S.Hrg.119-74

1[Senate Hearing 119-74]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                                                         S. Hrg. 119-7456                 LEGISLATIVE HEARING TO REVIEW S. 1462,7                          FIX OUR FORESTS ACT89=======================================================================1011                                HEARING1213                               before the1415                       COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE,16                        NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY1718                          UNITED STATES SENATE1920                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2122                             FIRST SESSION2324                               __________2526                              May 6, 20252728                               __________2930                       Printed for the use of the31           Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry3233                 [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]3435                  Available on http://www.govinfo.gov/3637                               ______3839                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE404160-341 PDF                WASHINGTON : 20254243           COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY4445                    JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas, Chairman4647MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky            AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota48JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota            MICHAEL F. BENNET, Colorado49JONI ERNST, Iowa                     TINA SMITH, Minnesota50CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi        RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois51ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas               CORY BOOKER, New Jersey52TOMMY TUBERVILLE, Alabama            BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico53JAMES C. JUSTICE, West Virginia      RAPHAEL WARNOCK, Georgia54CHARLES GRASSLEY, Iowa               PETER WELCH, Vermont55JOHN THUNE, South Dakota             JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania56DEB FISCHER, Nebraska                ADAM SCHIFF, California57JERRY MORAN, Kansas                  ELISSA SLOTKIN, Michigan5859               Fitzhugh Elder IV, Majority Staff Director60                    Jessica L. Williams, Chief Clerk61                Lauren Santabar, Minority Staff Director62                 Chu-Yuan Hwang, Minority Chief Counsel6364                            C O N T E N T S6566                              ----------6768                          Tuesday, May 6, 20256970                                                                   Page7172Hearing:7374Legislative Hearing to Review S. 1462, Fix Our Forests Act.......     17576                              ----------7778                    STATEMENTS PRESENTED BY SENATORS7980Klobuchar, Hon. Amy, U.S. Senator from the State of Minnesota....     181Boozman, Hon. John, U.S. Senator from the State of Arkansas......     48283                                WITNESS8485French, Chris, Acting Associate Chief, U.S. Department of86  Agriculture Forest Service, USDA Forest Service, Washington, DC     387                              ----------8889                                APPENDIX9091Prepared Statements:92    French, Chris................................................    269394Document(s) Submitted for the Record:95Boozman, Hon. John:96    American Property Casualty Insurance Association, letter of97      support....................................................    3298    Congressional Sportsmen's Foundation, letter of support......    3499100Question and Answer:101French, Chris:102    Written response to questions from Hon. John Boozman.........    38103    Written response to questions from Hon. Ben Ray Lujan........    41104    Written response to questions from Hon. Peter Welch..........    44105    Written response to questions from Hon. Adam Schiff..........    45106107                 LEGISLATIVE HEARING TO REVIEW S. 1462,108                          FIX OUR FORESTS ACT109110                              ----------111112                          TUESDAY, MAY 6, 2025113114                                        U.S. Senate115          Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry116                                                    Washington, DC.117    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 3:02 p.m., in118Room 328A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. John Boozman,119Chairman of the Committee, presiding.120    Present: Senators Boozman [presiding], McConnell, Hoeven,121Marshall, Justice, Klobuchar, Bennet, Smith, Welch, and Schiff.122123  STATEMENT OF HON. KLOBUCHAR, U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF124   MINNESOTA, U.S. COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, NUTRITION, AND125                            FORESTRY126127    Senator Klobuchar. [Presiding.] I am going to call the128hearing to order, and Senator Boozman is on his way. He was129just voting.130    I want to thank our witness, Mr. French, for being here. I131know we will be introducing you shortly as Acting Associate132Chief French. That is a long title. Thank you. Thirty-four133years of service at the Department of Agriculture, thank you134for appearing before our Committee.135    The Fix Our Forests Act that we are going to be considering136here today is the first major standalone forestry bill Congress137has debated in more than two decades, and that is why we look138forward to hearing your testimony. We also appreciate the139bipartisan work of Senators Hickenlooper, Padilla, Curtis, and140Sheehy to introduce a Senate version of the bill.141    As everyone knows, in the country earlier this year,142wildfires raged across Los Angeles, killing dozens of people,143devastating homes and businesses. This spring, wildfires144threatened homes and communities in the Carolinas and Georgia.145Rising temperatures, drier summers, longer wildfire seasons,146and earlier snowmelt are driving these fires as forests depart147from their historical conditions. There are growing threats148across the Nation.149    We have seen threats to forests in other ways, and in the150last farm bill, I supported improvements to the Good Neighbor151Authority, a bipartisan effort, and the execution of vegetation152management projects to reduce wildfire risk. Now the size and153scope of these fires and the level of need for forest154restoration make it clear that we must do more to improve155current tools, like the Good Neighbor Authority, and we must156invest more in wildfire prevention.157    In recent years, I have supported additional permitting158flexibilities and investments in wildfire risk prevention. As a159result of these laws, a record-breaking 4.28 million acres were160treated for wildfire last year alone. Unfortunately, we are161seeing from this Administration cuts to the Forest Service. The162recently released budget proposes deep reductions in National163Forest system funding, popular programs that strengthen state164and private capacity for managing forests, and forestry165research.166    Eliminating the successful bipartisan collaborative Forest167Landscape Restoration Program is something that the Fix Our168Forests Act seeks to improve, and the budget sadly recommends169moving wildfire operations out of the USDA's Forest Service.170These are concerning proposals that have an impact on lives and171livelihoods.172    Equally concerning, the Forest Service has reportedly lost173more than 4,000 employees since January, and while many174wildland firefighters have been exempted from workforce175reduction initiatives, I am concerned that many Forest Service176employees with so-called red cards have departed the agencies.177These employees are crucial.178    Funding is another important consideration as the Committee179discusses this important bill, the Fix Our Forests Act. In its180latest update on the Wildfire Crisis Strategy's implementation,181the Forest Service reported that in some areas there is more182work to do than workforce capacity. Regardless of what the USDA183calls its wildfire strategy, what remains the same is the need184for tree thinning and prescribed fire to occur on some acres.185    The new wildfire intelligence center, fireshed assessments,186increasing the pace and scale of forest restoration work, and187reforestation, all of these new authorities demand resources.188We can all agree that more active forest management is needed,189but we must make sure we have the resources to do it and we190keep the employees to do it.191    I just want to thank you, Mr. French, for being here.192Again, we are really pleased that there has been such good work193done on a bipartisan basis, and I am sure some of our194colleagues will be here soon.195    Now I am going to introduce you, Mr. French, or should we196wait?197    Okay. Mr. French serves as the Acting Associate Chief for198the U.S. Forest Service at USDA. Prior to this assignment, he199served as the Deputy Chief of the National Forest System, where200he was responsible for policy oversight and direction for201natural resource management and public service delivery202programs across the 193 million acres of national forests and203grasslands in the National Forest System. He has spent a 34-204year career, as I mentioned, at USDA, working in a number of205positions within the Forest Service, and his testimony today206will be invaluable.207    Again, thank you for being here this afternoon, Mr. French,208and you are recognized for your statement. Then I know we will209look forward to hearing from Chairman Boozman. Thank you, Mr.210French.211212    STATEMENT OF CHRIS FRENCH, ACTING ASSOCIATE CHIEF, U.S.213DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE FOREST SERVICE, USDA FOREST SERVICE,214                        