S.Hrg.119-184

1[Senate Hearing 119-184]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                                                        S. Hrg. 119-18456                   SCAMMERS EXPOSED: PROTECTING OLDER7                             AMERICANS FROM8                      TRANSNATIONAL CRIME NETWORKS910=======================================================================1112                                HEARING1314                               BEFORE THE1516                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY17                          UNITED STATES SENATE1819                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2021                             FIRST SESSION2223                               __________2425                             JUNE 17, 20252627                               __________2829                          Serial No. J-119-233031                               __________3233         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary3435[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]3637                        www.judiciary.senate.gov38                            www.govinfo.gov3940                                __________4142                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE4361-841                      WASHINGTON : 20264445-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------4647                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY4849                  CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa, Chairman50LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina    RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois,51JOHN CORNYN, Texas                       Ranking Member52MICHAEL S. LEE, Utah                 SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island53TED CRUZ, Texas                      AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota54JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri                CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware55THOM TILLIS, North Carolina          RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut56JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana              MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii57MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee          CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey58ERIC SCHMITT, Missouri               ALEX PADILLA, California59KATIE BOYD BRITT, Alabama            PETER WELCH, Vermont60ASHLEY MOODY, Florida                ADAM B. SCHIFF, California6162             Kolan Davis, Chief Counsel and Staff Director63         Joe Zogby, Democratic Chief Counsel and Staff Director6465                            C O N T E N T S6667                              ----------6869                           OPENING STATEMENTS7071                                                                   Page7273Grassley, Hon. Charles E.........................................     174Durbin, Hon. Richard J...........................................     27576                               WITNESSES7778Bercu, Joshua M..................................................     779    Prepared statement...........................................    2380    Responses to written questions...............................    4581Finta, Brady.....................................................     982    Prepared statement...........................................    2883    Responses to written questions...............................    4784Gunther, Jilenne.................................................     685    Prepared statement...........................................    3086    Responses to written questions...............................    5087Helm, April......................................................     588    Prepared statement...........................................    4289    Responses to written questions...............................    529091                                APPENDIX9293Items submitted for the record...................................    559495                   SCAMMERS EXPOSED: PROTECTING OLDER96                             AMERICANS FROM97                      TRANSNATIONAL CRIME NETWORKS9899                              ----------100101                         TUESDAY, JUNE 17, 2025102103                              United States Senate,104                                Committee on the Judiciary,105                                                    Washington, DC.106    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:37 a.m., in107Room 226, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Charles E.108Grassley, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.109    Present: Senators Grassley [presiding], Blackburn, Moody,110Durbin, Whitehouse, Klobuchar, and Hirono.111112        OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. CHARLES E. GRASSLEY,113             A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF IOWA114115    Chairman Grassley. Good morning, everybody. We are here116today because the scam threat is real. We are all potential117victims. The perpetrators are getting more bold, more ruthless,118and more global by the day. Transnational organized crime119groups are targeting all of us with industrial-scale fraud.120These aren't small-time lone wolf crooks. They are121sophisticated criminal networks operating with precision across122the borders. They exploit technology, including artificial123technology, and are draining billions of dollars from124Americans' households.125    The Federal Trade Commission estimates that scammers stole126$158 billion from Americans in 2023. Almost $62 billion of that127was stolen from our senior citizens. Sixty-two billion dollars128would fund the entire Department of Justice for a year and a129half. It would fund all public university tuition for U.S.130undergraduates for a year, so we are talking about a lot of131money.132    So where is it going? Transnational crime networks are133using American dollars for drug trafficking, human trafficking,134arms trafficking, and other evil projects along that line.135According to a 2023 Gallup poll, scams are Americans' second136highest crime concern just after fear of identity theft. Nearly137half of Americans say that they have encountered a cyber attack138or a digital scam attempt. Eight percent of U.S. adults, that139is 21 million Americans, were scammed in the past year. That140means more than 57,000 Americans are being scammed each day.141    Scammers are extremely convincing, and their tactics are142very effective. Calls from foreign countries appear on cell143phones at the local bank branch number, the local police144department, or another trusted entity. Artificial intelligence145needs just 17 words of a person's real voice to create an146entire script that sounds like that individual. So it is147believable, then, when a caller that sounds just like your148child or grandchild claims to need a few thousand dollars after149an at-fault car accident or for some other reason.150    There is a scam out there designed to entrap each of us.151Americans are pressured, coerced, coaxed, encouraged, or even152romanced into emptying their savings, draining their153retirement, and wiring funds to accounts controlled by criminal154organizations in other countries.155    Crime groups in Nigeria are known for internet scams, and156crime groups in India are known for tech support scams. Chinese157gangs run scam centers in Southeast Asia where trafficked158individuals are often forced to carry out scam efforts. Those159scams affect all Americans.160    We focus this hearing on older Americans for a few reasons.161First, older folks are suffering over a third of all scam162losses. They often have accumulated more wealth than younger163Americans, so they have more to lose.164    Second, seniors belong to a generation that is more likely165to answer the phone and is more likely to experience loneliness166and isolation directly related to age.167    Lastly, financial exploitation increases the risk of both168physical and mental health issues, particularly for older169people. People who have been scammed often experience shame,170anxiety, depression, and post-traumatic stress. They also have171an increased risk of suicidal thoughts and actions.172    This isn't just a call to protect the elderly. It is a call173to defend our country's integrity, its financial security, and174a moral obligation to protect the innocent.175    Before I call on Senator Durbin, we are going to have a 2-176minute video demonstrating what we all know is going on.177    Proceed with the video, please.178    [Video is shown.]179    Chairman Grassley. Senator Durbin.180181         OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD J. DURBIN,182           A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS183184    Senator Durbin. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.185    I want to apologize initially for being late for the186hearing. We had a bipartisan briefing this morning that187Senators Thune and Schumer sponsored to discuss the horrific188assassination of elected officials in Minnesota over the189weekend, and also the experience of a Member of this190Subcommittee, Senator Padilla, in Los Angeles last Friday. It191was a sobering presentation on the question of the192assassination and the vulnerability of many people in public193life today. I would say that it calls for action, and this194Committee is going to be at the heart of it. We are responsible195for oversight for the Department of Justice, Department of196Homeland Security, and I believe that we will be called on to197consider legislation on this subject in a very timely fashion,198so that is the reason I was late. It certainly is no disrespect199for the important topic we are discussing.200    The amount of fraud perpetrated against older Americans is201overwhelming. According to the FBI, people age 60 and older202reported $4.9 billion--that is billion--stolen through fraud203with an average loss of $83,000 last year, up 43 percent from204the previous year. Elder fraud is a growing threat, and it205frequently goes unreported, as the Chairman said because of the206victim's fear, embarrassment, or lack of resources. New207technologies like cryptocur-rency ATMs pose a heightened risk208for older Americans. We are considering a cryptocurrency209regulation bill on the floor today. We may even vote on it210today. Many of us had amendments that we wanted to offer.211Unfortunately, no amendments will be allowed by any Member of212the Senate, no amendments. My amendment was to regulate the213safety of crypto ATMs.214    What are crypto ATMs? They are machines you may find in a215grocery store or a shop where you do business, and it looks216like you can buy a Bitcoin, and that is all there is to it.217There is much more to the story. Crypto ATMs look like a218regular ATM you find in gas stations, grocery stores. The big219difference is that instead of depositing money with your bank,220a crypto ATM allows customers to purchase cryptocurrency,221something called a Bitcoin.222    These crypto ATMs have become a favorite tool of scammers223because once a victim purchases crypto and transfers it to a224criminal's digital wallet, it is virtually impossible to trace225or recover.226    These scammers might be using new technology, but they are227following a very old playbook. They call their victim and228pretend to be from the victim's bank, or they impersonate a229government official. They may announce to the victim that they230missed jury duty, and because of it, they have to pay a fine,231and to avoid a trial and a fine, they go to a Bitcoin machine232and deposit thousands of dollars. Sounds impossible, happens233all the time. They may say the victim owes money for skipping234jury duty or needs to bail a loved one out of jail.235    It happened to my wife. She got a call from our grandson,236and she was supposed to send money quickly because he had been237in an auto accident. She called me and said, what do you think238I should do? And I said, let me ask our grandson, who is239standing next to me, whether he was in an auto accident, and240the answer, obviously, was no, it was a scam.241    They tell their victims all they need to do to make the242problem go away is to pay a fine or a fee using the nearest243crypto ATM. The scammer walks them through every step. Put in244your money, buy your crypto, send it to the scammer's wallet.245    Crypto ATM scams led to nearly $247 million in losses in2462024, 31 percent increase over the previous year. And make no247mistake, the crypto ATM companies know that their machines are248involved in this fraud. One crypto ATM operator, Bitcoin Depot,249wrote in an SEC filing, ``Our products and services may be250exploited to facilitate illegal activity such as fraud, money251laundering, gambling, tax evasion, and scams.'' That is a252stunning admission in their own corporate product.253    But it gets worse. I don't want this to be personal, but I254want the Chairman to know it. An investigation by Iowa's own255attorney general found over 98 percent of the money that the256people in Iowa reported sending through Bitcoin Depot was part257of scam transactions, 98 percent. Can you imagine? Crypto ATMs258aren't being exploited. They are being used as indicated and259misused, obviously, over and over again.260    And cryptocurrency in general are also increasingly used261for fraud. In 2024, the FBI reported crypto-related crimes up26266 percent. Americans lost $9.3 billion to crypto scammers,263nearly 150,000 complaints filed involving crypto fraud,264including more than 6,000 complaints in my own home State, and265more than a third of all crypto fraud complaints filed by266Americans over the age of 50.267    Statistics alone can't paint a complete picture. In268Illinois, an elderly woman with MS lost $40,000, her entire269life savings. The woman could not get around very well. The270scammer even called an Uber car to pick her up and drive her to271the local crypto ATM. This heart-wrenching story and many more272like it are the reason I introduced the Crypto ATM Fraud273Prevention Act with Senators Blumenthal, Reed, and Welch. It274would require crypto ATM operators to register with financial275regulators, warn customers about scams, and create transaction276limits so that customers won't lose their life savings. The277bill also would require operators to refund new customers who278have been defrauded.279    We have got to do more to protect the people who send us280here to do this job, particularly vulnerable older Americans.281For God's sake, they paid their dues, they went to work, they282saved up meager savings and maybe have a little Social Security283on the side, and they barely get by. To be ripped off by one of284these frauds has got to be beyond embarrassing. It could be285completely destructive of their lifestyle. I stand ready to286work with Senator Grassley and my colleagues to address this287issue.288    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.289    Chairman Grassley. Yes, thank you very much.290    Now, I would like to introduce our witnesses.291    Ms. April Helm, the daughter of a romance scam victim and a292founding board member of a nonprofit called Advocating Against293Romance Scammers. Following her mother's tragic death, Ms. Helm294has dedicated her life to spreading awareness about romance295scams and helping those victims. She is also host to a podcast296called Scammer Stories, where she has interviewed over 100297people from all walks of life who have experienced scams.298    Ms. Jilenne Gunther, the national director of AARP's299BankSafe Initiative, a comprehensive intervention platform that300equips the financial services industry to prevent and stop301financial exploitation of older adults. In her work, she302engages frontline employees at banks, credit unions, investment303firms, retailers, and other providers of financial products and304services. Under her guidance, AARP's BankSafe Initiative has305trained 1 in 10 financial industry frontline employees who have306saved older adults more than $100 million from exploitation.307Ms. Gunther holds a JD degree from University of Utah, master's308degree in social work from Washington University in St. Louis.309    After Ms. Gunther, we have Joshua Bercu, the executive310director of the Industry Traceback Group and vice president of311policy and advocacy at USTelecom, the broadband association.312Through the Traceback Group, Mr. Bercu leads an effort to313identify the source and stop illegal calls in his USTelecom314role. He heads USTelecom's policy development and advocacy on315digital trust and consumer protection. Before joining316USTelecom, Mr. Bercu was a partner at the D.C.317Telecommunications Law firm's privacy practice where he worked318on automatic calling-related legal, regulatory, and policy319issues.320    Brady Finta, founder and CEO of the National Elder Fraud321Coordination Center where Mr. Finta served in the FBI for322almost 25 years where his work focused on combating organized323crime, gangs, and child pornography. He also served as324supervisor of the Cross-Border Violence Task Force where he325specialized in transnational organized crime investigations326including kidnappings, murders, cartel finance, and money327laundering. In 2018, he established the FBI's San Diego Elder328Justice Task Force and this year he opened and leads the329National Elder Fraud Coordination Center. The center combats330scams by aggregating and analyzing private and public sector331through an organized crime lens. It ties cases together and332creates high-dollar investigative packages of Federal law333enforcement investigation.334    Now, before you begin your testimony, we swear members at335this hearing, so please rise so I can give the oath.336    [Witnesses are sworn in.]337    Chairman Grassley. They have all answered positively.338    Ms. Helm, start out.339340 STATEMENT OF APRIL HELM, HOST, SCAMMER STORIES PODCAST, BOARD341  MEMBER, ADVOCATING AGAINST ROMANCE SCAMMERS, TULSA, OKLAHOMA342343    Ms. Helm. Thank you, Senator Grassley and Senator Durbin,344for the opportunity to speak with you today. My name is April345Helm. I'm here because my mother, Sherri Tyson, lost $350,000346to a romance scam before her passing in 2020 while undergoing347treatment for late-stage ovarian cancer. It's been a