S.Hrg.119-277

1[Senate Hearing 119-277]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                                                        S. Hrg. 119-27756HEARING ON THE NOMINATIONS OF DAVID FOTOUHI TO BE DEPUTY ADMINISTRATOR7OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY AND AARON SZABO TO BE ASSISTANT8ADMINISTRATOR FOR THE OFFICE OF AIR AND RADIATION OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL9                           PROTECTION AGENCY1011=======================================================================1213                                HEARING1415                               before the1617                              COMMITTEE ON1819                      ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS2021                          UNITED STATES SENATE2223                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2425                             FIRST SESSION2627                               __________2829                             MARCH 5, 20253031                               __________3233  Printed for the use of the Committee on Environment and Public Works3435                 [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]3637        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov3839                               ______4041                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE424362-682                    WASHINGTON : 20264445               COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND PUBLIC WORKS4647                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS4849                             FIRST SESSION5051             SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia, Chairman52            SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island, Ranking Member5354KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota           BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont55CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming           JEFF MERKLEY, Oregon56JOHN R. CURTIS, Utah                 EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts57LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina    MARK KELLY, Arizona58DAN SULLIVAN, Alaska                 ALEX PADILLA, California59PETE RICKETTS, Nebraska              ADAM B. SCHIFF, California60ROGER F. WICKER, Mississippi         LISA BLUNT ROCHESTER, Delaware61JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas               ANGELA D. ALSOBROOKS, Maryland62JON HUSTED, Ohio6364               Adam Tomlinson, Republican Staff Director65                  Dan Dudis, Democratic Staff Director6667                            C O N T E N T S6869                              ----------70                                                                   Page7172                             MARCH 5, 202573                           OPENING STATEMENTS7475Capito, Hon. Shelley Moore, U.S. Senator from the State of West76  Virginia.......................................................     177Whitehouse, Hon. Sheldon, U.S. Senator from the State of Rhode78  Island.........................................................     37980                               WITNESSES8182Mullin, Hon. Markwayne, U.S. Senator from the State of Oklahoma..     583Husted, Hon. Jon, U.S. Senator from the State of Ohio............     684Fotouhi, David, Nominee to be Deputy Administratorof the85  Environmental Protection Agency................................     886    Prepared statement...........................................    1187    Responses to additional questions from:88        Senator Whitehouse.......................................    1389        Senator Merkley..........................................    1890        Senator Markey...........................................    2291        Senator Schiff...........................................    2492        Senator Blunt Rochester..................................    2893Szabo, Aaron L., Nominee to be Assistant Administratorof the94  Office of Air and Radiation of the Environmental Protection95  Agency.........................................................    3096    Prepared statement...........................................    3297    Responses to additional questions from:98        Senator Capito...........................................    3499        Senator Whitehouse.......................................    34100        Senator Markey...........................................    50101        Senator Blunt Rochester..................................    52102103                          ADDITIONAL MATERIAL104105Letters of support for both nominees:106    Statement by Senator Cynthia Lummis..........................    75107        Letter to Senator Capito and Senator Whitehouse from:108            The Alliance for Responsible Atmospheric Policy......    76109            American Trucking Association (ATA)..................    77110            National Rural Electric Cooperative Association111              (NRECA)............................................    78112            American Forest & Paper Association (AF&PA)..........    79113            The Aluminum Association and 13 other groups.........    81114            Letter to Senator Capito from American Fuel &115              Petrochemical Manufacturers (AFPM).................    83116            Letter to Senator Thune from the Independent117              Petroleum Association of America (IPAA)............    84118            Letter to Senator Thune and Senator Schumer from119              American Fuel & Petrochemical Manufacturers (AFPM).    86120Letter of disapproval for the nomination of David Fotouhi from121  The Asbestos Disease Awareness Organization (ADAO).............    88122Letter to Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger of California from the123  U.S. Environmental Protection Agency...........................    93124Public Financial Disclosure Reports to Senator Capito from:125    Aaron Szbabo.................................................    97126    David Fotouhi................................................    