S.Hrg.119-255

1[Senate Hearing 119-255]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                                                        S. Hrg. 119-25556                 HIDDEN HARMS: EXAMINING WHISTLEBLOWER7                         ALLEGATIONS THAT META8                      BURIED CHILD SAFETY RESEARCH910=======================================================================1112                                HEARING1314                               before the1516                        SUBCOMMITTEE ON PRIVACY,17                        TECHNOLOGY, AND THE LAW1819                                 OF THE2021                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY22                          UNITED STATES SENATE2324                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2526                             FIRST SESSION27                               __________2829                           SEPTEMBER 9, 202530                               __________3132                           Serial No. J-119-3733                               __________3435         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary3637              [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]3839                        www.judiciary.senate.gov40                            www.govinfo.gov41                                 ______4243                  U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE444562-327                    WASHINGTON : 20264647                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY4849                  CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa, Chairman50LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina    RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois,51JOHN CORNYN, Texas                     Ranking Member52MICHAEL S. LEE, Utah                 SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island53TED CRUZ, Texas                      AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota54JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri                CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware55THOM TILLIS, North Carolina          RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut56JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana              MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii57MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee          CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey58ERIC SCHMITT, Missouri               ALEX PADILLA, California59KATIE BOYD BRITT, Alabama            PETER WELCH, Vermont60ASHLEY MOODY, Florida                ADAM B. SCHIFF, California6162             Kolan Davis, Chief Counsel and Staff Director63         Joe Zogby, Democratic Chief Counsel and Staff Director6465            Subcommittee on Privacy, Technology, and the Law6667                   MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee, Chair68LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina    AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota,69JOHN CORNYN, Texas                     Ranking Member70JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri                CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware71JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana              RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut72ASHLEY MOODY, Florida                ALEX PADILLA, California73                                     ADAM B. SCHIFF, California7475                 Ben Blackmon, Republican Chief Counsel76                 Dan Goldberg, Democratic Chief Counsel7778                            C O N T E N T S7980                              ----------8182                           OPENING STATEMENTS8384                                                                   Page8586Blackburn, Hon. Marsha, Chair....................................     187Grassley, Hon. Charles E.........................................     588Klobuchar, Hon. Amy..............................................     389Blumenthal, Hon. Richard.........................................     69091                               WITNESSES9293Sattizahn, Jason.................................................     894    Prepared statement...........................................    3795    Responses to written questions...............................    5096Savage, Cayce....................................................    1097    Prepared statement...........................................    4498    Responses to written questions...............................    6899100                                APPENDIX101102Items submitted for the record...................................    87103104                             HIDDEN HARMS:105                        EXAMINING WHISTLEBLOWER106                      ALLEGATIONS THAT META BURIED107                         CHILD SAFETY RESEARCH108109                              ----------110111                       TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 9, 2025112113                      United States Senate,114              Subcommittee on Privacy, Technology,115                                       and the Law,116                                Committee on the Judiciary,117                                                    Washington, DC.118    The Subommittee met, pursuant to notice at 2:36 p.m., in119Room 226, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Marsha120Blackburn, Chair of the Subcommittee, presiding.121    Present: Senators Blackburn [presiding], Grassley, Hawley,122Moody, Klobuchar, Durbin, Coons, Blumenthal, Padilla, and123Schiff.124125          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARSHA BLACKBURN,126           A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF TENNESSEE127128    Chair Blackburn. The Subcommittee will come to order.129Senator Klobuchar is on her way, but I am going to go ahead and130begin with my opening statement. As you all are aware, we have131a vote series that is taking place, but I do want to say thank132you so much for our witnesses being here, and for each of you133being here today.134    We will hear from Dr. Jason Sattizahn and Ms. Cayce Savage.135They are two brave whistleblowers who have come forward to136detail shocking allegations about Meta's coverup of deeply137disturbing child safety research. They were hired to138purportedly make the platform safer for children, but what they139found was a company that knew their products were unsafe and140they just did not care.141    Nearly 4 years ago, I held my first hearing with a Meta142whistleblower who detailed how Meta exploits our children143online simply to maximize user engagement and boost their144profits. Since then, we've seen a national movement of parents,145legislators, whistleblowers, and children that have said enough146is enough.147    Our children are more precious than the interest of148depraved Big Tech CEOs, and that Congress must pass the149bipartisan Kids Online Safety Act. After all these years, Meta150continues to knowingly, knowingly, allow sexual exploitation151and harms to children on their platforms. I'm incredibly152grateful that individuals are still willing to come forward and153shine a light on Meta's disturbing, willful, and intentional154actions.155    Mark Zuckerberg has promised that, and I'm quoting him,156``In the Metaverse, you'll be able to do almost anything you157can imagine.'' And for once, Mr. Zuckerberg's statement rings158true. That is for predators, for pedophiles, for groomers, for159traffickers, and all kinds of disgusting bad actors.160    As these whistleblowers will explain, the Metaverse has161become the Wild West for criminals who prey on our children. As162our witnesses will tell us today, virtual reality can be163incredibly dangerous for children, specifically because of the164immersive nature of the technology.165    Children have a much harder time processing the difference166between violence and abuse in the physical and virtual spaces.167In other words, when their avatar on Meta's virtual reality168platform is raped or harassed, children experience that trauma169as if it is actually happening to them.170    Let's be clear, virtual reality is reality. These harms are171real, and this abuse happens every single day, every day on172Meta's reality platforms. One employee stated on an internal173message board in 2017, and again, I quote, ``We have a child174problem, and it's probably time to talk about it.'' That was1752017, one of their employees stating, ``We have a child176problem.''177    But years later, Meta's C-Suite has zero interest in these178findings. According to these whistleblowers, Meta executives179decided they didn't want to see research detailing how harmful180their products are to children, so they unleashed their attack181dogs within Meta legal on the research teams intent on creating182a rosy picture of their products, Meta legal, manipulated183research methods, and buried negative data.184    Meta instructed researchers to avoid asking teen survey185participants questions, which might lead them to discuss harms186they've experienced because of Meta's design. And when their187suppression didn't work, they just simply deleted the evidence.188They erased it so no one would know.189    In one user review, Meta's Horizon Worlds was dubbed and I190quote, ``The pedophile kingdom.'' This makes clear what we have191known for years that Meta profits from the sexualization and192abuse of children. If you need another example, look at the193recent report that Meta's own internal guidelines allowed AI194chat bots to engage in central conversations with children,195their refusal to protect children and to instead profit at the196expense of kids' safety. This is revolting. It is heinous197conduct.198    Again, I want to thank the two whistleblowers that are here199with us today, and the other whistleblowers who have come200forward who are not here. I know that this was not an easy201decision for either of you, but what you're doing brings us one202step closer, one step closer, to holding these Big Tech203platforms accountable.204    We have parents in the room today. Parents all across the205Nation are speaking out, and we thank you. And to Maureen,206Brian, Mia, Christine, those parents that have lost their207children to social media harms, we are grateful that you're208here, and grateful for your passion to make sure that no parent209ever has to experience the trauma that you have experienced.210With your help, we will get the Kids Online Safety Act passed,211and we will get it to the President's desk, and we will hold212Big Tech accountable.213    Now, I turn to Senator Klobuchar.214215            OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. AMY KLOBUCHAR,216           A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF MINNESOTA217218    Senator Klobuchar. Well, thank you very much, Chair219Blackburn, and thank you for your long-time leadership of this220as well as the very important bill that you and Senator221Blumenthal have been proud to support it and be co-sponsor are222pushing through and I've already passed the Senate once, so223we're close.224    I have worked in this area for a long time myself, and I've225known the frustration of no matter what you seem to do, you get226lobbied against and millions of dollars against you. And I just227think we're reaching a moment where the time is up, and there228are too many families and too many parents that are affected by229this. I want to thank our two whistleblowers that are here. I'm230sure you never in your wildest dreams imagined that you were231going to be in front of a Senate panel in this way. But I want232to thank you for doing the right thing.233    For too long these companies have worked to attract kids to234their platforms. They do so knowing that their platforms use235algorithms that increase the risk of sexual exploitation, push236harmful content, facilitate bullying, and provide venues,237sadly, for dealers to sell deadly drugs like fentanyl.238    Meta cannot continue to turn a blind eye to these harms. It239was in this very room with this very Committee--maybe it was in240a different room, but the same Committee--where Mark Zuckerberg241actually turned to some families who had lost children to drugs242who said, ``I'm sorry, I'm sorry this happened.'' Well, sorry,243is not enough anymore, and we need to put in some rules of the244road to stop this from happening.245    This is not the first time whistleblowers from Meta have246come forward. In 2021, another whistleblower, Frances Haugen,247testified that Meta knew that its products took a significant248psychological toll on users. In that case, it was eating249disorders. That testimony should have been a wakeup call for250Meta, a chance to right the ship.251    Meta did make changes after her testimony, but not to252protect kids. Instead, the company took steps to establish253plausible deniability. Meta blocked, manipulated, hid, and254deleted research that showed that its virtual reality products255were frequently used by underage kids who were exposed to real256and significant harm.257    I want to underscore that the entire appeal of the258Metaverse is that it's supposed to feel like real life and that259can be fun. It's communication, it's entertainment. There's260bells and whistles. But the problem is that the virtual reality261platform, as it has been created, also allows adults to form262relationships with unwitting children that can be exploited, as263The Washington Post pointed out in their lengthy investigative264piece yesterday.265    A 25-year-old man was convicted of kidnapping a 13-year-old266after interacting with her through Meta's virtual reality267products. Despite this, Meta forged ahead pushing new features268to attract younger users and allowing younger and younger kids269onto its virtual reality platforms without safety testing.270    One employee from Meta estimated that more than 80 percent271of users were underage in one of the virtual rooms. Adult users272frequently complained virtual reality spaces were overrun by273children. I don't know what else you need to hear to know274there's a problem--gleaning their presence by the sound of275their voices.276    Yet, Meta, using the code name ``Project Salsa'' because277allegedly they knew it would be a spicy topic, moved to lower278the official age minimum for its virtual reality head sites279from 13-to-10. In Meta's ongoing tradition of moving fast and280breaking things, it broke its repeated promise to parents in281Congress to protect kids on their platforms.282    That's why a bipartisan coalition of 42 State attorney283generals, with wildly different political views on a number of284things, decided to take this on. And that included my attorney285general in Minnesota, Keith Ellison.286    But Meta has continued to prioritize user engagement. It287does that because the more time people, no matter how young,288spend on their platforms, the