long,348frustrating, and heartbreaking journey that has brought me to349this moment.350    And before I share the details, I want to express just how351surreal it is that I am sitting here with you today. In 2018,352while undergoing cancer treatment, she became even more353isolated, more susceptible. One day, while I was headed to a354football game in my hometown, I received a text from her. It355said, ``I gave all my money away, I have nothing, come get356me.'' I was in shock. She promised, but she had lost her357apartment, her car, everything. I told her she could move in358with me, but on one condition, and that was she couldn't talk359to the scammer in my house. She refused. She couldn't let go of360the fantasy they'd sold her.361    Instead, she moved in with her sister in Mobile, Alabama.362And when that didn't work out, she asked me to come get her so363she could start fresh in Dallas with my brother. We made a plan364to move her that day, but scammers had another plan. One of365their tactics is to keep victims awake all night, exhausted,366and disoriented. That morning, as my aunt and my mother were367preparing to leave, my aunt, who's sitting behind me today,368found her collapsed on the floor. She never made it to Dallas.369I believe with all of my heart that if it weren't for the scam,370I would have seen my mother that day.371    In the early days, there was almost no information online372about these scams. As someone with a background in radio news,373I launched a podcast to investigate, to talk with other374victims, law enforcement, and experts. I've interviewed people375of all ages and professions who were deceived, smart people. A376former CIA agent, she lost $1 million, a son of a marriage377counselor who lost money, a woman who was married to a retired378colonel.379    This crime isn't just happening to the elderly. It is380happening to people my age and younger. A woman my age in381Oklahoma recently made national news because her scam turned382her into a money mule, like many do, and she is now facing up383to 62 years in prison.384    I've interviewed the scammers themselves too. One told me385they like to target Americans because we have money and because386of what we did with slavery.387    Many victims go to local authorities only to be told388there's no crime because they gave their money away. Victims389feel abandoned, penniless, ashamed, and taxed heavily for390withdrawing their retirement savings. Some even take their own391lives under the weight of the despair.392    Today, I serve on the board of Advocating Against Romance393Scammers, a national nonprofit focused on prevention,394education, and advocacy. My mother deserved better. Every395victim does. We urgently need Congress to act to ensure no more396families are shattered by this cruel and complex crime.397    Thank you for your time, and thank you for listening to my398mother's story.399    [The prepared statement of Ms. Helm appears as a submission400for the record.]401    Chairman Grassley. Thank you very much, Ms. Helm.402    [Off mic.]403404STATEMENT OF JILENNE GUNTHER, NATIONAL DIRECTOR, AARP BANKSAFE405              INITIATIVE, AARP, NEW YORK, NEW YORK406407    Ms. Gunther. Good morning. My name is Jilenne Gunther, and408I'm the national director of AARP's BankSafe Initiative. I'm409honored to speak with you today on behalf of more than 100410million Americans aged 50 and older. I have spent my career411working to prevent fraud, starting in a prosecutor's office,412then at the State level in Utah, and now nationally at AARP.413    Congress' work addressing fraud has really opened up414opportunities for prevention, from providing immunity for415reporting fraud when financial institutions train their staff,416to encouraging the sharing of industry-promising practices, and417we are seeing the results.418    AARP's BankSafe program builds on the goals of those laws.419We partner with 1,500 financial institutions to stop420exploitation before the money leaves the account. The free421training we created with the industry, paired with policy422adoption, has helped prevent more than $450 million from ever423being stolen from consumers.424    But this fight is personal. It's in my DNA. My grandfather425was a banker and a victim. In his 90's, someone was taking cash426from his wallet. My uncle, also a banker, noticed the red427flags, and in a move only a banker would think of, he planted a428dye pack in my grandfather's wallet. Our family literally429caught the thief red-handed.430    Most families aren't that lucky. They don't have bankers,431and they don't have dye packs. So that is why I built a program432at the very bank where my grandfather worked so other families433wouldn't have to rely on luck to protect the people they love434because fraud isn't an accident. It's a crime. And it's435happening at a devastating scale. The FTC reports older adults436lose between $7 billion and $62 billion a year. In a blink of437an eye, someone can lose their entire retirement savings.438    The financial industry can be the last line of defense, but439only if we give them the authority to act. Let me tell you a440story about Brittany. She is a young college student working as441a bank teller. After taking AARP's training, she noticed a man442acting strangely. He wanted to withdraw all of his money from443his account, and he kept on going outside to take calls. She444slowed things down, asked the right questions, and she said to445me, I wouldn't have caught it without the BankSafe training.446Her actions protected this man's life savings of $50,000. And447this isn't rare. A study found that Bank Safe-trained staff448saved 16 times more money than those without the BankSafe449training.450    But we are still leaving tools on the table. Today, most451financial institutions can't delay a suspicious transaction452unless their State specifically allows it. Yet, according to453the American Bankers Association, 90 percent of institutions in454those States say holds would be beneficial. A study also455confirmed that delaying and holding transactions like the one456that Brittany used are among the most effective frontline457tools. But there are outdated regulations that really tie the458hands of the very people best positioned to act in real time.459    Meanwhile, criminals are coordinating across telecom, tech,460social media, and the financial industry, while we ask these461same sectors to work in silos. We need a Federal coordinated462response under your leadership to make this happen. That means463empowering financial institutions to delay suspicious464transactions without fear of liability, enabling the real-time465information-sharing of fraud and requiring social media tech466and telecom platforms to become part of the solution, not467hiding places for criminals.468    Australia is already doing this, and it is working. Scam469losses dropped 43 percent after they launched a national470response. And this isn't just about stopping theft. It is about471protecting trust, preventing negative impacts to business and472government, and ensuring the independence of adults in the473final years of their life.474    Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.475    [The prepared statement of Ms. Gunther appears as a476submission for the record.]477    Chairman Grassley.478    [Off mic.]479480  STATEMENT OF JOSHUA M. BERCU, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, INDUSTRY481TRACEBACK GROUP, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT, USTelecom, WASHINGTON,482                              D.C.483484    Mr. Bercu. Chairman Grassley, Ranking Member Durbin,485Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to486testify today and for your leadership on this critical issue.487Your continued partnership is vital to sustaining the488vigilance, innovation, and coordination we need to fight the489scammers exploiting the American people.490    I'm Josh Bercu, executive director of the Industry491Traceback Group, or ITG, the FCC-designated entity to traceback492unlawful robocalls, and senior vice president at USTelecom. I493have also served on the Aspen Institute's Task Force for Fraud494and Scam Prevention and the FTC's Scams Against Older Adults495Advisory Group.496    The communications industry has been making meaningful497progress confronting scam robocalls. We've deployed tools like498call blocking and labeling, stir/shaken call authentication,499and traceback. We are leveraging these tools in the fight500against ever more personalized fraud schemes. Traceback helps501us identify the actors behind fraud calls and has supported502dozens of civil and criminal enforcement actions at every level503of government. We know the combination of identifying bad504actors responsible, including through traceback, and then505holding them accountable works.506    A couple stats here. Raids of Indian call centers in 2016507led to an overnight 85 percent drop in IRS scam robocalls. And508a similar Canada-India crackdown in 2018 led to a 77 percent509decline in similar calls to Canadians.510    Today, thanks to coordinated action by industry and511government, many of the most disruptive, high-volume scam calls512no longer reach vulnerable Americans at the same scale. Indeed,513scam robocalls are down over 50 percent from their 2021 peak.514But today's fraudsters aren't blasting millions of robocalls515impersonating the IRS or Social Security Administration. They516are targeting individuals with live calls and finely tuned517deception. They spoof bank numbers and pose as fraud teams.518They impersonate loved ones and local officials to steal from519their victims. And as we have already heard today, in the case520of older adults, they can rip away what their victims spent a521whole life building.522    We are not powerless against these devastating scams. It523used to take law enforcement months to determine who made an524illegal call. And now through ITG tracebacks, we often find525those criminals within hours or days. That speed and526scalability allow us to keep pace with today's fast-moving527fraud.528    In recent years, we have proactively expanded our work529beyond telecom. Our collaborative cross-sector partnerships530have broad tracebacks reach and relevance as a tool for531disruption. And they could be a difference maker in building532actionable criminal cases. While we can't undo what's been533done, we can go after the bad guys and prevent further harm.534    The threat of foreign actors exploiting U.S. networks is535not new, but their tactics are evolving. Increasingly, we trace536calls to foreign actors posing as U.S.