98127128HEARING ON THE NOMINATIONS OF DAVID FOTOUHI TO BE DEPUTY ADMINISTRATOR129OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY AND AARON SZABO TO BE ASSISTANT130ADMINISTRATOR FOR THE OFFICE OF AIR AND RADIATION OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL131                           PROTECTION AGENCY132133                              ----------134135                        WEDNESDAY, MARCH 5, 2025136137                                       U.S. Senate,138                 Committee on Environment and Public Works,139                                                    Washington, DC.140    The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:03 a.m. in141room 406, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Shelley Moore142Capito (chairman of the committee) presiding.143    Present: Senators Capito, Whitehouse, Cramer, Curtis,144Ricketts, Husted, Kelly, Padilla, Schiff, Alsobrooks.145    Also present: Senator Mullin.146147        OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO,148          U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF WEST VIRGINIA149150    Senator Capito. Good morning. I am going to call this151hearing to order and thank everybody for coming this morning.152    Today we will receive testimony from David Fotouhi, the153nominee to serve as the Environmental Protection Agency's154Deputy Administrator and from Aaron Szabo, to serve as the EPA155Assistant Administrator for Air and Radiation. These are two156very important positions in the agency. I'm looking forward to157this productive conversation about how Mr. Fotouhi and Mr.158Szabo will ensure President Trump's agenda to get the agency159back to its core mission and reestablish American energy160dominance.161    Mr. Fotouhi currently is a partner at Gibson, Dunn and162Crutcher, where he has represented clients on matters relating163to environmental law. He previously served as the Acting164General Counsel and Principal Deputy General Counsel at the165EPA. He is no stranger to EPA. Mr. Fotouhi has been recognized166by multiple national law publications for his work in167environmental and energy law, and as a leader on those issues.168    Mr. Fotouhi's previous experience at the EPA provides him a169wealth of perspective on the Agency's critical role in170protecting our Nation's air, land, and water while doing so171within the boundaries of the legal authority that Congress has172established.173    The EPA Deputy Administrator is generally tasked with174overseeing the day-to-day operations of the agency. In this175role, Mr. Fotouhi will coordinate the work of the EPA's176important air, water, and chemicals offices, in addition to the177EPA's regional offices research, enforcement, and General178Counsel teams. Effectively integrating the agency's work will179be at the top of Mr. Fotouhi's list of responsibilities.180    Facilitating economic growth while protecting public health181and the environment requires the agency to establish consistent182and legally defensible regulations, fairly and clearly enforce183those rules, and communicate with the States, communities, and184entities impacted by these regulations.185    Mr. Szabo, President Trump's nominee to serve as the186Assistant Administrator for the Office of Air and Radiation, is187currently serving as a Senior Advisor to the EPA Administrator188after representing a wide variety of clients in the private189sector on energy and environmental matters. For more than 10190years, Mr. Szabo worked as a career civil servant, first for191the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, and then the Office of192Information and Regulatory Affairs, known as OIRA, and then the193Council on Environmental Quality.194    As an NRC career staff member, Mr. Szabo was repeatedly195recognized with awards for his excellent performance in the196Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation.197    In June 2016, during Mr. Szabo's tenure working for the198Obama administration's OIRA, he received the Special199Achievement Award. Mr. Szabo's nomination to lead the Office of200Air and Radiation will place him in a central role to roll back201the Biden administration's extreme attack on reliable, baseload202energy sources.203    Under the Biden EPA, American energy producers were subject204to a barrage of legally suspect regulations that were intended205to bankrupt oil, gas, and coal companies. These attacks led to206increased energy costs on American families, reduced electric207reliability, and undermined our energy security.208    In contrast to the Biden administration's agenda, President209Trump's agenda will right size our environmental regulations210within the bounds of the laws passed by this Congress and past211Congresses, while in turn increase energy production, enable212innovation, and unleash economic growth while protecting the213environment. As Administrator Zeldin stated during his214confirmation hearing, the EPA has far too often exceeded the215legal authority Congress has provided in law.216    This pattern, repeated during the Obama and then the Biden217administrations, forced American businesses to pay for costly218compliance requirements, even though the underlying regulation219was ultimately struck down by the courts. Today's nominees220understand the impact of the Obama-Biden regulatory strategy.221    Mr. Fotouhi and Mr. Szabo have represented a wide range of222energy and environmental clients in legal and regulatory223proceedings, as well as counseled clients on environmental224compliance and due diligence. While some might suggest that225representing regulated entities, particularly ones they do not226like or agree with in private practice, should bar attorneys227like Mr. Fotouhi and Mr. Szabo from serving in these roles. I228believe that view misses the extensive value of both of the229nominees' public and private experiences.230    It is important for all of the EPA's staff, especially231senior leadership, to understand how the agency's use of232statutory authority and enforcement tools affect States and233regulated entities, as well as how that regulatory action can234best achieve compliance and maximize positive environmental235outcomes.236    I am confident our witnesses' legal training, previous237government experience, and professional experience will serve238them well in the positions for which they have been nominated.239    The EPA must get back to what it does best: facilitating240cleanup of polluted sites in communities across America,241establishing scientific sound and achievable regulations, and242fulfilling the cooperative federalism model of working with243States to meet national environmental standards.244    I look forward to exploring these issues in more detail245with our witnesses.246    I now recognize Ranking Member Whitehouse for his opening247statement.248249         OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE,250          U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF RHODE ISLAND251252    Senator Whitehouse. Thank you very much, Chairman.253    Today is Day 45 of the second Trump administration. In his254first month and a half, we have seen attacks on the rule of255law, willful disregard for the Constitution, a funding freeze256that is threatening to kill jobs and drive up energy costs for257families, and to use the Project 2025's own words, ``trauma''258inflicted on dedicated career staff at various agencies.259    We on this dais have oversight responsibility for the260Environmental Protection Agency. Despite my asking, many times,261I am still trying to figure out what is happening within the262walls at 1200 Pennsylvania Avenue. I have sent reasonable263requests to EPA for information and have been met with near264total radio silence.265    On January 31, along with all the Democrats on this dais, I266wrote to Administrator Zeldin to request that he explain his267legal basis for EPA's funding freeze that continues to threaten268American jobs and jeopardize infrastructure projects from269Alaska to West Virginia to my home State of Rhode Island. Much270of this funding was passed on a bipartisan basis to make long271overdue investments in our