more money it makes. We know the289profits on kids' data. According to a recent study, social290media platforms generated $11 billion in revenue in 2022 from291advertising directed at kids and teens, including nearly $2292billion in ad profits derived from users age 12 and under.293    And while today's whistleblowers left the company before294its current push to catch up in the generative AI space race,295their testimony raises serious questions about whether Meta is296ignoring child safety issues related to AI products, in297especially in light of the recent reports that Meta allowed its298chatbots to engage children into romantic or sensual299conversations.300    That's why we must come together, Democrats, Republicans,301to set up common-sense rules. We have worked on both the302Judiciary and Commerce Committees to do this. Senator Cruz and303I, basically through a lot of hard work over many years, passed304our TAKE IT DOWN Act when the President signed it into law that305would hold platforms accountable for taking down pornographic306images of kids or adults that are either the actual images or307AI created within 48 hours.308    We must pass Senator Blackburn and Blumenthal's Kids Online309Safety Act to ensure that platforms design their products to310prevent and mitigate harm to kids. We also know that other311industries do not enjoy this similar level of protection. If312they have an appliance that blows up or they have a tire that313blows up on the road, there's accountability. They get sued and314that's a major incentive to fix it.315    We don't have that with these social media platforms, and316that is why I have long supported repealing Section 230, which317was basically set up while these were little companies in the318garage. That's not true anymore. They're the biggest companies319the world has ever known.320    To end with this, one parent once told me that her trying321to get her young kids, 6 and 8, off of these platforms, she'd322have to resort to relying on her 12-year-old, 15-year-old to323try to get it down. They couldn't figure out how to do it.324They'd find another platform. It's just endless. Despite all325her best efforts to be a mom, she said it was like a sink326overflowing with a faucet she couldn't turn off and she was327just sitting out there with a mop. These parents need more than328mops. They need us to pass this bill.329    Thank you, Madam Chair.330    Chair Blackburn. Senator Grassley, you're recognized.331332        OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. CHARLES E. GRASSLEY,333             A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF IOWA334335    Chairman Grassley. And like Senator Klobuchar said, I want336to compliment you on your leadership. Ever since you've been in337the Senate, you've been fighting to protect children from338social media abuse.339    During my time in the Senate, I've always fought for340whistleblowers, both in the government as well as in the341private sector. I've offered updates to the False Claims Act,342the IRS Whistleblower Program, and other whistleblower laws.343And just this year I've helped almost 20 government344whistleblowers get their jobs back. Whistleblowers are key to345rooting out fraud, waste, and abuse. That includes the private346sector, not just the government.347    On September 13, 2022, Ranking Member of the Judiciary348Committee and I, along with Senator Durbin, held a hearing on349these very issues. A Twitter whistleblower at that time350testified disclosing to this Committee that Twitter potentially351exposed user data to foreign intelligence agencies, including352the government of China. His disclosures made public that the353FBI notified Twitter of at least one Chinese Government agent354at the company.355    This month, I, along with Senators Blackburn and Hawley,356sent a letter to Meta about the company's use of targeted ads357against teenagers. Our letter highlighted concerns that Meta's358potentially violating the Children's Online Privacy Protection359Act. It's been alleged that Meta collected personal information360from children under 13 years of age without parental consent.361    My oversight has also shown that these tech companies look362to silence whistleblowers. Last year I wrote to OpenAI about my363concerns that they tried to silence whistleblowers, and I364raised the same concerns this year with Meta. To address this,365I've introduced bipartisan legislation to implement366whistleblower protections in the artificial intelligence367industry.368    Now, it's been alleged that another Meta whistleblower,369Jason Sattizahn, has suffered retaliation. For example, in370March 2023, he received a performance review stating he,371``Exceeds expectation.'' Then in October, 2023, he raised372concerns to his leadership that Meta had been violating the373Child Children's Online Privacy Protection Act. So, what did374Meta do after spending 6 years at Meta with promotions and375positive performance? They fired him 6 months after his376disclosure.377    Ms. Savage also raised concerns about Meta's compliance378with the law. Instead of addressing her concerns, Meta's379lawyers reportedly told Ms. Savage to make sure that her work380did not put the company ``at risk''.381    I often say that whistleblowers are treated like skunks at382a picnic. It appears our witnesses as well as other383whistleblowers who've approached me have unfortunately been384treated like those skunks. Last year--we've been working on385this for a long time, I should say, not just last year. So, I386thank you, folks, for your courage and bravery in coming387forward to Congress. I and my colleagues will continue our388investigations.389    Chair Blackburn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator390Blumenthal.391392         OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL,393          A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF CONNECTICUT394395    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you, Madam Chair. And I want to396begin by thanking you, Senator Blackburn, for holding this397hearing, but even more important, for your extraordinarily398dedicated, tireless, relentless work on the Kids Online Safety399Act, which has been, for me, the opportunity of lifetime to400champion.401    And I have come to know some of the bravest, strongest402people who are with us today, parents of children who have been403lost as a result of the toxic content driven by Big Tech at404children purposefully and knowingly.405    And I want to thank the parents who are in attendance today406as well as many, many others who couldn't be with us and say to407you, we are going to continue to fight for the Kids Online408Safety Act, and we will win this fight.409    The whistleblowers who are with us today are part of this410battle. You are the truth tellers and you are part of a long411line, I wish there were more, of people of conscience and412conviction who have chosen to speak truth to power.413    And Senator Grassley is absolutely right that we need you414because wrongdoing in government and in private industry is415exposed as a result of people having the courage to come416forward as you have done and you deserve more protection. I417hope that Senator Grassley may join me in a bill that would418provide more protection to whistleblowers.419    Four years ago, another whistleblower, Frances Haugen came420forward to reveal how Meta knew it was fueling and aggravating421a teenage health crisis, a mental health crisis that continues422today even more widespread and exacerbated. Meta's own423researchers described Instagram as a ``perfect storm'' that424``exacerbates downward spirals,'' of addiction, eating425disorders and depression. They found that Instagram makes body426image issues worse for one in three girls.427    Two years later, another whistleblower came forward, Arturo428Bejar. He testified before this Committee that teens had429dangerous, harmful experiences on Instagram at an alarming430rate. And again, that Meta knew about it at the very top levels431of leadership.432    We worked on a solution to this problem; the Kid's Online433Safety Act. Meta promised it would work on solution, but it did434the opposite. It worked to suppress research and tools to give435parents better ways to protect their children. It purposely, in436effect, obstructed and blocked critical fact finding that you437both sought to do.438    I will never forget Mark Zuckerberg testifying before our439Judiciary Committee and turning to the parents in the audience440saying he apologized and Meta would do better. Not only did he441betray that promise, he knew it was false when he made it442because at that very moment, Meta was in fact suppressing443research and fact finding.444    According to documents provided to our offices, Meta445straight-jacketed its staff under a social issues protocol that446restricts research on key types of harm, including suicide,447eating disorders, bullying, and child trafficking by448designating them ``sensitive''. Yes, they were sensitive449because they would've undermined business and the reputation of450the company. What that meant in practice is Meta installed451monitors from their legal department who routinely altered,452blocked, and shut down work on teen safety.453    In one research study, those monitors even demanded the454destruction of data on underage children being solicited for455sex acts. Mark Zuckerberg and other Meta executives wanted to456make sure that government regulators, parents, and teens never457heard anything more about the dangers of their products that458are caused to young people.459    And as your disclosures show, they did so because Meta's460attitude simply hasn't changed. It prioritizes profits over the461well-being of children and teens. For example, Meta executives462canceled proposals to more accurately identify children on its463virtual reality platform and to provide them safeguards against464abuse.465    These disclosures show why Meta has hired armies of lawyers466and lobbyists, spent millions of dollars to kill the Kids467Online Safety Act. It's dangerous for their business model,468even if their practices are dangerous to kids. They don't want469a duty of care. They don't want transparency. They don't want470tools for parents. They want the Wild West, which continues471now.472    And you know, Big Tech has been compared to Big Tobacco. I473sued Big Tobacco as attorney general of the State of474Connecticut. I led my fellow attorneys general ensuing Big475Tobacco, and you know what gained us a victory, ultimately a476settlement worth a lot of money, which is still coming to the477states and a change in practices. The industry's own documents478showed they were lying.479    The parallel is indisputable. We had whistleblower there.480We have whistleblowers here who are speaking truth to power and481revealing that this industry knows how its business model of482driving toxic content to kids and even destroying lives is483known to them.484    So, I take from your testimony that Meta has no shame, no485conscience. It's waged an all-out war against Kids Online486Safety. It spent millions to stop that bill in the House even487though it passed overwhelmingly 91-to-3 in the Senate. The488majority of American people, the vast majority, 91-to-3,489bipartisan want this measure. We're here to demand it, and490we're going to keep fighting until we get it done. Thank you,491Madam Chair.492    Chair Blackburn. Senator Durbin, do you have a statement?493    Senator Durbin. No.494    Chair Blackburn. We skip it. Okay. I will skip you for now.495    At this point, I want to introduce our witnesses. Dr. Jason496Sattizahn is a researcher with over 15 years of academic social497media and video game development experience. Most recently, he498was a staff user experience researcher at Meta where he worked499for over 6 years until 2024, leading research on Marketplace500integrity, virtual reality, ranking algorithms, and emotional501and physical harm to vulnerable populations.502    Prior to his role at Meta, he earned his PhD in integrative503neuroscience from the University of Chicago, where he was also504a graduate researcher before developing video games and505accessibility features at Sony PlayStation.506    Ms. Cayce Savage is a user experience researcher with 12507years of experience in academic virtual reality and social508media research. After earning her master's degree in positive509organizational psychology and program evaluation from Claremont510Graduate University, Ms. Savage worked as a user experience511researcher for a startup in T-Mobile before joining Meta in5122019.513    During her 4 years at Meta, she worked on Facebook514Marketplace, Facebook Jobs, Facebook Groups, and Virtual515Reality. She specifically focused her research within reality516labs on users under the age of 18, an immersive emotional,517social, and physical harm to minors. She now serves as the lead518user experience researcher for eBay Live. We welcome each of519you.520    At this time, I would like for you to rise and raise your521right hand.522    [Witnesses are sworn in.]523    Chair Blackburn. Thank you. You may be seated. Both524witnesses answered in the affirmative. You each have 5 minutes525for your opening. Dr. Sattizahn, you're recognized.526527               STATEMENT OF DR. JASON SATTIZAHN,528           FORMER META RESEARCHER, CHICAGO, ILLINOIS529530    Dr. Sattizahn. Chairman Blackburn, Ranking Member531Klobuchar. Senator Grassley, Senator Durbin, Senator532Blumenthal, and Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for533having me here.534    I'm here to discuss Meta's manipulation of research to535cover up dangers facing billions across Meta's products and of536particular concern the millions of children using Meta's537virtual reality products. I also want to recognize and thank538the five past and current Meta employees, all researchers like539me, who have worked directly on creating Meta's products, who540made the brave decision to be a part of this disclosure that541brings us all here.542    My name's Jason Sattizahn. Growing up in the 1990's and in543the middle of Missouri, I saw both the value and the problems544that advances in technology brought the world. After a PhD in545integrative neuroscience, I wanted to use my research546experience to make these technologies and products better for547the people that use them.548    Most recently, I spent 6 years as a researcher at Meta549working in some of their most sensitive spaces and tasked with550understanding users, their needs, and using this to try and551make their products safer. I am here today because it is552evident that Meta consistently chooses profit over safety. I'm553not the first to discuss this as repeated whistleblowers have554shared Meta's reckless disregard for users. However, in the555wake of past whistleblowers, Meta has chosen to ignore the556problems they created and bury evidence of users' negative557experiences.558    I worked at Meta from 2018 to 2024. During these 