has another follow up,1585or a request, in which I will recognize him, and then I am1586going to have my follow up, and then we will change panels. And1587we are going to recess at that point in time in which we1588change, so that both Senator Blumenthal and I can hear the1589witnesses in the second panel. But we have an 11:45 vote, so we1590will run over to vote, come back, and we will restart. Senator1591Blumenthal.1592    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you. For the record, Mr.1593Engelbaum, I just want to expand on the number that was given1594to you by Senator Sanders. As of the end of fiscal year 2024,1595there were 36,000 vacancies in veterans' health care, there1596were 2,751 in the VBA. And by the way, those health care1597positions, they were 1,800 social workers, 693 psychologists,15982,092 doctors, 6,300 registered nurses, 3,400 health care1599schedulers, and 1,200 custodians. Every single one of those1600positions, vital to veterans health care.1601    So I would suggest, respectfully, that rather than focusing1602on how to fire VA health care workers, which is what the1603RESTORE Act seems to do and what Elon Musk and Donald Trump are1604doing through Secretary Collins, that you would be better off1605trying to figure out how to recruit to fill those positions.1606What you are doing right now is going to discourage and deter1607anybody who wants to be in the health care professional field1608from joining the VA. Why would they, when your focus is on1609firing them?1610    Let me also give you an opportunity to correct the record.1611I think you contended that VBA claims processing times have1612gone up since the PACT Act. That is untrue. The average number1613of days to complete a pre-PACT Act claim were 166. The average1614number of days to complete a claim in January 2025, after1615passage of the PACT Act, is 148.1616    So actually, when you say we can do better, we will do1617better, you were doing better. You were doing better. And now1618you are going to do worse.1619    So again, to adopt the analogy that I had before, you are1620sinking the ship basically, and we are talking here about1621rearranging the chairs on the deck of that sinking ship. Call1622it the Titanic or whatever you wish. But we do need bipartisan1623cooperation to stop the bleeding, as the VFW commander in chief1624told us.1625    Finally, I just want to say, I was remiss in not1626specifically mentioning before, but we have worked with the1627professionals who are before us here. I know that you intend to1628do good things with the VA. I have worked with Al Montoya, for1629example, in Connecticut. And we want to empower you. I know it1630is difficult within the VA. But there are thousands and1631thousands of dedicated VA workers right now. They deserve to be1632elevated, not trashed or denigrated, as Elon Musk and Donald1633Trump are doing. Our veterans are not suckers. They are our1634heroes.1635    I thank you, Mr. Chairman.1636    Chairman Moran. Thank you, Senator Blumenthal.1637    Just a couple of thoughts and a question from me. First,1638Senator Blumenthal, while I do not think he was diminishing the1639value of the RESTORE Act overly, but I want to respond.1640    The Restore VA Accountability Act is about providing the1641best care and quality opportunities for veterans. I think it1642has a side benefit. It is great to work, it is better to work1643in a place in which you do not allow people who misbehave,1644commit fraud, negligent to the patient, to continue to work1645there, or to just move them to another position as the VA has1646done. And I am committed to trying to make sure that the1647Restore Act is something we accomplish. It was overwhelmingly1648supported in a bipartisan way in the past. It ran into legal1649and regulatory kind of challenges. And we need to work to make1650sure we get the law right.1651    But eliminating people, at any agency, that misbehave is a1652good thing for the customers they serve and a good thing for1653the people they work with.1654    A couple of my colleagues mentioned the inspector general.1655Both Republican and Democrat colleagues mentioned the use of1656the inspector general. I would add, for a second time, my1657public voice to the importance of restoring an inspector1658general to the Department of Veterans Affairs. And as we try to1659figure out how to right-size the VA, the inspector general has1660been our ally in finding ways to do things better or things1661that happen at the VA that make no sense, are inefficient, and1662inspector general is hugely important to the efforts that you1663indicate you are trying to accomplish. So I just highlight1664again the value of an inspector general.1665    And we also, we, the majority, but we, as the Chairman of1666the Committee, have requested information from the Department1667of Veterans Affairs. Some of it has been answered and other1668components of our inquiries, some of the things you heard from1669particularly the minority, the Democratic side of our1670Committee, we are asking for that kind of information too, and1671I highlight that for you to return to the VA to encourage the1672answering of Members of Congress' questions. And that only1673reiterates my view that this Committee will and should have1674significant opportunities to participate in the decision-making1675process about workforce at the VA.1676    And finally, Mr. Engelbaum, you have tried several times to1677finish a sentence that I think is important, at least you think1678it is important because you tried to say it a number of times,1679and it has to do with the 83,000, or the 80,000. I think you1680have tried to explain that is not necessarily the goal. And1681that was certainly reported in press, and maybe was in a memo1682at the VA, so I am not discounting it. Somebody may have come1683up with this number.1684    But what is your goal in regard to--I am going to ask you1685this question. Is it conceivable you would have the analysis1686done at the VA and determine that in certain areas you need1687more employees, not less? And is the goal to figure out how to1688get rid of 80,000, or is it a different goal?1689    Mr. Engelbaum. It is the former, Senator. Obviously, we1690want to be efficient, and we want to be lean. As I was trying1691to get across, you have to start with something when you start1692with the planning process. When we are talking about the1693return, we are talking about a 15 percent is what we are1694looking at when you are talking about over 470,000. And I will1695be very clear, and I think the Secretary would be very clear on1696this. We are going to do our review, we are going to let the1697process fall out, and ultimately he will make a decision what1698the final number would be, based upon that analysis that we are1699conducting.1700    As you rightly said, we may, and we probably should, plus1701up in other areas. We will take down other areas. We will also1702look at what we are going to stop doing, as far as specific1703mission, and as I