-based entities, forming537shell LLCs, and in some cases, impersonating real companies,538all tactics designed to evade scrutiny. Criminal enforcement539remains essential to deter these groups that are orchestrating540these scams.541    Some tactics, like SIM Box, SIM Box is used to route calls542from abroad, require actors to be present in the U.S., creating543a rare opportunity for enforcement. Turning that vulnerability544into a point of disruption and deterrence should be a clear545priority.546    We're responding aggressively, but we cannot make arrests547or prosecute the criminals even when we identify them. That's548where we need government support. There are three things549Congress can do that would make a meaningful difference.550    First, establish a national anti-scam strategy with a551designated Federal lead or task force. We need a coordinated552Federal response, and we need to treat scams as what they are,553crimes. Our strategy must prioritize cross-border criminal554enforcement.555    Second, provide a safe harbor for improved fraud prevention556and detection. Emerging partnerships across industry sectors557are showing real promise in identifying and disrupting scams. A558well-scoped safe harbor could unlock deeper collaboration.559    Third, support and scale what works. As scams evolve, we560need to double down on tools and partnerships that have shown561real results.562    While we have made progress, fraud continues to take a563toll. We must now focus on turning progress into impact,564helping to deter, disrupt, and penalize fraud, ensuring the565criminals can't target another victim.566    Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.567    [The prepared statement of Mr. Bercu appears as a568submission for the record.]569    Chairman Grassley.570    [Off mic.]571572STATEMENT OF BRADY FINTA, FOUNDER AND CEO, NATIONAL ELDER FRAUD573           COORDINATION CENTER, OCEANSIDE, CALIFORNIA574575    Mr. Finta. Good morning, Senators. There was a time not576long ago when Americans felt comfortable answering the phone577and talking to strangers. We weren't suspicious of every number578we didn't already know and skeptical that every text or email579might be an elaborate scheme to steal from us.580    Fraud has become ubiquitous in our country. For hundreds of581thousands of older Americans every year, it has a life-altering582effect, causing them to lose their life savings, damage their583mental and physical health, withdraw from society, and even to584commit suicide. As the Chairman said, the FTC estimated losses585just to our elders at over $62 billion a year. Some of these586losses include both of my parents.587    Where does it go? Transnational organized crime groups588overseas, some in countries who are our Nation's adversaries.589This is a national security threat we as a country are not590effectively mitigating. It's most clearly manifest in the591annual statistics from both the FBI and FTC that show dramatic592increases year after year, particularly among our elders. I'm593unaware of any other crime which victimizes a particular594demographic of Americans at these levels.595    I think it's time to admit that what we're doing is not596enough to stop or even slow the progression of this crime. We597have to do something more dramatic. I'd like to make some598recommendations on things our government could do to address599this enormous problem.600    First, we should better leverage America's private sector601efforts. Fortunately, many of America's companies already have602capable anti-fraud and vulnerable persons programs, and they603are highly skilled at using this data to uncover fraud. But604these companies have only a small piece of the elder fraud605puzzle. And this puzzle among companies is not getting put606together on a regular basis. The same is true with law607enforcement. Agencies are not sharing information enough, and608even different departments in the same agencies aren't sharing609enough.610    Next, we should build a network of elder justice task611forces across America, EJTFs. As a Nation, we have created task612forces to combat internet crimes against children, terrorists,613drug trafficking, and gangs, but not to counter those criminal614organizations victimizing our parents and grandparents at an615epidemic level. The power to change this dynamic is within our616grasp by creating these task forces and teaming them up with617the public sector.618    Historically, State and local law enforcement had little or619no role in investigating transnational organized elder fraud620cases. However, their investigative resources are crucial in621the solution to this problem because there is just not enough622Federal agents to adequately counter this threat. Combining623these resources will allow for more mutually supporting624investigations across the country, as well as prosecution of625co-conspirators committing State crimes. This would create the626capacity to better handle the enormous number of complaints.627Linking the work of these EJTFs and some national oversight628would make more effective and efficient mitigation.629    We should build a support network for these EJTFs. Each one630would need the support of a law enforcement coordination center631in that region, aggregating and analyzing the elder fraud632complaints collected by the various law enforcement agencies in633that area and combine them with complaints from Adult634Protective Services, IC3, FTC, and the like. These leads can be635analyzed, prioritized, and used to initiate substantial636investigations. Proof of this concept lies within the San Diego637Elder Justice Task Force and the Elder Justice Coordination638Center that supports that task force.639    Once created, these EJTFs would have the support and the640resources of the National Elder Fraud Coordination Center, a641clearinghouse designed to aggregate and analyze and elevate the642efforts of the private sector. Coupling the EJTFs with this643coordination center would give America's companies the ability644to contribute at scale to the elder fraud fight and allow for645law enforcement to develop bigger, more impactful646investigations faster. Building this network would be a massive647first step in bending the curve of elder fraud in America,648keeping billions in the accounts of older Americans and inside649the U.S. economy.650    Thank you for your time. I look forward to answering your651questions.652    [The prepared statement of Mr. Finta appears as a653submission for the record.]654    Chairman Grassley. I thank each of you for your testimony,655and I will start, and then Senator Durbin, and back and forth656that way, 5 minutes each.657    Mr. Finta, requiring fast and efficient sharing of data and658intelligence is very important. What are the biggest breakdowns659in information-sharing between Federal, State, and local660agencies when it comes to elder investigations? Would a more661formalized information-sharing hub or Federal coordinating662mandate help track and take down transnational scam networks663more effectively? I think you have touched on this already, but664this gives you an opportunity to expand.665    Mr. Finta. Absolutely, Senator. I appreciate the question.666I believe it's the only way to make an impact on this crime is667to have a whole-of-society approach and a coordinated approach668to this. I'll give a perfect example. In just San Diego County,66912 different law enforcement agencies all independently siloed,670not sharing information on any of these cases. Until we put671that together with a coordination center, you didn't realize672that victims in Carlsbad and Coronado and El Cajon and Santee673and San Diego were all victimized by the same criminal674enterprise, not being investigated by any one of those675individual departments or Federal agencies.676    Unless we do this nationally, I do not think