6 years, I559witnessed data scandals, multiple whistleblower disclosures560about Meta's disregard for users and mounting public pressure561for Meta to address these issues, I saw the company respond to562these pressures by deliberately compromising internal563processes, policies, and research to protect company profits564over their users.565    During my first role at Meta, I led integrity research for566Facebook Marketplace and the data was clear; Marketplace causes567suffering for users including financial loss, stolen and568counterfeit items and personal safety issues ranging from being569sexually propositioned by strangers to physical assaults and570attempted kidnapping.571    My time on Marketplace was my first exposure to help572Facebook deprioritize safety for boosting user engagement.573Simple safety investments such as not allowing people to574message strangers with a single click were flatly rejected575because product teams were afraid to do anything that could576decrease engagement, the metric determining success and577bonuses.578    It was around this time I also first saw Facebook make579false statements to Congress, particularly about their580inability to estimate stolen goods on Marketplace. Their581statements directly contradict my own internal research, which582I've submitted with this whistleblower disclosure.583    In the fall of 2021, Frances Haugen disclosed to Congress584how Meta's products fuel mental health issues for teens,585including body dysmorphia, and self-harm. Meta's immediate586response for to congressional concern was not to do the right587thing, but rather roll out new processes and policies to588manipulate control and erase data.589    We, researchers, were directed how to write reports to590limit risk to Meta internal work groups were locked down,591making it nearly impossible to share data and coordinate592between teams to keep users safe. Mark Zuckerberg disparaged593whistleblowers claiming past disclosures were, ``used to594construct a false narrative.''595    Despite Meta's attempts to prevent researchers from596collecting necessary insights, the research we were able to do597continued to show the dangers of Meta's products on users. This598only highlights the sheer scale, severity, and prevalence of599harm on these Meta products.600    In early 2022, I moved to Meta's Reality Labs to lead601integrity research and help improve those using Meta's VR602headsets. Virtual reality allows someone to wear a headset and603experience an alternate reality to play games, watch movies,604socialize with others. For Meta, VR is designed to push605socialization above all as Meta saw this as a path to unbridled606engagement and profit. The company invested billions,607integrated social media like Instagram into headsets, and even608rebranded as, ``Meta to align with the future of the company.''609    From my first days in Reality Labs, Meta leadership, and610legal teams were in complete control of the research I was611conducting. This was crucial research because this was a612largely untested technology, but I soon learned that Meta had613no interest in VR safety unless it could drive interaction and614thus profit.615    After Meta VR sales were banned in Germany for 2 years over616concerns about how Meta treats user data, in 2022, Germany617allowed sales to resume. When I was asked to perform research618in Germany, I understood that Meta was trying to show that619their VR headsets were safe for German users.620    However, when our research uncovered that underage children621using Meta VR in Germany were subject to demands for sex acts,622nude photos, and other acts that no child should ever be623exposed to, Meta demanded that we erase any evidence of such624dangers that we saw.625    Despite Meta's attempts to hide these sensitive findings,626my research still revealed emotional and psychological damage,627particularly to women who were sexually solicited, molested, or628worse. In response, Meta demanded I change my research in the629future to not gather this data on emotional and psychological630harm.631    When my colleagues' research showed the emotional impact of632children being threatened by physical harm by strangers online,633Meta not only restricted internal sharing, but manipulated634reports to obscure any emotional damage during my time working.635    Chair Blackburn. Your time's expired, so let's wrap up.636    Dr. Sattizahn. Of course. If I had one thing to say, I637would just want to make it very clear that Meta is incapable of638change without being forced by Congress. Whether it's639engagement or profits at any cost, they have frankly had640unearned opportunities in order to correct their behavior and641they have not.642    So, with that, I'll say thank you again for the opportunity643to be with you all today, and for your commitment to stop the644deliberate harm for millions of Americans. So, thank you.645    [The prepared statement of Dr. Sattizahn appears as a646submission for the record.]647    Chair Blackburn. Well, thank you. Ms. Savage, you're648recognized for 5 minutes.649650                  STATEMENT OF CAYCE SAVAGE,651           FORMER META RESEARCHER, CHICAGO, ILLINOIS652653    Ms. Savage. Good afternoon, Subcommittee Chair Blackburn,654Ranking Member Klobuchar, Senator Blumenthal, Senator Durbin,655and Senator Padilla.656    I'm a user experience researcher. It is my job to listen to657and advocate for users. I have a graduate degree in658experimental psychology and 12 years of experience working as a659researcher. I do this work because fundamentally I care about660people.661    I worked at Meta from 2019 to 2023. In those 4 years, and662most especially as I led research on youth safety and virtual663reality, it became clear to me that Meta is uninterested and664unwilling to listen to their users or prioritize their safety.665    While I speak about virtual reality, it is important to666understand that the way Meta has approached safety for VR is667emblematic of its negligent approach to safety for all of its668products. The research is clear on what we must do to ensure669that new technology is safe for children.670    Yet, across social media, messaging apps, and now wearable671technology, Meta has failed to prioritize child safety until672they are scrutinized by outside regulators. Then, they scramble673to develop features they know are insufficient and largely674unused, and advertise this as proof of their responsibility.675    Meta is aware that its VR platform is full of underage676children. Meta purposely turns a blind eye to this knowledge,677despite it being obvious to anyone using their products. If678Meta were to acknowledge the presence of underage users, they679would be required to kick off those users from their platform680in order to remain COPPA compliant. This isn't happening681because it would decrease the number of active users Meta is682reporting to shareholders.683    At Meta, engagement is the priority above everything else.684Because VR is immersive and embodied. Negative experiences685cause greater psychological harm than similar experiences on an686iPad or an Xbox. In VR, someone can stand behind your child and687whisper in their ear and your child will feel their presence as688though it is real.689    VR is tracking a user's real-life movements. So, assault in690VR requires those movements to happen in real life. What691happens in virtual reality is reality. Most importantly, Meta692is aware that children are being harmed in VR.693    I quickly became aware that it is not uncommon for children694in VR to experience bullying, sexual assault, to be solicited695for nude photographs and sexual acts by pedophiles, and to be696regularly exposed to mature content like gambling and violence,697and to participate in adult experiences like strip clubs and698watching pornography with strangers.699    I wish I could tell you the percentage of children in VR700experiencing these harms, but Meta would not allow me to701conduct this research. I personally saw these things happening702in VR, consistently heard reports from teens and parents in703research, and read countless accounts from concerned parents704online.705    It's easy to learn that children are not safe using Meta's706VR products just by reading public reviews like this one,707``Thanks, Meta, for making this the pedophile kingdom. They708have made it so easy for us to meet and exchange information709with children here.''710    Meta first acquired Oculus, its VR technology, in 2014. I711was the first and for a time the only researcher dedicated to712understanding whether its VR software experiences were safe for713children. And I wasn't hired until 2022. So, for 8 years, as714tens of millions of headsets were sold, Meta did not think715about the safety of the children it relied on to achieve global716market dominance.717    Throughout my time on Meta's VR Youth Team, child safety718issues regularly went unresearched despite the frequency and719severity of the harm. I was given a legal counterpart to720scrutinize everything that I did, to tell me what research I721could and could not conduct, and to ensure my research reports722would not create risk to Meta should they be publicly723disclosed.724    I was told not to investigate the kinds of harm children725were experiencing in VR, and made to feel I was risking my job726if I pressed the matter. Instead of amplifying the voices of727our users, my work began being used to silence them so that728Meta could claim deniability. I know a number of my colleagues729were put in similar positions.730    Meta cannot be trusted to tell the truth about the safety731or use of its products. Meta says it doesn't have a record of a732large number of underage children using VR. This is because it733has purposefully avoided gathering that data despite members of734Meta's own leadership indicating that even they are unaware of735or don't understand the importance of the minimum age of use.736Despite this, research proposed to address this idea was not737allowed.738    I deliberated for a long time about whether to come739forward. Meta responded to Frances Haugen's disclosure in 2021740by cracking down on research internally. Researchers across the741company were subjected to sudden censorship, and were told it742was for our own protection so we wouldn't be part of any future743leaks.744    Candidly, I am worried that speaking to you today will put745my former colleagues as well as the field of user research746within Meta at risk. To my former colleagues who continue to747advocate internally for child safety, I would like to express748the greatest gratitude and admiration.749    Previous whistleblowers have come before this body to750publicly testify to the suffering adults and children751experience using Meta's products. Meta has promised it would752change. I'm here to tell you today that Meta has changed, but753for the worst. Meta has spent the time and money it could have754spent making its products safer, shielding itself. Instead, all755the while developing emerging technologies which pose even756greater risk to children than Instagram.757    Meta consistently demonstrates that it cares more about the758bottom line than the emotional or physical safety of the759children who use its products every single day. How can Meta760care for the safety of children when it doesn't acknowledge761that they exist?762    Senators thank you again for your time and for your support763regarding this matter.764    [The prepared statement of Ms. Savage appears as a765submission for the record.]766    Chair Blackburn. Thank you, Ms. Savage. We'll begin our767questioning now, and Ms. Savage, let me start with you. You768talk about Meta's refusal to acknowledge the harms, but I think769many people who are watching this hearing today don't know what770those harms would be. So, just very quickly, let's talk about771if you were an 8-year-old girl and what you would experience in772an unsafe situation in the Metaverse.773    Ms. Savage. Yes, thank you. I think it's important to start774by describing briefly what it's like to use VR especially775because a lot of parents haven't. So, you know, you're wearing776a headset on your head, it's strapped to your face, and it777completely obscures your vision and your hearing. So, you can778no longer see the real world around you, which can also feel779very vulnerable because you know, people can come up behind you780in real life. And this means that some of the experiences in VR781can feel heightened because you're already feeling vulnerable.782    VR is designed to be immersive and embodied. That's it's783appeal. And so, when you experience things in VR, they feel784meaningfully more real, psychologically, more real than if you785were to experience that same thing on a television. You also786have an avatar that you are embodying, and which research shows787us you identify with. So, if something happens to your avatar,788it feels like it's happening to you.789    It's also important to note that this is a social space.790So, there are other users with bodies that can corner you, that791can surround you, that can touch you. And folks can also speak792to you.793    Chair Blackburn. And let me add in there users who are not794known to you.795    Ms. Savage. Yes. That's a very good point. It's most common796for you to be interacting with people you don't know in real797life. And a lot of parents in my research indicated that they798weren't aware that their children were interacting with799strangers.800    Dr. Sattizahn. Just to be very explicit because it's not801something that I think a lot of people have exposure with, when802we talk about, you know, harms for children and for adults in803VR, and we talk about things that are said, the audio that's804transmitted isn't just solicitation or speech.805    There will also be instances that we have seen of where you806can hear people sexually pleasuring themselves transmitted over807audio in a spatial sense as you are being surrounded and being808harassed. So, it's not just simple statements, it's actually809the transmission of the motion and the audio of sex acts810itself.811    Chair Blackburn. And so, that is what causes children to812have the physiological and psychological response as if it were813happening to them in the real world.814    Ms. Savage. Yes, exactly. Visually and auditorily. It feels815real.816    Chair Blackburn. Okay, Dr. Sattizahn, I want to come to817you. Senator Blumenthal and I wrote to Meta back in April,818really sounding the alarm on some of their policies that with819AI chatbots entering into sensual conversations with children820and these policies went so far as to allow chatbots to tell a821shirtless boy, and I'll quote this, ``Every inch of you is a822masterpiece, a treasure I cherish deeply.'' So, you've been823through this process at Meta dealing with them.824    Does it surprise you that they would allow their chatbots825to engage in these conversations with children?826    Dr. Sattizahn. No, not at all. One thing that