S.Hrg.119-105

1[Senate Hearing 119-105]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                                                  S. Hrg. 119-10556                  NOMINATION OF HON. SEAN CAIRNCROSS,7               ROBERT LAW, JAMES PERCIVAL, KEVIN RHODES,8                         AND JAMES WOODRUFF II910=======================================================================1112                                HEARING1314                               BEFORE THE1516                              COMMITTEE ON17               HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS18                          UNITED STATES SENATE1920                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2122                             FIRST SESSION2324                               __________2526        NOMINATION OF HON. SEAN CAIRNCROSS TO BE NATIONAL CYBER27        DIRECTOR, EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT; ROBERT LAW28         TO BE UNDER SECRETARY FOR STRATEGY, POLICY, AND PLANS,29        U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY; JAMES PERCIVIAL TO30       BE GENERAL COUNSEL, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY;31        KEVIN RHODES TO BE ADMINISTRATOR FOR FEDERAL PROCUREMENT32              POLICY, OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET; AND33    JAMES WOODRUFF II TO BE A MEMBER, MERIT SYSTEMS PROTECTION BOARD3435                               __________3637                              JUNE 5, 20253839        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov4041                       Printed for the use of the42        Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs4344[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]4546                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE4760-831 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 20254849-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------5051        COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS5253                     RAND PAUL, Kentucky, Chairman54RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin               GARY C. PETERS, Michigan55JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma             MAGGIE HASSAN, New Hampshire56RICK SCOTT, Florida                  RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut57JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri                JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania58BERNIE MORENO, Ohio                  ANDY KIM, New Jersey59JONI ERNST, Iowa                     RUBEN GALLEGO, Arizona60TIM SCOTT, South Carolina            ELISSA SLOTKIN, Michigan6162                William E. Henderson III, Staff Director63                  Christina N. Salazar, Chief Counsel64                      Andrew J. Hopkins,  Counsel65               David M. Weinberg, Minority Staff Director66     Christopher J. Mulkins, Minority Director of Homeland Security67              Claudine J. Brenner, Minority Senior Counsel68                Nomi Rosen, Minority Research Assistant69                     Laura W. Kilbride, Chief Clerk70                   Ashley A. Gonzalez, Records Clerk7172                            C O N T E N T S7374                                 ------75Opening statements:76                                                                   Page77    Senator Paul.................................................     178    Senator Moreno...............................................     279    Senator Peters...............................................     480    Senator Moody................................................     681    Senator Hassan...............................................     882    Senator Kim..................................................    1083    Senator Slotkin..............................................    1284    Senator Lankford.............................................    1485    Senator Blumenthal...........................................    1686    Senator Fetterman............................................    1887    Senator Hawley...............................................    1988Prepared statements:89    Senator Peters...............................................    259091                               WITNESSES92                         THURSDAY, JUNE 5, 20259394The Hon. Sean Cairncross to be National Cyber Director, Executive95  Office of the President96    Prepared statement...........................................    2797    Biographical and professional information....................    2998    Letter from U.S. Office of Government Ethics.................    4799    Responses to pre-hearing questions...........................    52100    Responses to post-hearing questions..........................    62101    Letters of support...........................................    71102Robert Law to be Under Secretary for Strategy, Policy, and Plans,103  U.S. Department of Homeland Security104    Prepared statement...........................................    79105    Biographical and professional information....................    82106    Letter from U.S. Office of Government Ethics.................   100107    Responses to pre-hearing questions...........................   104108    Responses to post-hearing questions..........................   120109    Letter of support............................................   134110Kevin Rhodes to be Administrator for Federal Procurement Policy,111  Office of Management and Budget112    Prepared statement...........................................   136113    Biographical and professional information....................   139114    Letter from U.S. Office of Government Ethics.................   156115    Responses to pre-hearing questions...........................   160116    Responses to post-hearing questions..........................   172117James Woodruff II to be a Member, Merit Systems Protection Board118    Prepared statement...........................................   185119    Biographical and professional information....................   186120    Letter from U.S. Office of Government Ethics.................   206121    Responses to pre-hearing questions...........................   209122    Responses to post-hearing questions..........................   220123James Percival to be General Counsel, U.S. Department of Homeland124  Security;125    Prepared statement...........................................   234126    Biographical and professional information....................   236127    Letter from U.S. Office of Government Ethics.................   251128    Responses to pre-hearing questions...........................   254129    Responses to post-hearing questions..........................   269130131                  NOMINATION OF HON. SEAN CAIRNCROSS,132                      ROBERT LAW, JAMES PERCIVAL,133                  KEVIN RHODES, AND JAMES WOODRUFF II134135                              ----------136137                         THURSDAY, JUNE 5, 2025138139                                     U.S. Senate,140                           Committee on Homeland Security141                                  and Governmental Affairs,142                                                    Washington, DC.143    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9.30 a.m., in144room SD-342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Rand Paul,145Chair of the Committee, presiding.146    Present. Senators Paul [presiding], Lankford, Scott,147Hawley, Moreno, Ernst, Moody, Peters, Hassan, Blumenthal,148Fetterman, Kim, and Slotkin.149150               OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PAUL151152    Chairman Paul. The Committee will consider today five153nominations.154    Sean Cairncross is nominated to be Director of the Office155of National Cyber Director (ONCD). Mr. Cairncross previously156served as Deputy Assistant President in the first Trump157administration and as the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of158Millennium Challenge Corporation. He has spent over two decades159in the legal and compliance field.160    Robert Law is nominated to be Under Secretary for Strategy,161Policy, and Plans at the Department of Homeland Security (DHS).162Mr. Law currently serves as senior counselor to the Secretary163of Homeland Security. He previously served as a senior policy164role in the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS)165during the first Trump administration.166    Kevin Rhodes is nominated to be Administrator of the Office167of Federal Procurement Policy (OFPP) at the Office of168Management and Budget (OMB). Mr. Rhodes currently serves as a169senior advisor at the Office of Management and Budget. Prior to170that, he served over two decades on active duty in the U.S. Air171Force (USAF).172    James Woodruff is nominated to be a member of Merit Systems173Protection Board (MSPB). Mr. Woodruff currently works at the174Board of Veterans Appeals while continuing his decades long175military career as a major in the Air Force Reserves.176    Last but not least, James Percival is nominated to be177General Counsel (GC) for the Department of Homeland Security.178Mr. Percival currently serves as a senior counselor to the179Secretary for Homeland Security. He served in various positions180in both State and Federal Government, including as chief of181staff for our colleague, Senator Moody during her time as182Attorney General (AG) of Florida.183    The witnesses' written statements have been submitted for184the record, and I ask unanimous consent (UC) to submit letters185of support\1\ received for the nominees.186---------------------------------------------------------------------------187    \1\ The letters of support appears in the Appendix on page 71 and188134.189---------------------------------------------------------------------------190    In the interest of time, I will forego my opening remarks,191but we will go ahead and swear in the witnesses to beginning.192If you will each rise and raise your right hand. Do you swear193the testimony you will give before this Committee will be the194truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you195God?196    [Witnesses answer in the affirmative.]197    You may be seated. We will now proceed to a round of198questions and we will start with Senator Moreno.199200              OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR MORENO201202    Senator Moreno. I am not used to going first when you are203in the kids' table Mr. Chair, but I appreciate that very much.204First of all, thank you all of you for your willingness