we're going to677be able to get ahead of this crime that grows every single678year. However, I do believe we do have the assets nationally679between our public and private sectors and these efforts. If we680put them together, I think we could create real impact.681    Chairman Grassley. More time for you with this question.682How does the National Elder Fraud Coordination Center make a683difference, and what can Congress learn from your efforts?684    Mr. Finta. So National Elder Fraud Coordination Center, we685call it NEFC, essentially focuses on pre-existing efforts686predominantly in the private sector. I'll give you another687example. Amazon does investigations into fraud and vulnerable688persons programs. They come up with a certain number of689selectors related to the bad guys in their investigations. We690take those selectors, and we share them with telecoms, banks,691other nonprofits, other different financial institutions, tech692companies, and we aggregate the information that they've693collected on those same selectors in order to present to law694enforcement.695    What that does, it gives law enforcement a huge jumpstart696in a type of investigation that would normally take months and697months and months to get to that point, saving effort and698making each case more impactful.699    Chairman Grassley. Mr. Bercu, a recent survey sponsored by700Google said 53 percent of Americans report receiving at least701one scam call per day. What should we be doing as a Nation to702regain trust in our telecommunications system and to protect703citizens from the growing rates of scam calls?704    Mr. Bercu. Thank you, Senator, and thank you, Mr. Chairman.705And I think our industry shares that concern. We all want the706same thing, calls people want getting through, calls people707don't want getting through, and that's what the industry has708really been focused on.709    I think the way to really focus on that is we really do710have to go after the bad guys. We've built a lot of protections711in the network. There's been a lot of enforcement against712enablers of that, and what we see is that the criminals behind713this just keep adapting and finding new pathways, so I think714that's really got to be part of the answer, going after the bad715guys.716    Chairman Grassley. Ms. Gunther, 13 different agencies717currently play some role in collecting data about and fighting718scams. There is criticism that they operate in silos, and there719is a lot of talk lately about the need to centralize data720collection about scams. How might it bolster our law721enforcement efforts if financial institutions were able to722report fraud to a central repository accessible by law723enforcement authorities and financial institutions?724    Ms. Gunther. Thank you for the question, Senator. It's a725great point. Right now, we're very siloed. The IC3 with the FBI726is collecting data. The FTC's collecting data, and then the727Department of Treasury is, and those really need to be728aggregated together so that people can report into that and we729can understand more and more about what's happening in this730area so that we can have better statistics and know what these731criminal networks are doing.732    And I think one of the biggest barriers to that is really733the privacy concerns that they have with financial institutions734not being able to share information because of consumer privacy735regulations.736    Chairman Grassley. Senator Durbin.737    Senator Durbin. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.738    I listened to your testimony, and I am glad to hear all of739it, and I think we are all on the same page. The one thing that740I am surprised is if there was any reference to crypto ATMs, I741didn't hear it. I think that is the new device that is being742used with great success by the scam artist.743    And I would just refer again to my neighboring State of744Iowa represented by the Chairman. Their attorney general is on745this case looking at crypto ATMs. An investigation by the Iowa746Attorney General's Office found over 98 percent of the money747Iowans reported sending to Bitcoin Depot were part of a scam748transaction, 98 percent. It gets worse. CoinFlip, another one749of these operations, 95 percent for fraudulent transactions.750These aren't real.751    I had a vaping shop in my hometown of Springfield,752Illinois. I asked them to finally remove the crypto ATM machine753because the owner was so embarrassed by the older people who754came in there crying, tearing up, screaming, putting money into755a machine believing that they were saving themselves from a756criminal prosecution. I mean, it is an outrage.757    So Ms. Gunther, you know what I did with my bill because I758worked with AARP to do it. Do you support it?759    Ms. Gunther. Yes, we do support it, and we've seen760firsthand at AARP how victims are being funneled to these761crypto ATMs by people, a variety of criminals. And what762criminals do is they want to go to those transactions because763there are no guardrails to these, right? There's no trained764staff like you have----765    Senator Durbin. No do-over.766    Ms. Gunther. Yep, no do-over. There are no consumer767warnings, and there's no claw back. And that's why it's so768important to have those guardrails. It's the same that we have769guardrails in our traditional financial industry with banks and770credit unions. We have seen that with BankSafe, when there's771friction in the system, it gives people that pause to think772something's wrong. And so by putting those frictions in the773system with crypto ATMs, it will help cut down on fraud.774    But I think we really can't get to it until we get to the775front end of the issue, which is trying to figure out how to776cut it off, the communication from the criminals that are using777the social media tech and telecom company platforms to778communicate with consumers.779    Senator Durbin. What percentage is using a telephone now780for these scam transactions?781    Ms. Gunther. You know, I don't know that specific782statistic, but I'm happy to get that for you for our office.783    Senator Durbin. Mr. Bercu, how much?784    Mr. Bercu. I don't know for sure either, but, you know, it785is something that we're continuing to focus on is when that786communication comes through a phone call.787    Senator Durbin. So when I warn senior citizens who are788worried about these scams, be very doubtful of that telephone789call. You are not going to get the telephone call from the790Veterans Administration or the Social Security Administration.791They are making it up. It is all phony, and they are trying to792get you to do something you shouldn't do.793    I can recall getting a call from my bank, and they said, we794are just checking a suspicious transaction. By the time of the795end of the phone call, it was clear it was a scam. I told the796fellow I just wasn't going to follow through, and he had some797choice words for me. But is it safe to warn senior citizens to798be extremely doubtful and careful when they receive this799telephone communication?800    Mr. Bercu. I think, unfortunately, the current status of801fraud, it is good to have everyone on their toes. I know AARP802just launched a new campaign. I can't quote it, but it's803``pause and listen,'' so I think that's really good804recommendations. And one thing I always tell people, if it's a805bank calling, tell them you're going to hang up and call back806the bank's public number, and if they protest, it's not the807bank.808    Senator Durbin. That will be the end of the story. So if809anybody asks you for a Social Security number over a telephone,810what is the answer?811    Mr. Bercu. No, thank you.812    Senator Durbin. Never do it. How about passwords to get813into your accounts?814    Mr. Bercu. That--I would recommend against that as well.815    Senator Durbin. Let me ask you about the crypto issue, Mr.816Finta. You seem to be aware of it yourself.817    Mr. Finta. Yes, sir. Yes, Senator, very common in pretty818much every transnational elder fraud case now. It's kind of819hard to find one without crypto transactions and specifically820the ATMs.821    Senator Durbin. I think some 13 States now have put in822safeguards by their State law. Because I cannot offer an823amendment to the crypto bill, there will be no amendments, I824won't even be able to raise this issue on a National basis. We825have got to do it once and for all. This is a classic example826of an amendment which, when I was here a few years ago, would827have been accepted on a bipartisan basis, trying to establish828some safety when it comes to these scam transactions. But we829are being allowed by the crypto industry no amendments, none,830to this bill. Take it or leave it.831    Chairman Grassley. Senator Moody.832    Senator Moody. Thank you, Chairman. And thank you to all833our witnesses for being here today.834    I am one of the newest Members of the Senate. As you can835see, I am sitting at the kids' table down here----836    [Laughter.]837    Senator Moody [continuing]. The most junior Member of this838Committee, but the most excited because I was a former Federal839prosecutor, a judge, the attorney general of the great State of840Florida, and now