I'd like to827just, you know, sort of caveat this is I never directly worked828on the Meta AI chatbot team, but I did work directly on829Facebook ranking. And to not get in the tech weeds with this830Facebook ranking, ranking in general is sort of a sibling to831artificial intelligence. It's actually something that's832included with AI algorithms.833    And when I worked on the Facebook ranking team, I was834working on how algorithms could be used to, you know, keep835people safer. Whenever they see things that are shown to them836in Marketplace, they see sexual content, we take it away, et837cetera. Ranking is something that uses, generally speaking,838more structured data that is easier to control for safety. And839even when I was working on ranking, that was something that840when I would try to work on the teams to improve safety, they841were unable to do.842    Chair Blackburn. Okay. Let me ask you this. Talking about843algorithms, I know Meta has said TikTok is their main844competitor. So, is Meta intentionally intensifying their845algorithms in order to be able to compete more closely with846TikTok?847    Dr. Sattizahn. It's so much sillier than that. When I848attempted to look at things called coefficients or variables to849make these algorithms safer, the engineers themselves told me850that they didn't actually look at them. Because if the851algorithm predicted it and engagement went up, then it must be852good.853    So, to answer your original question, no, this doesn't854surprise me at all because in the context of something like855ranking, if they can't figure it out, I have no idea why they856would ever be able to figure it out with an AI as well.857    Chair Blackburn. Got it. Senator Klobuchar, you're858recognized.859    Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank860you for your testimony. Mr. Sattizahn, we talked about Frances861Haugen. And her testimony in 2021, I asked whether the work of862Meta's internal researchers, people like yourselves, is863thorough and reliable. She said then that Meta had a top-ranked864research program, and that its researchers were some of the865biggest heroes inside the company in answer to my question,866because they were willing to boldly ask real questions, which I867truly appreciate. I believe that for many of them that was868true.869    Could you tell me how did Meta's top-ranked research870program, which you were a part of, change after she exposed871that Meta's platforms frequently caused significant harm to872young users? And be somewhat brief, but thank you.873    Dr. Sattizahn. Of course. So, from after 2021, after the,874the Frances Haugen disclosure, there was essentially what I875always refer to as a funnel manipulation put on research. What876I mean by that is every stage of research before, during, and877after its creation was locked down, monitored by either legal878teams or management themselves.879    I'll be very brief to summarize this one my colleague880brought up is legal surveillance. That's having a lawyer881constantly look over things and possibly edit them. That is882limiting the topics, the questions, the methods that you can883use before you even collect data. It's the monitoring of884research.885    So, you might have legal actually watching the data you886collect and you are told to erase it proactively if they887believe it is too sensitive. And it's even going as far to once888reports are written, legal will go in and directly alter the889findings themselves, or demand that you take them out before890publishing them.891    Generally speaking, there was this increase after 2021 to892also silo the research into sort of closed off areas. And so,893my ability to go to my colleagues and talk about safety and894say, ``Hey, here's some data that you need on Facebook895Groups,'' et cetera, went away.896    Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Let me just do some--that was very897helpful--some quick yes or no questions because one of the898things that I think really bothers these parents who've lost899children, or have children who are just simply addicted to900these platforms is that it appears and there's good proof that901they are more interested, the company, in their bottom line902than protecting these kids.903    Just yes or no, did Meta stop research projects into child904safety, do you believe, because it didn't want to know the905result.906    Dr. Sattizahn. Yes.907    Senator Klobuchar. And did Meta restrict the information908researchers could collect about child safety to preserve909plausible deniability?910    Dr. Sattizahn. Yes.911    Senator Klobuchar. And did Meta alter research designs to912avoid collecting certain information?913    Dr. Sattizahn. Yes.914    Senator Klobuchar. And did Meta modify research reports and915results?916    Dr. Sattizahn. Yes.917    Senator Klobuchar. And did Meta require researchers to918delete data that showed harm to kids that was occurring on its919platforms?920    Dr. Sattizahn. Yes.921    Senator Klobuchar. Okay. I think that says it all. Thank922you. Ms. Savage, while at Meta you proposed research to better923understand the age of children using virtual reality. So, now,924we're phasing into our current State, this project called925Project Horton, right? Horton. Who it was named after Dr.926Seuss.927    Ms. Savage. Yes.928    Senator Klobuchar. Because these kids are that young, was929initially approved by Meta's chief technology officer and930funded for more than $1 million. Is that right?931    Ms. Savage. That's correct.932    Senator Klobuchar. So, what happened to that research933project?934    Ms. Savage. It was canceled with no explanation, which at935Meta is very unusual.936    Senator Klobuchar. And given that the research was approved937by the company's chief technology officer, who at Meta could938have overruled that decision and shut the project down,939    Ms. Savage. To my knowledge, the only have the person is940Mark Zuckerberg.941    Senator Klobuchar. Why do you think Meta's top leadership942canceled the research?943    Ms. Savage. If Meta were to improve the quality of its944ability to identify the true age of its users, it would be945required to shut down such a large number of accounts that it946would meaningfully drop their engagement metrics.947    Senator Klobuchar. How does turning a blind eye to the948actual age of a young user in virtual reality put young users949at risk?950    Ms. Savage. In so many ways. Part of development is that951children are still developing the ability to distinguish952between reality and fantasy. So, particularly for very young953children that are in VR, things that happen may have more954significant psychological effect.955    The research on this is still ongoing. So, we don't know956the full extent of this. But of course, the most egregious harm957that we're aware of currently is that VR is very social. And958it's typical that that social interaction is happening between959a child and a stranger. And avatars all look the same age. So,960whether that other person's a child or an adult, we don't know.961    Senator Klobuchar. So, the Children's Online Privacy962Protection Act requires parental consent for the collection of963personal data of users under 13. Yet, we have heard testimony964today that Meta new users under 13 were on its virtual reality965platforms.966    Instead of addressing the issue, Meta, we believe,967suppressed research that could have confirmed the presence of968young users. How prevalent in your mind were users under the969age of 13 on Meta's virtual reality platform and was Meta aware970of the problem?971    Ms. Savage. It's such an issue that every single time I972have used VR personally, the majority of individuals that I973have observed or interacted with have been audibly under the974age of 13. It is something that is the top complaint, to my975knowledge, publicly for any other user that uses VR. It's976something that our own, or Meta's own, you know, leadership977would frequently post and be like, ``Hey, here's a video of my9786-year-old.''979    Senator Klobuchar. And was Meta's leadership aware of the980presence of kids under 13 then?981    Ms. Savage. Yes.982    Senator Klobuchar. Did Meta take any steps to ensure it was983not collecting data from these young users without parental984consent?985    Ms. Savage. It didn't have the ability to identify which986users were under 13, so it wouldn't have had that ability.987    Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Last question, back to you and988very briefly, Mr. Sattizahn. Last month, I sent a letter with989Senator Britt, Schatz and seven other Senators to Meta raising990significant concerns about its internal policies that allow its991generative AI chatbots to have romantic or sensual992conversations with kids.993    Given your experience, do you think Meta was aware of the994potential harms to kids that could occur by letting its995chatbots engage in such conversations with kids?996    Dr. Sattizahn. Yes. Meta has direct and global initiatives,997for years now, to target youth across all of their products.998    Senator Klobuchar. Do you have any reason to believe that999Meta is doing more to protect kids in its AI work than its1000virtual reality work?1001    Dr. Sattizahn. To my knowledge, no.1002    Senator Klobuchar. Thank you.1003    Chair Blackburn. Senator Hawley.1004    Senator Hawley. Ms. Savage, let me just pick up where1005Senator Klobuchar just left off. You said that in your1006experience, a majority of VR users are under the age of 13.1007    Ms. Savage. That's correct.1008    Senator Hawley. And that this is apparent to Meta1009leadership, you said?1010    Ms. Savage. Yes. It's apparent to anyone who uses the1011product.1012    Senator Hawley. Who in particular in Meta leadership.1013    Ms. Savage. I'm curious if you remember any particular1014posts, but I know it's apparent to at least C-Suite.1015    Dr. Sattizahn. Correct. There were legal directors, for1016instance, who would consistently monitor employees who would1017post underage videos of their own children using VR. So, this1018was directly visible to leadership who were posting these1019videos and having it removed internally.1020    Senator Hawley. Mark Zuckerberg is aware of this, yes or1021no?1022    Dr. Sattizahn. He would have to be.1023    Senator Hawley. I bet it's a yes. Ms. Savage?1024    Ms. Savage. The only way that he would not be aware is if1025he had never used his own headset.1026    Senator Hawley. Well, that's extraordinary. And it's1027particularly extraordinary because let's take a look at1028actually Mark Zuckerberg's testimony. Mark Zuckerberg has1029testified before this Committee as recently as just last year,1030January 31, 2024. Let's put it up so we can see it. He says,1031this is Zuckerberg testifying, ``We don't allow people under1032the age of 13 on our service. So, if anyone who's under the age1033of 13, if we find them, we remove them from our service.''1034    [Poster is displayed.]1035    And then in response to another question, he says, ``We1036don't want users under the age of 13.'' We don't want users1037under the age of 13. Ms. Savage, is this true?1038    Ms. Savage. That's an interesting quote. I mean, it would1039require the user to be honest about their age, in which case1040Meta would kick them off. But from research, even before Meta1041acquired the Oculus technology, we know that children are1042usually not using an account that accurately reflects their age1043for several reasons. The want part is interesting to me. I1044don't think their behavior matches that sentiment.1045    Senator Hawley. Dr. Sattizahn, is it true that Meta does1046not want users under the age of 13 on the platform in any of1047their services?1048    Dr. Sattizahn. I'd like to go back to the point that you1049made in response to this; that if they did, their value, their1050engagement, their profits would go through the floor. In this1051quote, if is doing a lot of work because they have taken no1052substantive efforts to make sure that their understanding that1053there are kids under 13. It's a lie by avoidance and Meta knows1054it.1055    Senator Hawley. It's a lie by avoidance. So, in other1056words, Mark Zuckerberg, when he testified this last year, I1057want to emphasize, so isn't 10 years ago, this is barely 101058months ago. This was just last year when Mark Zuckerberg says,1059we don't want people who are under age 13, they're not on our1060platform. And your testimony here today is, in fact, they're1061rampant on the platform, and Meta is specifically targeting1062them. Isn't that your testimony?1063    Ms. Savage. Yes, that's correct.1064    Senator Hawley. So, Mark Zuckerberg has once again,1065deliberately misled and lied to the American people. I mean,1066this is really, really extraordinary.1067    Let me just make sure that I understand the full import of1068what you're testifying to. Dr. Sattizahn, if I could just come1069back to you. You have testified that Meta erases evidence of1070sexual abuse on its VR platform. Is that correct?1071    Dr. Sattizahn. Correct.1072    Senator Hawley. That Meta changes research to not gather1073data on emotional and sexual harm once it became aware that it1074was rampant. Is that correct?1075    Dr. Sattizahn. That is correct.1076    Senator Hawley. That Meta manipulates results of data to1077obscure any harm or other damage, shall we say, to users. Is1078that correct?1079    Dr. Sattizahn. That's correct.1080    Senator Hawley. Why do the research at all?1081    Dr. Sattizahn. That's a great question. You have to do1082research. Actually, going back to my earlier point. The, the1083siloing of research helps explain this. When you put the most1084sensitive research into sort of bucket where no one else sees1085it, all of the other research that's done is phenomenal. And1086other researchers of the company are great at their job. They1087help make the product look better, play better, and experience1088better, but they're not thinking about safety or integrity1089because they're told not to.1090    Senator Hawley. Well, my question is why do any research at1091all on harms? You've testified that you were doing research on1092harms, other people did research on harms, but Meta and its1093various entities, legal, et cetera, the C-Suite, would1094intervene and say, not that, change this, scrub that. Why do1095any of it to begin with then?1096    Dr. Sattizahn. It comes down to the facts that some1097research is necessary to create a paper trail in order to show1098that you are doing it.1099    Senator Hawley. Yes, exactly.1100    Dr. Sattizahn. For instance, privacy work, you have to show1101that you are abiding by some sort of general data privacy,1102whether you're in one country or another, and you have to have1103that on record. But there are some things that are too1104sensitive to be done, et cetera,1105    Senator Hawley. Isn't it precisely so that you can come1106before bodies like this one and go before the public and go1107before your