to205serve and for being here today. I will start with you, Mr.206Percival.207    There's a community in Ohio, a county, a great county, it's208called Wood County. The county seat is Bowling Green. There was209a 24-year-old Venezuelan national who, thanks to Joe Biden's210open border policies, made it across the U.S. Mexico border,211was paroled in the United States, somehow managed to get to212rural Ohio, and then got enrolled in high school, and posed as213a 16-year-old high school student, even though he was 24 years214old, allegedly was a pedophile and now is in the Wood County215jail awaiting extradition.216    How does something like that happen and what is the plan to217make certain to communities in Ohio that something like that218could never happen again?219    Mr. Percival. Thank you, Senator, for the question. I mean,220the way that happened is that the last administration broke the221law. We actually filed a lawsuit against the Biden222administration for the abuse of parole at the border, and we223were able to eventually stop that. But it sounds like we did224not do it in time in that particular circumstance, and I am225very sorry for that.226    Senator Moreno. No, that's certainly not something that227that had to do with Trump Administration. That was all as a228result of Biden's policies. But if you could explain, because229there's a lot of nonsense that is said in the media and from230maybe sometimes on the other side of the aisle that we are231anti-immigrant. I am an immigrant. I don't feel that the232administration's targeting me. I followed the legal process to233come here.234    But imagine what you would feel like if you are a parent235and your teenage daughter is enrolled in high school with a 24-236year-old foreign national criminal alien. If you could just go237into detail about what are we doing to find out how these238things happen? Because there has to be accountability. A 24-239year-old Venezuelan does not make it to Wood County, Ohio240without a lot of help, a lot of assistance.241    Who are the non-governmental organization's (NGO's)242involved? Who housed them, who provided passage for them? How243does this person even enter our country and get to that place?244    Mr. Percival. Yes, Senator. If confirmed, something I would245definitely work on is looking at sort of start to finish how we246get to a situation like that. So we have the abuse of the legal247processes, like you talked about, abuse of parole. We are248hopeful that the Laken Riley Act will help cleanup a lot of249that.250    But you are absolutely right about NGO's who are basically251running a human trafficking scheme, many of them. And it's252something that, if confirmed, I would be happy to look into for253you because I agree.254    Senator Moreno. Do I have your commitment that we will255actually hold these organizations accountable? Clearly, the256voters held Joe Biden accountable and Kamala Harris accountable257by sending them home and sending them packing. Thank God. But I258hope that we hold the organizations that facilitated the259policies of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris accountable.260    Mr. Percival. Senator, yes, I agree that they need to be261held accountable.262    Senator Moreno. Sure. Mr. Rhodes shifting to you and263shifting to a totally different conversation, as you know, we264talked about this when you were in my office. Again, thank you265for your willingness to serve. It's very appreciated.266    There's a law on the books, so this is not theoretical,267this is not new legislation. This is the current law of the268land, is that the departments within our government must buy269products from the United States of America using U.S. taxpayer270dollars. That's common sense. That law exists.271    But during the four years of the Biden Administration,272specifically on a topic that matters to Ohio companies, nitrile273gloves, the ones that we see, you see at the U.S. Department of274Veterans Affairs (VA) when you go there as a veteran--thank you275for your service, by the way. When we see at the airport, we276see Transportation Security Administration (TSA) agents putting277on nitrile gloves, the Biden administration chose to buy those278gloves from China in violation of U.S. law.279    Do I have your commitment that in the procurement process,280that you will make certain that every single Federal agency281follows the law and buys products from American companies?282    Mr. Rhodes. Senator, thank you for the question. I283absolutely am committed to Buy America Act. As a veteran, when284I found out that nitrile gloves that the VA uses when I go and285get my medical care are from China, it's appalling and quite286frankly, frustrating. So as long as we can find a vendor or the287product made in America, we should commit to that. You do have288my commitment. Thank you.289    Senator Moreno. I appreciate it. Again, thank you for your290service, and thank you to all of you, especially the three of291you I did not ask questions of. Thank you for your willingness292to serve. One of the things I have noticed in my five months293here is the administration has attracted incredible talent,294people like all of you that are willing to serve. That's what295gives me great hope for the next four years that we are going296to get this country back on track. With that, Mr. Chair, I know297you are very fastidious on time, and I am up. My time is up.298    Chairman Paul. Very good. Perfect. Senator Peters will give299a brief opening statement, and then we will go directly into300his questions.301302             OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PETERS\1\303304    Senator Peters. Thank you, Mr. Chair, for your indulgence305on that.306---------------------------------------------------------------------------307    \1\ The prepared statement of Senator Peters appears in the308Appendix on page 25.309---------------------------------------------------------------------------310    Today, we are considering nominees for five high level311positions. All of these positions are critical for the American312people. While I certainly want to thank the nominees for being313here today, this rushed hearing limits our ability as Senators314to fulfill our constitutional duty of advice and consent. The315nominations process should provide us ample opportunity to do316our due diligence and ensure these nominees are fit to317effectively carry out the duties of these very important318offices.319    I am concerned this Committee's nomination process is320becoming a rubber stamp, a way to check the box and push321nominees to the Senate floor without sufficient oversight. We322are straying even further from our traditional open and public323process by not having the nominees give opening statements. By324restricting the amount of time for Members to actually ask325questions from each of you.326    This not only robs Members of the tools to thoroughly327evaluate a nominee's qualifications, it also limits328transparency for the public. The American people deserve to329know whether the President's nominees are up to the task for330these very serious roles. While this Committee neglects to hold331oversight hearings, the administration is dismantling key332government functions under the guise of restructuring. Instead333of targeting waste, fraud, and abuse, the Trump administration334is indiscriminately firing personnel and canceling funding335access across the government, disempowering our agencies, and336making them and the American people more vulnerable to national337security threats.338    By firing the watchdogs who oversee our government and make339sure that it is accountable to the public, the administration340is removing avenues to address any harm or wrongdoing. These341actions will not make the Federal Government more efficient and342accountable, they will prevent it from effectively serving and343protecting the American people. This Committee has a344responsibility to conduct thorough oversight to ensure that not345only the most qualified nominees assume leadership positions.346This process before us today undermines our duty as Senators.347    To the nominees, if confirmed, each of you will be in348positions of great influence to deliver critical services to349the American people. I sincerely hope that you will use your350influence to make our government more effective and not tear it351apart. Thank you, Mr. Chair, for that opportunity.352    My first question is to Mr. Cairncross. Welcome to the353Committee here today, and congratulations on your nomination. I354first want to assess how you would respond to certain355situations. If confirmed, how would you coordinate an356integrated Federal response to a serious zero-day vulnerability357being actively used by a foreign adversary to attack Federal358agency networks? What would your initial actions be?359    Mr. Cairncross. Sure. Thank you for the question, Senator.360Thank you, Chair Paul, and to the Members of the Committee for361holding the hearing. Senator, on a zero-day discovery, which is362a threat that was to the network or a system that was363previously unknown, I think it would be vital to work with the364interagency, with the National Security Council (NSC), with365Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA) to366determine what the impact was, what the vulnerability is, how367quickly it can be remediated and patched, to communicate with368the private sector to make sure that we have a good working369information flow, and then on the back end to determine what370that response should be.371    It's part of that layered cyber defense of denying our372enemies and adversaries benefits and imposing costs on them for373their behavior.374    Senator Peters. If confirmed, how would you coordinate a375Federal strategy to secure our agencies against supply chain376cyberattacks, other than sharing information on the tech, which377obviously is important, how would you advise the President?378    Mr. Cairncross. Sure. The first thing, Senator, and a goal379of mine is to make sure that this office sits at the place that380this Committee, and I believe Congress intended in the statute,381and that is to lead cyber policy coordination across the382Federal Government. And so in doing that, working with our383interagency partners is vital.384    We have been empowered to work with OMB to ensure that385budget alignment among the interagency aligns with386administration policy. I think that those tools have to be387leveraged and the relationships between us and the interagency388it's making sure that it is monitored and enforced.389    Senator