mentioned, flatlining bureaucracies. Numerous1704things that we want to take a look at. But if you do not start1705with a goal, or start with some sort of planning factor,1706aggressive planning factor to force people to think, and think1707outside the box, and come up with options, then you are going1708to go nowhere.1709    And so that is what really that is. That goal, that1710planning factor enables us to start our in-depth analysis,1711bottom-up review that we are conducting with the entirety of1712the VA chain of command, in order to arrive at a recommendation1713for the Secretary later on this year.1714    Chairman Moran. I wanted to give you the opportunity to1715finish your sentence or your thoughts, your paragraph. I, too,1716have indicated my concern with a number. The goal ought not be1717a number. The goal ought to be to determine what the mission of1718the Department of Veterans Affairs is, and how many people in1719the workforce it takes to accomplish that mission in an1720effective and efficient way. And that, I think, Members of this1721Committee are seemingly willing to help the VA accomplish. The172280,000 number has really created the uncertainty, the1723difficulty, the criticism that comes from those statements.1724    So we look forward to answers to our questions, and we look1725forward to working to figuring out how to right-size the1726Department of Veterans Affairs, but not in an arbitrary way.1727And I thank you, and if you report that to your superiors--and1728that is a poor word in today's world--if you would report that1729to your colleagues, and particularly see about getting us1730answers to our previous questions.1731    Mr. Engelbaum. Absolutely, Senator.1732    Chairman Moran. Thank you very much. We are going to recess1733so that Senator Blumenthal and I can walk across the street and1734vote. And the second panel, you are welcome to stay in your1735seats or take maybe the thing so we are ready when we come1736back, that you will be ready to take your chairs where these1737witnesses are now seated.1738    Thank you for your testimony, and thank you for your1739presence.17401741    [Recess.]1742    Chairman Moran. Hello. Thank you for your patience. The1743Committee will come back to order.1744    I want to ask unanimous consent to add to today's hearing1745record letters of support for the Veterans 2nd Amendment1746Protection Act from the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United1747States, the National Disability Rights Network, Vietnam1748Veterans of America, Black Veterans Empowerment Council, Gun1749Owners of America, Military Order of the Purple Heart, National1750Shooting Sports Federation, Firearms Regulatory Accountability1751Council, AMAC Action--Association of Mature American Citizens,1752and the Turning Point Action.1753    Hearing no objection, specifying the appropriate time to1754ask that request, it is so ordered.17551756    [The letters of support appear on pages 175-190 of the1757Appendix.]17581759    Chairman Moran. I now welcome our second panel, witnesses1760at the table. Testifying is Cole Lyle, Director of Veterans'1761Affairs and Rehabilitation Division for the American Legion;1762Ashlynne Haycock-Lohmann, the Director of Government and1763Legislative Affairs for the Tragedy Assistance Program for1764Survivors, TAP; and Patrick Murray, the Director of National1765Legislative Service for the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the1766United States. People we are all familiar with. Thank you for1767your continued education of our Committee.1768    And let me yield now to Mr. Lyle.17691770                            PANEL II17711772                              ----------17731774    STATEMENT OF COLE LYLE, DIRECTOR, VETERANS' AFFAIRS AND1775          REHABILITATION DIVISION, THE AMERICAN LEGION17761777    Mr. Lyle. Thank you, Chairman Moran, distinguished Members1778of the Committee. On behalf of National Commander Jim1779LaCoursiere, Jr., and more than 1.6 million dues-paying members1780of the American Legion, we thank you for the opportunity to1781offer our testimony for the record on pending legislation.1782    In good faith, we cannot consider these proposals today1783without recognizing the implementation elephant in the room,1784considering costs and staff demands of these bills with recent1785policy and personnel actions. It is vital to acknowledge this1786hearing comes at a time of uncertainty and widespread change.1787    I want to be clear, the American Legion has never shied1788away from the responsibility of being a voice for veterans, and1789we will not start now. To veterans listening, the Legion exists1790for you. The VA exists for you. And we will continue to1791advocate for an effective VA on your behalf.1792    On March 6, 2025, Commander LaCoursiere released a1793statement expressing this sentiment and invited veterans to1794share how these changes are impacting their lives. As of today,1795we have received over 4,200 comments, and we look forward to1796sharing the results with the Committee and will certainly flag1797any mission-critical impacts we identify.1798    The American Legion supports many of the bills being1799discussed today, having been drafted because of veteran1800experience across the country. They are the results of1801collaboration between the VSOs, Committee staff, and the VA. We1802all have different jobs, but the same goal: to improve the1803lives of servicemembers, veterans, and their families.1804    All of these bills are worthy of continued discussion, but1805the big challenge will be forecasting how their implementation1806will, if passed, be successful. The recent policy and personnel1807actions make it more important than ever for veterans service1808organizations to be a part of the legislative and regulatory1809process, and we look forward to this Committee's inclusion of1810Legionnaires' voices. The American Legion has spoken with1811Secretary Collins, senior VA personnel, and Legionnaires on the1812ground about the need for more transparency in the methodology1813of these changes and plans to mitigate potential impacts.1814    We believe the voice of our membership can provide crucial1815feedback to ensure no veteran goes without the care they need,1816when they need it, to provide veterans the care they have1817earned, keep veterans off the streets, and most importantly,1818keep them from spiraling into a critical mass of despair that1819drives them to make an irreversible decision.1820    This is the American Legion's number one priority for a1821reason. The values and habits the military instills do not1822disappear when we transition out. Eight percent of companies in1823the S&P 500 are led by CEOs who served; 9.1 percent of U.S.1824small businesses are veteran-owned, generating $1 trillion in1825annual receipts and employing 5 million Americans; 25 percent,1826roughly, of Federal employees are veterans, with more than half1827a million employed by agencies around the world. Further,1828according to the Department of Labor, veterans