shareholders and say, we're doing research on harm.1108We're doing gobs of research on harm. What they don't tell you1109is they're altering the research on harm.1110    The whole point of doing it is so you can lie about it and1111create the impression that, in fact, as Zuckerberg testified to1112this Committee, oh, we're tracking it closely, when in fact,1113they're lying about it through their teeth. I mean, isn't that1114in fact what's going on?1115    Dr. Sattizahn. If I may?1116    Senator Hawley. Please.1117    Dr. Sattizahn. Yesterday Andy Stone spokesperson from Meta1118actually used this exact same excuse, a tweet about 12 hours1119ago, where his response to The Washington Post article, which1120is we predicted a year ago, was, we have done over 180 studies,1121including topics such as youth harm, et cetera.1122    That response, again, is a lie by avoidance because it's1123pointing out some number that means nothing. The whole point of1124this testimony is that the research they're doing is being1125pruned and manipulated. Yet, now they're going before yourself,1126a government body, the public, and saying, ``But look, we did1127some research.''1128    Senator Hawley. Why is having children under the age of 13,1129why is it so important to Meta? You both testified to this,1130your declarations testified to it. Why is it so important to1131Meta? Go ahead, Ms. Savage.1132    Ms. Savage. Children drive product adoption in the1133household, and VR is a gaming device.1134    Senator Hawley. So, they drive product adoption, which1135means what for Meta, just cash it out for us?1136    Ms. Savage. That means the reason that families buy VR1137headsets is for kids.1138    Senator Hawley. Which means more money for Meta.1139    Ms. Savage. Yes.1140    Senator Hawley. So, this is about profits at the end of the1141day?1142    Ms. Savage. Yes.1143    Senator Hawley. Let's just be really clear. Meta's number1144one, bottom line is money. It is profits bar nothing. That's1145it. And what you're testifying to is they will do anything,1146anything, including exposing our children to the most vile1147sexual abuse if it means more profits for Meta. Have I got that1148right?1149    Ms. Savage. Yes. If I may?1150    Senator Hawley. Please.1151    Ms. Savage. When I was doing research to identify the harms1152that children were facing in VR, which I had to be sneaky about1153because legal wouldn't actually let me do it, I identified that1154Roblox, the app in VR was being used by coordinated pedophile1155rings. They set up strip clubs and they pay children to strip,1156and that Robux can be converted into real money.1157    So, and I flagged this to Meta. I said, under no1158circumstances should we host the app Roblox on their headset.1159You can now download it in their app store.1160    Senator Hawley. I'm going to turn my this back over to the1161Chairwoman because my time has expired. I just want to end by1162saying this; it is abundantly clear to me that it is time to1163allow parents and victims to sue this company. They have got to1164be able to get into court, and to get in front of a jury, and1165hold this company accountable. And that begins with Mark1166Zuckerberg. There has to be accountability. We need to open the1167courtroom doors and allow victims to have their day in court.1168Thank you, Madam Chair.1169    Ms. Savage. Senator Padilla, you're recognized.1170    Senator Padilla. Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you to1171the witnesses for being here. Mr. Sattizahn in your written1172testimony, you shared that in January 2023, you launched a1173survey of Meta virtual reality users, including minors and1174adults. That survey revealed that nearly half of Meta's VR1175users experienced harm, and 1 in 10 users experienced severe1176harm such as racism or sexual inappropriateness. These aren't1177isolated incidents. They reflect a systematic problem across1178the platform. Correct me if you disagree.1179    Dr. Sattizahn. Not at all.1180    Senator Padilla. Okay. So, your survey also showed that1181Meta users, including minors, didn't know enough about the1182tools that exists intended to keep them safe. And yet, after1183your study revealed this, Meta denied multiple requests to1184invest in user education. Is that your understanding?1185    Dr. Sattizahn. This is correct.1186    Senator Padilla. Okay. Like I asked, not just as a Senator,1187but as a parent, to think that Meta would have resources1188available to better keep kids safe but not implement them is1189beyond troubling. Just as we don't allow car companies to sell1190vehicles without seat belts anymore, or drug companies to1191market medicines without clear safety labels medicines, VR1192system should be no different.1193    So, my first question to you is; what resources would have1194been helpful? Who denied these requests and why?1195    Dr. Sattizahn. The resourcing that would be helpful is1196staffing is money. You know, I mentioned in my disclosure over1197my 6 years at Meta, I was always in this exact space; integrity1198and safety. One constant over my 6 years was not having enough1199money to build for safety. Our engineering staff was always1200understaffed. Research staff was always understaffed. You might1201have noticed, but I was the only researcher for integrity1202across virtual reality software.1203    That still gives me goosebumps when I think about it1204because I think I'm a good researcher. No researcher's good1205enough to cover that whole space by themselves. The thing that1206would've helped is taking the resourcing from chasing the next1207shiny object just to boost, you know, user engagement and given1208some of those resources that time, that money to our teams1209trying to build for safer products.1210    Senator Padilla. Thank you. Now, I also recall a hearing1211that we had in the last Congress in this Committee when CEOs of1212the five social media companies, including Meta testified to.1213There was a full Committee, not the Subcommittee. And I recall1214asking each of them to share data with us about not just the1215tools available for minors and for parents, but what the1216adoption rates were for those tools.1217    Surprise, surprise, they didn't share a whole ton of1218information, and what limited data we did receive suggested1219that the adoption rates were very low. So, as a followup1220question, in your testimony wrote through your survey research1221that virtually no one used parental supervision controls in1222Meta VR. Why are adoption rates so low, and what can be done,1223should be done to improve those adoption rates?1224    Dr. Sattizahn. Yes, so both my colleague and I have worked1225in this space so long that we've known at Meta internally that1226these types of parental controls were not sufficient to keep1227individuals safe. I'd have to go back, and I'm happy to1228followup on this, I believe the earliest report that I saw was1229from 2018, an Instagram report showing that these types of1230parental controls that I believe Mr. Zuckerberg was referring1231to, in this case, were not sufficient for parents to keep1232children safe.1233    And so, when we look into my research and we see somewhere1234between, I believe it was 2 to 10 percent of adoption rates, it1235didn't surprise me because not even the children who are1236experiencing VR in this case even see these things as valuable1237because from the onset, they weren't actually built to be1238valuable for those people using them. I don't know if you have1239anything to add because you also work in this space.1240    Senator Padilla. Ms. Savage, please.1241    Ms. Savage. If I may, I mean, certainly the parental1242supervision tools are not sufficient, in large part, because1243there's no parent education. And particularly, when we're1244talking about VR, we know that usually the kids are the ones1245using the headsets and the parents are not using VR, and it's1246fundamentally a different world.1247    So, parents don't understand the risks that children face.1248They don't understand the ways that they should be supervising.1249And this is something that I flagged to Meta leadership that we1250needed to make a priority. And it has not been meaningfully1251actioned on, so.1252    Senator Padilla. Okay. Well, I thank you both for your1253testimony, and may followup with questions for the record after1254the hearing today. Thank you.1255    Chair Blackburn. Senator Moody, you're recognized.1256    Senator Moody. Good afternoon. Thank you for joining us.1257It's heartbreaking that we have to have this hearing. I'm one1258of the newest U.S. Senators here in Washington, and when I was1259in Florida, I was the attorney general. And one of the hardest1260things for me as attorney general was balancing being a mother1261with a school-aged child and also being the attorney general on1262behalf of the State, protecting the all of the children in1263Florida.1264    And as difficult as that was, of being the first mom on our1265cabinet of the school-aged child, I thought it brought to me a1266perspective and almost an urgency in focusing on some of these1267issues, whether that meant vaping going on in our elementary1268schools or predators getting to our children online.1269    And I think what you're saying today is something that I1270have been trying to tell everyone. We really are the first1271generation of parents having to raise kids in this age of1272social media, and VR, and online platforms when Congress has1273done nothing to keep up with the evolution of technology. And1274they're basically saying, figure it out yourselves. It's the1275Wild, Wild West.1276    And you are saying today that they knew not only that1277parents really didn't know how to use it, but they weren't1278using parental controls. Is that correct? Yes or no?1279    Ms. Savage. That's correct.1280    Dr. Sattizahn. That's correct.1281    Senator Moody. So, I would consider myself pretty1282knowledgeable in this area, considering I was one of the first1283attorney generals to sue Meta in court for damaging and harming1284our children. And yet, it doesn't surprise you that someone1285like me who has all of this knowledge had to go to my own child1286and say, ``How do I find the parental controls?''1287    Ms. Savage. Not at all.1288    Dr. Sattizahn. Not at all.1289    Senator Moody. And you believe that Meta knew this?1290    Ms. Savage. Yes.1291    Dr. Sattizahn. Yes.1292    Senator Moody. One of the other things that is shocking,1293what I've tried to tell other parents, and they're finding this1294out slowly at surely because if their children haven't been1295harmed, their friends have been harmed. And we used to say, had1296of rules that we all knew as parents, don't go to that van,1297don't take that candy, don't do this, don't talk to that1298stranger. Stranger danger. Stranger danger now exists in our1299children's bedrooms. Is that correct?1300    Ms. Savage. That's correct.1301    Dr. Sattizahn. Correct.1302    Senator Moody. And did you find in your research, and is1303there documentation at Meta, and do employees know that1304children under 13, or let's say children under 18, are being1305propositioned and harmed by predators?1306    Ms. Savage. Yes.1307    Dr. Sattizahn. Yes.1308    Senator Moody. And you're saying that Meta knew this, and a1309way to deal with that is they brought in a team of lawyers to1310tell their researchers what language to use in reports so that1311it could qualify as attorney client privilege?1312    Ms. Savage. Yes.1313    Dr. Sattizahn. Correct.1314    Senator Moody. So, if there was a warehouse, and someone1315knew that children were inside that warehouse being harmed by1316adults, do you think it would be sufficient to have a lawyer1317work with the people outside to make it conducive, or allow for1318or cover up what was happening to the children in the1319warehouse?1320    Ms. Savage. Of course not.1321    Dr. Sattizahn. Not at all.1322    Senator Moody. But because it's on an online space, we're1323expected to all just take it because they brought in a team of1324lawyers and taught them what language to use1325    Ms. Savage. And they think parents don't know about the1326warehouse.1327    Senator Moody. And I believe there was a report that said1328Meta proposed two ways that researchers could limit the risk of1329conducting sensitive research. One suggestion was to loop1330lawyers into their research, protecting their communications1331from ``adverse parties.'' And I'm using quotes there. I'm1332assuming the adverse parties mean parents and kids. Due to1333attorney-client privilege. Researchers could also write about1334their findings more vaguely avoiding terms like noncompliant or1335illegal. Is that correct?1336    Ms. Savage. Yes.1337    Senator Moody. Is that correct?1338    Dr. Sattizahn. It is correct.1339    Senator Moody. I've been a lawyer. I've been a judge. I1340don't know if attorney-client privilege covers lawyers that are1341complicit and help with facilitating an ongoing violation of1342law, especially when it relates to harming children. But yet,1343you as researchers, were instructed to use different language1344and include lawyers so that this could all be shielded.1345    Ms. Savage. Yes.1346    Dr. Sattizahn. May I add something to this?1347    Senator Moody. Please.1348    Dr. Sattizahn. We were also threatened by lawyers. I want1349to make that clear. It wasn't a suggestion. It wasn't research1350guidance. Meta has already claimed that in The Washington Post.1351It wasn't legal being able to make the research better. We,1352both of us, had met with legal and they threatened our own jobs1353if we did not do this. One of the quotes they said was, ``You1354wouldn't want to have to testify publicly if this research was1355to get out, would you?'' And we're here. So, clearly, we didn't1356mind that.1357    Senator Moody. Well, aside from ethical obligations of1358lawyers, I'm pretty sure attorney-client privilege doesn't1359cover the cooperation, and planning, and enabling of the1360continued violation of laws. And I appreciate you, Madam1361Chairman, for being here today and conducting this hearing.1362    Chair Blackburn. Absolutely. And before I turn to Senator1363Coons. I want to followup on what you were saying. Here's the1364Oculus headset box. And we know that only 2 percent of parents1365use the parental controls. So, when I got this, I went through1366looking for where are the parental controls.1367    I have two grandsons. I know that they enjoy this. And1368right here on the bottom of the box is one tiny QR code, one1369SKU right here, one code. And that is what a parent would have1370to go to after they put their glasses on [laughter] to try to1371find this thing, and then find that that is something that they1372can scan and then pull this up.1373    I would just be curious; do we have any of the lobbyist for1374the social media platforms in the room today? I haven't seen1375anyone, I think. I think they probably don't have enough1376courage to