Peters. Mr. Cairncross, the two national cyber390directors before you had extensive experience in cybersecurity.391You have other good experiences but cybersecurity is not part392of that experience. My question is, how are you going to make393up for these gaps in the experience that you currently have?394    Mr. Cairncross. Sure, Senator. It's true I do not have a395technical background in cyber, but in my roles running private396organizations and national party committees, I have been on the397user side of this. I have had to deal with foreign nation398attacks on our systems. We have worked with the Federal Bureau399of Investigations (FBI) and the intelligence community (IC) to400learn about them, to stop them, and to monitor those attacks.401Like I said, on the user side, I have that experience.402    On the management side I have run thousands of people and403billions of dollars in funds and in doing those jobs, I404surround myself with smart, people make sure that the right405people are in the right place to do the jobs, and take their406advice.407    Senator Peters. Another question for you. Got a lot of408questions for you. We have a lot of other folks here, but I409want to make sure I get this out. The Cybersecurity Information410Sharing Act of 2015 is a critical law, as you know, provides411liability protections for businesses that share threat412information with the Federal Government at each other.413Absolutely critical that that sharing occurs. These authorities414play a key role in coordinating public private responses to415cyber incidents including the recent attacks that we saw, Volt416and Salt Typhoon attacks.417    But unfortunately, CISA 2015 is set to expire this418September. That has a lot of folks very worried that that419protection's going to go away, and it's going to hamper our420ability to provide the cybersecurity protection that we need421for our Nation. My question for you, sir, is if confirmed, do422you commit to working with me to extend CISA 2015 before it423expires in September?424    Mr. Cairncross. I do, Senator. Yes.425    Senator Peters. Very good. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.426    Chairman Paul. Think I would just like to set the record427straight. The accusation's been made that we are not doing a428thorough vetting or hearing today. All the nominees have429submitted statements for the record, they can be read. There430will be a week time to read that. They have all been through an431ethics review. They have all been through an FBI review. They432have also sat through one hour of questioning with minority433staff. There will be a one to two hour hearing today where434questions can be asked. They have also submitted and answered435written questions. So, the norms for reviewing the candidates436are as they always have been. Senator Moody.437438               OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR MOODY439440    Senator Moody. We are both freshmen and our names start441with M. So, honest mistake. Mr. Chair, thank you so much. Thank442you to all of our nominees for stepping up to take this on. I443echo the comments. I have never seen an administration attract444so much talent from outside the public sector to be willing to445give up time with their families, pecuniary benefits, all of446the things that come along with being in a private industry to447come and work for the government.448    It has been inspirational to me as someone who has449dedicated a lot of my life and indeed left a private practice450to begin a life of public service. I think all of the families451that supported them in doing that. I know you have a lot of452your family here with you today. In fact, I will tell you, I453sat down with two of my top folks, one of which is up for454nomination today, Jimmy Percival, when they were considering455coming up here to serve in this administration and what that456would mean, a move leaving significant others, time away, that457really important time that you might not get back with family.458    I said to them, when this country was founded, many people459gave up a lot for the prospect of living as a free people in a460civilized society. They were away from their families, many461gave up their lives. We can give up time to come and serve this462administration and set this country on the right course so that463we can continue the prosperity and success of the United States464of America.465    Because two of my top people decided to do that, I have466been so proud of them. So, congratulations. I am excited to467introduce as part of my remarks, Jimmy Percival, who I can468think of no better candidate to be the General Counsel of the469Department of Homeland Security. Let me explain why. By the470way, I forgot to say when making that decision to come up and471serve, Jimmy has six kids at home, a wife, Emily, who I believe472might be a saint, and is here today with all six kids473supporting him. So thank you so much.474    When I took on the role as AG, we fought the last475administration tooth and nail as they abandoned the law and476opened up our Southern border and let in a historic amount of477unvetted people into this country. The estimates are anywhere478from 11 million to 20 million. If you take the most479conservative number, 11 million, that's more than the480population of 42 States.481    When we first saw this administration stop detaining people482that were committing crimes, serious felony crimes, and483deporting them and rather releasing them back into the484communities, we were the first to file suit on that. When we485saw that administration start enrolling people into the486interior in violation of law, we were one of the first to sue487on that. When we saw the administration start creating programs488rooted nowhere in law by Congress, we sued on that.489    When we saw the Federal prisons stop deporting people that490were arrested internationally and brought here merely because491they were drug traffickers, no connection to the United States492of America, brought here only because they were drug493traffickers released from prison and put in our communities in494the middle of an opioid epidemic.495    When we saw these insane policies completely in violation496of the law, the tip of the spear in that fight, when we took497the Biden Administration to court and won time after time, was498Jimmy Percival and our team. When we uncovered the plan when499the border was overrun, just step back and let everyone come500in. When we uncovered that secret memo, Jimmy Percival got that501done. As we course correct and try and save this nation and our502communities and make sure that they are safe again, I can think503of no better person than the person that fought that fight504against the lawless actions of the last administration to come505in and undo the damage.506    Because we are going to have to use laws that we have not507used before because we have never faced a President that opened508up our borders and let everyone in. I can think of no better509person to guide a team in the fight in courts and get that done510than Jimmy Percival. In fact, when the Senator of Michigan said511and asked a question, ``Will you be able to make sure our512government more effective and not tear it apart? ''513    You can imagine my response after watching our security and514our borders and our immigration system torn apart over the last515four years. The question is, can you make sure we rebuild it? I516am so proud of this President who has in just three months517brought down the numbers coming over our border, and vetted and518secured the border. But now we have to make sure we are getting519those that are here that will do damage to our citizens and our520communities and the security of this nation as we catch people521trying to import dangerous substances, as we catch people here522on Visas, stealing information, taking pictures of our military523bases.524    We need people to get people out that are going to do the525damage, and we have to do it quickly, and we have to do it526effectively. Jimmy Percival, what is your plan to do that?527    Mr. Percival. Senator Moody, I think I know when to quit528when I am ahead. But obviously everything you said is very529important. I know it's very important to the President and the530Secretary. If confirmed, I will work harder than anyone in this531administration to make that happen.532    Senator Moody. And do I have your commitment to supporting533any action and legislation that I have just filed to approve534expedited removal for anyone associated with a gang or criminal535activity?536    Mr. Percival. Senator, I will work with you on that. I537think those are good ideas.538    Senator Moody. Thank you.539    Chairman Paul. Senator Hassan.540541              OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HASSAN542543    Senator Hassan. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and Ranking Member544Peters. Good morning to all of the nominees. Congratulations to545you all for your nominations, and congratulations to your546families too, because this is a family effort, I know. We are547all grateful for your interest in serving. I am going to start548with a question for all of you. I would really ask you to549restrict your answer to a simple sentence.550    If you are directed by the President to take an action that551would violate the law, would you follow the President's552directive or follow the law? Mr. Cairncross?553    Mr. Cairncross. Senator, thank you for the question. I do554not believe that that would ever happen. But to take your555question, I would be faithful to the law.556    Senator Hassan. Thank you. Mr. Law.557    Mr. Law. Thank you for the question, Senator. I am558confident that President Trump would not ask me to violate the559law, and if confirmed, I will uphold the law.560    Senator Hassan. Thank you. Mr. Percival.561    Mr. Percival. Senator, the last two answers were perfect. I562would give the same answer.563    Senator Hassan. Thank you. Mr. Rhodes.564    Mr. Rhodes. Senator, I agree with my colleagues.565    Senator Hassan. Thank you.566    Mr. Woodruff. Senator, I agree with what's already been567said.568    Senator Hassan. I appreciate all of you saying you will569follow the law. I will just note for the record that I think it570is unrealistic to rule out the possibility that this President571of the United States would give a directive that violates the572law.573    Now, Mr. Percival, last month, the White House Deputy Chief574of Staff said that President Trump's administration is actively575looking at suspending habeas corpus. Two weeks ago, I asked576Secretary Noem about this, and