roads, bridges, transit, ports,272drinking water, wastewater, and other systems that are the273backbone of our Nation's economy.274    On February 6th, I again wrote to Administrator Zeldin and275his counterpart at OPM calling out the administration's so-276called ``deferred resignation'' scam against hard-working civil277servants, again asking how the administration could legally278promise such a thing without congressional appropriations.279Promising money that's not yet there has a name. It is called280Deficiency.281    On February 24, I again led all of the EPW Democrats in282demanding answers about EPW's efforts to claw back $20 billion283in congressionally approved clean energy funding for projects284nationwide. Administrator Zeldin has been gaslighting the285American people, manipulating facts as a pretext to terminate286an already obligated, congressionally authorized program that287would lower household energy costs, spur economic development,288and reduce pollution.289    On February 28th, all of us EPW Democrats again wrote to290Administrator Zeldin, asking him about reports that he had made291a backroom push to the White House to rescind the EPA's292Endangerment Finding, a 2009 determination based on sound293science that greenhouse gases are harmful to human health.294    Now, last night you would never hear any recognition of295what fossil fuel emissions are doing to our atmosphere or to296our oceans. Those facts completely eluded the conversation. We297never heard any recognition last night that 90 percent of new298power coming onto the grid in America is solar and wind and299battery.300    The Energy Executive Order does not even define solar and301wind as energy, which would be news to energy recipients in302Texas and Wyoming and Iowa.303    That greenhouse gases harm public health was scientific304fact when the endangerment finding was issued in 2009. Sixteen305years later, the evidence has only gotten stronger, and the306looming economic harms more dangerous. One obvious way climate307change is harming Americans across the Country is through308spiraling insurance premiums and a looming collapse in property309insurance markets. Another is through spiking grocery prices.310    The only people who benefit from repealing the endangerment311finding are the planet's biggest polluters.312    In reply to these four letters, we received just one313response, which didn't come close to answering the questions.314My staff have now twice requested a briefing on the funding315freeze. Those requests have been met with radio silence. I316suspect that's because Administrator Zeldin knows that he has317no legal basis for the funding freezes, the clawbacks, or the318manipulation of science.319    Yet, because I and my fellow Democrats do respect the320Constitution and the rule of law, here we are today to consider321two additional nominees to the EPA. I hope they will be more322forthcoming, transparent, and honest in their answers than was323Administrator Zeldin at his confirmation hearing.324    David Fotouhi, nominated to serve as Deputy Administrator,325has held two jobs since graduating law school. First, as lawyer326for a prominent white-shoe law firm defending a raft of big327polluting interests including Chevron and Sunoco. Second, in328EPA's Office of General Counsel during the first Trump329administration, working hard to repeal environmental330regulations meant to protect human health and the environment.331    It remains difficult for me to understand how someone who332has made a career defending he very industries that destroy our333environment has any business now being entrusted to protect it.334    Then there is Aaron Szabo, who has been nominated to serve335as the Assistant Administrator for the Office of Air and336Radiation. He is credited by name as a contributor to the EPA337chapter of Project 2025, the extremist billionaire-funded338right-wing blueprint for dismantling the Federal Government339that Trump is now dutifully implementing.340    Some environmental highlights from Project 2025: weaken the341Clean Air Act by reversing the Endangerment Finding; purge the342agency and bring trauma to its employees. In case you are not343keeping score at home, Administrator Zeldin is already hard at344work on these.345    Mr. Szabo was an advisor to the America First Policy346Institute, the Trump-aligned billionaire-funded think tank347funded by Big Oil interests, and he worked as a lobbyist where348he pushed the interests of major polluters like the American349Petroleum Institute's members.350    Is this really what we want for the EPA? Is this really how351we protect clean air and clean water?352    As I said at our hearing to consider Administration Zeldin,353I will be watching closely today to see if Mr. Fotouhi and Mr.354Szabo are able to differentiate themselves in any substantive355ways from the polluter agenda.356    Forgive me, in light of their client lists and the chaos357and lawlessness that have already occurred 45 days into this358second Trump administration, if I seem skeptical.359    Thank you, Madam Chair.360    Senator Capito. Thank you. I wanted to put your little sign361up there.362    Senator Whitehouse. Thank you.363    Senator Capito. We are very pleased here to have one of our364fellow Senators to introduce one of the nominees. Thank you,365Senator Mullin, for being here, and thank you for joining us.366You are recognized. We miss you on this committee.367368              STATEMENT OF HON. MARKWAYNE MULLIN,369            U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA370371    Senator Mullin. Thank you, Chairman. It is with a heavy372heart that I no longer sit on the dais with you guys.373    It is a privilege of mine today, Chairman Capito and374Ranking Member Whitehouse, to introduce a fellow Oklahoman to375the Environment and Public Works Committee. David Fotouhi is376President Trump's nominee to be the Deputy Administrator for377the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. David was born in378Venezuela, immigrated to Oklahoma when he was 4 years old with379his parents, who are here today.380    Funny story, side note on that one, they dearly love each381other, but I guess she does not trust him driving, so she flew382and he drove from Oklahoma today. I think my wife may be doing383that 1 day.384    After David graduated from high school in Oklahoma City, he385attended Vanderbilt University, graduating with the highest386honors and achieving a law degree from Harvard. An impressive387guy, if you ask me. In Trump's first administration, David388served at EPA in several senior roles, including Principal389Deputy General Counsel, and later Acting General Counsel, where390he lead the office of nearly 250 lawyers and staff.391    David's primary focus during the time included EPA's392program under the Clean Water Act, Safe Drinking Water Act,393Clean Air Act, Superfund and Resource Conservation and Recovery394Act. In addition to working closely with leaders in multiple395agencies such as the Department of Justice, throughout his396service at EPA David prioritized stability, regulation that397duly benefited both our environment and