come and face these parents that are here today. And1377again, we thank you. Senator Coons, you're recognized.1378    Senator Coons. Thank you so much, Senator Blackburn,1379Senator Klobuchar, for convening this important hearing today,1380and to our two witnesses for your courage, your determination1381to make sure that the truth gets out, protecting our children1382from harm. It's the highest obligation all of us have.1383    And it must have been so difficult for you to work for a1384company that in some ways does admirable things, delivers great1385services, but that as you serve there longer and longer, you1386began to realize was knowingly, and willingly, willfully1387blinding themselves to the harm that their products and1388services cause children. And then taking aggressive action to1389prevent you from studying or understanding the harm being1390caused to children, and then try to prevent you from1391communicating about that to anyone.1392    So, here you are today testifying in front of the Senate1393Judiciary Committee to a bipartisan panel that includes1394seasoned prosecutors and seasoned Senators and parents and1395grandparents. And frankly, your testimony has been alarming,1396even jaw dropping.1397    To summarize, Meta prioritized engagement over safety for1398billions. And when you tried to inform them of demonstrable1399harm and risk to children, they first turned a blind eye, and1400then tried to handcuff or blind you and others charged with1401research and promoting integrity. So, whether it's artificial1402intelligence or social media or virtual reality, we are in a1403very difficult period for parents.1404    As Senator Blackburn just demonstrated, many of us lack the1405focus, skill, and ability to navigate the exact path toward1406parental controls on systems our kids are employing. And so, a1407very small percentage of parents are effectively protecting1408their children. They would expect that businesses that provide1409these services would test whether they're safe and would build1410them to be safe for children.1411    Yet, your testimony proves otherwise. This ends up1412happening because there's a huge imbalance in power between Big1413Tech platforms who have all the data and all the power to1414understand the impact of their products, and engineer them to1415favor safety of the children and families, the policymakers,1416and the advocacy groups who have no way to get that insight.1417    Addressing this imbalance of power is a fundamental and1418essential component of ensuring we're protecting our kids1419online. I want to talk briefly about three bills that I've1420introduced or am developing that are designed to help address1421this. The first, with Senator Cassidy, is the Platform1422Accountability and Transparency Act. It creates mechanisms for1423independent researchers to study what's happening on social1424media platforms, how their algorithms drive engagement over1425safety.1426    Second, with Senator Grassley, a bill to protect1427whistleblowers, particularly in the space of artificial1428intelligence who come forward to disclose serious safety1429violations or vulnerabilities. And then last, a bill I'm1430developing to create similar mechanisms for independent1431research and transparency in artificial intelligence platforms.1432    If we don't move forward bills like these and some of the1433bills my colleagues have championed, we are continuing to allow1434Big Tech to grade their own homework, to build their own1435platforms, and to continue to cruise forward toward1436profitability through engagement, blinded or uncaring about the1437harm to our children.1438    So, Mr. Sattizahn, if I might, your testimony about all the1439ways that Meta buried or hindered internal research is just1440stunning. Given what you saw on the inside, could you just say1441a few words about the value and importance of ensuring there's1442mechanisms for independent researchers to actually study what's1443happening, whether it's in virtual reality, social media1444platforms, or AI?1445    Dr. Sattizahn. Yes, thank you so much for going over those1446three different initiatives as well.1447    Senator Coons. Thank you.1448    Dr. Sattizahn. I'd say, you know, over the last 6 years, it1449was very clear to me that they will not change from the inside1450out. Meta will not change from the inside out. And during my1451long tenure there, the only things that actually led to1452professionalism or doing the right thing was Meta's fear of1453losing control; whether that was losing control over their own1454finances or losing control from some regulation or oversight1455coming in from the outside.1456    So, all I have to say is, I love that phrase, they cannot1457grade their own homework because the only thing that will1458change the company is initiatives like that vying for1459independence, because as I've also testified, is if we rely on1460their own research, it will just be altered, changed, or even1461just erased. I don't know if you had anything to add.1462    Senator Coons. Dr. Sattizahn and Ms. Savage, if you would,1463what's most important for us to get right in legislation that1464ensures access for independent researchers?1465    Ms. Savage. I think, I mean, partially starting at1466collection, starting with the methods that are being used to1467gather the data the populations that we're looking at, et1468cetera, but also having access to the data before it's1469analyzed. That's very critical.1470    Senator Coons. Ms. Savage, could you talk about the ways1471Meta specifically discouraged employees from coming forward as1472whistleblowers, and what more robust whistleblower protections1473might be important in order to ensure that, we, policymakers,1474the public, parents, know about the risks their kids are1475facing?1476    Ms. Savage. Absolutely. I think the most powerful weapon1477that Meta had internally was narrative. After Frances Haugen's1478disclosure, Meta referred to the incident as a leak and1479frequently said, ``Oh, this this was so harmful to the1480researchers whose reports were shared. This has really been1481harmful for our ability to do good research and actually1482investigate harms to users.''1483    In terms of actual whistleblower protections. I think part1484of it is the folks who are actually whistleblowing, but also1485the folks who remain at the company who do the investigation.1486I'm curious if you have anything to add there.1487    Dr. Sattizahn. I think it was phenomenal.1488    Senator Coons. And my sense is that, in closing, that good1489research is independent, unbiased, repeatable, and through1490legal action can lead to improvements in product safety. Thank1491you, Madam Chair.1492    Chair Blackburn. Senator Schiff, you're recognized.1493    Senator Schiff. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you and1494Senator Klobuchar for organizing this hearing today. And thank1495you both for your courage in coming forward and speaking out. I1496can only imagine how difficult that has been, but so vitally1497necessary if there's ever going to be any change not just with1498respect to Meta, but with respect to the whole ecosystem.1499    I wanted to ask you in some of your prepared remarks or1500things you said in the past, you identified information1501essentially that Meta's legal department or others willfully1502erased, removed. Can you tell us specifically what you're1503referring to there?1504    Dr. Sattizahn. Sure. So, I would like to contextualize this1505with an example. I was running a survey, for instance, that I1506discussed a little bit in my disclosure where we found explicit1507information showing that women were being emotionally and1508psychologically harmed.1509    After that survey was released, legal came to me, a legal1510team came to me and said this survey will not run in the future1511no matter what, unless you take those questions out. That would1512be something along the funnel that they are preventing any1513additional data from being collected around that topic.1514    In other instances where I saw emotional or psychological1515harm as one example, and I had already written the report,1516legal actually opened the report with me and said, ``You have1517to take out these slides. You have to take out these lines.''1518    And for context, in research, all data on the backend needs1519to be deleted in 90 days. So, if legal is going into a report1520and taking out lines or slides, they're effectively simply1521erasing the data anyway because it's our ethical duty as1522researchers to erase everyone's other private data before we1523analyze it as well.1524    So, those are just a couple examples of things, ways that1525they would remove that information.1526    Senator Schiff. And what kind of justification, if any, did1527they give you for deleting that data or instructing you not to1528ask those questions? How overt were they the about concerns1529that this would expand their exposure, or these were answers1530they didn't want to know, or they just wanted to purge the1531record of anything that didn't reflect well? I mean, what's the1532point of doing research if you're going to so bias the result?1533But what did they articulate as a justification?1534    Dr. Sattizahn. Legal's repeated, explicit statements to me1535was that we did not want this data because it was too risky for1536us to have, because if there was an outside audit, it would be1537discovered that Meta knew about these harms. That was said to1538me dozens of times by my direct legal partners that I was1539forced to work with from Meta.1540    Senator Schiff. And was there any pushback to that idea1541within Meta that is, were there others at Meta who were saying1542we're seeing real harms here and whether you minimize your1543legal exposure or not, the harms are taking place, something1544has to be done about this. Was there any kind of pushback like1545that?1546    Dr. Sattizahn. There was. I know myself I went to both1547management and leadership over years with this, and it was1548entirely denigrated and pushed aside. Other researchers that I1549knew who shared similar concerns, either left the company, or1550were in direct fear of losing their role and decided to stop1551speaking up about it out of, you know, retaliation and losing1552their job.1553    Senator Schiff. And the management that rejected these1554concerns out of hand, how did they reject them? What was their1555argument?1556    Dr. Sattizahn. In one instance, my direct manager stated1557that she agreed with me and that I might very well be right,1558but that we needed to listen to legal anyway because that was1559the instruction.1560    Senator Schiff. And did that kind of instruction, in your1561view, reflect the top leadership at the company essentially was1562legal following what they believed to be the culture of the1563very top leadership at Meta?1564    Dr. Sattizahn. When this entire change after Haugen1565happened, leading to what we're discussing now, it went as high1566as Meta CTO, Andrew Bosworth, arguing with people one-on-one in1567comment sections about researchers speaking out about these1568problems. The CTO of the company was arguing with researchers1569like us who were speaking up saying that this lockdown on1570research was inappropriate.1571    Senator Schiff. And do you have any sense from your1572colleagues who are or were within similar positions in other of1573the tech companies, whether what you were experiencing was an1574anomaly, or whether what you're experiencing is really the rule1575within the industry that is see no evil here, no evil don't1576have to address any evil or any ill result no matter how dire1577might be on young people?1578    Dr. Sattizahn. Yes. After working at Sony PlayStation, at1579Meta, and working directly with individuals who worked at1580Google, et cetera, I can say that this is pure Meta.1581    Senator Schiff. So, this is. So, you think this particular1582culture is unique to Meta?1583    Dr. Sattizahn. Correct. Every tech company has issues with1584schedules and the fast pace leading to certain tradeoffs, but1585this culture of kowtowing to legal blindly, I have not heard of1586it anywhere else.1587    Senator Schiff. Thank you, Madam Chair,1588    Chair Blackburn. Thank you so much. I think there's1589interest in a second round of questions, and if you all don't1590mind, we will proceed to that.1591    I want to stay right with this funnel of manipulation and1592look at that. I know that Frances Haugen had talked about the1593risk Meta became paranoid and then they talked about not the1594risk to kids and to people that were on their platform, but the1595risk to their bottom line. Is that accurate? Okay, y'all are1596nodding. Yes.1597    Ms. Savage. That's correct.1598    Chair Blackburn. Okay. So, in order to get legal1599protection, so they couldn't be hauled into court, they went to1600third-party vendors, correct, and Dr. Sattizahn, you want to1601talk about that for a moment?1602    Dr. Sattizahn. Correct. So, one part of this funnel of1603manipulation was that legal's consistent guidance across nearly1604every study I ran, and I know my colleague, Ms. Savage, ran as1605well, was that we were required to have third-party vendors1606collect data for us. Just for the record, third-party vendors1607are individuals who are not Meta employees, but are paid via1608contract to collect data for Meta.1609    The explicit expressed reason that legal was telling us to1610have third-party vendors collect the data was so that the data1611could be erased if they found anything that was ``too1612sensitive''.1613    Chair Blackburn. So, therefore, they would have some1614protection.1615    Dr. Sattizahn. Correct.1616    Chair Blackburn. And some distance and would not have that1617liability.1618    Dr. Sattizahn. Correct.1619    Chair Blackburn. Okay. Did you find it odd you worked at1620Play-Station, and PlayStation has recommended ages for1621PlayStation?1622    Dr. Sattizahn. That's correct.1623    Chair Blackburn. Movies have age recommendations and1624ratings. Video games, likewise. Did you find it odd that Oculus1625did not have an age rating, that they had escaped?1626    Dr. Sattizahn. That I did. I found it very odd indeed.1627    Chair Blackburn. Did you raise that with Meta?1628    Dr. Sattizahn. I did, mainly through attempting to correct1629our age data so that we even knew what types of experiences1630would be exposed to different individuals.1631    Chair Blackburn. Okay. Ms. Savage, I want to talk with you1632about the content of the research that Meta was fearful of. And1633much of this we think you know is because they were looking for1634some way to escape liability.1635    But the documents that I've reviewed, and I thank you all1636for submitting documents to us, I think have some really great1637insight into the pervasive abuse occurring on these VR1638products. And one example, Ms. Savage, that you gave us raised1639questions about how children were sidestepping age requirements1640and