WASHINGTON, D.C.215216    Mr. French. Thank you, Ranking Member Klobuchar and Members217of the Committee. My name is Chris French, and I am the218Associate Chief of the Forest Service, and I appreciate the219opportunity to provide the perspective of the USDA Forest220Service on the Senate draft of the Fix Our Forests Act.221    Our national forests are facing great challenges:222uncharacter-istically severe wildfires, insect and disease223outbreaks, invasive species, and many other stressors. Although224the Forest Service has been working diligently with resources225and authorities it has been given, there is still much to be226done to improve the health and productivity of our Nation's227forests.228    President Trump's Executive Order 14225 and Secretary229Rollins' Secretarial Memo 1078-006 help the agency take230immediate action to mitigate risk, protect public health and231safety and critical infrastructure, support local and rural232economies, and mitigate threats to natural resources on the233National Forest System lands.234    The Senate draft of Fix Our Forests Act works to address235these issues, as well as a variety of other new programs and236amendments to existing authorities. The bill compiles several237separate bills related to wildfire breaks, forest health,238forest management, and other provisions. USDA supports the bill239and would like to continue to work with the Subcommittee on240technical changes. I will highlight a few areas.241    USDA strongly supports streamlining NEPA procedures under242the National Environmental Policy Act and expanding existing243categorical exclusions to reduce wildfire risk and improve244forest health. In order to expedite the implementation of the245categorical exclusion for high-priority hazard trees proposed246in Section 213, we would encourage the Committee to establish247the categorical exclusion statutorily rather than directing the248Secretary to do so within a year.249    USDA also supports the proposed fix to the problematic250Cottonwood decision and would like to work with the Committee251and our federal partners on technical changes to address the252issue once and for all.253    USDA supports provisions of the collaborative tools in254Title I(b). We support the changes to Good Neighbor Authority255and would support adding a provision that would allow retained256timber receipts to be used for the construction of roads, as we257saw in the House draft.258    In addition, we support extending the maximum length of259stewardship and result contracting projects from 10 to 20260years, as we see in Section 112.261    Further, we support raising the threshold at which timber262sales must be advertised and would encourage the Committee to263add a provision to make annual increases to the threshold to264account for inflation.265    USDA sees prescribed fire as a critically important tool to266support wildfire risk reduction and forest management. We267support the subtitle on prescribed fire as it would support our268work to reduce the risk that wildfires pose to our communities269and resources. Specifically, this subtitle would strengthen our270fire workforce by streamlining certification requirements and271increasing their interoperability with our non-federal272partners, as well as offering our prescribed fire managers more273liability protections. We will be able to strengthen our274partnerships with a variety of entities through the new275cooperative agreements and contracts authorized by this276section.277    We would like to work with the Committee to clarify a few278sections, including on the use of pile burning and the nexus to279prescribe fire has with regulatory compliance.280    Last, though USDA is largely supportive of our Fix Our281Forests Act, USDA does not support the incorporation of282containerized systems into our suppression response under283Section 306 given firefighter safety and other operational284concerns.285    Chairman Boozman, Ranking Member Klobuchar, Members of this286Committee, thank you for the opportunity to present USDA's287views on this proposed legislation, and I look forward to288answering your questions.289    [The prepared statement of Mr. French can be found on page29026 in the appendix.]291    Chairman Boozman. [Presiding.] Thank you, Mr. French. Thank292you, Senator Klobuchar, for getting us off to a good start.293294   STATEMENT OF HON. BOOZMAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF295 ARKANSAS, CHAIRMAN, U.S. COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, NUTRITION,296                          AND FORESTRY297298    Chairman Boozman. We are here to review S. 1462, the Fix299Our Forests Act, commonly referred to as FOFA. I welcome our300witness, Mr. Chris French, Acting Associate Chief for the U.S.301Forest Service, for being here today. I know you are a busy302guy, but we appreciate you coming and sharing your insight.303    Members and staff on both sides of the aisle and both304chambers of Congress have invested significant time and efforts305to bring this legislation in front of our Committee today. I306want to thank my colleagues, Senator Curtis, Hickenlooper,307Padilla, and Sheehy for their tireless efforts in developing308and introducing this bipartisan Senate bill.309    I also want to thank Senator Marshall and Senator Bennet310for your work as Chair and Ranking Member at the Subcommittee311regarding the hearing you convened in March on H.R. 471, the312House-Passed Fix Our Forests bill.313    Finally, I want to thank my friend and fellow Arkansan314House Natural Resources Committee Chairman Bruce Westerman,315who, along with Congressman Scott Peters of California, led an316exhaustive bipartisan effort to construct and pass H.R. 471 on317the House floor with 279 votes in January of this year.318    As we all know, wildfires are indifferent to federal,319state, tribal, and private property lines or political320subdivisions. The Fix Our Forests Act provides us with a unique321bipartisan opportunity to modernize and right-size some of the322tools and processes our federal land management agencies,323states, counties, tribes, rural and urban communities, and324private partners across the country need to mitigate the325frequency and intensity of catastrophic wildfire while helping326to keep our forests healthy and working for generations to327come.328    Similar to the House-Passed legislation, S. 1462 identifies329and prioritizes the most fire-prone landscapes and provides330federal land-grant management agencies with improved331authorities and technologies to mitigate those risks as332exponentially as possible. It enhances the Federal Government's333public-private partnership authorities to increase the pace and334scale of the work needed on the ground.335    S. 1462 rectifies certain processes to mitigate frivolous336litigation and remove duplicative review processes to337facilitate the Forest Service's ability to proceed with its338statutorily required environmental review process for projects339on the National Forest System lands.340    This legislation also elevates the critical need to341incentivize innovation and resilience in our Nation's forests342by prioritizing initiatives such as biochar, nursery capacity,343and white oak restoration.344    This legislation reflects the bipartisan efforts and ideas345to mitigate the frequency and intensity of catastrophic346wildfire, and I am pleased Members of the Committee will have347this opportunity to further explore FOFA and hear from the348Forest Service on how the legislation will reduce catastrophic349wildfires and improve forest health.350    I am grateful for the work our colleagues have done on both351sides of the Capitol and the aisle that brings us to this352point. I look forward to working with my colleagues through the353Committee process before the end of this work period to deliver354these essential improvements and modernized tools to our355federal land management agencies.356    With that, we will start with our questions, if I can find357them. Okay. I need all the help I can get here.358    Mr. French, can you please help the Committee gain a full359understanding of the agency's use of categorical exclusions and360what actions must still be taken in order to use them,361regardless of size?362    How will the categorical exclusions in S. 1462 help advance363the pace and the scale of forest management, and should364Congress consider additional or even increasing categorical365exclusions?366    Mr. French. Sure. Okay, thank you, Senator. A categorical367exclusion is one of the ways that you comply with the National368Environmental Policy Act. It does not exempt you from the369National Environmental Policy Act. It is an approach for370documenting and being transparent to the public about what the371effects are of the project you are going to do. It is for372projects that we have found to be, or Congress has found to be,373routinely non significant. For a project that may be considered374significant under NEPA, we may look at an environmental375assessment, or we may look at an environmental impact376statement.377    A CE is a project that has been found to be non378significant, and we are disclosing the effects of that project379to the public through the categorical exclusion process. You380have to comply with the National Historic Preservation Act, the381Clean Water Act, the Clean Air Act, and the Endangered Species382Act, and you have to be regulated and go through the processes383with those agencies on any of those projects.384    Chairman Boozman. Very good. Mr. French, can you explain385how frivolous litigation has slowed down the Forest Service's386ability to conduct proper forest management to reduce fuels and387how this legislation would help alleviate these delays?388    Mr. French. Litigation, especially in certain parts of the389country, add a lot of additional process and analysis to the390projects that we do. I will give you a few examples of this.391The most litigated areas that we have in the National