the economy, and did so398with the highest personal standards of integrity.399    Prior to EPA, David worked as a partner with Gibson, Dunn400and Crutcher in the international law firm practicing401environmental law. There, David developed a wide breadth of402litigation regulating experiences helping clients understand403their legal obligation to reach compliance standards with State404and Federal environmental law, which led to many legal405publications, publicly recognizing him for his talented work.406    There is no doubt that David has the talent, experience,407professionalism and temperament to be able to work with a broad408group of career employees at the EPA and stakeholders of all409kinds in this new position of responsibility as the EPA's410Deputy Administrator.411    I am proud to be able to introduce a fellow Oklahoman this412morning nominated to such a position in our Federal Government.413I am confident that David will serve the EPA Deputy414Administrator with the high personal and professional standards415he is known for throughout his entire career.416    On a side note, I will say, ma'am, I am very deeply sad417that I do not sit on this committee. I would take a great honor418today to be able to sit up there with pride and see David down419here answering questions and putting the EPA back on track and420not just serving one side of our constituents base, but the421entire Country, making sure that our economy and our422environment can both thrive.423    With that, I yield back.424    Senator Capito. Thank you, and thank you for being here.425    I am now going to turn to Senator Husted to give his426introductory remarks. Thank you.427428                 STATEMENT OF HON. JON HUSTED,429              U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF OHIO430431    Senator Husted. Thank you, Chairman Capito. I appreciate432the chance to introduce Aaron Szabo this morning. It is my433honor to do so. He is President Trump's nominee to be the434Assistant Administrator for Air and Radiation at the435Environmental Protection Agency.436    Joining him today is his wife, Pamela, and his parents,437John Szabo and Teddi Fine. Welcome, I am sure you are very438proud.439    I have no doubt that Aaron's background will be impressive440to the members of this committee, and he will do a great job in441this important position. As someone who worked 25 years in442State government, I know very well what Federal regulations can443do to a State's economy. I have seen the EPA delay, provide444conflicting advice, provide poor customer service at time, and445negatively impact Ohio businesses and the Ohio economy. We know446that time is money.447    I also know that we must be important, that it is important448that our State and Federal regulators are good stewards of our449natural resources. We have seen in an industrial State like450Ohio how to strike that balance and we know how to do it right.451States are in the best position to be able to do that, because452they know what is best for their communities, they know what is453best for their environment, they know what is best for business454and the people, the people of the State that they represent.455    We know that protecting the environment and growing our456economy are not mutually exclusive, and I know that, I believe457that the colleagues, my colleagues on this committee understand458that the people of their State know what is best and can be459great collaborators, and in fact, they must.460    As we consider Aaron Szabo's nomination to serve at the EPA461today, I want to note that EPA Administrator Lee Zeldin462traveled to East Palestine, Ohio just days after he was463confirmed to lead that agency along with Vice President Vance464and Senator Moreno and I were both there as well. Administrator465Zeldin decided to make it his first trip in his new role to466meet Ohioans on the 2-year anniversary of the devastating train467derailment at East Palestine.468    I spent time on the ground with Ohioans there. I was there469for many days after that happened, saw the effects firsthand. I470can tell you that it matters that this administration remembers471us, the people in East Palestine, and is working to keep our472air clean and our economy thriving as we recover, as the people473particularly of that community, as I have witnessed it, recover474from those unthinkable hardships.475    I am also pleased to see the Trump EPA focus on working476with States and not against them in our joint efforts to477protect the environment. That is why I look forward to working478with Aaron and the EPA to advance our shared mission in Ohio479and see that the EPA work similarly with every State. That480partnership working with the States is so very, very important,481because they get it, they know what needs to be done.482    Let me share a bit more about why Aaron is here with us483today and why he belongs at the EPA. Aaron understands how to484promote a healthy environment and successful communities485firsthand. He has followed in his parents' footsteps as a486career civil servant. He began his own career as a public487servant at the Nuclear Regulatory Commission while he was in488law school.489    Aaron continued to serve in other career positions at the490Council on Environmental Quality and at the Office of491Information and Regulatory Affairs. He worked on issues related492to the important statutes, such as the Clean Air Act, the493National Environmental Policy Act, and regulations surrounding494power plants.495    That experience will serve him well as an EPA Assistant496Administrator. After more than a decade in public service,497Aaron helped businesses navigate environmental and energy498issues as a regulatory affairs attorney. He is highly qualified499to fill this role, and he is motivated by service.500    Aaron understands how to keep Americans safe and healthy501while powering the great American comeback. I believe he will502lead the EPA Office of Air and Radiation with expertise and503integrity, and believe me, that is what we all want in a person504in charge of air quality. He understands these issues well.505    The Office of Air and Radiation developed policies and506oversees the implementation of core environmental statutes like507the Clean Air Act. Aaron will leverage his extensive experience508to navigate complex issues for the America people. I have509confidence in his ability and I am glad he is here today and510willing to take on this responsibility as a continued work in511public service.512    Congratulations to you, Aaron, to your wife, Pamela, on513your nomination, and thank you for the opportunity to introduce514you today.515    Madam Chairwoman, thank you, Ranking Member, thank you for516the opportunity to share the reasons why we should support the517nomination of Aaron Szabo.518    Senator Capito. Thank you. Thank you very much.519    I will ask the witnesses to move up to the witness table,520if you would. Do not sit down, because before we move to521opening statement for our nominees, I will administer the oath522to receive their sworn testimony.523    If you would raise your right hand. Please stand, raise524your right hand and answer the following question.525    Do you swear the testimony you are about to give to this526committee is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the527truth, so help you God?528    [Witnesses respond in the affirmative.]529    Senator Capito. Thank you. Let the record show that the530witnesses have answered in the affirmative. We will now proceed531to our opening statements. Thank you both, and thank the532families for joining them as well.533    Mr. Fotouhi, you are going to be recognized first for 5534minutes for your opening statement.535536STATEMENT OF DAVID FOTOUHI, NOMINEE FOR DEPUTY ADMINISTRATOR OF537            THE U.S. ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY538539    Mr. Fotouhi. Good morning, Chairman Capito, Ranking Member540Whitehouse, and distinguished members of the committee. It is541my honor to appear before you today as President Trump's542nominee for Deputy Administrator of the Environmental543Protection Agency.544    I want to thank President Trump for the confidence he has545placed in me and Administrator Zeldin for support of my546nomination.547    If confirmed, I pledge to work every day for the American548people to advance the mission of EPA to protect human health549and the environment, and to support Administrator Zeldin as he550does the same.551    I want to thank my family, current and former colleagues,552and close friends for being here to support me, many of whom553have traveled great distances. In particular, I want to thank554my parents, who are both here today, for their sacrifices and555unabating support.556    EPA's mission is deeply personal to me. I am an immigrant557to this Country. I was born in Venezuela and came to the United558States as a child with my parents, with the hope of a better559future. As a naturalized citizen, I have a unique view of our560Nation's heritage of conservation and strong environmental561protections that are not shared by many other countries.562    The American legacy of stewardship toward our air, water,563and land was not my birthright, it was not something I was564predestined to enjoy. Thankfully, I do get to enjoy it, along565with every other American. We need to look no further than to566places like Venezuela to see how differently things can go.567    From my perspective, I see environmental protection and568conservation as woven into every fiber of this Country. They569are at the core of what makes this Nation great and prosperous.570    EPA's human health mission specifically resonates with me571in a deeply personal way. Like millions of other Americans, I572am a cancer survivor. EPA plays a critical role in protecting573the health of all Americans, including by reducing cancer risk574through programs addressing air and water quality along with575hazardous waste and chemical substances, across the agency and576directly in communities facing the greatest challenges.577    Professionally, I have devoted my life to environmental law578and environmental issues. I have practiced environmental law579for nearly 14 years, including my prior service at EPA.580    In private practice, I have represented a broad array of581clients and spent much of my career helping them understand and582achieve compliance with their environmental legal obligations583and responsibilities.584    As mentioned, I served for nearly 4 years at EPA,585culminating in my time as the agency's acting General Counsel.586It was a privilege to work alongside the career lawyers and587other professionals at EPA, where I found some of the most588knowledgeable and most dedicated public servants.589    If confirmed, I will work every day to earn their trust and590respect as I did during my prior tenure at the agency.591    That tenure also reaffirmed my belief in the importance of592the rule of law. Indeed, it is critical that EPA upholds the593rule of law by carrying out its mission based on the enumerated594authorities given to it by Congress. EPA must also provide595necessary clarity and certainty so that every American596obligated by an environmental requirement knows exactly what is597expected of them.598    If confirmed, I will work every day to earn and keep the599public's trust in EPA and its actions.600    America has made dramatic environmental progress in my601lifetime. More Americans now have access to clean drinking602water than ever before. Sulfur dioxide air emissions in 2023603were 94 percent lower than they were in 1980. NOx emissions604were 75 percent lower.605    America accomplished this while growing our population and606GDP, setting an example for the world. We have much to be proud607of, but there is more work to do.608    In 2023, our major cities experienced more days of609unhealthy air quality than in any year of President Trump's610first term. More than 1,300 contaminated sites across the611Country remain on the National Priorities List, not ready to be612fully returned to their communities for reuse.613    Drinking water supplies in some communities face challenges614from lead and emerging contaminants like certain PFAS615chemicals. Our changing climate demands work at home, like616fully implementing the AIM Act and expediting carbon617sequestration permitting, and work abroad to ensure a level618global playing field that does not disadvantage hardworking619Americans.620    EPA must work with States, tribes, and local partners, as621well as with the regulated community and NGO's, to confront622these and other issues consistently with the law and while623preserving our global economic dominance.624    I am confident EPA, under Administrator Zeldin's625leadership, can make progress through smart, transparent, and626cost-effective regulatory solutions rooted in sound science;627through compliance efforts that achieve real pollution628reduction and enforcement efforts for violators who refuse to629follow the law; and, importantly, through unleashing American630innovation and our economic growth engine to find tomorrow's631solutions for today's challenges.632    Thank you again for the opportunity to appear before you633today. I look forward to learning more about your priorities634and answering your questions.635    [The prepared statement of Mr. Fotouhi follows:]636637[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]638639    Senator Capito. Thank you, Mr. Fotouhi.640    Now we will turn to Mr. Szabo. I will now recognize you for6415 minutes for your opening statement. Thank you.642643     STATEMENT OF AARON L. SZABO, NOMINEE TO BE ASSISTANT644   ADMINISTRATOR FOR AIR AND RADIATION OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL645                       PROTECTION AGENCY646647    Mr. Szabo. Thank you, Chairman Capito, Ranking Member648Whitehouse, and distinguished members of this committee. I am649honored to be here today and deeply grateful to President Trump650for nominating me to serve as Assistant Administrator for the651Office of Air and Radiation at the Environmental Protection652Agency and help protect America's air.653    I also want to thank Administrator Zeldin for his trust,654both in my current role and this nomination.655    I would also like to thank my wife