make up 101829percent of emergency medical technicians, 19 percent of1830firefighters, and 25 percent of police officers.1831    Veterans have shown a willingness to donate their time and1832money to aid disaster relief, mentorship, and other community-1833based programs. In short, whether in public service, the1834private sector, or volunteerism, veterans continue to display1835unwavering dedication to their families, communities, states,1836and indeed the country, long after they leave the service.1837    Cultivated during service, a veteran's unique set of skills1838continues to pay tangible dividends to the American people. But1839perhaps more importantly, servicemembers experience shared1840adversity in pursuit of common goals from the moment they1841arrive at boot camp to the day they get out, learning to work1842together regardless of race, religion, or socioeconomic1843background. They are bound together by an esprit de corps that1844sheds preconceived notions and biases, forcing them to work as1845a team.1846    Without the ability to look beyond our differences and work1847together, the U.S. military would crumble. Government leaders1848from both sides of the aisle would do well to emulate this1849mentality, honoring the service of our Nation's veterans to1850ensure they continue thriving. America will undoubtedly be1851better for it.1852    Chairman Moran, Ranking Member Blumenthal, for the sake of1853time, more detailed and thorough responses can be found within1854our written testimony, and I look forward to your questions.18551856    [The prepared statement of Mr. Lyle appears on pages 103-1857121 of the Appendix.]18581859    Chairman Moran. Mr. Lyle, thank you very much. Ms. Haycock-1860Lohmann, you are recognized. Thank you.18611862STATEMENT OF ASHLYNNE HAYCOCK-LOHMANN, DIRECTOR, GOVERNMENT AND1863 LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS, TRAGEDY ASSISTANCE PROGRAM FOR SURVIVORS18641865    Ms. Haycock-Lohmann. Thank you. Chairman Moran, Ranking1866Member Blumenthal, and distinguished Committee members, the1867Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors is grateful for the1868opportunity to testify today on behalf of the more than 120,0001869surviving families TAPS is honored to serve.1870    TAPS strongly supports the Love Lives On Act, and we thank1871Chairman Moran, Senator Warnock, and our 22 original co-1872sponsors for reintroducing one of our top legislative1873priorities. Under current law, surviving spouses must wait1874until the age of 55 to remarry or they lose most of their1875benefits.1876    The average of the surviving spouse in this era is between187725 and 35 years old, forcing them to wait decades to remarry1878and retain their benefits. Just over 500,000 surviving spouses1879receive benefits through the VA, but barely 35,000 of them are1880under the age of 55. That is less than 7 percent. Of those188135,000 surviving spouses, only 5 percent of them have chosen to1882legally remarry.1883    But this is more than just a numbers issue. The Love Lives1884On Act is equally about keeping our promise to our veterans.1885When a servicemember takes the oath of office, they are making1886the ultimate commitment, signing a blank check that is payable1887with their very life. In return, our government makes an1888unbreakable promise that if something happens to them due to1889that service, their spouse and children will be taken care of.1890Period. There was never a caveat that the commitment would end1891because their spouse chose to find happiness again. Honor and1892sacrifice do not come with an expiration date, and neither1893should our Nation's support. This is deeply personal to every1894single widow and widower who has accepted a folded flag.1895    This impacts survivors like Marcie, from Kansas, who is1896waiting to remarry but was expelled from her church for living1897with her fiance, forcing her to choose between financial1898stability and rebuilding her life.1899    This impacts survivors like Kaanan, from Louisiana, who did1900remarry because she wanted her five children to know that she1901chose love over money, but is now viewed as her children's1902fiduciary, not their parent, in the eyes of the law.1903    This impacts survivors like Rebecca, from North Carolina,1904who never had the chance to start a family with her late1905husband but chose to remarry because the sanctity of marriage1906and having her son in wedlock mattered to her.1907    This impacts survivors like Linda, from Texas, who1908remarried after 55, and is allowed to keep her benefits.1909    These are surviving spouses who have lived through the1910unimaginable loss of their soulmate, and are choosing a chance1911at happiness. They are more than just data points. All they are1912asking for is the right to choose how they move forward and1913pick up the broken pieces of their lives.1914    TAPS strongly supports the Caring for Survivors Act, and1915thanks Ranking Member Blumenthal and Senator Boozman for1916reintroducing this important bill. Raising DIC to 55 percent of1917the compensation rate paid to 100 percent disabled veterans1918will increase DIC by an average of $454 per month and provide1919long-overdue parity with other Federal survivor benefits.1920    More than half a million survivors receive DIC from the VA.1921The current monthly base rate is $1,653, but has only been1922increased by COLA since 1993. As surviving spouse of Kansas,1923Katie Hubbard, states, ``Increasing DIC would allow me to1924afford groceries and childcare, medical expenses, and home and1925car maintenance while just trying to survive.''1926    It is time we fixed this inequity. Our nation's surviving1927families should not be receiving less than their civilian1928counterparts.1929    TAPS strongly supports the Veterans Claims Act, and thanks1930Senator Boozman for his leadership on this critical issue.1931Since the passage of the PACT Act, TAPS has seen an influx of1932predatory claims consultants targeting survivors. With over193330,000 additional survivors now eligible for benefits,1934increased regulatory oversight is crucial to ensuring that1935these survivors receive adequate representation throughout the1936VA claims process.1937    TAPS is not an accredited veterans service organization1938because current regulations require VSOs to serve any veteran1939or survivor who requests their assistance. Instead, TAPS'1940mission is dedicated to supporting all those who lost a loved1941one due to military service, and we would be honored to become1942accredited and make the process easier for them. But to be1943clear, TAPS has never, and will never, charge for our services.1944    As the leading voice for the families of those who died as1945a result of illness connected to toxic exposure, TAPS led1946efforts to pass the bipartisan PACT Act, but we know that work1947is far from done. TAPS strongly supports the Aviation Cancers1948Examination Study Act and thanks Senators Cotton and Kelly for1949reintroducing this critical legislation to address