Forest392System are up in Montana, Idaho, Region One, California,393Oregon, Washington. In these areas, what we generally find is394that the level of analysis and disclosure we do through NEPA is395considerably longer and more extensive than we do in other396places because we are defending ourselves from litigation that397we often will get on vegetation management fuels reduction398projects.399    This will add about $100,000 to $125,000 onto the cost of400every project. It generally doubles the cost it takes us to401deliver, let's say, a board foot from an area that is not402litigated than it does to an area that does. It adds403considerable burden in terms of timeframe. For a community that404is looking for us to perform a hazardous fuels reduction405project in and around their community, we may propose it and be406ready to implement it within about a year and a half, but if it407goes under litigation, we may not actually be able to implement408it for three to four years or longer.409    Chairman Boozman. Very good. Mr. French, can you help the410Committee understand why, despite limited emergency authorities411provided in prior legislation, enactment of FOFA and greater412certainty at the agency is necessary?413    Mr. French. Well, I think FOFA does a few things for us.414One, it recognizes the size of the problem that we have across415the National Forest System in terms of fire and forest health416and appropriately sizes the projects and authorities we have to417the problem at hand. We are having fires that are impacting418sometimes a million acres. We have fires that are 100,000 acres419that are no longer considered exceptional.420    The work that we have to do both to prevent those and to421respond after is no longer something that is 250 acres or even4223,000 acres but is much grander and much larger than that if we423are going to be effective. FOFA recognizes that and puts424together the set of tools for both us to plan where we need to425do our work and how to do it more quickly, and it puts it in426statute so it is not as susceptible to litigation.427    Chairman Boozman. Very good. Senator Klobuchar.428    Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.429    Mr. French, the Fix Our Forests Act improves the Good430Neighbor and stewardship contracting authorities that leverage431state, tribal, county, and industry partners to achieve more432forest restoration. I have long helped champion improvements to433these tools, which are a priority for my state and Senator434Smith's state, same state, where active forest management is435needed to enhance the health of Minnesota. Yes, I did not mean436Wisconsin. They often confuse Senator Baldwin and Senator437Smith, whole other story--to enhance the health of Minnesota's438forests.439    Mr. French, how will changes to Good Neighbor Authority and440stewardship contracting provide more long-term certainty to the441Forest Service partners and assist forest restoration efforts?442Understanding that you may want some changes to the bill, there443may be other changes proposed here, but talk about that issue.444    Mr. French. Yes, I mean, forest management across this445country is a very collaborative effort between local, state,446and federal agencies, and especially for us. We found the Good447Neighbor tool to be exceptionally helpful, working with state448agencies to implement forest management work on National Forest449System lands. It allows us to essentially do a lot more and450more efficiently and effectively given the staffing that we451have.452    The changes that are being proposed here recognizes the453costs that go with the state so they can use the receipts to454actually fund the program they are doing to help manage federal455lands, and that is appropriate and helpful. Otherwise, they are456just getting limited resources.457    Senator Klobuchar. Okay. As I noted, the President's458budget--and I do not expect you to be the commentator on that--459proposes cuts to National Forest System management, staffing,460and facilities, state, private, tribal forestry assistance,461forestry research. This includes eliminating a program that has462reduced wildfire risk across five million acres.463    Then part of the budget notes that there will be a shift to464the state. Has the USDA evaluated if states have the capacity465and resources to assume a greater role in forest management?466    Mr. French. We are in constant discussions and467collaboration with state foresters across this country. In468fact, we just sat down last week and talked through them about469better ways for us to work together to share capacity. It is470mixed. From state to state, they have different capacity. I471think some of the changes that are associated with FOFA472actually gives them the tools they need to bring that up.473    For us, we found the work that we do with counties, tribes,474and states through Good Neighbor to be exceptionally helpful,475especially when we may have limited capacity on our own.476    Senator Klobuchar. Last month, Senator Heinrich and I sent477a letter to the USDA expressing concerns and raising questions478about potential workforce reductions at the Forest Service. We479recently received a response, but I am looking forward to more480information on workforce reduction efforts and the funding and481hiring freezes at the Forest Service. I think we all know these482workers are critical.483    Mr. French, how are you planning around the potential484staffing cuts to ensure all these major responses continue to485be met? Are you concerned about losing employees who hold so-486called red cards that allow them to respond to fires?487    Mr. French. Yes, thank you for the question. Our highest488priority right now--and we just sat down with our leadership489team and assessed the changes that have happened in our490workforce and the changes that we have seen or the losses we491have had for people that were red-carded to help with fire.492Fire is incredibly integrated across the Forest Service. It is493not just primary firefighters, but it is thousands of employees494across the Forest Service that contribute and help, especially495during that season.496    We have assessed what that looks like. We have prioritized497response to wildfire across the agency to be the number one498priority for all employees so that as we are going into this499season, we are able to activate, whether that is in support of500a camp and the logistics associated with a fire, or delivering501the preparedness we need to do on the line. We are working502closely with interagency partners. We are actually providing503for how we would fill in spaces that we need, but it is going504to take an all-hands approach until we rebuild some of those505skillsets.506    Senator Klobuchar. How would additional resources for507programs like Watershed Condition Framework or Water Source508Protection Program help the Forest Service meet the goals that509it has, especially with changes under the Fix Our Forests Act?510    Mr. French. I mean, I think everyone knows that the Forest511Service was founded primarily around the ability to deliver512clean water to America and a sustainable flow of timber. The513focus that we have on delivering healthy watersheds, funding514that goes there helps us expand and maintain that. We know that515right now when we have a wildfire that is, like I said, of516hundreds of thousands of acres or a million acres, the517consequences of sediment flow, the consequences of water518delivery to systems downstream are so consequential----519    Senator Klobuchar. Okay.520    Mr. French [continuing]. so anything we can do to fix that521is helpful.522    Senator Klobuchar. All right. Just very quick last523question, will the Forest Service be able to continue treating524more acres once the additional funding provided in recent years525is no longer available?526    Mr. French. You are specifically referring to the527supplemental funds we got through IIJA and IRA?528    Senator Klobuchar. I am talking about treating the acres529against wildfire.530    Mr. French. Yes. We have invested a lot of those funds so531that they will be able to provide work over time with a lot of532partners right now, so we should see that continue for a little533while. Essentially, we are going to have to change our business534model for how we are doing some of that work if we are going to535maintain the acres that we are doing right now. We are going to536have to depend more heavily on private partnerships, on states537to do some of that work because the funding levels will not be538the same.539    Senator Klobuchar. Thank you.540    Chairman Boozman. Senator Marshall.541    Senator Marshall. Well, thank you, Chairman, and welcome,542Mr. French, to the Agriculture Committee. I think you are going543to find that is not only brighter but much friendlier than the544E&R Committee.545    I want to talk about our RNGR Support Act, if you are546familiar with it. It is a legislation that Senator Hickenlooper547and I introduced before. Our bill included a dedicated funding548mechanism through the Reforestation Trust Fund to ensure we549would not be diverting resources from other essential programs.550    Given your leadership on national forestry priorities,551would you agree that using the Reforestation Trust Fund offers552a sustainable path to implementing the bill without impacting553other critical programs?554    Mr. French. As what I have read thus far and understand it,555yes.556    Senator Marshall. Okay. Next, has the U.S. Forest Service557provided technical assistance on how to implement RNGR without558pulling from existing state, private, and tribal forestry559funding?560    Mr. French. I believe we have. We will have to get back561with you on that one.562    Senator Marshall. Okay, thank you.563    Mr. French. Yep.564    Senator Marshall. Is the agency open to state565representation on the Wildfire Intelligence Center Board, as is566the case with other interagency entities in the fire management567system, such as the