Pamela, my parents, in-656laws, and other friends and colleagues that are here supporting657me today in person and virtually. I would not be here today658without them.659    I sit before you today as the nominee for Assistant660Administrator of the Office of Air and Radiation who suffers661from a chronic lung disease. I was diagnosed with cystic662fibrosis at 6 months old. Throughout my life, I have taken663hundreds of thousands of pills, spent countless hours using664nebulizers, and been hospitalized multiple times. While it has665not always been easy, unlike many others with cystic fibrosis,666I am blessed to be alive today.667    Of my lung disease, I have always been acutely aware of air668quality. Growing up, I could feel the impact of poor air669quality in my lungs. After college, I followed in my parents'670footsteps as Federal employees and began my professional career671in government service as a career employee at the U.S. Nuclear672Regulatory Commission).673    At the NRC, I had the privilege to work with and learn from674exceptional hard-working career staff for six and a half years.675In 2014, I joined the White House and served in the Office of676Information and Regulatory Affairs. At OIRA, I had the677opportunity to work with EPA career staff and both Democratic678and Republican political officials. I saw firsthand the process679of translating policy direction into regulatory outcomes680consistent with laws and facts.681    For example, during the Obama administration I worked as682hard as I could to complete the Clean Power Plan, the 2015683Ozone National Ambient Air Quality Standards, and oil and684natural gas methane regulations. Then, during the Trump685Administration, I continued with that same dedication while686working on rescinding the Clean Power Plan, revising the oil687and natural gas methane regulations, and implementing President688Trump's Two-for-One Executive Order.689    After over 10 years of Federal service, I transitioned to690the private sector where I learned how regulated entities691comply with the Federal Government's thousands of regulations692and policies. I also saw firsthand that the people working in693these companies want to ensure the environment is properly694protected.695    I rejoined the Federal Government on inauguration day for696the first time as a political appointee. Currently, I serve as697Senior Advisor to the Administrator of the EPA.698    If I have the honor to be confirmed to be head of the699Office of Air and Radiation, I commit to you and to the700American people that all this experience will guide me in this701role. I will give my utmost every day working with the talented702career staff and responsible stakeholders to provide the best703and most durable air quality solutions for the Nation.704    Since the enactment of the Clean Air Act, the United States705has made remarkable progress in reducing air pollution. We have706seen significant decreases in carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide,707lead, ground-level ozone, particulate matter and other708hazardous air pollutants, all while our economy has continued709to grow.710    I believe all those who worked to improve air quality for711the past 50 years, whether it be within or outside the712government, deserve our appreciation for their successes.713    Congress structured the Clean Air Act around the principle714of cooperative federalism and controlling air pollution at its715source is the primary responsibility of States and local716government. EPA must always work hand-in-glove with its State717partners to ensure that air quality standards are attained and718maintained.719    The best environmental results are reached in a720collaborative way. This was the wise decision by Congress in721establishing the Clean Air Act and it remains the best approach722today.723    One subject area that was not on Congress' radar when it724enacted the Clean Air Act in 1970 was climate change. I believe725the climate is changing. EPA must always carefully analyze all726matters before it to make sure they are squarely grounded in727statutory authority, are sound policy, and are based on a728robust evidentiary record.729    Finally, if confirmed, I will work to ensure that we are730mitigating traditional air pollution. As someone with a lung731disease, I find it deeply concerning that there are around 140732million people that currently live in nonattainment areas, many733of which have been living in those nonattainment areas for734decades. We should prioritize helping these areas achieve735compliance and improve air quality.736    Chairman Capito, Ranking Member Whitehouse, and all the737members of this committee, thank you again for your time and738consideration. I look forward to answering your questions and739discussing the issues that matter to your constituents.740    [The prepared statement of Mr. Szabo follows:]741742[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]743744    Senator Capito. Thank you. Thank you both.745    I will start with the questions, but first I would make a746comment that you both have very compelling personal stories,747particularly as it regards to your own personal health. I think748that is one of the main missions of EPA, to help folks that749have been affected much like you, but also for future750generations. Thanks for being so open about those issues.751    I want to ask my first question on cooperative federalism.752We have talked a little bit, a couple of us have mentioned it753already. The environmental laws are based on the principle of754which States are co-regulatory partners with the Federal755Government.756    Rather than considering the States as partners, the757previous Administration has sort of overlooked and treated758States as subordinates. State and local environmental agencies759are dedicated to working to working together with Federal760regulators and a lot of times, certainly understand the areas,761their own personal, their own regions a lot better. State762agencies are best suited to understand the diversity in their763geographic, economic and social elements.764    I will start with you, Mr. Fotouhi. Will you commit to765engaging with States under the cooperative federalism framework766to establish workable rules and implementation strategies--this767is for both of you--to protect public health and the768environment?769    Mr. Fotouhi. Thank you, Senator. Yes, absolutely. The770environmental statutes, as you said, broadly speaking, are771drafted in a way that the Federal Government and States and772tribes and others work in partnership to achieve the results773that Congress intended when the statutes were promulgated.774    Doing so in a way that empowers States through cooperative775federalism, as you mentioned, providing the technical776assistance that States need to understand their resources best,777and also to encourage States and tribes to assume the778responsibility for Federal permitting programs will be a779priority of mine if confirmed.780    Senator Capito. Thank you. Good.781    Mr. Szabo, same question, and can you describe what you see782as the primary benefits and, I didn't know if you