the1950prevalence and mortality of cancer among the military aviation1951community.1952    Finally, TAPS would like to express our support for the1953Veterans Assuring Critical Care Expansion to Support1954Servicemembers Act, and the VA Accountability and Whistleblower1955Protection Act. We thank you, Chairman Moran, for your1956leadership on both of these important issues.1957    TAPS appreciates the opportunity to testify today, and I1958look forward to your questions.19591960    [The prepared statement of Ms. Haycock-Lohmann appears on1961pages 122-145 of the Appendix.]19621963    Chairman Moran. Thank you very much. Mr. Murray.19641965  STATEMENT OF PATRICK MURRAY, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL LEGISLATIVE1966     SERVICE, VETERANS OF FOREIGN WARS OF THE UNITED STATES19671968    Mr. Murray. Chairman Moran, Ranking Member Blumenthal, and1969Members of the Committee, on behalf of the men and women of the1970VFW and its Auxiliary, I would like to thank you for the1971opportunity to speak on these subjects.1972    On accountability, the VFW fully agrees the Secretary of1973Veterans Affairs should have the ability to remove bad1974employees from their roles. However, we do not want to see its1975authority used to arbitrarily remove competent and capable1976employees simply as a cost-cutting measure. Reduction-in-force1977efforts should not be bluntly used to satisfy an arbitrary1978budget goal. VA should always be fully staffed with competent1979and capable employees to serve the men and women who have1980earned their health care and benefits.1981    VA has recently dismissed more than 2,400 employees.1982Nowhere in these messages did these actions explain what1983warranted them. Members on this Committee regularly say VA1984needs to weed out the bad actors, but the dismissal of these1985employees was not done because it was warranted, instead, it1986was done because it was easy. Before this Committee advances1987this bill, we believe there should be proper oversight to1988ensure the men and women who serve our veterans, caregivers,1989and survivors are not being arbitrarily removed from their1990crucial roles.1991    The VFW supports the ACCESS Act, which would provide1992overall enhancements to the VA Community Care Program. Since1993the passage of the MISSION Act, VA has not implemented this1994program consistently across this entire network. Veterans1995deserve consistency in their care, and this is a good step1996toward providing that. While this proposal does not address VA1997direct care, we would be remiss not to remind this Committee1998that some of the reasons community care appointments and costs1999are increasing is because VA cannot provide some of these vital2000services. Care in the community is VA care, but providing2001resources for care only in the community and not also for VA2002direct care can lead to a less capable VA, which could be2003detrimental.2004    VA direct care and community care can complement each other2005to provide a full suite of services for veterans. Often, CCN is2006used to relieve the burden of care, but providing additional2007resources to only one side of that will exacerbate these2008problems. We urge this Committee to fund community care2009improvements but also continue to improve the direct care, so2010this ``pressure relief valve'' is not overused.2011    The VFW supports the draft bill, VA Claims Act of 2025, as2012written. We appreciate the Committee's efforts to provide a2013compromise that provides necessary protections and allows for2014the expansion of accreditation to certain individuals who seek2015to provide claims assistance per a reasonable fee. This bill2016provides necessary guardrails for claims preparation and2017preserves veterans' choice when seeking a reasonable, free2018market alternative to the current process.2019    The VFW has expressed our red lines regarding any2020comprehensive bill put forth seeking our support. Veterans2021should not have to pay future benefits. Active-duty2022servicemembers should not have to pay for claims assistance2023prior to transition. And no one who prepares a claim should2024have any financial affiliation with medical examiners who could2025possibly affect the outcome of that claim. We believe these are2026commonsense concerns that we insist be in any bill that is2027advanced, and we are grateful the Committee has listened to our2028feedback and produced that exact bill.2029    To the VFW, this has never been about money. Accredited2030agents and attorneys can make a healthy living operating within2031the ethical confines of the established non-predatory fee2032structure.2033    When payment comes from retroactive benefits, it is hard to2034consider predatory since the veteran is guaranteed to be able2035to settle that debt. Putting veterans in debt for accessing2036their earned benefits is wrong, and we are grateful this2037Committee agrees with that.2038    We would also recommend that this Committee consider a2039reasonable fee cap added to this structure. We do not have a2040specific amount to suggest. However, we would ask the Committee2041to consider the factors contained within 38 CFR when making2042that determination.2043    Chairman Moran and Ranking Member Blumenthal, this2044concludes my testimony. I am prepared to answer any questions2045you or the Members of the Committee may have.20462047    [The prepared statement of Mr. Murray appears on pages 146-2048157 of the Appendix.]20492050    Chairman Moran. Thank you very much [audio interruption] in2051testifying before our Committee and following our work.2052    I have been working on key provisions of the ACCESS Act2053over two Congresses now, and I am particularly burdened by the2054VA's classification of mental health residential rehabilitation2055programs for veterans who require a higher level of mental2056health and addiction care. It is my view the VA should rely on2057the Commission for Accreditation and Rehabilitation Facilities2058and Joint Commission Accredited Programs in the community to2059deliver this critical care closer to veterans' homes and close2060to their support systems.2061    Could any or all of you describe for the Committee how this2062negatively is impacting veterans your organizations work with,2063and by this I mean the VA's positions or actions in regard to2064residential care for those services. Mr. Murray?2065    Mr. Murray. Mr. Chairman, my wife went through this2066program. About a couple of years ago she was trying to get into2067one of these facilities that she found on her own, that2068provided the exact care that she was looking for. Three2069different times she was referred. Three different times those2070referrals were rescinded. They tried to send her to VA2071facilities that did not offer the services they wanted. They2072were all-male facilities, or they were for substance abuse, but2073that is not what she was looking for, or they were for eating2074disorders, but that is not what she was looking for. She found2075the one, but it was outside of Optum's third-party2076administrator network, so it got denied again.2077    RRTPs, are, we believe, something that can actually save2078lives. When veterans reach out and ask for that help, they2079cannot get turned away because they might not come back again.2080That is why these improvements are very important.2081    Chairman Moran. Thank you for your answer to your question2082and your personal experience relayed to us. Again, I have been2083broadly interested in community care for a long time, but this2084particular issue strikes me as one in which it is life and2085death. And we have heard and seen, in testimony after2086testimony, and stories related to me by veterans and their2087families, how important it is for that residential treatment2088facility, and yet the VA is unwilling to provide that.2089    Either of you want to say anything more about that, or have2090we got it covered?2091    Mr. Lyle. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would just echo Pat's2092comments and yours, that this is a crucial piece of the ACCESS2093Act that will save lives.2094    Chairman Moran. Thank you. Ashlynne?2095    Ms. Haycock-Lohmann. I would also add that these are2096lifesaving measures, that TAPS sees a very large number of2097survivors who come to us that lost their loved one to suicide.2098My mother is an Air Force veteran who died by suicide when I2099was in college. But we were under the TRICARE system, and when2100she wanted mental health treatment, she was able to get2101inpatient fairly easily, even if it was outside of the official2102providers through DoD. Of course, it did not, unfortunately,2103save her life, but she was able to get that access that she2104needed, when she asked for it. And we know that it is a very2105different system for our veterans, and ensuring that they have2106access to that means that more families are not coming to us,2107and we do not ever want to have another family need to come to2108TAPS.2109    Chairman Moran. Thank you, all three of you.2110    Mr. Lyle, thanks to you for the American Legion's support2111of the Veterans ACCESS Act. I appreciate your acknowledgement2112that failure to codify the existing community care standards,2113as a minimum access standard, leaves them vulnerable to changes2114that make it more difficult for veterans to understand their2115rights under the MISSION Act. And clearly in recent times it2116has been difficult, in too many instances, for veterans to be2117told that their capability of finding or pursuing care in the2118community. Under the MISSION Act, you indicate there is2119potential for adding inconsistency and the VA staff working on2120the program.2121    So I just wanted you to elaborate a minute about how2122codifying the access standards benefit veterans and make it2123easier for VA staff to understand and deliver that care in the2124community.2125    Mr. Lyle. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You know, we have seen2126evidence since the MISSION Act passed, because it was2127regulatory and not codified in statute, that at the VISN and2128the local VAMC level, you are right, there is a wide variety of2129education efforts at those levels to inform veterans of their2130options, and even if they are informed, oftentimes veterans can2131get denied the referral or shortened on the authorization2132approved time for community care. And it is vital to codify2133these access standards so that the veterans' decision with2134their provider is the number one priority, and the veteran2135remains the center of what VA does.2136    Chairman Moran. Thank you. And Mr. Murray, I will not leave2137you out. The VFW seems especially strong in its support for the2138ACCESS Act. Again, I am pleased by that.2139    You have a story, though, in your written testimony about a2140VFW member who gave up on seeking residential care from the VA2141because the program this veteran needed was not in a VA2142network. If you want to provide our office with more2143information, we would be glad to be an advocate for that2144veteran.2145    Mr. Murray. That was my wife.2146    Chairman Moran. Oh, it is your wife. So it is the same2147story that you just described.2148    Mr. Murray. The same story. She was provided a referral to2149a facility that was, I think the first one was in Utah, in the2150VA network but under TriWest. We live in Maryland. It was2151denied. She worked with someone else at DC VA to get a referral2152to a facility I believe in either Arizona or New Mexico. Same2153story. Nowhere could we find anywhere where, in law, it said2154that.2155    We ended up trying to navigate the system and found2156somewhere in Pennsylvania, but that was after, as I mentioned,2157being referred to eating disorder clinics or substance abuse,2158or things like that, and that is not what she was looking for.2159    Chairman Moran. And part of the reason this residential2160programming is so important is for the location to be2161approximate to where the veteran, his or her family, his or her2162support system lives, and none of those places seem to close to2163Maryland, to me.2164    Mr. Murray. No, they were not. But what we learned about2165going through this is some of these facilities are secluded by2166design. You know, you do not want one right across the street2167here, next to Union Station. That is not the best environment2168for some of that healing.2169    Chairman Moran. There is a medical and a care reason that2170it is that way.2171    Mr. Murray. Yes. That is why when we talked about different2172access standards for the RRTPs, they should probably be thought2173about a little bit differently than the standard mental health,2174because they are designed to be away from population centers2175for the healing purposes. You know, the same drive time and2176wait time standards may not be apples to apples with that same2177type of mental health care.2178    Chairman Moran. I do not want my staff to hear this, but2179thank you for educating me in something I did not know. I am2180sure they told me and it did not register.2181    Finally, in this regard, the VFW recommends that the ACCESS2182Act be amended to prohibit barriers to accessing community2183programs, and I quote, ``available and commonly tailored to2184veterans,'' end quote. What are you telling us?2185    Mr. Murray. Mostly it is falling back to that story. We2186have heard from veterans who have tried to access, not just my2187wife but others, who have tried to access care, and are denied2188for seemingly arbitrary reasons. The standards are the2189standards. That is why we support codifying them. They have2190been the standard for half a dozen years. We want to make this2191as easily accessible to veterans as possible so there is2192transparency and they know. We believe that community care is a2193great supplement to VA care, when used consistently and2194appropriately.2195    Chairman Moran. Got it. Excuse me for asking the same2196question of the same facts three times. Senator Blumenthal.2197    