today I would like to ask you577about this as well, since you are obviously nominated to be the578general counsel of the Department of Homeland Security.579    Mr. Percival, let's just start with, what is habeas corpus?580    Mr. Percival. Thank you, Senator. Habeas corpus is a Latin581phrase that means you shall have the body.582    Senator Hassan. What is the foundational right that habeas583corpus represents in our constitutional democracy?584    Mr. Percival. I guess there's a number of different585concepts. There's the writ of habeas corpus, which is a586judicial review mechanism. There's what we call the suspension587clause, which is about suspending the writ of habeas corpus.588Then there are several implications of that for the work that589DHS is doing, such as the Alien Enemies Act.590    Senator Hassan. I appreciate you and I could do a law591school debate about this. Let's just get to the core592foundational principle here and why it's so important. It is593the bedrock principle in our country that prevents the594government from imprisoning someone without any justification595or review. It's a key right that makes America a free society596unlike North Korea or Iran. It's important that we all as597Americans, understand, appreciate, and defend this principle.598    One of the concerns I have you just gave me an answer that599circled around that essential piece of our constitutional600democracy. Every American and every person in this country has601a right if they are detained, to demand that the government602just come and say why they are detaining them and do it in603public, and give people that foundational entry to due process.604    Since many of us have concerns about this administration's605commitment to due process, I think it's really important that606we understand that foundational, right. Do you agree that this607is a foundational principle, that the government must bring a608person before a court and provide a reason for that person's609detention? Do you agree that it's critical that we have this610right in order to be a free society?611    Mr. Percival. I agree that the Constitution protects the612availability of that writ except in enumerated circumstances in613the Constitution.614    Senator Hassan. Do you think it's an important thing for a615free society?616    Mr. Percival. Yes.617    Senator Hassan. Do you believe we should be a free society?618    Mr. Percival. I believe strongly in the ideals of the619founders, and they included that in the Constitution.620    Senator Hassan. You are also going to take an oath to the621Constitution of the United States, right?622    Mr. Percival. Yes, if confirmed, yes, ma'am.623    Senator Hassan. If a court says that the Department of624Homeland Security must bring a person in the government's625custody before a court, will you advise Secretary Noem to626follow that order?627    Mr. Percival. Thank you, Senator. The policy of this628administration is to follow court orders, and if confirmed, I629would act consistent with that policy.630    Senator Hassan. Thank you. Mr. Cairncross, I just want to631follow up on the line of questioning that Ranking Member Peters632started. He asked you about the reauthorization of the633Cybersecurity Information Sharing Act of 2015. I would also634love to work with you and the administration on making sure we635get that reauthorized.636    Another law that we also talked about when we met that637expires on the exact same day, is the State and Local638Cybersecurity Grant Program. We have talked about the639importance of making sure that the Federal Government and the640private sector, which controls so much critical infrastructure641works together on cybersecurity. But the other piece of that642puzzle is to make sure that State and local governments have643the tools they need to work effectively with the Federal644Government and the private sector.645    Would you commit to working with us to reauthorize the646State and local cybersecurity grant program as well?647    Mr. Cairncross. Senator, I think there's no more important648area, or it is extremely important the relationship between the649State and Federal Government on this attack. None of you are650free of those attacks in your States, as you know. Yes, I look651forward to working with you on that issue.652    Senator Hassan. It's not just that we are vulnerable to653attack. It's that most State and local governments simply do654not have the budget or the tools, and sometimes cannot hire the655experts given the shortage of experts in this field around the656country to effectively guard against these attacks. It is657really important that these grants help them do that. Thank658you, Mr. Chair.659    Chairman Paul. Thank you. I would just like to chime in on660the heels of Senator Hassan talking about habeas corpus, that661while I am a Republican, while I am generally supportive of the662administration, the policy, and think Secretary Noem's done a663great job, if there's an attempt to suspend habeas corpus, even664though it's in the Constitution, you will find not only a665wholehearted opposition to it, you will find full throated666opposition to it from me.667    Let us hope that that was an idle comment that is not668repeated, and comments like that are very dangerous. I hope the669person who issued that will think twice before saying things670like that again. Senator Kim.671672                OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR KIM673674    Senator Kim. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Law, I would like to675start with you. We are seeing reports that the acting Federal676Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) director was unaware that677there was a hurricane season, that I have also seen reports678that the hurricane plan was not completed prior to the start of679hurricane season. I just wanted to ask you, does that seem680acceptable to you?681    Mr. Law. Thank you for the question, Senator. I am not682familiar with those reports, but what I can tell you is from my683understanding as senior counselor to the secretary, they are684taking a very critical look at FEMA because it has failed to685operate the way it should. They are definitely focused on that.686    Senator Kim. I guess I would just like to restate this. Do687you think that we should have a FEMA director that understands688when hurricane season begins?689    Mr. Law. I believe that the Secretary has confidence in the690current leadership of FEMA.691    Senator Kim. Do you know when hurricane season starts and692ends?693    Mr. Law. We are currently in hurricane season.694    Senator Kim. And when does it end?695    Mr. Law. I believe it ends sometime in September or696October.697    Senator Kim. It ends at the end of November. I just raise698this because there was no mention of anything about natural699disasters in your opening statement, about the importance that700Homeland Security plays with this, and you are talking about701FEMA. Are you in support of abolishing FEMA? Do you support702some of the statements that the President has made in that703direction?704    Mr. Law. Thank you for the question, Senator. I think the705President and the Secretary have been abundantly clear that706FEMA in its current form is not working. I am up for a policy707position, not an operational role in FEMA. But to the extent708that there are policies relevant to FEMA, I, if confirmed,709would be happy to work with you on those.710    Senator Kim. I mean, you would be in charge of strategy,711policy, and plans. I think having a hurricane plan is very712important. I think having a plan on how to address natural713disasters is very important. I guess I want to ask you, do you714see a role for FEMA and the Department of Homeland Security to715be a focal point when it comes to addressing natural disasters716around the country, or do you think that should be at the State717level?718    Mr. Law. Thank you for the question, Senator. I think719there's always been a role for the State and locals to be the720lead when it comes to natural disasters, and that FEMA plays an721important supporting role. But FEMA has failed to deliver. It's722my understanding that there are still outstanding claims going723all the way back to Hurricane Katrina, and that's just724unacceptable.725    Senator Kim. I do not discount the fact that there are726reforms to be made and problems that exist. But I want to just727redirect you to the primary mission stated in the founding728document of Homeland Security, which says directly that DHS is729acting as a focal point regarding natural and manmade crises730and emergency planning. I just say that because I do not see731this administration taking that aspect of responding to natural732disasters as centrally and important and critically as it733should be.734    I just want to hit that home with you, because if you are735confirmed, I hope that you can commit to working with me and736working with this Committee to making sure that we are737addressing those issues. Can you do that?738    Mr. Law. Thank you for the question, Senator. If confirmed,739of course, I would be happy to work with you on the crisis740management and emergency response efforts of the Department of741Homeland Security.742    Senator Kim. Mr. Cairncross, I wanted to just turn to you,743how are we doing as a nation when it comes to cybersecurity?744How would you kind of rate us in terms of our preparedness?745    Mr. Cairncross. Senator, what I think is these attacks are746increasing, they are becoming more sophisticated, and they are747scaling up. I believe that this office was intended by the748statute to help coordinate and focus that policy.749    Senator Kim. So, you are saying that the threats are750increasing and they are scaling up. Is that right?751    Mr. Cairncross. Correct.752    Senator Kim. Then why is it that the Trump administration753is trying to decrease the staffing and the budget when it comes754to an incredibly important office like CISA?755    Mr. Cairncross. Senator, what I think is this is a756complicated vector, but at its core, this is a human nature757issue. Our enemies do not see a cost in engaging in this758behavior. They impose strategic dilemmas on us, and they have759now for a long period of time, it's time that we impose those760dilemmas on them.761    Senator Kim. Yes, I agree with that, but I feel like,762important part of that is to have the staff necessary. I mean,763you are talking about a challenging vector here. I am having a764hard time understanding if threats of cybersecurity are765increasing, as you said, and scaling up, why is our investment766in it going down?767    Mr. Cairncross. Senator, I think a first management768principle for me is that form follows function. I know with769regards to this office, if I am to be confirmed, I am going to770use that principle to make sure that the function we are771serving, which is to defend the United States from these772attacks, to keep our critical infrastructure safe, to keep our773citizens safe--because as we know, these criminals and enemies774target the most vulnerable Americans--that the form that we775take is the most efficient, effective way to service that776mission.777    Senator Kim. I yield back.778    Chairman Paul. Senator Slotkin.779780              OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR SLOTKIN781782    Senator Slotkin. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for783your intervention after Senator Hassan. Welcome to all of you.784I did a confirmation hearing like this many moons ago, a group785one, and I was the only one who got questions. For those of you786who are getting less questions, you are getting off really787easy. And you should thank your fellow peers here on the dais788afterwards.789    Let me start on cybersecurity. As a former Central790Intelligence Administration (CIA) officer I feel like we all791know that cyberattacks are increasing in your own words.792Attacks are increasing, they are becoming more sophisticated,793they are becoming more prevalent. Then with the use of794artificial intelligence (AI), they are becoming much more795smart, much more capable. But if you are confirmed, you will796oversee the single biggest cut in cybersecurity dollars, a $495797million cut to cybersecurity.798    I know that the President has it out for certain members of799the cybersecurity community of his own administration from the800first time. But the truth is, you are cutting programs that801help our State and locals, like the State of Michigan actually802defend against these things, our infrastructure. It's the803really my power companies who have come to me and said, we used804to get quarterly updates from CISA and get a sense of like the805threat picture across the country. Now, we do not have that. We806feel vulnerable.807    I really feel like the United States is in a situation with808cyber, the way we were with terrorism before September 11, 2001809(9/11). Terrorism attacks were happening. Some people watched810them, but they really did not enter in a huge way, the American811consciousness until we had a spectacular attack. I am deeply812worried that we are going to have a spectacular cyberattack,813and you are going to be left holding the bag.814    I mean, you are here. They pulled the nomination of the815other guy on cyber from this panel. You are the head guy. Help816me understand honestly, in a way that speaks to the average817person who's like a principal of a K through 12 school whose818kids' data is being ransomed. How can you justify a nearly $500819million cut on cybersecurity given what you yourself just said?820    Mr. Cairncross. Senator, I think to your point, the vast821majority of cyber defense in this country falls on the private822sector. One of the key elements that I see----823    Senator Slotkin. Not my K through 12 schools, not my public824hospitals, not the utilities.825    Mr. Cairncross. And State and local territorial and tribal826are extremely important as we were chatting about earlier.827    Senator Slotkin. That's what affects the average American,828right? That's what they all know. We have a cyberattack once829every 39 seconds in America. Everyone in this room has had830someone try to get their data.831    Mr. Cairncross. Senator, the University of Michigan, the832healthcare system schools in your State alone, I mean, the833members of this panel have had tens of millions, hundreds of834millions, Florida, I think is over a billion dollars.835    Senator Slotkin. Right. So, explain the cut. Just be honest836about it. You cannot say you care about an increasing and more837sophisticated set of attacks while cutting the very people who838help defend against those attacks. I want to do offensive839cyber. I want to make them feel pain for the Russians and the840Chinese that are launching these attacks. I am there with you.841I will add money there, but you cannot add by subtracting.842    I think we just have to own that, that the petty desires of843the President are going to leave us more vulnerable. You are844going to be the guy--if we have our cyber 9/11, you are going845to be the guy who's sitting there saying, ``Oh, holy crap. We846just cut all this money. I just had all the power go out on the847eastern seaboard. Or the Chinese stole a whole bunch of our848personal data from every hospital and every school.'' Let us849not pretend that a cut actually helps defend against what you850agree is an increasing set of attacks.851    I just want to ask, in my short time, I will leave you852alone, I know, I will move to the next guy. Mr. Percival you853are going to be the general counsel of the Department of854Homeland Security. The Supreme Court of the United States855currently has a court order, multiple court orders with the856Department of Homeland Security. John Roberts, the biggest guy857in the land we have on the Supreme Court has issued those court858orders, and DHS is not complying.859    If you want this job as general counsel, will you comply860with the court orders from the Supreme Court of the United861States?862    Mr. Percival. Thank you, Senator. I have some awareness of863that situation in my role as senior counselor. If confirmed, as864I said, it's this administration's policy to follow court865orders.866    Senator Slotkin. It's not this administration's policy. Can867you agree that right now they are not implementing Supreme868Court orders? You cannot say it's policy if they are not869implementing them.870    Mr. Percival. I absolutely disagree with that. So there's871multiple aspects to facilitating the return of somebody. One of872them is the DHS side of it, which is, we call it eliminating873domestic obstacles to return. If someone shows up at a port of874entry, we would make sure they get in the country. The second875piece would be international negotiations because the876individuals are in the custody of a foreign government. So877that's a State Department piece. DHS does not do foreign878policy, but obviously those are very complicated negotiations.879    Senator Slotkin. Yes, but you cannot say, we have not880negotiated with the country to get them back. The President of881El Salvador where one of these guys is being held, was in the882Oval Office. We have access to this President to facilitate883negotiations. DHS is choosing not to adhere to court orders884from the Supreme Court. You are going to be the lawyer. I know885I am over time, but I would just ask that you please obey the886constitution and the separation of powers, not just Donald887Trump.888    Chairman Paul. Senator Lankford.889890             OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR LANKFORD891892    Senator Lankford. Thank you. Thank you, all the witnesses893and for your commitment to be able to be here and to be able to894do the tasks that the Nation needs and the President's asked895you to be able to do. This a very difficult process. It's a896long process and it's a stressful process, and there's 10897million forms and everyone's invading your privacy to be able898to go through this. Your families have already been through a899lot. It's great to be able to see all your families that are900here as well. But this is a tough process. Thanks for stepping901up into doing it, because we need a lot of help.902    Mr. Cairncross, let me start with you on this, on the903cybersecurity side. In the past last year toward the tail end904of the Biden administration, we had the largest cyber905penetration in the history of our country where the Chinese906invaded our telecom. They got in all systems, they are in DC's907telecom system. It was a massive penetration that has actually908occurred, by the way, that was when full funding was happening.909I know we just had a conversation saying, if you cut funding,910what happens? When there was full funding that occurred.911    What can we do at this point? What would you say are your912priorities stepping in to be able to protect America and our913infrastructure?914    Mr. Cairncross. The first thing I would say, Senator is, in915response to the first part of that, there's nothing that the916President of the United States cares more about than the917protection of American citizens. I am grateful to have his918confidence and the confidence of the White House to be able to919execute in this role.920    What you are talking about, Salt Typhoon.921    Senator Lankford. Correct.922    Mr. Cairncross. Let me add onto the Volt Typhoon,923demonstrates China is without question the single biggest924threat in this domain that we face. What Volt and Salt show--925and Salt was the espionage telecom hack, which is ongoing, and926Volt is a pre-positioning on our critical infrastructure--and927what that demonstrates to the earlier point I was making about928strategic dilemmas, is China is squatting on our critical929infrastructure systems, and they have an ability to exercise930that at a time and place of their choosing. That should be931unacceptable and it is unacceptable.932    I look forward to do everything I can to make sure that our933adversaries, our enemies, and criminals who operate in this934space know that it is not a cost-free endeavor.935    Senator Lankford. Yes. We are all counting on that to be936able to stay engaged on it. I would tell you that all of our937entities come back to me with the same thing. If the Chinese938were to roll in with airplanes and tanks and to be able to939attack us, we expect the United States to be able to step up940and do something.941    If they are coming in the cyber world and they are942attacking us and destroying our infrastructure, we expect the943United States to be able to help us engage in this. So we944anticipate that.945    Mr. Rhodes, I want to ask you a little bit about one of the946issues that's come up several times. Federal law already947requires that if a Federal contractor is in place or948subcontractor, that they do E-Verify for those individuals. We949have now discovered that that was not actually occurring. That950there was just kind of a check the box that you do it. There951was no verify. So, it was all trust, no verify in the process952for our contractors and the subcontractors in the process.953    What would you do to be able to make sure that contractors954and