had had783experience with this in your prior government service.784    Mr. Szabo. Thank you, Senator. I would say that for me, it785is, as I mentioned in my opening statement as well as in my786conversations with you and other Senators on both sides of the787aisle, the importance of cooperative federalism, as David788mentioned, it is important that States have the primary role in789regulating. They know what is best for their States. It is790something I believe and it is something which the Clean Air Act791requires.792    States know how to regulate their entities the best, and it793is important to allow them to do that under the Clean Air Act.794Additionally, it is also important not to punish those States795for emissions that are not the fault of their own State.796    I think that we can work better in a cooperative manner797with the States and provide those environmental protections798faster.799    Senator Capito. Thank you. I think it is important to note800in the last administration under one of the provisions the801States were asked to do a State implementation plan when doing802that, to the EPA, of their oversight. They just scrapped all803the State plans and said, no, you are going to do the Federal804plan.805    That to me does not speak of cooperative federalism. I806think, again, we want to keep our eye on where are the core807functions, but also what functions the best.808    I want to talk a little bit about electric energy809reliability. We know that the Clean Power Plan has certainly810had a lot of experience with this, intentionally designed to811impose unattainable requirements to cause the early retirement812of our lot of coal and natural gas plants.813    During the same time, prices have skyrocketed and our814reliability has been called into question. The North American815Electric Reliability Corporation forecasts that well over half816of the U.S. will face potential electricity shortages and817blackout risks. This is a large result of reduced supply818baseload power.819    Mr. Szabo, I warned your processor, Mr. Goffman, about the820potential for his strategy to undermine the reliability of our821electric grid several times. Based on his actions, he ignored822these warnings.823    As you oversee and implement the Clean Air Act's statutory824obligations to protect public health and environment, will you825ensure that the agency takes into account electric reliability826and energy affordability on the impacts on American families?827    Mr. Szabo. Thank you, Senator, for the question. Currently,828and then also if confirmed, we are bound by what is stated in829the Clean Air Act, and that includes the consideration of costs830and impacts on the Country. With respect to any action within831Section 111 that the Clean Power Plan was, or the Clean Power832Plan 2.0, whichever version you want to call it, was833established under, we must follow the law and that includes the834consideration of impacts on electricity reliability.835    Senator Capito. Well, I would say too the prior836administration, at one point I remember seeing a chart of837where, you know, this is No. 1, two, three, four, they838reordered where the priorities should like in terms of looking839at reliability. I would discourage that.840    Mr. Fotouhi, do you have a comment on that, on the841reliability issue?842    Mr. Fotouhi. Yes, thank you, Senator. I think the agency843needs to heed the decision of the Supreme Court and the West844Virginia case in particular. That was very clear that EPA is845not a grid-wide energy regulator. It is not an entity that is846responsible for determining whether generation shifting should847occur between different sources. EPA should always, when848implementing the Clean Air Act or any other program, abide by849its statutory authority that Congress has delegated to it.850    Senator Capito. Thank you.851    Before I turn to the Ranking Member, I will have to slip852out, we have a roll call vote over in Commerce, so I will go do853that, and then I will come back. Thank you.854    Senator Whitehouse. Mr. Szabo, good morning. What effects855are carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuel combustion having856in the earth's atmosphere?857    Mr. Szabo. Thank you, Senator, for that question. I cannot858speak to generally what the specific impacts would be from859fossil fuels. Carbon dioxide in combination with other860greenhouse gases can result in heat being trapped in the861atmosphere.862    Senator Whitehouse. Can result, or are actually resulting?863    Mr. Szabo. My understanding is that there is some heat864trapping that occurs from greenhouse gases.865    Senator Whitehouse. Is it not scientifically established866that CO2 and methane are both greenhouse gases that trap heat867in the atmosphere?868    Mr. Szabo. That is my understanding.869    Senator Whitehouse. What effect does methane leakage from870fossil fuel production and transport have in the atmosphere?871    Mr. Szabo. Thank you for the question. As I mentioned872previously, I cannot call out what the specific impacts would873be from methane from fossil fuels. Methane in general is also a874greenhouse gas that can trap heat in the atmosphere.875    Senator Whitehouse. Can trap heat in the atmosphere, or876actually does trap heat in the atmosphere right now?877    Mr. Szabo. It does, I am not specific to every single878molecule of methane. I know in general methane does trap heat.879I just am not a scientist and do not know what the impact of880every single molecule of methane may be in the atmosphere.881    Senator Whitehouse. What effect are carbon dioxide882emissions from fossil fuel combustion having in our oceans?883    Mr. Szabo. As I mentioned previously with respect to just884carbon dioxide in general, it does result in acidification of885the ocean, as well as there is heat trapping in the oceans, as886you mentioned in your opening statement.887    Senator Whitehouse. How much heat trapping? How would you888measure what the oceans are taking up in terms of excess heat889from carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuel combustion?890    Mr. Szabo. As I mentioned, I can not speak to specifically891from carbon fuel combustion but my understanding is, I believe892NOAA has stated that 90 percent of the heat is trapped in the893ocean.894    Senator Whitehouse. You have no disagreement with that?895    Mr. Szabo. I am not a scientist, so I defer to the896scientists.897    Senator Whitehouse. Do you understand that the excess heat898going into the ocean is measured in zettajoules, which is an899enormous number with 21 zeroes?900    Mr. Szabo. As I mentioned, Senator, I am not a scientist.901If that is the number, I am not aware of the exact number.902    Senator Whitehouse. Have we hit the 1.5 degree climate risk903threshold, and why is that important?904    Mr. Szabo. My understanding is that we are on a trajectory905to hit that threshold, according to scientists. The stated906importance of that, I believe, is that climate impacts would907get worse at that degree temperature. However, my understanding908is that was also a policy decision that was made as part of the909U.N. discussions