I get the opportunity to take all of that that841I have learned and experienced, especially as it relates to842seniors and some of the issues we are talking about, and delve843in on a nationwide basis.844    And I want to thank you because, as I am hearing you, you845are coming up with real solutions and recommendations, pointing846out challenges in the way we are structured, in the way we847share information, the way we might approach this in a more848organized, efficient way. And I haven't heard once that the way849we can fix this is to throw a ton of money at the situation. In850fact, I think I heard multiple times, we have the resources, we851are just not using them in the best way.852    And so, as I have been here now for almost 5 months, one853thing that continues to shock me is that we will sit through854these hearings--I believe I have sat on a hearing of similar855substance--and going down the line, we need more money, we need856more money, if you only give us more money, if you only give us857more money. And it seems pretty now obvious how we have ended858up as a Nation with $36 trillion in debt because there is a859culture now here in Washington, and I guess it is now expected860by everyone to fix a problem, the only way to do that is you861just throw endless amounts of cash at it.862    And I have found over the course of my career in working863with law enforcement and interest groups as to particular law864enforcement issues that sometimes it is a leadership issue, or865it is a coordination issue, or it is a structure issue. And it866might take a lot less money if we fix that problem first, and867so, thank you. This is a refreshing morning of people who know868what they are talking about, genuinely offering solutions that869doesn't just include throwing endless amounts of cash at a870situation.871    And I want to echo something that Ms. Helm said. This872problem spans all walks of life. Smart people are falling for873these issues. And I think the specific reason seniors are874targeted is because they have life savings, and sometimes they875are not as adept or skilled at using rapidly evolving876technology, whether that is to safeguard their assets that877they're trying to manage online, or whether they are not used878to using social media platforms in a way that is safe. So this879is a challenge.880    As attorney general, I noticed very quickly that our881Federal agencies many times have a limit or a loss where they882will actually prosecute. And sometimes that could be $5883million. And while the average person might lose what seems to884be a little bit amount to a Federal agency, when accumulated885amongst all the victims, it could in fact exceed that, but we886are not sharing information and we don't know what that true887loss is.888    So in Florida as attorney general, we set out to create the889first of its kind in the Nation at a statewide level, working890with our individual counties of law enforcement and even then891our cities to make sure they knew that there was a State-level892resource to share this information, these victims, so we could893accumulate that data and go after. And we saw some success894right away. You have the skilled people at the statewide level895that were able to help their local jurisdictions and law896enforcement, and if it met a certain threshold, then start897working with the Federal Government when they would take that.898    And I will start with you, Mr. Bercu. I think you alluded899to this. Do you believe that having a Federal approach or one900person in charge of working with States at a statewide level to901start developing the expertise and law enforcement acumen as it902relates to cyber crime and cyber fraud in seniors is absolutely903needed right now because we are seeing more and more of these904cases take place and could in fact exceed what would be a905Federal cutoff?906    Mr. Bercu. Yes, I think absolutely. I think it's right for907Federal leadership, for Federal coordination with the States908and across the Federal Government too because even with the909Federal, the FTC, FBI, FCC, DOJ, they all have a role. And so910just that--we need a central coordinator that raises this issue911to the level of prioritization it deserves.912    Senator Moody. And I will turn to you, Mr. Finta. You kept913referencing the problem here are these silos. There is no914information gathering. There is no real organizational915structure to have the folks that are dealing with it at a916Federal level interfacing with statewide because most States917don't have targeted teams like this. What would be your918recommendation if one were to approach doing that at a Federal919level? Where would you even start?920    Mr. Finta. I would basically start with what we already921have. We've figured this problem out to some degree with922respect to internet crimes against children where we put ICAC923task forces in every major city in the United States,924predominantly staffed by State and local officers with a925prosecution model, DA's Office, U.S. Attorney's Office working926together. These ICACs are able to actually infuse the hundreds927of thousands of leads they get every year.928    We could duplicate that with EJTFs and actually start to929get our hands wrapped around this problem. And the thing that930we don't understand or that we're not seeing is because there931are so few cases right now, the amalgamation of the932intelligence of those few cases will get dramatically933heightened when you have more of those cases. So if we just934mimicked that model and built these EJTFs, it would start to935change things.936    Senator Moody. Thank you, Mr. Chair.937    Chairman Grassley. Senator Klobuchar.938    Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. And I939want to thank my colleagues for the kind words about the940murders that happened in Minnesota and the work that needs to941be done going forward. The people we lost were tremendous942people.943    And so I will start with a question actually out of the944U.S. Attorney's Office in Minnesota because they presented the945evidence yesterday to the Nation. In 2023--and they are fine946people that work there--they successfully prosecuted three947people who defrauded over 150,000 elderly victims across the948country, stole nearly $300 million from them by convincing949seniors to pay to enroll in fraudulent magazine subscriptions.950It was one of the largest elder fraud schemes in our Nation.951    Like Senator Moody, my former life as a prosecutor, I952actually started an elder white-collar crime division in our953county attorney's office and know how bad this can be.954    Mr. Finta, what barriers do these government and law955enforcement agencies face in seeking information necessary to956fight scams, securing information?957    Mr. Finta. Well, unfortunately, I think there's a pervasive958thought process, particularly among our local law enforcement959agencies that there's nothing we can do. Bad guys are overseas,960money is in crypto, it's already gone. There is always961something we can do, especially if we just start documenting962these cases and working together. There's plenty of people in963the United States who are co-conspirators in these criminal964enterprises that are necessary for them to operate effectively.965Those turn into great leads as soon as they get arrested.966    Senator Klobuchar. Right, thank you.967    Ms. Gunther, in 2022, Senator Collins and I actually968enacted a bill, passed a bill, Senior Fraud Prevention Act, to969create an office in the FTC focused on fighting scams that970target seniors, education, which some of you have referred to.971Quickly, do you agree that investing resources targeted at972stopping elder fraud scams is an effective strategy in trying973to educate seniors?974    Ms. Gunther. I definitely think that with educating975seniors, it's part of a step that we need to have. We know that976it's effective when we're actually educating people, and977there's different ways to educate people with behavioral tools978so they're actually making changes and can recognize and spot979those specific red flags of a scam. So we do think--but there980are other tools. We need to give tools to the financial981industry to actually stop suspicious transactions because982education isn't all--is not a one--it's not a one-size-fits-983all. We need to give--we need to have a coordinated Federal984response. We need financial institutions to be able to stop----985    Senator Klobuchar. So just----986    Ms. Gunther [continuing]. You know, pause----987    Senator Klobuchar. Exactly.988    Ms. Gunther [continuing]. On those suspicious----989    Senator Klobuchar. And then one of the things I am990concerned about is just slashing the FTC's Bureau of Consumer991Protection budget by 13 percent or effectively dismantling the992CFPP, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. To me, that993seems like a bigger problem, which is what is in the budget994right now that we just received from the administration. Could995you comment on that?996    Ms. Gunther. Yes, I can't comment on that, but I can put997you in contact with someone from our office.998    Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Very good. But I just think