National Multi-Agency Coordinating Group568and the National Wildfire Coordinating Group?569    Mr. French. Absolutely. I mean, wildfire is an interagency,570it is a local county, it is a state, it is a federal response,571and the only way to do this effectively is with that572representation within the Intelligence Center.573    Senator Marshall. Okay. Just kind of a general question,574has it been your experience, or do they have the potential--I575am referring to mills, whether it be a paper mill or a lumber576mill--do they have the potential to contribute to the proper577management of forests?578    Mr. French. Absolutely. I mean, having a thriving forest579product sector is essential for us to be able to reduce580wildland fire risk across this country and to provide jobs to581local economies.582    You know, essentially what is happening, especially through583most of the West, is that when we have been putting out our584fires and removing fires, we just have lots more trees than we585ever had. Those trees are competing for water, resources. They586are dying. They are affected by insect and disease. Thinning587those forests are incredibly important for their health, but it588is also incredibly important to reduce wildfire. Low-level589wildfires we can manage. High, catastrophic, 100,000, million-590acre wildfires, they are devastating.591    The forest products industry, a diversifying industry, an592integrated industry allows us to treat those lands so that they593are healthier, they reduce risk, and at a level that is much594more reasonable to the American taxpayer because you are able595to produce a product to do that work where you are not having596to pay as much per acre.597    Senator Marshall. If we do not have any paper mills or598timber mills in Kansas, so I am not familiar with the industry,599do they rent the part of the forest and then you are able to600take those monies and do good things with it, I would suppose?601    Mr. French. We essentially offer timber or biomass to602forest products industry, whether they are making dimensional603lumber or they are burning it for energy production. We will604offer it through sales, timber sales. The revenues from that go605back to things such as reforestation. They go back to doing606other work on the landscape like habitat improvement and to the607Treasury and to counties for their school funds.608    Senator Marshall. Okay.609    Mr. French. We also offer it through what are called610stewardship agreements where we trade the value of that timber611for other work that can be done. We do it through what are612called Good Neighbor Agreements where we allow the states to613implement that work on our behalf or tribes or a local county.614We have a variety of mechanisms that we use in order to615essentially remove that material and put it to market.616    Senator Marshall. Have the number of mills in the country617decreased? Are they staying the same? What has led to that618stability or instability?619    Mr. French. The forest products industry has significantly620constricted since my time of working with the agency. It is621based on a number of things, market conditions, housing622markets. It can be based on softwood lumber that is coming in623from other places like Canada. It can be based on not having624local supply. That is usually the issue that can be associated625with us.626    We generally supply somewhere around six percent of the627softwood in the United States. For some mills, they have a very628diversified area. They draw from private lands, state lands,629from federal lands. Other areas are very dependent on federal630lands. When there is a decrease in what we offer, it affects631their ability to stay open.632    Senator Marshall. Okay. Thank you so much. I yield back.633    Chairman Boozman. Thank you. Senator Smith.634    Senator Smith. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. French, for being635with the Committee today. Thank you, Chair Boozman, and also636our Ranking Member for holding this hearing.637    Before I get to my questions, what I would like to do is to638highlight two small forestry and lands issues that are really639important in Minnesota that I am working on. The first is my640bipartisan Thye-Blatnik Act. This is a law which ensures that641these counties in far northern Minnesota--Lake and Cook and St.642Louis Counties--receive a source of revenue for hosting federal643forests. They have done this for decades. This is a small bill644with a technical fix that would make a huge difference to these645counties. It passed through the Senate last year, and we need646to move it again this year.647    The second bill is a House bill, also bipartisan, passed648the House earlier this year, which would just basically649facilitate a land exchange between Chippewa National Forest and650land held by this family lodge, Bowen Lodge. The exchange is651supported by the local community, supported by the local tribal652nation, Leech Lake Band of Ojibwe. Since it has passed the653House, it also needs a path here in the Senate.654    Now, I raise this because I think that it would be smart655for us to figure out if we can work together with the Forest656Service on a lands package in this Committee before too long. I657think it would just make sense that if we are working on this658forest management legislation, that we find a way to move some659of these noncontroversial and non-expensive bills at the same660time. I wanted to raise that and appreciate your attention.661    Chairman Boozman. No, we appreciate that. I understand662totally. I think every Member of Congress understands these663things are much more difficult than they should be, so we will664help you where we can.665    Senator Smith. Thank you very much. I appreciate your666attention to that, Mr. Chair.667    Let me turn to my questions, Mr. French. I want to ask you668about an issue, a Minnesota issue. I have heard from our folks669in Minnesota that the Department of Government Efficiency is670blocking contracts to distribute seedlings for reforestation in671the Chippewa and Superior National Forests in Minnesota. As I672am sure you know, these seedlings are harvested and planted to673grow into the next generation of trees that support our timber674industry. The work is time-sensitive, especially in places like675Minnesota, where the planning window depends on a lot of676extraneous factors like weather and snowpack and so forth.677    Mr. French, can you tell me now or could you respond to me678when you can, what does the Forest Service plan to do to679address these delays and to make sure that seedling plantings680can occur on a schedule that will preserve forest health?681    Mr. French. Thank you, Senator. For all the contracts and682other mechanisms that are being reviewed through the Office of683Government Efficiency, we are batching those and the priority684things such as disaster response, those things that are time-685sensitive, such as reforestation, seedlings, and working very686closely with them to get them moving and through the review687process.688    Senator Smith. Could we follow-up and see about the689specific issue and what we can do to make sure that this690happens?691    Mr. French. Of course.692    Senator Smith. Thank you very much. The second issue is693related to the spongy moth.694    Mr. French. Okay.695    Senator Smith. Okay? Just last month, the Minnesota696Department of Agriculture had to cancel plans to treat our697forests against this invasive species because federal funding698did not come through. Spongy moths cause millions of dollars in699damage to forests across the eastern United States, and now700they are moving westward. As you may well know, these moths eat701all of the leaves off the trees. That kills the trees and then,702of course, it increases the likelihood of wildfire as a result.703We are about, sadly, to miss the small window of time where we704can effectively treat our forests while the caterpillars are705still small. This is a problem. It puts livelihoods and our706entire forests at risk. My question is, how does the Forest707Service plan to address forest health and wildfire risk for708invasive species like this when we are seeing these funds being709cut and personnel being cut?710    Mr. French. I think, you know, in terms of the funds you711are talking about, which essentially become assistance for712states for dealing with forest health issues, we are713advocating, as are state foresters across the country, for the714importance of addressing forest health issues and the role that715these funds play.716    Senator Smith. That advocacy is useful, of course, but717advocacy without the funds to accomplish the work will not718accomplish the work. I am not going to put you on the spot719because I understand the position----720    Mr. French. That is fine.721    Senator Smith [continuing]. that you are in, but, I mean,722would you agree that we need to be able to figure out how to723pay for this stuff?724    Mr. French. I would say is that in the 2026 budget that the725President has released, they have made the policy oversight726about how they want to see those funds very clear. In the727current set of funds, they are going through reviews through728the Office of Government Efficiency. We continue to deliver on729those that we have already made commitments on and advocate for730why they are important for broader forest health.731    Senator Smith. Well, this will be a conversation that will732continue. This to me is an example of something that is very733economically sensible to make this investment in order to734protect forests so that we can then get the economic benefit735from these forests down the road.736    Thank you, Mr. Chair.737    Chairman Boozman. Thank you. Senator Hoeven.738    Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Chair.739    I do not want to spend too much of my time on it, but I did740want to tell the Senator from West Virginia that Roger Marshall741did just take off on his scooter, so in case his staff