that Meta didn't care about that. So, talk to me about the1641research that you presented to Meta on that and how they pushed1642back.1643    Ms. Savage. The first study that I did for the VR youth1644space was on parental supervision of VR, and that research very1645clearly showed that parents were most involved during the setup1646of the headset. And then after that, really it was just the1647child using it.1648    So, firstly, we saw that parents were often making accounts1649under their own information on behalf of the child. Partially1650because they thought that that would give them supervisory1651access, but also partially because they didn't want Meta to1652have their child's data. So, of course, then the child is using1653an adult-aged account because Meta has not educated parents1654about the importance of children using appropriately aged1655accounts.1656    But also, we saw that children are the ones who are driving1657headset buying in the household. Children are the ones using1658it. So, often, children are making their own accounts because1659they want access to restricted games. They want access to adult1660content and things like that. That's part of development.1661Children seek mature experiences and parents are often not1662aware that children are doing this because, again, Meta hasn't1663educated them.1664    Chair Blackburn. Okay. And let's talk briefly about the1665Germany case. I want to get that on the record, and you have1666talked about that when we visited. And I think that that1667incident really, there's a lot of that resistance that1668coalesces in this. So, outline the Germany case for us.1669    Dr. Sattizahn. Yes. So, after when VR headsets were going1670back to being sold in Germany around, I believe, November 2022,1671we were asked as a team to research basically what the safety1672was like in Germany itself. Despite asking management and1673leadership, we were never actually explicitly told why we were1674doing research in Germany. And it was to my understanding that1675it was because they wanted a paper trail, a research study, to1676show that it was safe to do research in Germany to release1677again in Germany and have this headset sold to children.1678    When we went to a German family's house to have an1679interview with his family, a young mother, one of her children1680we were interviewing about how they use these headsets and her1681son began discussing how another member of their family, an1682underaged, I believe he was around 8 or 9 years old, his1683younger brother was sexually propositioned, was asked for nude1684photos, had all sorts of sexual harm occur to him when he was1685using the headset privately.1686    And the mother was horrified, in fact, actively even when1687Meta tried to, in real time, shut down the questioning by the1688moderator because they didn't like the data they were1689collecting, the mom kept asking for the son to talk about it.1690She was giving explicit consent in order to understand what is1691going on with my family in this case. Despite that fact,1692afterwards we were asked to delete all of our notes and1693recordings of it happening, and we did not discuss it again1694after that.1695    Chair Blackburn. Okay. Let me ask you this, and my time has1696expired, but has Meta been sued by the EU for any privacy1697violations? You can submit that so that I can get that on the1698record.1699    Chair Blackburn. Senator Klobuchar, you're recognized.1700    Senator Klobuchar [off mic]. I think Senator Blumenthal.1701    Chair Blackburn. Okay. Senator Blumenthal.1702    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you. I apologize. We have another1703hearing going on, as frequently happens in this place, and1704votes, and so forth. So, I really am sorry that I haven't been1705here, and I especially apologize if I'm retreading some of what1706you've already talked about.1707    But I think that the issue of shifting responsibility,1708offloading the burden of caring for kids as Meta has done, is1709especially important here. Because to the parents of America, I1710want to say, you are not alone here. You need help. And I say1711that as one who has received some help from my four children1712and still regard myself as learning about how to protect1713children. But what really offends me is that Meta knew that, as1714you have said, Ms. Savage, and I'm quoting, ``Parents were1715neither prepared to meaningful meaningfully use the VR parental1716controls, nor likely to use them often, and that the controls1717alone were insufficient to keep teens safe.''1718    In all your disclosures, you indicate that Meta was all too1719happy to pass the responsibility for protecting their own1720children onto parents or other companies anyone but themselves.1721And I want to invite you to expand on that point that you've1722made, Ms. Savage.1723    Ms. Savage. I appreciate it. I think the most egregious1724delineation of this is on the bottom of the box, it says, ``Not1725all children are ready for Meta VR.'' The implication there to1726me is, you know, if something goes wrong in VR, it is the1727child's fault because they're not mature enough to handle the1728experience.1729    Part of the reason that parental supervision tools are not1730sufficient is because of the lack of education about what it1731means to be ready for VR, what it means to use VR but also the1732fact that VR is social and usually entails interacting with1733strangers and what that means parents are often shocked.1734Parents whose children use VR headsets are often shocked when I1735describe to them what the experience of using VR actually is,1736and what the experience of being sexually harassed in VR1737actually is like.1738    Senator Blumenthal. And that is the reason why in our1739legislation, the Kids Online Safety Act, we impose a duty of1740care to provide parents with help, but impose a responsibility1741on Big Tech companies to provide that help, not just as a1742matter of their goodwill, but their responsibility when they1743know that there is a danger to children and to take action to1744help prevent that harm. What is your experience with age1745verification?1746    Ms. Savage. Oh, yes. I proposed a research study called Age1747Assurance, which encompasses age prediction, stated age, and1748age verification. Because the quality of Meta's age data is1749very poor, as we can see, Meta claims, if we know that there's1750a 13-year-old kick off of the platform, and yet their platform1751remains full of children under 13.1752    And so, clearly, I knew additional research was needed,1753particularly research because VR is a new kind of technology,1754which encompasses new ways of gathering data to understand1755someone's age. And that was the research that was mysteriously1756shut down.1757    Part of verification, though, is the user needs to perceive1758some value, and they need to be willing to provide the company1759with information, either their birthday or their ID. And Meta1760has something that internally is called a ``brand tax'', which1761means that users don't trust Meta with their data and so are1762less willing to provide things like ID, and that's part of the1763reason why users often don't accurately represent their age.1764    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you. And I want to just ask you,1765finally, have you heard from Meta's leadership or their1766executives about your testimony here today?1767    Ms. Savage. Not directly.1768    Dr. Sattizahn. Not at all.1769    Senator Blumenthal. When you say, ``Not directly''?1770    Ms. Savage. They have--did respond to The Washington Post.1771    Senator Blumenthal. In other words, you've read what their1772responses are in published sources, but they haven't contacted1773you directly.1774    Ms. Savage. Correct.1775    Dr. Sattizahn. Not at all, no.1776    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you. Thanks, Madam Chair,1777    Chair Blackburn. Senator Hawley.1778    Senator Hawley. Ms. Savage, you testified earlier that a1779majority, in your view, a majority of Meta's VR users are under1780the age of 13. I'm just curious what percentage, if you had to1781guess, or maybe you know the exact number, maybe you do,1782Doctor, but what proportion of Meta's VR users, the children,1783the minors, are exposed to explicit content, sexual1784propositioning, sexual abuse of some kind on the VR platform?1785    Ms. Savage. The prevalence of it is extremely high because1786it's very difficult to monitor that content in VR. It's1787difficult to monitor it on Instagram much less VR. So, I would1788estimate that any child that is in a social space in VR will1789come in contact with or directly expose something very1790inappropriate.1791    Senator Hawley. I'm sorry, did you say any child?1792    Ms. Savage. Yes.1793    Senator Hawley. So, you mean every user?1794    Ms. Savage. Yes.1795    Senator Hawley. Every user will be exposed. Every minor,1796every child will be exposed to sexually explicit content of1797some sort. Is what you're saying?1798    Ms. Savage. I see it every time I use the headset.1799    Senator Hawley. That's remarkable. That's just remarkable.1800You also said, Ms. Savage, that negligence in VR platform is1801emblematic of negligence across Meta's platforms when it comes1802to child safety. Let me just ask you about chatbots. This has1803come up before. I'm sure that you're aware of the recent1804reporting that Meta allowed its AI chatbots to engage in1805explicit content, romantic and sensual, I think, conversations1806with children.1807    Let's just take a look actually at what the internal1808document brought forward by a whistleblower said. It's right1809here in this middle portion. This is a Meta document. ``It is1810acceptable to engage a child in conversations that are romantic1811or sensual.'' Let me say that again. ``It is acceptable to1812engage a child in conversations that are romantic or sensual.1813It is acceptable to describe a child in terms that evidence1814their attractiveness.''1815    Again, this is Meta's own internal--these are their own1816internal guidelines. Does this surprise you at all?1817    [Poster is displayed.]1818    Ms. Savage. Unfortunately, no.1819    Senator Hawley. Doctor, does this surprise you?1820    Dr. Sattizahn. Not at all.1821    Senator Hawley. When Meta says, as they have said,1822following the disclosure of these guidelines, that they will1823redouble their efforts to make sure that children are safe on1824their platforms, including with chatbots, does that give you1825any comfort? Do you think that we should take them at their1826word?1827    Ms. Savage. Oh, no.1828    Dr. Sattizahn. In no way, shape, or form. No.1829    Senator Hawley. In no way, shape, or form. Let me just ask1830you one other thing. You've been with--you were with Meta. How1831long, Ms. Savage, approximately?1832    Ms. Savage. Four years.1833    Senator Hawley. Four years. Dr. Sattizahn, what about you?1834    Dr. Sattizahn. Six years. And I do want to say for context,1835that's about longer than 90 percent of employees will ever work1836at the company because the turnover is so quickly. I believe it1837would've been about 80 for you.1838    Ms. Savage. They calculate it for us on our profiles, so we1839know that that's correct.1840    Senator Hawley. Wow. Four years and 6 years, respectively.1841As you look back on it, if you knew then what you know now,1842would you've gone to work for Meta, Ms. Savage?1843    Ms. Savage. I think I knew that about the company going1844into it. I hoped to make it better.1845    Senator Hawley. Doctor?1846    Dr. Sattizahn. I would've, and I would've taken even better1847documentation.1848    [Laughter.]1849    Senator Hawley. Let me just end with this. Do you think,1850based on what you know now in your time at the company, do you1851think that Meta is a force for good in this country and in the1852world?1853    Ms. Savage. I don't see how they can be.1854    Senator Hawley. Dr. Sattizahn?1855    Dr. Sattizahn. No. It is aggressively ambivalent to people.1856    Senator Hawley. Aggressively ambivalent to people. And yet,1857this is a company all about people, their attention, their1858interests, their data, their lives. This company has lost its1859way, profoundly lost its way, and they are harming our children1860as a result. Thank you, Madam Chair.1861    Chair Blackburn. Senator Klobuchar.1862    Senator Klobuchar. Oh, thank you very much, Senator1863Blackburn, and thank you, Senator Hawley, Senator Blumenthal,1864and I will remember forever the aggressively ambivalent, which1865I think is one of the many ways we can describe what's going on1866here.1867    So, Mr. Sattizahn, Meta is the global leader in virtual1868reality and mixed reality devices, with reported 73 percent1869market share. When the dominant player, and I think this is1870key--as you may know, I do a lot of work on antitrust. And so,1871when the dominant player in virtual reality suppresses, alters,1872and deletes research into youth safety, how does that hinder1873the broader industry from implementing and improving safety1874standards for young users? Not that it would be good if anyone1875did it, but in my mind, it makes a difference. Could you1876explain your view of that?1877    Dr. Sattizahn. There's no incentive for the company to1878change at this point. There were workings internally at the1879company, there were consistent discussions about this, that we1880were too big to fail in this space. My own data that I've1881shared with you all have, has shown the sheer number of1882individuals that are focused only on Oculus platforms for VR.1883    And one of the thing that I do want to say that you would1884only understand if you work inside of these companies is that1885when you have a such a major player that is sucking up all1886engagement and commercialization of this thing, you end up1887taking a lot of the engineers and the people that build for it,1888that then have to abide by the rules, these unethical rules1889that they're forcing everyone to follow. And it creates this1890vacuum effect where then nothing can change.1891    Senator Klobuchar. So, it's harder for the other companies1892to access that. And then, as well as they create almost this1893completely already to me unfair advantage, by being so big. And1894then, they also make it harder for the little ones to do it,1895because then they wouldn't even be competing on this. In this1896very sad playing field where a lot of the goal has been to1897bring in these kids to get more advertising research. Not the1898only goal by far, but one of the goals.1899    Dr. Sattizahn. If I may. I also want to add that the advent1900of Meta's VR is so unique because the integration of billions1901of data points of content from social media has never existed.1902Meta is social first in VR, and so not only are they taking the1903entire gaming space, it's that now they're integrating1904Instagram content and Facebook content, which no other platform1905has. And