subcontractors are following the law that currently exists955on hiring someone who's not legally present in the country for956a Federal contract?957    Mr. Rhodes. Senator, thank you for the question. I think my958colleagues thank you for the question to me as well. I would959take a hard look at that because I do believe in that. And so,960I think, you know, through the Office of Federal Procurement961Policy, we'll take a look, if confirmed, at how folks are962following that law, and if we need to put stricter regulations963in place and prove the systems that manage that, then we should964do that. I appreciate that question.965    Senator Lankford. We will count on that and we will do some966follow up on it back and forth. Mr. Law, I want to just967highlight something. In the next four years, we have Federation968Internationale de Football Association (FIFA) World Cup, we969have America's 250th birthday, and we have the Olympics coming.970Those are massive events for security. When I visited with DHS971leaders two years ago, we were clearly not ready.972    What has been handed to DHS is not a well-formed plan to be973able to be prepared for the entire world coming here. I am974asking you, how are you going to ramp up for those massive975security events?976    Mr. Law. Thank you for the question, Senator. We also have977the Club World Cup coming up here in due course as well. I978completely agree with you that the plan that we inherited to979prepare for those major events was insufficient when we came in980in January. As senior counselor, I have been working with a lot981of those teams to do that, recognizing where there are982vulnerabilities. Of course, as you know, the President has983tapped Andrew Giuliani, who is incredibly competent and capable984of executing particularly on the FIFA World Cup effort.985    To the extent that there are any policy shortcomings,986whether it is in the security aspect of it, countering the987drone threat as well, or anything to do with the facilitation988of the movement of fans, the teams or, getting immigration989benefits for those to come to enjoy all of those events here in990our great country. I would definitely work with you if991committed to help clear those up and make sure there are sound992policies that make these events all very successful.993    Senator Lankford. OK, we will count on that. Thank you.994    Chairman Paul. I would just like to chime in on the995sporting events. Most of these organizations are very rich. Why996don't we charge them? If we are going to help them, I am fine997for helping them, but the National Football League (NFL) should998pay, FIFA should pay, they all should pay for what the999government does. Nothing's free and we are $2 trillion short.1000Senator Blumenthal.10011002            OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR BLUMENTHAL10031004    Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Mr. Chair. Thank you all for1005being here. Thanks for your willingness to serve and thank you1006to your families as well, who are serving when you do.1007    Mr. Percival, as you well know the President last night1008issued a very broad travel ban. My view is that it may well be1009over broad and blunderbuss, denying our nation energy and1010talents and skills that we need for our economy. Not to mention1011the humanitarian concerns that many of us have. We are still1012analyzing and evaluating this ban, but it strikes me as1013problematic in a number of respects, constitutionally as well1014as in terms of policy.1015    But I want to focus particularly on the impact of one of1016the aspects of this program as it affects our Afghan at risk1017allies who were interpreters and security guards and aided our1018troops and diplomats. My son is one of them. He was a Marine1019Corps Officer in Afghanistan who was greatly aided by his1020interpreter. He brought him over after a couple of years of1021working hard in the system. I have been a champion of the1022Afghan Adjustment Act. I care deeply about these Afghan allies1023who put their lives on the line. They now have targets on their1024back. If they have to go back to Afghanistan, they will be1025tortured and murdered.1026    Several months ago, the administration suspended the United1027States Refugee Admissions Program, which left hundreds of these1028Afghan allies stranded in Pakistan and Qatar having fled the1029Taliban only to get stuck by our apathy in the third country,1030while already engaged in the screening process to come here.1031Now, the administration has suspended all immigrant and non-1032immigrant visas for Afghan nationals pursuant to the travel ban1033that President Trump issued yesterday.1034    Would you agree with me--I hope you will--that we ought to1035first of all make individualized determinations on many of the1036people wanting to come to this country, but specifically1037focusing on our Afghan allies. Shouldn't we allow these people1038to come to the country that they served in Afghanistan and now1039are at risk along with their families of death and torture if1040they are not allowed to come here?1041    Mr. Percival. Thank you, Senator, for the question. First1042of all, thank you to your son for his service. Obviously, the1043American public appreciates that. Honestly, I was getting ready1044for this hearing. I think this just broke last night. I am not1045super familiar with the President's order. My understanding is1046it's under 212(f) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA),1047which I believe the Ninth Circuit just said, exudes deference1048to the President.1049    This is a decision that the President makes. As general1050counsel, if confirmed, my focus would be on providing legal1051advice.1052    Senator Blumenthal. Will you work on making exceptions for1053those allies, mainly from Afghanistan, but possibly other1054countries who in effect provide these services? Because if we1055do not help them now, nobody's going to want to help our troops1056in the future when they are on the ground serving our country1057in other countries.1058    Mr. Percival. If confirmed, Senator, I am happy to continue1059this conversation. Like I said, I am not super familiar with1060the order that was signed last night.1061    Senator Blumenthal. Would you agree with me that people in1062this country who are not citizens, are entitled to due process?1063    Mr. Percival. Senator, I think the discussion about due1064process has gotten a little confusing because due process is1065not a one size fits all. The question is how much process are1066you due? So, depending on your circumstances, the amount of1067process that you are due under the due process clause will vary1068significantly. For example, expedited removal involves a very1069rapid deportation.1070    Senator Blumenthal. But they are entitled to some due1071process. I know that courts make distinctions, but due process1072has a meaning, as you well know. I think it's a yes or no1073answer. Yes, they are entitled due process.1074    Mr. Percival. Whatever process they are due, and that1075that's going to vary significantly, Senator. In some cases, it1076will be very little like, for example, expedited removal.1077    Senator Blumenthal. Isn't it in all cases, yes?1078    Mr. Percival. That's a very categorical statement, Senator.1079    Senator Blumenthal. Sometimes lawyers have to enforce1080rights categorically because we are a great country that1081follows the law. The Constitution says that everybody in this1082country is entitled to fairness and a day in court before an1083impartial and objective tribunal if something significant is1084going to happen to them as a result of government action.1085Wouldn't you agree with that process?1086    Mr. Percival. I do not agree with that statement. That's a1087very categorical description of the due process clause that is1088not consistent with the Supreme Court's decision in Mathews v.1089Eldridge. It really depends whether it's a court or an officer.1090Expedited removal is a very good example of that.1091    Senator Blumenthal. Let me just ask you finally, you had an1092exchange with one of my colleagues here about obeying court1093orders. If FEMA is ordered to rehire people who have been1094terminated, will you obey that court order?1095    Mr. Percival. As I said before, Senator, my understanding1096of this administration's policy is to follow court orders.1097    Senator Blumenthal. If your department is ordered against1098clawing back funds, will you obey that order?1099    Mr. Percival. Senator, this administration's policy is to1100follow court orders.1101    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you.1102    Chairman Paul. Thank you. It's been asked several times1103about CISA and reauthorizing CISA. I think one of the things as1104we looked at, and I think Mr. Cairncross's point as well made,1105that you know, the private sector deals with a lot of cyber1106threats and if anything, it's probably better. If you compare1107sort of the protection of privacy of government, there's been a1108lot of government breaches of data, and maybe not so many, but1109there are breaches everywhere.1110    But I would think maybe the learning curve might be the1111government actually learning from some people in the private1112marketplace. But on reauthorizing this, one of the things that1113President Trump has done, which I think is an extraordinary1114defense of the First Amendment, is to say that government is no1115longer going to be in the business of censorship. Government's1116not going to be meeting with social media companies. CISA's not1117going to be meeting with them. The FBI's not going to be1118meeting with them.1119    There will be no intimidation, there will be no threats.1120There will be no, we are going to use antitrust against you. We1121are going to take away your liability. These were not even1122veiled threats against big companies, against Facebook, against1123Twitter, and I am very proud that President Trump has said no1124more. That that's gone.1125    In order to get policy, though, that we can live under, we1126do not know who the next President will be, we always want to1127try to change the law too. While I am proud of that executive1128action, I will do everything in my power to make sure the CISA1129authorization has a clause in it that states that no government1130resources for CISA will be utilized to diminish in any way1131constitutionally protected speech.1132    Mr. Cairncross, do you have any comment on that or any1133problem with that clause if we insert that into the1134authorities?1135    Mr. Cairncross. I do not have a problem with that, Senator.1136    Chairman Paul. Mr. Law, any comment on it?1137    Mr. Law. I do not. I would echo my colleague here.1138    Chairman Paul. Senator Fetterman.11391140             OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR FETTERMAN11411142    Senator Fetterman. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I know it's like1143we all know what happened per the new administration, and they1144have a much different kind of a view on immigration and the1145border. I actually agree with parts of it. Honestly, I have1146said this publicly, and I will say this again, I believe our1147party did not do a good job with the border, and I was very1148clear on that.1149    Then also I would like to say that I was the lead co-1150sponsor of the Laken Bill as well too. I believe that we can be1151very pro-immigration, but we also have to have a very secure1152border. That puts me in a different place now. Some people did1153not feel like I honored the spirit of immigration. But I1154actually believe that I did.1155    Now, today I am going to continue that part of my1156conversation and my commitment. And that is with Deferred1157Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA). Now we can all agree with1158that. Now, for me now my wife was a former dreamer. My wife was1159a former dreamer. Now I would not have the family that I have,1160if it was not for her. But, she was brought to the country when1161she was seven years old. Of course, and now, Mr. Law, I know we1162all have LexisNexis, and we all know, and I know that you do1163not have a strong opinion for dreamers and DACA.1164    I am not going to turn it into got you theater, because I1165really want to have like a sincere conversation here in our1166brief time we are here. For example, I am trying to understand1167why punishing dreamers that were brought here as children here1168in this country now, why there's not a path for citizenship,1169why when they are making these kinds of important contributions1170here to our Nation.1171    And it's like, can we only just be punitive and vengeful1172about immigration? Why we cannot even acknowledge that that1173could be part of something very positive thing for our nation?1174    Mr. Law. Thank you for the question, Senator. Thank you for1175your support of border security as well as the Laken Riley Act.1176I would also like to thank you for a leading role in combating1177antisemitism that has just exploded in recent times. To this1178specific question of illegal aliens receiving a path to1179citizenship. That is solely the purview of Congress.1180    The most notable legislative opportunity that I am familiar1181with is known as the Dream Act. It's my understanding that that1182Bill has gone before the Congress numerous times, and every1183single time it has failed.1184    Senator Fetterman. But personally, any of you in front of1185us here today, do any of you perhaps could consider or maybe1186support something like that legislative solution for dreamers?1187    Mr. Law. Thank you for the question, Senator. I think it is1188the purview of the lawmakers to pass legislation and present1189those to the President. Thus far it's been my understanding1190that that Bill has failed to obtain the votes necessary to make1191it to the White House.1192    Senator Fetterman. For me, because it just continually just1193seems to like it's difficult to, you know, two things must be1194true, a secure border but then now and we also can celebrate1195immigration as well too. Now for me, we had a young person1196named Georgia Ximena, and she was just pulled over and it was1197actually the wrong car. Of course, she was a dreamer and now1198she could be looking at a possible situation of being deported1199for that. She was brought here as a young child. I am not1200really sure it's American to punish a person who is living her1201best life and making significant contributions to our nation to1202be punished for a decision for a parent when they were five,1203six, seven, eight years at that point.1204    I do not believe that it's an American way to just put them1205in like a permanent kind of purgatory, where always worrying1206about looking over their shoulder that now, the next single1207time, then they could be de deported. They are being paid for1208sins that they were not a part of that thing. I am hopeful, and1209I am saying it now publicly today, again, somebody as a1210Democrat committed to a secure border, why can't we deliver a1211solution for our dreamers?1212    Because immigration is part of America's superpower and1213it's made us much stronger and better. Two things must be true1214at the same time. Now, thank you. My time has expired, and1215thank you for answering my questions.1216    Chairman Paul. Senator Hawley.12171218              OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HAWLEY12191220    Senator Hawley. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.1221Congratulations to all the nominees. Thank you for being here.1222    Mr. Cairncross, let me just start with you if I could. One1223of the most pressing, but I think also one of the most1224overlooked vulnerabilities when it comes to our national1225cybersecurity posture is the crisis facing our rural hospitals.1226I say this as somebody in a State where 40 percent of the1227hospitals in Missouri are rural hospitals. Many of these1228hospitals have no full-time cybersecurity personnel. They1229cannot afford it. They do not have the personnel for it, they1230do not have the budget for it. And that makes them easy targets1231for cyber criminals, for ransomware gangs, and even sometimes1232for nation-state actors.1233    As you can appreciate, when these hospitals are attacked,1234it's not just their information technology (IT) systems that go1235offline, it's cancer treatments, it's surgeries that gets1236canceled, it's emergency care that gets disrupted. Let me just1237ask you, are you familiar generally with this issue and the1238plight that rural hospitals face in this regard?1239    Mr. Cairncross. I am, Senator, and I was saying earlier,1240these criminals and our enemies are targeting the most1241vulnerable Americans, and it's got to stop.1242    Senator Hawley. Let me ask you, how would you use your1243position to help shore up the cyber defenses of rural hospitals1244and the broader healthcare sector's vulnerability in critical1245infrastructure when it comes to this issue?1246    Mr. Cairncross. Sure. The first thing is getting my feet on1247the ground, working with you, working with all your offices in1248your States to ensure that I am hearing and understand what1249those needs are. Then I am using, if I am confirmed, the1250position as the lead coordinator for the U.S. Government cyber1251policy to make sure that they have the defenses that they need.1252    Senator Hawley. Good. Let me tell you about something that1253we have been doing on our end. The last Congress, this1254Committee unanimously advanced my bipartisan bill, the Rural1255Hospital Cybersecurity Enhancement Act. Ranking Member Peters1256and I co-sponsored it with many others on this Committee. It1257directed the development of a comprehensive cybersecurity1258strategy for rural hospitals.1259    It would also have directed instructional materials and1260resources to be made available to these hospitals because1261again, they do not have the budget for consultants, they do not1262have the budget for people to come in and do this for them.1263Does that sound like the kind of approach that you would be1264willing to work with us on?1265    Mr. Cairncross. It does, and I look forward to working with1266you and your team on it.1267    Senator Hawley. Fantastic. I will take you up on that. I1268think it's absolutely vital for my State and for the many rural1269hospitals in my State.1270    Let me shift gears a little bit and talk about foreign1271hackers in a different context. The threat that's already1272inside the wire where State-sponsored cyber actors embedding1273themselves in our infrastructure systems. We have been told we1274already have in our telecom system, this is the Salt Typhoon1275issue. We already have hackers who are embedded.1276    In your assessment, how vulnerable are our critical systems1277to these kind of State-sponsored infiltration campaigns?1278    Mr. Cairncross. Senator, what I was saying is these attacks1279are scaling up and they are becoming more sophisticated. So1280what really is key, since so much of cyber defense falls on the1281private sector in our country, is a great relationship between1282the United States government and the private sector. That1283involves going to them and listening and figuring out what is1284the barrier to a smooth and efficient and effective defense?1285    In some cases, that is working on a regulatory scheme that1286makes sense. It's incentivizing information flow, and it's1287using the comparative advantage of the United States1288government, which can illuminate the battlefield for the1289private sector and leveraging those assets.1290    Senator Hawley. Let me just ask you about what can be done1291in the way of remediation, which is kind of a fancy word for1292kicking these foreign actors out of our telecom system. I do1293not think the American people realize, in fact, I am sure they1294do not. They do not realize the extent to which our current1295telecom system has been deeply compromised. I will just tell1296you, Members of Congress were told a year ago now, not even a1297year ago, that we should just expect that our telephone1298conversations, any unencrypted text messages are being1299monitored constantly by foreign actors. Our voice messages may1300well be read. That's not because there's special access to1301Members of Congress. It's just because that's where foreign1302actors would choose to concentrate.1303    If a foreign actor chose to concentrate on any member of1304the audience here, what we were told behind closed doors, of1305course, but what we were told is, is that foreign actors1306basically have unlimited access to our voice messages, to our1307telephone calls. This is astounding. The American people do not1308realize it because the American people have not been told, this1309has been kept from them. They are sitting, these foreign actors1310are sitting right now, they are sitting in our telecom system,1311in our exchanges.1312    What are we going to do to get them out of there and1313protect the American people who right now are sitting ducks and1314frankly, they have not been told the truth?1315    Mr. Cairncross. Yes, Senator, I think that that is correct.1316I