wanted742to get out there and commandeer it. Yes. I tried to stop him,743but he pushed me down.744    First off, Mr. French, thanks for being here. Thanks for745the work that you do. You have been out to our state a number746of times. You have been responsive, you have taken action, and747I want you to know we appreciate it very much.748    Though in regard to this issue, wildfires, you know, we749always think of those as forest fires, you know, Smokey Bear750and all that stuff. We had over 100,000 acres burned in North751Dakota on the grasslands. It not only killed cattle, but two752people were killed in those fires. These grassland fires are a753real thing. They move, you know, lightning quick----754    Mr. French. Very fast.755    Senator Hoeven [continuing]. and we have dry conditions. I756know you know about it. That leads to my first question, which757is in the Fix Our Forests Act, it primarily, you know, focuses758on forest fires, but talk to me about what it is going to do to759prevent and reduce fires in our grasslands.760    Mr. French. Okay. You know, there is not really the761statutory authorities in Fix Our Forests that would be helpful762for streamlining, let's say, the NEPA side of things there, but763it does provide us mechanisms working with the state and GNA to764help. It has some very specific pieces around prescribed fire765that would be very helpful. The Intelligence Center would help766us be more responsive to fires across the country so that we767are able to move resources into those areas, pre-stage them768more quickly.769    Senator Hoeven. The Chairman asked you right off the jump770there about categorical exclusion. Does that help us at all? Is771there any CE authority that would help us in terms of some of772the flexibilities and things that we are looking for in the773grasslands?774    Mr. French. In the grasslands? If we are going to do775pretreatment of those areas, it can.776    Senator Hoeven. Okay. Well, that would be good. Back then777on the forest side, how about, you know, if you are going to778get in and, you know, cut trees out of there to try to mitigate779fires, is there a place for that wood to go? Is that part of780the plan? Because, you know, as you cut those trees down, that781wood has got to have a home.782    Mr. French. Yep. In some places, we have a pretty robust783forest products industry that we can move trees to. In other784places, we are pretty challenged because we have lost that785industry.786    There are programs that we administer right now that help787subsidize transportation, especially of low-value products that788is very helpful. We offer loans that can help retool mills so789that they can handle more variety of wood products. I would say790that investments in the wood products industry and creating791predictable supply for them is probably the most critical thing792to keep them sustainable and thriving.793    Senator Hoeven. Okay. Then, have you done any cost794estimates? Wildfire suppression costs have increased about 80795percent over the past decade. Obviously, we are getting more of796these fires all the time. Have you done any anticipated cost797savings with the Fix Our Forests Act?798    Mr. French. I am not familiar with what those would be, and799we could certainly get back with you.800    Senator Hoeven. Okay. Then both President Trump and801actually Governor Newsom out in California have taken emergency802action on, you know, permitting some of this wildfire803mitigation work to go forward. Are those orders something that804is also covered on a permanent basis by this legislation so we805would see some of those things on a permanent basis?806    Mr. French. Yes, that is one of the strengths of this bill807is it actually takes some of the things that we do for808emergencies that allow us to move more quickly and codifies809them, and that is very helpful for us.810    Senator Hoeven. Is there anything else that is not in this811bill that you want to bring up or would recommend that should812be included or considered for this legislation?813    Mr. French. Well, I could talk your ear off on a set of814things that would make us more effective and efficient on any815bills. I would say the one thing here is I do think that the816hazard tree removal CE that the Senate has laid out for us here817would be more effective if it was statutorily given to us by818Congress rather than having us promulgated through regulation.819    Senator Hoeven. Okay. Thank you very much. Again, thanks820for being here, and thanks for the good work that you do.821    Mr. French. Thanks.822    Chairman Boozman. The Ranking Member on Forestry----823    Senator Bennet. Thank you.824    Chairman Boozman [continuing]. Senator Bennet.825    Senator Bennet. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. and I am glad I826was here for Senator Hoeven's questions.827    Mr. French, thank you for joining us here today. I know how828experienced you are, and I am grateful that you are in the role829that you are in.830    Protecting our forest, our watersheds, and our communities831from increasingly severe wildfires in the West is getting more832critical every single day. I really commend the hard work of833the sponsors of this bill, including my friend and my fellow834Senator from Colorado, John Hickenlooper. I think this bill is835a meaningful attempt to put forward solutions and find a path836forward on addressing wildfires that put communities like837Colorado at risk.838    I want to say to the Chairman, though, and I would have839said this in front of my friend, John Hickenlooper, I think it840is very important for this Committee to be exercising the841jurisdiction that we are over this bill. I think this is a842place where we can bring the voice of Senator Hoeven and others843to make sure that in the end this is a product that we can all844be proud of, and I look forward to working with you on that. I845am grateful that you are having this hearing.846    I know for most people here, we are familiar with the role847of the Forest Service when it comes to reducing the risk of848wildfires in the West and also fighting fires themselves, but849could you talk a little bit about the importance of that, Mr.850French?851    My next question is going to be about the reductions we852have seen in forests on the Western Slope of Colorado and853throughout the Rocky Mountain West and the deep concern that854communities have in my state and throughout the Rocky Mountains855that we may not have the personnel that we need as this fire856season starts.857    Mr. French. Thank you, Senator. Wildfire, as I said858earlier, is completely integrated across our entire agency. I859started my career in southern Arizona and spent 10 years in my860first permanent position in wildfire, and you learn when you861are in a position like that that when you are running a local862engine or you are part of a shot crew, that those communities863really depend on you to know the land, to respond quickly, and864to be able to essentially take care of things in a way that are865thoughtful about the community and neighbors that you are a866part of.867    As we have seen wildfire grow across the agency, the868interagency approaches and the role that we play in869coordinating those have become incredibly important. Forest870Service manages 75 percent of the wildfire resources in this871country. Almost all the aerial contracts that we have that872states and other federal agencies depend on.873    More importantly, when you look at that system, we are the874people that, in most of your forest communities where we have875large fires, they are the ones staffing along with folks like876CAL FIRE and others, that local station that is providing a877response that people have come to depend on.878    I will kind of get to your second question maybe879preemptively is that during the workforce reshaping that we880have been asked to do, we have made it a priority to exempt our881primary firefighters, and we have made it a priority to882essentially look at other skillsets in the agency that are883being left as people are taking some of the programs right now884of prioritizing our workforce as the most important piece that885we need to do is provide adequate fire suppression response.886    Senator Bennet. I appreciate that. It has been deeply,887deeply disappointing to us to see the numbers of Forest Service888personnel with red cards who have been separated from the889agency at this moment. I think I heard you use the word primary890when you described the firefighters who were being protected.891My view is that those red card holders are the backbone of our892fire suppression efforts, and they are going to be hard to893replace. We are already counting on local communities, as you894know, in partnerships in places like the White River and other895forests in Colorado, and now more of the burden is actually896going to fall on us, I think, and that is going to be a real897challenge for local communities.898    That brings me to my second question if the Chairman will899let me ask it. I see the leader is here. Just one more.900    As you were saying, I think it is important to have local901knowledge and important to have regional knowledge. Colorado902communities really know the risk of wildfire well. We have been903devastated in recent years by the Cameron Peak, these904troublesome--and Pine Gulch fires, but we also have a long905track record of working successfully to establish the kind of906partnerships that I was just talking about between state,907local, and federal partners to reduce wildfire risk. It is in908that connection that I have heard from 30 local officials just909last week in my state that provisions of the Fix Our Forests910Act might undermine their ability to meaningfully engage with911their federal partners in the development of forest projects.912    I am worried that the decisions are going to be made by the913bureaucracy in Washington, DC, without the input of people on914the ground in Colorado and in these communities