it creates this system of virtual reality that it's1906not just gaming, it's everything, and no one understands the1907rules.1908    Senator Klobuchar. Yes. Mr. Sattizahn, you provided1909research results to the Subcommittee that showed that 361910percent of users reported unwanted sexual advances either every1911time or often in virtual reality. Is it true that Meta stopped1912tracking information about unwanted sexual advances rather than1913enact safeguards against sexual harassment?1914    Dr. Sattizahn. It is true. And I also want to mention that1915they also obscured findings from study to study to limit that1916data being collected as well.1917    Senator Klobuchar. Okay. And can you talk about the1918prevalence of sexual harassment on Meta's virtual reality1919platforms, and whether Meta did enough to stop it?1920    Dr. Sattizahn. No. I would've to go back and look at1921statistics. I happily do a followup for this. To my memory, to1922my recollection, it was about 10 to 20 percent of individuals1923across the board were experiencing sexual molestation, groping1924solicitation, and it was significantly higher for women.1925    This was something that I repeatedly went to management and1926leadership about, and I was repeatedly told that we were1927underfunded. We could not develop the sort of safety tools or1928even basic education so that people would know that this just1929might be something they'd see. Education itself is very1930powerful, because even if someone just knows that this is a1931possibility, you might have some sort of remediations or tools1932even insufficient in order to handle the problem.1933    Senator Klobuchar. You want to add something, then I had a1934question for you, Ms. Savage.1935    Ms. Savage. Oh, Meta is worth almost $2 trillion, are they1936not?1937    Senator Klobuchar. Yes, that's right. So, Ms. Savage,1938Meta's virtual reality platform can be used, as we discussed in1939my opening, by child predators to mingle with kids online while1940concealing their age and identity. And the consequences can of1941course be devastating.1942    In 2022, two separate kidnapping incidences were connected1943to the virtual products. Adult men convinced teenage girls in1944the unreal world to meet them in the real world where they were1945able to kidnap and move them across State lines. Luckily, both1946girls were found by police, returned home safely.1947    Can you talk more about how seemingly innocent1948relationships fostered in virtual reality can lead to harms in1949the real world?1950    Ms. Savage. That's a very good question. And my own1951research showed that while parents have rules about interacting1952with strangers for children, it takes only a few interactions1953before they consider someone a friend online. Trust is built1954very quickly. That's part of the development process.1955    Senator Klobuchar. Right, especially with kids.1956    Ms. Savage. Exactly. And so, particularly, when you don't1957know what someone looks like in real life, if they tell you1958they're your age, you'll likely believe them. So, it's very1959easy to build trust. And of course, there are playbooks that1960individuals who are groomers use for this.1961    Senator Klobuchar. Right. Why is it uniquely challenging1962for parents in law enforcement to detect harm in virtual1963reality environments?1964    Ms. Savage. Part of it is because there's no log of it, and1965the child is--they have something strapped to their face that1966you often can't see. So, parents, it may be happening in the1967living room and parents may not be able to see what's1968happening, but also because children consider, unfortunately,1969sexual solicitation and things like this to be pretty normal.1970And so, they may not tell their parents that this is happening.1971Also, part of development is that children are learning what is1972and is not. So, it may be happening and the child may think1973nothing is wrong.1974    Senator Klobuchar. Okay. So, last question here. In1975addition to the bill that my colleagues have long worked on and1976got through the U.S. Senate on kids and the standard of care,1977and things that we need to do to update our laws.1978    One other idea, of course, is to make changes to Section1979230 in every other business sector. Parents who believe a1980company contributed harm to their kids have a right to have1981their case heard in court. But social media companies argue1982that parents have no such rights because Section 230 immunizes1983them regardless of the content that they push to users, all1984while making billions in profits off of tracking and marketing1985tickets.1986    I often think if we had put in place this ability decades1987ago, a decade ago, 5 years ago, we would never be where we are1988now with fentanyl being sold and pornography. And finally,1989we're starting to do something. But all that time passed, all1990those kids' lives were damaged or lost forever.1991    And do you believe that victims--I'll ask each, I'll ask1992you first, Mr. Sattizahn--victims of harm that occur on Meta's1993platform should have the ability to sue Meta for its roles in1994these harms? And do you think Meta will change its behavior and1995take child safety online seriously without opening the1996courtroom doors to victims?1997    Dr. Sattizahn. To your first question, I believe it is1998necessary. As I mentioned before, only outside regulation and1999financial punishment is something that will actually create2000change inside the company. So, to answer your question, that2001would essentially be necessary for the company to learn or at2002least change its behavior in the future.2003    Senator Klobuchar. Ms. Savage.2004    Ms. Savage. I agree. And I would also say harm that happens2005online is harm. Full stop. And so, parents should be able to2006respond accordingly.2007    Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Thank you.2008    Chair Blackburn. Senator Blumenthal.2009    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you, Chair. I know we've been at2010this for a while. I just have a few questions to conclude. You2011know, I asked you before whether Meta had contacted you2012directly, you said not, but you have read their responses in2013The Washington Post.2014    And I'll just put it bluntly. In effect, they're calling2015you liars. They say that, ``Your testimony is based on a few2016examples stitched together to fit a predetermined and false2017narrative.'' And their spokesperson says, ``We stand by our2018research team's excellent work, and are dismayed by these2019mischaracterizations of the team's efforts.''2020    Let me just say, if Meta wants to come forward and answer2021questions, I'm sure that my colleagues and I would be glad to2022hear from them sitting at this table. And in fact, in the2023meantime, we are going to be writing them a letter. Senator2024Blackburn and I have been working on it. And once again, I2025thank her for her leadership demanding that Meta produce its2026research, and its research policies, and its practices2027concerning kids' safety. And if you are wrong, that is welcome2028to show us their evidence.2029    In the meantime, The Washington Post article is, in my2030view, a searing indictment. And I know it's long, but I hope2031folks will read to the end of it, to the very end of it where2032Meta is quoted on its use of age verification with an ID card2033or credit card. And the way it uses that tool, if it suspects2034people are lying and about their age, and to help with another2035tool to help third party VR developers understand their users'2036ages.2037    In 2023, apparently parents were surveyed and they said, in2038effect, this tool isn't working. And they were advised by Meta,2039a Meta lawyer, apparently, ``Maybe I can take a look and help2040you strategize a way to frame it so as to avoid these types of2041responses.''2042    She advised they couldn't destroy the responses they'd2043already collected, but they could reduce or end these kinds of2044responses going forward. In other words, see no evil hear no2045evil. They don't know any evil because they're not going to ask2046the questions in a way that would elicit information.2047    And the lawyer advised on another occasion, ``I would just2048phrase it in a way to ensure that participants do not volunteer2049information about users under 13.'' The article says the lawyer2050also checked with the researcher to see whether he had directly2051asked adults whether their children used Meta VR devices. The2052researcher said he had not. ``Okay. That's great,'' the lawyer2053replied.2054    You know, when Meta denies that your testimony is accurate2055and correct, and then we have these kinds of direct evidence,2056it's hard to give any credit to what they say. And so, I invite2057them to respond to our letter, to give us the research, to show2058us the policies, to in effect, reveal what they've suppressed2059and how they have discouraged asking the questions that would2060show them the truth.2061    And so, I want to thank both of you for coming forward to2062tell us the truth. And thank you, Madam Chair.2063    Chair Blackburn. Thank you, Senator Blumenthal. I wanted to2064ask you; you mentioned that bonuses were given on user2065engagement. Correct?2066    Dr. Sattizahn. Correct.2067    Chair Blackburn. Were bonuses ever given for creating2068safety protocols?2069    Dr. Sattizahn. To answer that question, I was instructed2070over years for my safety and integrity work leading to2071protocols to be tied solely to engagement. So, in my2072professional opinion, engagement is not the best measure of if2073people are safe. It's if people are safe. Yet, from management2074and leadership, we were told repeatedly that safety initiatives2075had to be tied to user engagement.2076    Chair Blackburn. There you go. And did you get the sense2077that Mr. Zuckerberg was intimately involved in decisionmaking2078around the suppression of child safety research?2079    Ms. Savage. Would it be helpful to describe what the2080company used to be like before 2021?2081    Dr. Sattizahn. I believe so. So, when I joined the company2082in 2018, we used to do things called Zuck reviews. This is when2083Mark Zuckerberg would come to us or to a team and say, ``Hey,2084I'd like you to do a presentation on Marketplace safety,2085Facebook dating,'' et cetera.2086    When I joined in 2018, I would be in those reviews. I would2087make a slide. I was asked to contribute to those reviews. And2088magically, after Frances Haugen's disclosure in 2021, those2089Zuck reviews went away. Management and leadership still told us2090that they would have reviews with him about sensitive topics,2091but it was never directly stated if he saw your work.2092    The reason that we were told from management and leadership2093was because they didn't want to have a trail of knowing that he2094was reviewing sensitive information. But because we were2095reviewed and our performance was reviewed, if higher ups had2096seen this stuff, management would look at the two of us and2097say, hey, it's going up to the higher ups. If it was the CTO,2098if it was the VP, or anybody else, they would use their name.2099And if it went up to Mark Zuckerberg, they'd say, hey, it went2100up the chain to leadership. But I don't know if you had another2101example for that.2102    Ms. Savage. After 2021, that's the only thing that changed,2103is only the absence of Zuck or Mr. Zuckerberg's name.2104    Chair Blackburn. So, in essence, what they did was change2105the culture to insulate themselves so they would not be sued by2106parents or by others. They suppressed the research. They used2107third-party vendors to put up a wall. And again, what we have2108seen them do is to put profit over children. And they have used2109children as a profit center when those children are online,2110regardless of the harms.2111    I want to thank you all. You've been excellent witnesses,2112and we are very grateful. We would invite--I joined Senator2113Blumenthal, if someone from Meta, and I'm sure they are all2114watching this and they're texting one another back and forth,2115or signaling so they don't get caught. If they want to2116challenge what they've heard today, I would encourage them to2117come forward.2118    I think that they see there is truly bipartisan anger, not2119only with Meta, but with these other social media platforms,2120and virtual reality platforms, and chatbots that are in2121intentionally knowingly harming our children. And this has got2122to stop. Enough is enough. We are intent on passing the Kids2123Online Safety Act. I think today has really laid out more of2124the reason for doing that.2125    We will continue to submit questions to you for the2126Committee that will go through Tuesday, September 16 at 5 p.m.2127We would ask that you respond in a timely manner within a week2128to those questions.2129    Chair Blackburn. We're grateful to you all. We are grateful2130to the parents, and this hearing----2131    Senator Klobuchar. I just----2132    Chair Blackburn. Yes, you go right ahead.2133    Senator Klobuchar. Thank you. I just want to thank you,2134Madam Chair, and our witnesses. And just to reiterate that the2135company can come before this Subcommittee. They can provide us2136answers, but the best way to resolve this is to get this bill2137passed. To realize there's more and more Senators that are2138interested in going even farther, and that this is a reality on2139this Committee right now, including with the Chair and Ranking2140Member of the entire Judiciary Committee, and that they need to2141start taking this seriously.2142    If not for us, and whatever power we have, the fact that we2143were able to get some bills passed over the last few years, not2144nearly as much as we want, that they have to understand that we2145are very serious about this, and that this hearing and your2146willingness to come forward, the family's willingness to come2147forward can make change.2148    It's just a question if they want to have any input in it,2149or if they just want to make anonymous or spokesperson'2150comments about it without actually willing to come forward. And2151so, we're ready to talk to them, but mostly, we want to get2152something done. We're tired of the talk.2153    Chair Blackburn. Hearing adjourned. Thank you.2154    [Whereupon, at 4:34 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]2155    [Additional material submitted for the record follows.]21562157    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]21582159                            A P P E N D I X21602161The following submissions are available at:21622163  https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-119shrg62327/pdf/CHRG-2164    119shrg2165    62327-add1.pdf21662167Submitted by Senator Klobuchar:21682169 Horizon-Worlds-Exposed, statement................................     221702171 Sattizahn, Jason, Further Declaration, statement.................    2221722173                                 [all]