Senator Blumenthal. Mr. Murray and all the members of the2198panel, thank you for your service. Mr. Murray, in particular, I2199understand that you are making a transition, and we will miss2200you here if, in fact, you will be going on to another chapter.2201But you have contributed immensely, and we thank you for your2202service on the VFW.2203    Just to follow up the question that you were just asked.2204Are you, or any of the others, in favor of substituting2205community care for VA health care, in other words, privatizing2206the VA?2207    Mr. Lyle. Thank you, Ranking Member Blumenthal. I think2208community care is VA care. VA pays for it. VA is supposed to2209coordinate it. It is a vital tool that the VA can use to ensure2210we do not have another wait-list scandal like we did in 2014 in2211Phoenix. There are certainly improvements to be made, I think2212particularly in scheduling. We hear from veterans they like the2213care that they receive at VA. Oftentimes it is a one-stop shop2214for them. They like the care they receive in the community.2215Oftentimes they are frustrated by the referral and scheduling2216process. So I think that is another reason the American Legion2217has supported the ACCESS Act, because it seeks--and a couple of2218these bills--because it seeks to improve that particular2219capability of the care coordination.2220    Senator Blumenthal. They are frustrated by delays in2221community care, just as they are in VA health care, and they2222should be given quicker care in both. Correct?2223    Mr. Lyle. You know, across the country there is a common2224saying we have all heard, I am sure, that you have been to one2225VA, you have been to one VA. There are experiences that vary.2226Some VAs have really good community care referral processes.2227Others do not. Some have the ability to absorb the demand in2228their catchment area. Others do not, and see a higher level of2229referrals into the community.2230    But you are absolutely correct. There are improvements to2231be made in both areas, and a lot of veterans are happy with2232both areas.2233    Senator Blumenthal. And they should be complementary.2234    Mr. Lyle. Absolutely.2235    Senator Blumenthal. Privatizing VA health care.2236    Mr. Lyle. It should serve as a relief----2237    Senator Blumenthal. Heads nodding, so I am going to take2238that as a yes.2239    Let me ask you. Have any of you or your organizations met2240with Secretary Collins about the plan to fire 80,000 or more VA2241workers?2242    Mr. Lyle. We have met with Secretary Collins. That was2243prior to the memo being released. But since that time we have2244been in contact with the Secretary's office.2245    Senator Blumenthal. You have been in contact?2246    Mr. Lyle. Yes, sir.2247    Senator Blumenthal. And what have you told him?2248    Mr. Lyle. We just requested that during this review2249process, before May--I understand that they are supposed to do2250their full internal review before May, publish a report in June2251that recommends the reduction-in-force by the end of the fiscal2252year--we absolutely wanted to have the Legionnaires' voices2253heard in that process, to ensure that there were no cuts in2254mission-critical capabilities for health care or benefits at2255the VA. So we expressed our desire to provide that feedback,2256and we are happy to work with this Committee on that issue.2257    Mr. Murray. Senator Blumenthal, we saw some of the impacts2258for the 2,400 that were dismissed in the past few weeks. We are2259concerned that 80-some thousand will also have impacts on care2260and benefits. We expressed that to the Secretary. He assured us2261that it will not, but we are skeptical, because of what we saw2262already.2263    We know that there are ways to improve this via technology,2264other ways to make improvements at VA. But there needs to be a2265plan in place first. As we heard in the first panel, they are2266going to develop a plan, but they already started letting2267people go. A plan should not be the fourth step in the process.2268It should probably be the first. That is what we want to see.2269We want to see transparency in this. We want to make sure that2270no decisions are being made that have unintended consequences.2271That is what we want to make sure of.2272    Senator Blumenthal. Ms. Haycock-Lohmann?2273    Ms. Haycock-Lohmann. We have not met with the Secretary2274yet.2275    Senator Blumenthal. You know, your Commander in Chief, Al2276Lipphardt, was probably the most powerful critic, I have heard,2277in his testimony, and your organization in its statements. Stop2278the bleeding. Use a scalpel to extract the shrapnel, as was2279done for Mr. Lipphardt when he was wounded in combat. Do not2280cut off the arm. That is what we are seeing here, a chainsaw2281cutting off the arm. I am asking both of your organizations, no2282matter how you talk to Secretary Collins, to be as vocal and2283vociferous as you possibly can be, because it is your voices2284and faces that will make the difference, not ours. We can be as2285vehement as can be, but at the end of the day it is our2286veterans who have to save VA health care, VA benefits, the PACT2287Act. And I am just telling it straight to you.2288    Mr. Lyle. Sir, if I may follow up real quick. In our2289opening remarks I wanted to highlight that our National2290Commander released a statement. That included a survey to allow2291Legionnaires and veterans, their families, to provide feedback2292on any impacts that may have occurred to them or their2293immediate family as a result of recent policy personnel2294actions. As of this morning, I think we received 4,200,2295approximately, responses, with a response rate of 60 percent2296said no impact, and the other 40 percent at least had minimal2297impact. And we are still in the process of sifting through that2298data. Some of it is hard to frankly tell if it is a result of2299normal VA issues versus this specific issue, but we are happy2300to follow up with you and provide that feedback.2301    Senator Blumenthal. I would appreciate your following up. I2302have not submitted my questionnaire yet, as a member of the2303Legion, but I will make a point of doing so. And let me just2304point out, these cuts are literally occurring in real time. It2305will be days, maybe weeks, before you see an impact. That New2306York Times story is capturing the initial impacts. Again, to2307analogize it to the combat wound suffered by Mr. Lipphardt,2308this is the point in the wound where it has just been inflicted2309and you have yet to see the shock, the bleeding, and the2310effects in real life, but they are occurring in real time.2311    So your questionnaire may fail to adequately capture the2312impact, not to mention the 80,000 who have not been fired yet.2313And so far as I can determine from you, and from the prior2314testimony, there is no plan. And Mr. Murray is absolutely2315right. It should be plan first, fire later, not fire first and2316aim later, plan later.2317    Let me ask each of you. I have described