we999should realize what is going on.1000    I want to turn quickly to AI. I actually have had in my--1001someone I know well whose son serves in the Marines. He got a1002call when his son was deployed that was his son's voice that1003had been scraped off the internet. This isn't a senior scam,1004but we are seeing so much of this with seniors. And saying, I1005am in trouble, I need money, basically. And he figured out1006something was wrong when he started asking questions and hung1007up. But I think the grandma might not have done that or the1008grandpa.1009    Ms. Helm, you testified about some of the ways scammers1010have ruined lives. What should people know about the dangers of1011AI-generated scams?1012    Ms. Helm. Yes, when my mother went through her scam, this1013was right before AI exploded, so they used very archaic tools1014of a video of a man in a dark room, and they would voice over1015the actor in the video. And they were actually pretty1016convincing, enough to convince my mom to give $350,000 away.1017    But with artificial intelligence, this is going to explode.1018They are so convincing, and they've got money to back people up1019to make--to back people up to make these scams even more1020convincing. They'll send you a $100,000 check, and it will1021cash.1022    Senator Klobuchar. Makes you think we should be doing some1023rules of the road on AI, which we have had a bipartisan effort1024going on. And one of my biggest fears of this is just the scams1025that are going to affect individual people. Senator Blackburn1026and Senator Coons and Tillis and I have worked on deepfakes,1027but we have to make sure this incorporates some of these scams1028going forward with what we do.1029    Ms. Gunther, do you want to add anything on AI?1030    Ms. Gunther. Yes, so with artificial intelligence, it is1031very scary. We're seeing them adopted. We're getting calls,1032hearing from our members where they're cloning voices. It's1033very difficult to use AI to detect that, and so that's why it's1034really important to have other tools as well. Not only do banks1035need to adopt artificial intelligence, but they need to do it1036at a faster pace. But they also have to use other tools in the1037bucket as multifactor authentication as well.1038    Thank you.1039    Chairman Grassley. Senator Blackburn.1040    Senator Blackburn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1041    And to each of you, thank you for being here.1042    Ms. Helm, I thank you for weighing in and working with us1043as we developed the Romance Scam bill that we have been moving1044forward with at Commerce Committee.1045    Ms. Helm. Thank you.1046    Senator Blackburn. And I appreciate your input on that. You1047know, one of the things we realized was the entry point for a1048lot of these scams and these financial crimes are the dating1049apps, and especially the dating apps for seniors. And so when1050you talk about an entry point, that seems to have been it.1051    But what we have learned, and Mr. Chairman alluded to this1052in his opening, these are really transnational organizations,1053and this is a big business. And I know U.S. consumers lost, the1054estimate is $1.3 billion last year in these scams. But that is1055what is reported. And we know many of these don't get reported1056because of embarrassment, or they figured it out, but they have1057already lost several thousand dollars in the process.1058    And as we were working on our legislation, what we found is1059that some of these sophisticated transnational criminal1060organizations will actually promise people that they will get1061them to another country, many times the U.S., for high-paying1062jobs.1063    But what actually happens is it is a form of human1064trafficking tied to it. They are brought here, and then they1065are placed in what are called fraud dens. And in these fraud1066dens, they work the internet, they work the phones, and they1067create these relationships, and then they are scamming people1068out of hundreds of millions of dollars every year and telling1069these individuals that they were going to bring to the U.S. and1070people that they are trafficking that they have to work out1071their debt, so that is how they keep them in these dens.1072    But Mr. Finta, I want you to speak for a minute about these1073transnational organizations and what we know about them and1074their underpinning as it relates to these crimes.1075    Mr. Finta. Thank you, Senator. These TOC, transnational1076organized crime groups, they're not really any different than1077the Mexican cartels, the, you know, TOC groups doing cyber1078crimes. They're configured relatively similarly, particularly1079in the way they launder the money.1080    So one thing that we noticed doing elder fraud1081investigations is that a lot of the money that we were tracing1082through these accounts was also in the same accounts with1083proceeds from narcotic sales, human trafficking, all kinds of1084other crimes. So it's not necessarily about the crime as much1085as the criminal groups.1086    So we have the sophistication in our government and in our1087private industry to do these investigations if we coordinate1088them and work them together to have more effect. I think it's1089more a function of us choosing how to do that as opposed to1090letting the crooks choose because they're plenty sophisticated.1091We need to be at that same level.1092    Senator Blackburn. Yes, and I think--and you alluded to1093this earlier--as we have worked on the Kids Online Safety Act1094and worked with industry and worked with parents, we have seen1095some of this skillset develop, and it could be transferred1096over.1097    Mr. Bercu, I want to ask you--and thank you for the work1098you have done on tracing the illegal phone calls, the robocalls1099and those things. Talk a little bit about traceback and give me1100an example of where traceback and/or a cross-sector1101collaboration has led to a criminal conviction and to1102unraveling part of this network.1103    Mr. Bercu. Yes, thank you for the question. I think we1104would love to see more of our work lead to criminal1105convictions, and that's where we just really think that needs1106to be a priority. Where a lot of our work--so we trace the1107calls, we get examples from illegal calls, referrals from law1108enforcement, data we source ourselves, working with the1109financial institutions, tech companies, others, and we'll trace1110that back to the source. And basically, we see 8 to 101111different voice service providers touch that call along the1112way, and so that's why we need traceback to find out where it1113really came from, who made the call. So that's the traceback1114effort. It's been very successful in civil enforcement. Where1115we'd love to see it amped up is in the criminal side.1116    Senator Blackburn. Okay. Let me ask you this. With Wi-Fi1117calling, have you been able to follow any on Wi-Fi calling? And1118if someone is using a VPN, does that obstruct your work?1119    Mr. Bercu. So for us, yes, our focus--if it hits the public1120telephone network, we trace it back. If it's purely over the1121top, like a WhatsApp call, that would be outside the scope of1122what we do.1123    Senator Blackburn. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1124    Chairman Grassley. Senator Whitehouse.1125    Senator Whitehouse. Thanks very much.1126    I just want to flag for any Rhode Islanders who might be1127listening, that if you are getting texts and emails that say1128you owe a toll and that proceedings are about to begin against1129you because of unpaid tolls or tickets, consider that to be a1130scam and be very wary about clicking onto any link in that text1131that purports to be the way that you are going to pay off the1132unpaid toll or ticket and know instead that this is almost1133certainly a scam.1134    The Department of Motor Vehicles and the Rhode Island1135Bridge and Turnpike Authority have both put out notices that1136these are not their way of dealing with customers who owe them1137money. And so when you see that, be very, very wary. That is my1138public service announcement for the day.1139    I would also like to put into the record the story of a1140Rhode Islander who was the victim of a romance scam and lost a1141great deal of money to a scammer who was sentenced to serve 1211142months in prison by then Chief Judge John Jack McConnell in1143Rhode Island.1144    It is hard to overstate what happens to an elderly person1145who is both betrayed by someone who she thought was a romantic1146interest, who she thought was a friend who she had come to1147count on, and then also to come back from that and find that1148her finances are in complete disarray, and she is going to have1149to really rethink what the rest of her life looks like, that it1150is going to change her entire financial position going forward.1151    So I ask unanimous consent to put that into the record.1152    Chairman Grassley. Without objection, so ordered.1153    [The information appears as a submission for the record.]1154    Senator Whitehouse. One of the things that helps the1155fraudsters is anonymity that is very often provided by VPNs or1156by fake names. Very often the big platforms