that have been915engaged with these incredible partnerships with the U.S. Forest916Service all these years.917    I would ask you, Mr. French, whether you believe that, as918we consider this, the Forest Service can guarantee that this919bill is not going to limit opportunities for local communities920to continue to engage--the contribution of local communities in921these decisions that are, of course, most important to them922than anyone else.923    Mr. French. Yep, I can. I mean, that is not who we are. We924are a part of these communities, and when we are designing925projects and when we are advocating for projects, we have got926to do that in concert with the community that we are a part of.927I do not see anything in Fix Our Forests that would change that928commitment of working collaboratively with our local929governments and with the people that are there. I get it930changes some of the fixed processes, but that does not change931sitting down in a town meeting, talking about what needs to be932done up the canyon, and taking care of it.933    That is who we are as an agency. We are a very local,934decision-made-type approach with our districts and our forests.935These lands will persist when they are relevant to the936communities they are a part of. If we do not make sure that we937are doing that, then anything we do is out of step.938    I would also just say on the firefighter piece, we are939very, very, very cognizant of the experience and skillsets that940have walked out the door. We are very focused on how to adapt941and manage through that, especially with our state and other942federal partners. I am not going to say it is easy----943    Senator Bennet. Yes.944    Mr. French [continuing]. but we are prepared.945    Senator Bennet. Okay. Well, thank you for your testimony,946and thank you for your long service as well.947    Mr. French. You are welcome.948    Senator Bennet. I look forward to our work together.949    Mr. French. Thanks.950    Chairman Boozman. Senator Justice.951    Senator Justice. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, and thank952you, Mr. French. Thank you for coming.953    I normally start off, you know, have hopefully a good954statement, and then I ask a question. I am going to lead off955with just this question because it is going to lead me to where956I think we should go, and that is just this. In regard to all957the aspect of our forests today, especially our fires, you958know, because we are looking at a Fix Our Forests Act. If we959are deeply considering the fire component and then considering960our forest component, are we winning the battle?961    Mr. French. I think we are making a good try but not yet.962    Senator Justice. I know you are brutally honest, but I963would think if we were all brutally honest, we would say, no964way, we are not winning this war.965    If I could just tell you that I am the most impatient guy966in the room, I mean, really and truly. I rolled in up here with967white hair, and I am not here for any reason that would be968anything to do with me. I can tell you we have got a big969problem. That is all there is to it. You know, when I was the970Governor of West Virginia, I was the Governor for eight years.971It was a big-time honor and everything. A lot of times people972would say to me, they would say, what is the biggest973responsibility you have? I would say the same is true right now974for this. Get the economics right because the economics drives975a lot of this boat, and we are missing it in a lot of ways.976    You see, we have got all kinds of forest problems. I am an977outdoor guy. I am a wildlife guy. I can absolutely sit and talk978that with anybody because I have done it over and over and979over. With all that being said, if you are the most impatient980guy and you do not want anything, and you are a real believer981in economics being upside down, in this country today we have982lost our flooring, cabinetry. We have lost our furniture983business. All of this stuff is going on in every country of the984world, but it is not going on here.985    Right here, right in this right here, all this carbon is986frozen. If everybody is worried about the carbon and987everything, think about what happens with a forest fire. All988this is frozen. We have all kinds of issues with the health of989our forest today, and they are affecting our wildlife, and they990are affecting so many different things, our waters and on and991on and on. Yet in West Virginia, we are cutting 1/3 of our992growth, 1/3 of our annual growth, you know? The trees are993growing three times faster than we are cutting them. They are994falling on the ground. They are causing all kinds of issues. As995soon as a small fire goes through, all the carbon is released996right into the sky when it could be frozen right here. We could997have industry right here, and we could have jobs right here,998and we could have healthy forests right here. We have got to999get the economics right. I will promise you, at the end of the1000day, the economics are upside down, and I will promise you we1001are losing the battle.1002    Now, how do we get the economics right? There is all kinds1003of different ways, but our forests in West Virginia alone1004cleanup an equivalency of 21 coal-fired power plants a year. It1005is unbelievable what they do. That is our hardwoods. You know,1006there are issues all across this country with all kinds of1007different things, but our forests should be applauded every day1008for what they do. Our forests are doing so much for all of us,1009it is off the chart. I am a real believer in this. Play to your1010strengths. For God's sakes, you have a winning team. You have1011the most winning team on the planet.1012    The last thing I would tell you is just this. Now, think1013about it. Think about West Virginia for just one second. Think1014about Jim Justice in West Virginia. I am a basketball coach.1015West Virginia has great, great, great people, unbelievable1016natural resources, four of the greatest seasons on the planet,1017and it is located within a rocks throw of 2/3 of the population1018of the country. It really is. Yet, we continually struggled1019with being dead last. How could it be? You have got the same1020kind of team.1021    Now, we have got to do something about it. We have got to1022come up with an idea, an idea to drive the economics right, to1023make the forest healthy again. We have got to come up with an1024idea. You know, just to say, well, we need to do this about the1025fire or this about--we are not going anywhere. We have to come1026up with a real, live idea and an idea that would be something1027along the lines of, if we could find a way to create some level1028of--and God forbid this is a taboo, bad name--but a subsidy to1029credit our forest, to credit what our forest are giving us that1030would bridge us to absolutely doing something that would bring1031health to our forest.1032    We have got to come up with something, and at the end of1033the day, it is all going to be one thing, absolutely, period.1034You wait and see. It will be driven by the economics. Get the1035economics right.1036    Thank you so much, sir.1037    Chairman Boozman. Thank you. Senator Schiff.1038    Senator Schiff. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1039    I appreciate your being here. I represent California, and1040in particular two areas that have been very recently devastated1041by fire, so this is an issue that is near and dear to my1042constituents. I am trying to figure out a way to phrase this1043question in a way that you can answer it.1044    Mr. French. Okay.1045    Senator Schiff. Let me just posit both my interest and my1046concern. My interest is in making sure that we can better1047manage our forests so that we can reduce the incidence of fire1048and how devastating those fires are. I appreciate all the1049important work that has been done to improve the Fix Our1050Forests Act since it left the House.1051    My concern is that we are laying off federal firefighters.1052We are clawing back grants that are used for brush clearance. A1053lot of the laudable things that are established in the Fix Our1054Forests Act are not funded with any additional money, so there1055are laudable collaborative agencies established but nothing to1056provide them resources.1057    My concern is that the bill is used to accelerate the1058timber industry without a particular focus on reducing fire.1059Now, some of the timber that will be harvested will be useful1060to be harvested in terms of making our forests more resilient,1061but of course there will be interest in the timber industry to1062go beyond that and harvest timber having nothing to do with1063fire mitigation. That is not my priority. It is the priority1064set out in some of the executive orders, but that is not my1065priority.1066    I guess my question to you is, are there any safeguards in1067this legislation? What would a safeguard look like to make sure1068that this is really about fire mitigation and not just about1069timber harvesting? That is my question, and I know there are1070some pitfalls in how you can answer that, but to whatever1071degree you can answer it, I would welcome your answer.1072    Mr. French. Yes, I appreciate the question, Senator. You1073know, as stated before, I have worked for the agency for 341074years. I have worked in multiple places in the agency. I was1075trained as a biologist. I have worked in forestry and fire,1076recreation, wilderness, the whole gamut. I know our system. I1077am also acutely aware of the issues in California and the1078situation of the health of our forests and the way our1079communities right now are at risk.1080    There are so many safeguards in our system right now,1081whether it is the forest plan that limits what you can do or1082not do on the ground, regardless of what Fix Our Forests says.1083Any project we put out there has to follow the safeguards and1084the parameters that are established in that forest plan. What1085does