very briefly in2318outline form the legislation that I am introducing, Putting2319Veterans First. I do not know whether you were here when I2320outlined it, but I am going to ask for your reaction,2321essentially requiring that all veterans who have been fired2322from their Federal employment be restored to their positions,2323all veterans, regardless of the agency, and all VA employees,2324whether or not they are veterans, a standard for termination in2325the future that involves analysis of performance, not just2326taking the probationary workers and firing them. A standard and2327a process for appeal, mental health services, respect for2328spouses and survivors, and restore them, as well, to2329employment. I think that will be important to your2330organizations. Maybe you can give me some initial reactions.2331    Mr. Murray. Senator, we would be happy to take a look at2332that when you produce a draft for that, and we will follow up2333with your staff. But hopefully that will let us know who they2334actually let go and what they all did, so we can start talking2335about who needs to come back. That is part of the unknowns2336right now, who the employees were, what their roles were, and2337what they are looking at. That would be very helpful.2338    Ms. Haycock-Lohmann. I echo what Pat said. We really do2339want to take a look at it, but also figuring out if that gives2340us access to who was let go and what the impacts were, what2341agencies. That is the critical piece that we feel like we have2342been missing in this entire process. We hear numbers, but we2343are not seeing the exact data of what departments, what2344decisions, what agencies, what contracts were terminated, the2345things that we really need to see all of the information before2346making a decision on.2347    Senator Blumenthal. And I should make clear that the2348legislation will include military spouses and survivors.2349    Ms. Haycock-Lohmann. Fantastic. Thank you.2350    Mr. Lyle. Thank you, sir. First of all, I love the name,2351Putting Veterans First, but similar, we would have to review2352the legislation. We are a resolution-based organization, to2353ensure that we are aligned on that piece of legislation.2354    Senator Blumenthal. Well, I hope for your support, and2355equally, I hope for your constructive suggestions, if you think2356there are ways to improve it. We are trying to be as2357comprehensive as possible. There are a lot of different ideas2358floating around, a lot of different legislation with good-2359sounding names. We want this to be not just good sounding but2360effective.2361    And with that, Mr. Chairman, I would just like to ask, if2362there is no objection, that a series of letters from some of2363our labor organizations, partners like the Fraternal Order of2364Police, be submitted to the record.2365    Chairman Moran. Without objection.23662367    [The letters referred to appear on pages 172-174 of the2368Appendix.]23692370    Chairman Moran. Senator Blumenthal, anything else?2371    Senator Blumenthal. That is it.2372    Chairman Moran. I am going to ask one more question, and2373this time Ms. Haycock-Lohmann, a couple of questions. Thanks2374for the work you do. You are a surviving child yourself, and2375your work is important. I thank you for your help that you2376provided to me and Senator Warnock in getting pieces of the2377Love Lives On Act across the finish line last Congress.2378    Since its original introduction last Congress, can you talk2379about how many surviving spouses have come forward to speak2380about why this bill is needed, especially those that have2381previously been scared to speak out, or getting remarried for2382fear of being penalized.2383    Ms. Haycock-Lohmann. Yes. So passage of the Dole Act really2384was absolutely changing the way that survivors felt comfortable2385speaking about moving forward after their loss. One of the2386provisions in there, Section 303, basically stated that a2387surviving spouse was a spouse who had not remarried or held2388oneself out to be married, which was a very arbitrary clause2389that led to people turning them in for living with another2390person or sharing a joint bank account, or having a child out2391of wedlock. Anyone could have just turned them in for whatever2392reason, and unfortunately, VA's response to that is to2393essentially turn off their benefits and then open an2394investigation, where they sent people into your home and your2395community. They interview your employer, your children's2396teachers, your neighbors, and tell them you are being2397investigated for Federal fraud.2398    So they have so much fear about someone turning them in for2399no reason, despite the fact that they were living with a new2400significant other.2401    The passage of Section 303 in the Dole Act means that2402nobody is going to be living through these weird witch hunts2403ever again, and that they can at least be open about the2404relationship they are in, while we wait to pass the rest of the2405Love Lives On Act, and the provisions that, you know, we know2406so many more surviving spouses will chose remarriage once we2407pass more of the financial pieces.2408    But we were also hearing heavily from the surviving spouses2409who have remarried that are trying to use the education2410benefits now, that they are excited to get their military ID2411cards back in October, when that goes into effect.2412    So already such a huge impact on the community, and they2413are very excited to continue to work. And I am sure many of the2414congressional offices whose staff are in here have been on the2415receiving end of many emails about the importance of this,2416because we are hearing from thousands of survivors who are very2417active, very engaged, and are really excited to see the rest of2418this move, but grateful for all of the things we have already2419accomplished.2420    Chairman Moran. Would you point out, remind me, remind the2421Committee, why there has been pushback and concern that we have2422heard from some that if a survivor remarries they no longer,2423quote, ``need'' to receive certain benefits from the VA and2424DoD, since their so-called contract with the government has2425been fulfilled. Who says those kinds of things, and what is the2426consequence?2427    Ms. Haycock-Lohmann. The pushback has primarily been from2428the Armed Services Committee. They seem to not agree2429necessarily with the amazing work you guys have done over here.2430That has just been. I am not quite sure why they feel that way,2431but the part that they are missing is that surviving spouses2432are military spouses first. You know, we talk so much,2433extensively, about military spouse under- and unemployment. It2434is one of the biggest problems in the military community. It2435impacts recruitment and retention. And surviving spouses were2436military spouses first.2437    So they are making that transition. They have now lost2438their spouse. Many of them have young children that they have2439to raise. They do not have