think you are right that the American public is largely1317unaware of the scale of this issue. This is not an IT issue.1318This is an operational issue. It manifests in real life and it1319has real potentially life and death consequences. As I have1320said over and over again, they are targeting the most1321vulnerable among us, along with our telecom system.1322    Volt Typhoon was critical infrastructure. They are1323squatting on our system. It is imposing, as I have said, a1324strategic dilemma on us. That behavior needs to change. In1325order to do that, I believe we should begin to impose strategic1326dilemmas on our adversaries in this domain.1327    Senator Hawley. That would certainly be a good start. Thank1328you, Mr. Chair.1329    Chairman Paul. Time has expired. Senator Peters.1330    Senator Peters. Thank you, Mr. Chair. First of all, on1331April 4th, the DHS announced that it was permanently canceling1332the Building Resilient Infrastructure and Communities (BRIC)1333program, including canceling funding for projects that are1334actually currently in progress. Just basically pulled the plug1335from them. These projects are critical for communities to1336reduce their risk before a disaster strikes.1337    As a result, we have a tornado shelter, for example, in1338Salem Township, Michigan that may not be finished,1339construction's begun, but it's being just pulled out, which1340does not seem really thoughtful use of taxpayer dollars to do1341it halfway and then pull out and stop a project. Then if you1342look at resilience projects, generally, they tend to save1343taxpayer money. To build it stronger upfront is a lot cheaper1344than fixing it later.1345    My question for you, sir is, if confirmed, do you commit to1346following the law, which I have heard you say that you will do1347many times, and reinstate these illegally canceled funding from1348Congress that's appointed to the BRIC program? Because1349following the law would to reinstate that funding.1350    Mr. Percival. Thank you for the question, Senator. I know1351we have talked about this before, so I have not been super1352involved in that in my role as senior counselor, but I would1353respectfully push back on the suggestion that DHS has violated1354the law. I have a general understanding of the Impoundment Act1355and the various options that DHS has.1356    If confirmed, I would be happy to dig into that for you,1357but I do not have the same understanding that you do that DHS1358has violated the law.1359    Senator Peters. Do you believe that appropriations by1360Congress are law?1361    Mr. Percival. Yes, Senator, I do. My understanding of the1362Impoundment Act is when you have an appropriation and a new1363administration comes in, if they want to revisit programs and1364change them within the scope of the existing appropriation,1365they have the right to do that. They can also, in some1366circumstances do a reprogramming. Then the third option is to1367follow the procedures of the Impoundment Act that I am sure you1368are aware of. Those are sort of the three options. That's my1369understanding,1370    Senator Peters. But just canceling outright is not1371following the law.1372    Mr. Percival. That would depend Senator on whether there is1373some other plan to obligate those funds within the scope of the1374appropriation within the relevant fiscal year.1375    Senator Peters. I am not aware of any just to basically1376pulling the plug on all these projects. Very clear, Congress,1377we pass the law, appropriations are laws, and the President has1378to faithfully execute the laws of the land. And that's not1379happening.1380    Mr. Percival. Again, Senator, my understanding is that DHS1381is following applicable laws and if confirmed, that's what I1382would do.1383    Senator Peters. Mr. Rhodes, reports indicate that agencies1384across the Federal Government have procured Palantir's1385technology to create a master database of Americans personal1386data. I am certainly alarmed by these reports to have the1387master database. I would suspect the Chair would be concerned1388about that as well. The potential disregard for the law as well1389as the privacy and civil liberties of Americans to have this1390large database.1391    My question for you is, do you think it's appropriate for1392the Federal Government to purchase technology for the purpose1393of consolidating massive data about Americans?1394    Mr. Rhodes. Senator, I appreciate the question. I do not1395have any knowledge of that database by Palantir. I would have1396to look into that.1397    Senator Peters. If confirmed, when you look into that,1398would you have concerns based on what I have just said?1399    Mr. Rhodes. If confirmed, again, I would take a look into1400that and like my colleagues, I would follow all the laws that1401are applicable. But I would have to take a look.1402    Senator Peters. Another question for you. Companies of1403current and former DOGE members have received hundreds of1404millions of dollars in Federal contracts. However, agencies1405have refused to share information about these individuals and1406their particular involvement in the Federal procurement and1407acquisition process. This certainly leaves open the potential1408for fraud, waste, abuse.1409    My question for you is, if confirmed, will you commit to1410reviewing and providing this Committee information about DOGE'S1411involvement specifically in Federal procurement?1412    Mr. Rhodes. Senator, thank you for the question. If1413confirmed, I will follow all conflict of interest regulations1414and laws I have followed in my entire time in the military. If1415confirmed, I will do the same.1416    Senator Peters. Specifically, what steps will you take to1417increase transparency into the acquisition process?1418    Mr. Rhodes. Senator, I appreciate that question. I am a1419transparent and direct individual and so I believe that as we1420do contracts and Federal procurement, those should be available1421to the public as----1422    Senator Peters. What steps would you take specifically?1423    Mr. Rhodes. One of the steps, Senator, that I would take is1424to ensure that the information is available following all1425regulations that are in place so that they get posted. There1426are systems that allow that information to be put out there1427that we have currently. I would ensure that we continue to do1428so.1429    Senator Peters. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.1430    Chairman Paul. Thank you all for appearing today. I think1431the hearing's gone very well. I think you can take the message1432back to the Secretary that I think the country at large is very1433pleased with the control of the border. Amazing it happened1434without legislation, without new appropriation. I understand1435there will be some new appropriation needed. I would also take1436back to the department though, that your math does not add up1437on the wall. $46.5 billion for the wall.1438    Currently, on the U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP)1439website, it says it's costing about $6.5 million per mile. If1440you do 1,000 more miles, that's $6.5 billion. So, you are1441asking for enough to do 8,000 miles, so it does not add up.1442It's also been noted that a third of the border is now under1443the control and surveillance of sonar towers that Anduril's1444putting up. I am a big believer in that.1445    I think it's actually a less expensive way. You do that and1446combine it with helicopters, you can probably patrol the1447border--you already are doing a good job now, but you can1448probably add another layer to it within months simply with the1449sonar towers and helicopters. While I am for some more money, I1450think it's still asking for too much and the math does not add1451up.1452    Most of that, you know, there's 1,200 miles left. We will1453be lucky to put fence on a thousand. We are probably going to1454put fence on less than that. We ought to be open-minded to1455other things like the sonar towers and other technologies. Some1456of that's pretty immediate too. You do not have to wait years1457to build a wall. You immediately can put it up and begin1458defending the border. But by and large, I think the President's1459done a great job.1460    I think really, whether you are Republican, independent or1461Democrat, people want criminals, to be captured. They want to1462be safe. They are horrified by the people who have been killed1463by people who are illegally in the country. Even if only one1464percent of the people came in were criminals, there's like1465maybe eight million people came in in the last couple years,1466that would be 80,000 people roaming around that are criminals.1467It probably would be one percent.1468    I do compliment the President and Secretary for doing it.1469Still very interested in the speech thing. I hope you will take1470that back, that we are going to try to get that into law. What1471the President is doing to protect free speech is amazing,1472needed, shouldn't be partisan, but we would really like to make1473it part of law. But thank you for your testimony.1474    The nominees have all filed responses\1\ to biographical1475and financial questionnaires.\2\ They have answered pre-hearing1476questions submitted by the Committee\3\ and had their financial1477statements reviewed by the Office of Government Ethics1478(OGE).\4\ Additionally, the Committee has received letters of1479support for the nominees.1480    Without objection, this information will made part of the1481hearing record\5\ with the exception of the nominees' financial1482data, which are on file with the Committee.1483---------------------------------------------------------------------------1484    \1\ The information for Mr. Cairncross appears in the Appendix on1485page 29.1486    \2\ The information for Mr. Law appears in the Appendix on page 82.1487    \3\ The information for Mr. Rhodes appears in the Appendix on page1488139.1489    \4\ The information for Mr. Woodruff appears in the Appendix on1490page 186.1491    \5\ The information for Mr. Percival appears in the Appendix on1492page 236.1493---------------------------------------------------------------------------1494    The hearing record will remain open until noon tomorrow,1495June 6th. Thank you all for your time. The meeting is1496adjourned.1497    [Whereupon, at 10.43 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]14981499                            A P P E N D I X15001501                              ----------15021503[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]15041505                                 [all]