have a role in all1157of this, and we don't have a whole lot of time right now, but I1158really would be grateful if each of you, if you have thoughts1159about what the best things that we could do to penetrate the1160anonymity where it is a part of a scam and to figure out how to1161hold the platforms more accountable for supporting these1162frauds. I would be grateful because I think, you know, this has1163been a good hearing, Mr. Chairman. It has been very bipartisan.1164Everybody has constituents who are being scammed by these1165predatory folks. Some of them are from overseas.1166    When I was U.S. attorney, we had what they called 419, I1167think they called them, scams, where like a Nigerian minister1168suddenly discovered that he had $4 million squirreled away and1169just needed to get your account information so he could store1170it in your account, and you would get $2 million of the $41171million, and he would get the $2 million. It was going to be a1172great deal. All you had to do was give him all your bank1173information. Yes, how did that work out?1174    So the more we can drill into who is really behind these1175things, the trick with those is trying to figure out who was at1176the other end of it. And the Secret Service did a pretty good1177job of investigating. But now, anonymity is even worse, and1178therefore, these frauds are practiced more prevalently and with1179less accountability.1180    So your thoughts on dealing with the anonymity problem and1181how we can break through that to find the perpetrators more1182regularly, I would really be grateful for.1183    And thank you for the hearing, Chairman. Question for the1184record, we will call that.1185    Chairman Grassley. Senator Hirono.1186    [Off mic.]1187    Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I thank all of1188our witnesses.1189    Clearly, scamming elders has been going on for way, way too1190long, and I think they are a particularly vulnerable group of1191people because perhaps part of it is that, one, they may have1192resources, but two, they may be trusting. They may be trusting.1193I remember telling my mom who lived with us that if anyone ever1194calls to not respond to them and she said, but that is very1195rude because I told her, you have to just hang up. She said,1196that is very rude. I said, well, then just say no thank you and1197hang up. But I think that, you know, the fact that they are1198very vulnerable is, yes, one wonders what more we can do. I1199think there is more, of course.1200    So I think there is bipartisan support for the idea that we1201should work together to combat this type of targeted fraud, but1202it is, you know, pretty much all kinds of fraud that has to do1203with the financial fraud. And the thing is that it bothers me1204that in February, the CFPB was effectively shut down. And as we1205know, CFPB educated Americans about scams and responded to1206complaints, and it returned over $21 billion from basically1207financial scams. So this is not a time to be shutting down a1208very effective agency. And that is probably maybe one of the1209reasons that it is being shut down.1210    And then in April, the DOJ announced that it was disbanding1211its National Cryptocurrency Enforcement Team and would no1212longer target crypto-mixing services that criminals used to1213launder the proceeds of their scams. And I led a letter to the1214DOJ asking for a briefing on this topic, but I received no1215answer. And we know that there are these crypto ATMs that are1216very busy scamming money from unsuspecting people, so there is1217a lot going on.1218    And hearing from all of you, I was particularly interested1219in Ms. Gunther saying that--and you represent AARP. Now, that1220is one group that spends a lot of time informing your members1221about these kinds of scams. But you mentioned that there is1222more that the financial industry can do to alert people, could1223be alerting their relatives, that their parents are being1224scammed, whatever. And you said that Australia had done1225something, had enacted legislation to enable financial1226institutions to put holds on what could be raised red flags.1227Can you tell us more about what Australia has done?1228    Ms. Gunther. Yes, absolutely. Australia is a great,1229promising practice. It's been in the last year or two that1230they've put this together. They've done kind of what we've all1231been talking about here today, which is a coordinated national1232response, but it's also bringing all of the players in the1233ecosystem, every point of the scam, of the journey of the scam1234for a consumer, whether that's telecom, social media, the1235financial industry, tech companies, all together to make them1236responsible because I think we're looking just at the end1237point, which is the financial industry.1238    And to your first part of your question is that the1239financial industry, their arms are tied because they're not1240able to, when they tell or seize, hey, this is suspicious,1241there's a red flag here, they're not able--and that person1242still wants their money. Because of old regulations, they have1243to process that in about half of those States. Half the States1244don't have the ability to hold.1245    Senator Hirono. So do the other witnesses agree that this1246is something we can look at doing, following what Australia is1247doing to bring a lot of people together? In fact, Mr. Bercu,1248you said that there should be a nationally coordinated response1249to these kinds of scams. So would you agree that--would all of1250you agree that, you know, we need to focus on what is happening1251to our elders and put together a national response? Would you1252all agree that that would be a good thing? And it would1253probably require legislation.1254    Mr. Bercu. I mean, I can say I agree. I think there's a lot1255of work the industry is doing. There's little segments of work1256that's across it, but I think we need a government-led national1257strategy that's in coordination with the private sector,1258absolutely.1259    Mr. Finta. I couldn't agree more.1260    Senator Hirono. Okay. I did have one last question for Ms.1261Helm. It sounds as though your mother, not only was she scammed1262by this romance scam, but even when she knew that this was a1263scam, she still continued to want to participate. So there is a1264whole psychological aspect to this kind of scam that we need to1265also address.1266    Ms. Helm. That's the biggest riddle of this whole thing. I1267could not get my mother to stop. And all the families I speak1268to, about 90 percent of them email me or call me and say, how1269can I get my family member to stop? And that's the answer that1270I--that keeps me up at night. I don't have an answer. I know we1271do need more therapists who are aware of the problem. And there1272is one therapist in particular, Cathy Wilson, out of Littleton,1273Colorado, who is putting a program together to teach other1274therapists about the emotional impact of romance scamming.1275    Senator Hirono. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1276    Chairman Grassley [off mic]. This concludes our hearing. I1277thank all the witnesses for the hard work you put into it and1278the time you spent to get here to share your personal1279experience and your expertise, and your perspectives are pretty1280darn important to everybody that gets hurt by these crimes.1281    Now, we have a process for written questions. They can be1282submitted for the record for 1 week from today. And then for1283you witnesses, for answering these written questions, we would1284like to have you 2 weeks after you receive them, if you could1285get them back to us.1286    Thank you all very much.1287    [Whereupon, at 11:54 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]1288    [Additional material submitted for the record follows.]1289[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]12901291                            A P P E N D I X12921293The following submissions are available at:12941295  https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-119shrg61841/pdf/CHRG-1296    119shrg1297    61841-add1.pdf12981299Submitted by Chair Grassley:13001301 Certified Threat Intelligence Analyst (CTIA), statement..........     213021303 Charlotte, Ayleen, statement.....................................    1913041305 Department of Justice (DOJ), statement...........................    2213061307 Defense Credit Union Counsel (DCUC), letter......................    3013081309 LoveSaid, Fraud Centre & Think Tank, The Science of Being1310    Scammed: Why Romance Fraud Is More Than a Scam, statement.....    3313111312 Stop Scams Alliance, statement...................................    3713131314Submitted by Ranking Member Durbin:13151316 America's Credit Unions, statement...............................    5013171318 Certified Threat Intelligence Analyst (CTIA), statement..........     213191320 Community Bankers Association of Illinois, statement.............    5213211322Submitted by Senator Whitehouse:13231324 Romance scam artist from Nigeria who targeted RI widow going to1325    prison, The Providence Journal, news article..................    5613261327                                 [all]