an established career. And then all2440of a sudden they are starting over at 40, 45 years old, after2441raising their children, in an entry-level career. They view2442that military retirement as the family's retirement. Most2443military spouses will never invest in their own retirement, and2444that goes the same for surviving spouses. Survivor benefit2445plan, in particular, over at DoD is a purchased annuity, in2446most cases. So this is something the family bought into but we2447are breaking our promise by saying yes, you bought this2448program, but we are not going to let you keep that benefit.2449    Chairman Moran. You heard me question the Department of2450Veterans Affairs officials about the slowness and then the debt2451collection. Anything you want me to know why that should2452matter, why that is a valid question?2453    Ms. Haycock-Lohmann. The biggest problem that we see there2454is that a surviving spouse, when they remarry and turn in that2455paperwork, believes that if they have turned the paperwork in,2456they have done their due diligence. We know that survivors tend2457to be uneducated on their own benefits, especially if they have2458children in the home and there are portions that are the2459spouse's portion, the children's portion. It is all comingled.2460And so they believe if they turn in their paperwork that the VA2461will stop their portion of the benefits, and whatever continues2462to be sent to them is their children's portion.2463    They do not ask the right questions because they trust that2464the VA has done the right thing in that regard. And then, all2465of a sudden, they get these debt letters, stating, ``We never2466processed your paperwork,'' or ``It took us two years to2467process your paperwork,'' or ``You never notified us,'' and2468that they are wanting that money back. But what it comes down2469to, they trust that the VA, if they turn their paperwork in to2470the VA, they have done the right thing, and then they get these2471huge debt checks, because they do go back into the queue. There2472is not a button somebody pushes, okay, they remarried--click.2473It goes back into being processed, and it can take months and2474years. We have seen cases take three to four years, where the2475survivors have had to fight to get them to turn it off. And2476oftentimes they do not have the money to immediately repay2477those benefits.2478    Chairman Moran. Senator Blumenthal, for your final2479question.2480    Senator Blumenthal. Yes, I do not have a question. I just2481have a thanks, again, to each of you. I neglected, Mr. Lyle, to2482mention my thanks for your work on military working dogs,2483service dogs, which has been exemplary and very important to2484the Committee and to me, personally. We still have work to do.2485    And Ms. Haycock-Lohmann, you have been at this advocacy for2486quite a number of years after losing your parents, who I know2487are still very much in your memory. But the issue of veteran2488suicide still needs to be addressed, and I know you are2489continuing that advocacy.2490    And again, to Mr. Murray, my thanks to you for your2491longstanding service.2492    I want to thank the VA, members of the previous panel, who2493have stayed. Mr. Engelbaum, thank you for remaining. I want the2494record to reflect that he and Mr. Montoya and others have2495stayed to listen to you, and I hope that they will listen to2496our veterans. And again, I hope our veterans will be vocal in2497their advocacy. Thank you.2498    Chairman Moran. Senator Blumenthal, thank you. There are no2499other questions, so I want to once again, as Senator Blumenthal2500did, thank our witnesses, in this case our second panel of2501witnesses, the three of you, and for our audience and their2502presence here, as well. It is always nice to see the VA2503witnesses stay to hear the next panel that follows them.2504    And I, too, want to express my gratitude and thank you to2505Patrick Murray for his significant contribution to the VFW, and2506more broadly to veterans across the country. I hold veterans--I2507do not know what the level you can have, but the highest regard2508for people who served our country. And maybe there is just a2509slight increase in that respect for veterans who serve other2510veterans. And there is absolutely no question that you, in your2511career, and the things that you have been doing for the VFW2512have been hugely valuable to me and my team, but more2513importantly, hugely valued to your comrades in arms. And just2514great gratitude and best wishes as the next step occurs.2515    Senator Blumenthal. Semper Fi.2516    Chairman Moran. Senator Blumenthal never--yes, that is a2517good idea.2518    [Applause.]2519    Chairman Moran. I had this contest with the Senator from2520Montana, Senator Tester, about who always got the last word in,2521and Senator Blumenthal, unfortunately, has picked up this2522habit. It is me.2523    [Laughter.]2524    Senator Blumenthal. You have just gotten the last word.2525    [Laughter.]2526    Chairman Moran. Well, not if you keep saying that.2527    So again, while we move to lighter things, I do not want2528that to take away from the seriousness of the compliment and2529the seriousness of the best wishes and the gratitude that was2530expressed by everybody in this room. You represent a very2531important and valuable ally for veterans and for this2532Committee, and thank you for your service.2533    The Committee--well, let me say a few other things.2534    Chairman Moran. I look forward to working with my2535colleagues in the VSO community and the VA as we try to move2536these bills forward. Senators who would like to submit2537questions for the record to today's witnesses, or make an2538additional statement, have a week to do so. And our witnesses,2539please we would ask you to respond to those questions from my2540colleagues in a very timely manner.2541    This is the first legislative hearing we have had in the2542new Administration, but we have had lots of challenges over a2543long period of time in getting quick responses to our2544colleagues and to our requests from our staff. So another thing2545you can take to the VA, we would appreciate timely action on2546the part of the Department.2547    With that, this hearing is adjourned.2548    [Whereupon, at 1:04 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]25492550                            A P P E N D I X25512552                             Hearing Agenda25532554[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]25552556                          Prepared Statements25572558[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]25592560                       Submissions for the Record25612562[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]25632564                        Questions for the Record25652566[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]25672568                       Statements for the Record25692570[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]25712572                                  [all]