that mean? That means there are certain areas you cannot1086treat. There are buffers that you have to put around creeks.1087There are species that you have to thin in different ways in1088order to meet the outcomes, like the California spotted owl. It1089is a broad safeguard for any project we are doing.1090    We are still, under this bill, on any project we do, we1091have to consult with the Fish and Wildlife Service. We have to1092consult with NOAA fisheries. We have to consult with the EPA1093for the Clean Air Act and Clean Water Act with our state and1094local regulatory agencies. All of that still stays. Like I1095said, there are multiple, multiple requirements that we have to1096meet in here in order to do any one of these projects.1097    In the last years, if you look at the number of acres that1098we have treated, it has greatly increased, and that is1099addressing fire. That is under multiple Administrations. Yet1100the number of sawlogs we produce have actually gone down.1101Because the focus of most of our work is on restoration, if you1102are reducing wildland fire risk or you are trying to restore1103forests for healthy forests, you are removing a vast amount of1104material that is not actually commercial. We do need1105investments in the forest products industry in biomass and low-1106value wood in order to utilize that.1107    If you look at the amount of material that we remove1108through timber sales, we harvest less than 1/10 of 1 percent of1109our national forests on any given year. It is somewhere between1110200,000 and 250,000 acres. That is such a low number when you1111look at what our forest plans actually would allow.1112    I tell you this as a lifelong career person, as an advocate1113for our forests, for the habitat within our forests. We do1114things well and right, and there are just a litany of1115safeguards that are in place. Most of the arguments that I see1116around our work is where is it occurring, is it happening fast1117enough, and whether we philosophically agree that removing1118material or timber harvest is appropriate on a national forest.1119    Senator Schiff. Thank you. If there is time later, I would1120love to ask another question. Thank you.1121    Chairman Boozman. Senator McConnell.1122    Senator McConnell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1123    If people around the world have heard of Kentucky, it is1124usually for two reasons, the Kentucky Derby, which was last1125Saturday, and bourbon. Bourbon has a lot of challenges right1126now because of the tariff wars. For example, up in Canada, they1127have taken bourbon off the shelves, so I think it is safe to1128say people in that iconic Kentucky industry are not happy about1129the tariff wars and hope that it will be over soon.1130    I want to raise something I am sure no one has heard of.1131Our iconic bourbon industry is critical to us. Ninety-five1132percent of the bourbon in the world is made in Kentucky. The $91133billion industry supports agriculture, forestry, manufacturing,1134distilling, bottling, construction, and transportation jobs,1135just to name a few.1136    Kentucky bourbon is synonymous with the white oak tree,1137which is used to age our state's signature spirit in wooden1138barrels. Unfortunately, 75 percent of the Nation's white oak1139population is rated as mature, meaning that there will be a1140shortage of white oaks within 30 years.1141    Congress must act to ensure the preservation of this1142invaluable resource, so in February, I introduced the White Oak1143Resiliency Act with Senator Warner. The bill requires the1144Department of Interior, USDA, and the Forest Service to1145coordinate research and conservation efforts, ensuring the1146white oak a stable supply and a viable future. I am pleased to1147see, Mr. Chairman, that my bill is included in the underlying1148act.1149    Mr. French, in your written testimony, you stated that USDA1150was supportive of the White Oak Resilience subtitle but would1151like to work with the Committee on minor technical adjustments.1152What changes would USDA like to see regarding white oak1153provisions?1154    Mr. French. Thank you, Senator. We are very supportive,1155especially with the loss that we are seeing across the country.1156It is minor stuff in the way it is written that would make it1157more effective within the context of the laws we have right1158now. What I mean by that is the National Forest Management Act1159and some other pieces, it is pretty minor, but it does not1160change any of the broader intent of what we are asking.1161    Senator McConnell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1162    Chairman Boozman. Thank you. Senator Welch.1163    Senator Welch. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.1164    Thank you very much for the good work you do.1165    I am hoping we get this bill to a place where I can vote on1166it. One of the changes that is made is the 10,000-acre1167designation.1168    Mr. French. Sure.1169    Senator Welch. In Vermont where we do not have the vast1170expanses of these forests that are so typical in the western1171States, that would mean that literally all but one of our1172projects would be in the exemption. We are not 10,000 acres. Is1173there a way that you could suggest where it would not be a one-1174size-fits-all? I mean, a lower number, I think, would be1175appropriate for Vermont, but I would not want Vermont to1176interfere with what would be good for California or good for1177Colorado. A couple of our sponsors are from there. Could you1178speak to that? We would like to have public participation but1179not have it get in the way also of a legitimate desire to move1180ahead.1181    Mr. French. Yes, thank you, Senator. I know that forest1182well. I spent time in Manchester as the district ranger there.1183    Senator Welch. Yes. Beautiful.1184    Mr. French. I think that if you look at how these CEs are1185set up, the context of how they would be used will vary from1186each geographic place. If I am a forester up in Vermont and I1187am looking at something, one, I may not even be able to fit1188within these categories because of the way they are set up for1189wildfire risk and some of the other pieces. It does not mean1190that you have to do 10,000 acres. What it essentially means is1191it is not that it is excluded from NEPA. It just means that it1192fits within a category that is not considered significant.----1193    Senator Welch. This is what I do not understand. It is not1194significant if less than 10,000 acres is excluded from the1195inquiry about significance, right?1196    Mr. French. Right.1197    Senator Welch. What I am saying is that that would mean1198that basically any project in Vermont would be in that1199category.1200    Mr. French. If it qualifies for the parameters of what that1201category is. My knowledge of projects up there, many of them1202would not. In fact, probably most would not.1203    The other thing about this is that from----1204    Senator Welch. Can you elaborate a little bit on that so I1205understand?1206    Mr. French. Yes. I mean, so if you look at the way these1207are set up, they are specifically for things like hazard tree1208removal or they are specifically if you are reducing wildland1209fire risk within these parameters while maintaining certain1210size classes and things like that. That would not be applicable1211in most places on the Green Mountain National Forest.1212    The other thing to recognize here, too, is that, you know--1213and we will get into a little bit of the NEPA side of things--1214most of the projects that are done--in fact, all of the1215projects, I think, that are done on the Green Mountain use1216environmental assessments. They are from, you know, thousands1217of acres. Every one of those environmental assessments come to1218a singular conclusion, a finding of no significant impact,1219okay? That is essentially what a categorical exclusion is1220saying, is that projects up to a certain size under certain1221conditions will not be significant if you meet ESA, if you meet1222Clean Water Act, and you go through a set of tests called1223extraordinary circumstances that look to see what are the1224effects on floodplains, what are the effects on wilderness1225areas. It goes through an entire series to make sure that it is1226actually routinely not significant.1227    Senator Welch. Okay. Let me get to just two other things.1228Thank you for that.1229    Mr. French. Yes, you are welcome.1230    Senator Welch. Along the lines of Senator Schiff, I am1231having a hard time dealing with the conflict of 5,200 Forest1232Service folks having left their jobs or been fired or whatever1233term it is we want to use. We have got about 5,200 fewer1234people, so the work that needs to be done, we do not have the1235people to do it. I would also respect that you cannot1236necessarily answer that question, but it seems pretty obvious.1237If you do not have the personnel, the work's not going to get1238done.1239    Mr. French. Well, right now, we have seen a decline of1240about 25 percent of our non-fire workforce across the agency1241for folks that have voluntarily taken the deferred resignation1242and other programs. It is not the same in all places. We have1243some places where we have lost considerable staff and other1244places----1245    Senator Welch. Well, as we proceed, I mean, at some point1246we are going to want to get an assessment of how this is1247affecting the functionality----1248    Mr. French. Of course.1249    Senator Welch [continuing]. of the work that you do, and1250that is not your decision.1251    The third thing is going from 6 years to 150 days----1252    Mr. French. Say that again, 6 years to 150 days?1253    Senator Welch. Well, this is on the judicial review.1254    Mr. French. Okay.1255    Senator Welch. This bill, as I understand it, used to be1256six years. It will go down to 150 days. I am flexible on that.1257There is no magic in the number, but that is a big drop, and1258that is a period of time within which affected groups can bring1259their case forward. Do you have any experience or examples of1260how that reduction from 6 years to 150 days will be helpful or1261harmful?1262    Mr. French. I mean, I cannot give you anything1263specifically, but I can generally tell you that for projects1264that are forest management, veg management, and honestly,1265recreation as well--let me put it to you this way. We win about126680 percent of our cases, but----1267    Senator Welch. You what?1268    Mr. French. We win about 80 percent of the litigation that1269is brought against us on our projects. That is a pretty good1270record. The consequences that we see is that often those1271projects will take anywhere from four, five, or six years to be1272implemented once they have gone through their analysis as they1273get through the court system. I think that is really a question1274for Congress and communities of whether that timeframe,1275especially if you are trying to do wildland fuels risk1276reduction to a community that is at risk is acceptable.1277    Senator Welch. Thank you.1278    Mr. French. You are welcome.1279    Senator Welch. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1280    Chairman Boozman. Senator Schiff.1281    Senator Schiff. Thank you, Chairman. I appreciate the1282opportunity, and really following up on Senator Welch's1283questions, which are largely what I wanted to explore further.1284Did I understand you to say there was a 25 percent reduction in1285the workforce?1286    Mr. French. Non-fire workforce. The agency has about 35,0001287employees. We have exempted all of the wildland primary1288firefighters from the workforce reshaping. That workforce is in1289place. It is the non-fire workforce that can also help support1290the fire workforce where there has been a little over 5,0001291positions that are people that have taken the voluntary outs.1292    Senator Schiff. That is really striking. One-fourth of the1293non-fire workforce----1294    Mr. French. Non-fire workforce.1295    Senator Schiff [continuing]. have taken advantage of the1296fork in the road to leave the Forest Service?1297    Mr. French. That is currently what we are seeing?1298    Senator Schiff. Then you have got the additional people1299that got the probationary letter, or have they been rehired?1300    Mr. French. All the probationary employees have been1301rehired if they chose to come back.1302    Senator Schiff. I think the budget includes another cut to1303the Forest Service, does it not?1304    Mr. French. It cuts us down about 63 percent.1305    Senator Schiff. About 63 percent.1306    Mr. French. I believe so, on the current budget.1307    Senator Schiff. How would it be possible to do anything1308other than timber harvesting contemplated on this bill with1309those kind of reductions?1310    Mr. French. We are going to need a lot of help from our1311state partners, our community partners, and others in the work1312that we do.1313    Senator Schiff. I mean, do your state partners do the kind1314of other mitigation work that we are talking about in the1315national forests?1316    Mr. French. Through Good Neighbor, they do, yes.1317    Senator Schiff. Wow, that is just staggering.1318    One last question to follow-up on Senator Welch's question1319because I had the same concern about going from 6 years to 1501320days. Generally, how soon after there is a decision is1321litigation initiated? That is, it may take a long time to get1322through the suits that are brought, but generally how soon1323after decision is litigation brought? Is the problem more how1324long it takes to get to the end of the litigation than the1325length of period after which you can file suit?1326    Mr. French. I do not have that data, but we can follow-up1327with you with the specifics on that. What I can tell you is,1328you know, there are three general effects that we see. The1329first is it increases our costs considerably in areas that are1330highly litigious in terms of the price per unit of what we are1331trying to deliver like a fuels reduction, a trail, or a timber1332volume. It increases the time considerably in those areas for1333the amount of work you have to do to get yourself prepared for1334a project to hit litigation, so you are doing a higher level1335analysis with more analysis so that you do better within the1336court system. The cost per project is generally going to be1337$100,000 or so more than a place that we do not have a1338litigation.1339    Then generally what we are going to see is that for those1340areas where we have high litigation, like I think there is1341about 360 million board feet of timber product that is held up1342in Region One right now under litigation, generally with1343injunctions, those might last, you know, three to six years. It1344is that period of time and the unpredictability it can create1345to the forest products industry but also to the communities1346that are looking for that work.1347    Senator Schiff. Let me ask you one other thing. I was in1348the far north of the state and visited one of the dead forests1349where there was aerial seeding. The forest--I think it was1350mostly spruce that grew up--was so dense, light could not get1351to the forest floor, and it is essentially a dead forest. There1352are a lot of trees still standing in that dead forest that have1353no limbs that are crowding out the rebirth of redwoods. What1354has impeded the ability to log those trees? Why are they still1355standing? Is it just not lucrative enough for the timber1356industry?1357    Mr. French. Well, I mean, no. I mean, this is a huge issue1358for us. You know, and I talked earlier about areas that we have1359fires--and you have seen this--from northern California to1360southern California. Like, look at those fires up the Feather1361River Canyon that go up to Quincy and places like that. We1362cannot get in there effectively and salvage that timber.1363    The importance of doing that, by the way, is not just about1364driving economic value for what is left in those logs, but it1365is about going in there and reforesting. It is about removing1366hazard trees where people cannot drive on roads. Like, I cannot1367put a crew in there to plant trees because of the risk of those1368trees falling on them, so you have to use aerial seeding.1369    We cannot go in and effectively salvage those trees because1370we generally get sued. Those trees lose their value about a1371year to two years after the fire has gone through. If I put all1372the effort into doing an EA or an EIS that is going to take us1373somewhere between a year and a year and a half, and then we get1374sued, which is pretty common on salvage sales, all the value is1375lost, and we have put all that effort in and hundreds of1376thousands of dollars to get that thing cleared, and then nobody1377will buy it because all the wood's deteriorated. You have to1378move quickly to salvage timber.1379    What you saw, if you look at like what Sierra Pacific and1380some of the other local entities do in California, they will be1381in there within six months to a year to remove that timber. We1382have even tried to take some of that timber and move it out of1383state to mills that need wood because there was so much left1384over from fires.1385    Honestly, the issue is the amount of time it takes it to1386get through the clearance process for NEPA and all the other1387regulatory pieces we have, and then litigation that keeps us1388from actually doing it at scale. It is one of the biggest1389criticisms that industry has on us is all that standing dead1390timber.1391    Senator Schiff. Thank you.1392    Mr. French. You are welcome.1393    Senator Schiff. Thank you, Chairman. I appreciate the added1394time.1395    Chairman Boozman. Thank you. Senator Klobuchar?1396    Senator Klobuchar. No, I do not have anything to add. I1397just wanted to, Senator Schiff, thank you for your questions.1398We know how personal all this is in your state, and just thank1399our Committee Members for working well on this issue with your1400Committee Members as well, Senator Boozman, so thank you.1401    Senator Schiff. Thank you very much.1402    Chairman Boozman. Thank you again, Mr. French, for your1403time and insights, to our Committee Members for your1404participation in today's important hearing.1405    I request unanimous consent to submit letters of support1406for FOFA to the Committee record. Without objection, so moved.1407    [The letters can be found on pages 32-35 in the appendix.]1408    Chairman Boozman. Questions for the record are due1409Thursday, May 8th, by close of business, and the hearing record1410will remain open for five business days.1411    Again, thanks to you, and thanks to the Committee for, I1412think, a really thoughtful, really good hearing today.1413    With that, we are adjourned.1414    [Whereupon, at 4:20 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]14151416=======================================================================14171418                            A P P E N D I X14191420                              May 6, 202514211422=======================================================================14231424[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]14251426=======================================================================14271428                   DOCUMENTS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD14291430                              May 6, 202514311432=======================================================================14331434[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]14351436=======================================================================14371438                         QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS14391440                              May 6, 202514411442=======================================================================14431444[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]14451446                               [all]