and the Paris Climate Accord.910    Senator Whitehouse. You used the word ``stated.'' Does that911indicate any hesitation in believing that?912    Mr. Szabo. I have not--my understanding is there is various913scientific studies on the impact of 1.5 degrees as well.914    Senator Whitehouse. What do they generally conclude?915    Mr. Szabo. I mean, it would depend on which, I mean, as I916said, I am not a scientist.917    Senator Whitehouse. I said generally. What do they918generally conclude? What is the strong consensus message about9191.5 degrees as a risk threshold?920    Mr. Szabo. That it could result in increased climate change921based on that temperature threshold.922    Senator Whitehouse. What are key climate tipping points923that you would watch in your position to try to avoid?924    Mr. Szabo. Senator, I believe that the climate is changing.925I believe that it is important for us to adapt to any change926including those that occurred with respect to climate.927    Senator Whitehouse. Not to mitigate, to prevent it. Just to928adapt to it, even if it is man-made pollution that is driving929it?930    Mr. Szabo. I am currently, and if confirmed am bound by the931laws that Congress has established and cannot----932    Senator Whitehouse. Last question. Are we now on a pathway933to climate safety? Or do we need to do more to reduce carbon934emissions in order to get on that pathway?935    Mr. Szabo. As I stated previously, I believe that we need936to be adapting to all changes, including those to the climate.937    Senator Whitehouse. Thank you.938    Senator Capito. Senator Cramer?939    Senator Cramer. As tempting as it is to give Senator940Whitehouse my time, I am going to take a little bit of it941first.942    Thank you both for being here. I join the Chairwoman in943thanking you for your personal testimoneys, and being so944transparent. It is inspirational, to say the least.945    One or both of you have referenced the United States'946contribution to the global issue. I think we flaunt it too947often, take all the blame for our own excellence, compared to948the world that is not, it is quite mediocre in comparison, in949my view.950    In fact, I also share Chairman Capito's affection for951cooperative federalism. I mean, for the life of me I do not952know why a State like North Dakota or West Virginia or any953other State of excellence would relinquish that excellence to954mediocrity at the Federal level.955    That being said, I want to explore a little bit with you956the contribution of the United States emissions to compare to957the globe's emissions. As I see the reduction, and I think on958or both of you have testified to this, the reductions that we959have been making as a country while growing our economy and960growing our manufacturing base, growing even our energy sector961at a time when there is actual electricity hogs out there, just962waiting for a place that would welcome the opportunity to963invest, why would they seek the United States if we are going964to have these, what I think are actually very non-competitive965regulatory issues?966    That said, I have been looking at a lot of the--by the way,967I am not as smart as you guys, but I am fairly nerdy and pretty968resourceful, and having been an energy regulator for a long969time. The issue of reliability is a really big deal. The issue970of availability at a time when again these economy, whether it971is AI, crypto, the energy hogs, are looking for places to land,972I think it is really, really important.973    I would like to explore our contribution and our declining974contribution in the global State of things. Maybe Mr. Szabo,975you could start with what you may know about the various models976and data and how the United States measures up.977    Mr. Szabo. Thank you, Senator Cramer. It isn't going to be978shocking to anyone, but we have significantly decreased both979our greenhouse gas and traditional air pollution emissions980tremendously, especially over the past 20 years. While other981countries such as China have significantly increased their982greenhouse gas emissions as well as their traditional air983pollution emissions over the years, and what we are seeing now984actually is that international emissions, as you kind of985mentioned about not talking about some of the other things,986traditional air pollution from China goes and impacts States987like California, due to the transport from the Pacific.988    Generally, if we shut off all greenhouse gas emissions in989this Country tomorrow, that would not have any real impact with990the increases that we have seen from other countries around the991world, specifically China.992    Senator Cramer. Mr. Fotouhi, anything to add to that?993    Mr. Fotouhi. Thank you, Senator. I would echo those994comments. I think something over the last 20 years or so, as995Mr. Szabo was saying, American greenhouse gas emissions have996decreased by something like a million tons per year, while997China's have increased by something like six to seven million998tons per year, completely swamping our hard-earned reductions999in greenhouse gas emissions.1000    I think to the extent there needs to be work to be done to1001address that issue, it needs to be done both domestically and1002globally.1003    Senator Cramer. I have been looking at some MAGICC data in1004modeling. Would it be an exaggeration to say that our trend of1005going down and the rest of the world, particularly the big1006polluters going up in terms of emissions, that our power sector1007can be like contributing less than .2 percent of the emissions1008in the future, with current trends? Does that sound plausible?1009    Mr. Szabo. Senator, I would have to go look back at the1010exact data, but happy to work with you on those numbers after1011talking to staff and make sure we are working with you on1012getting those values.1013    Senator Cramer. I would welcome that opportunity and wish1014you both well. Thank you.1015    Senator Capito. Senator Padilla?1016    Senator Padilla. Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to thank1017both of the nominees before us for their public service and1018their willingness to continue to serve. I especially appreciate1019the comments that have been made by you, Mr. Fotouhi, by Mr.1020Szabo especially and even the Chairwoman recognizing our1021collective mission to achieve clean air. Clean air is possible,1022not just environmental, but the health impacts that pollution1023contaminants have and the recognition that State and local1024governments have a primary role.1025    Did I get that language correct from your testimony, for1026both of you?1027    Mr. Szabo. Yes.1028    Mr. Fotouhi. Yes, Senator.1029    Senator Padilla. Okay, thank you. It is in that spirit,1030proudly representing the State of California that prides itself1031in policy leadership in so many areas, but including and1032especially when it comes to environmental protection and clean1033air.1034    Given the special collaborative relationship over the years1035between the State of California and the Federal Government, I1036would like, Mr. Szabo, for you to walk me through the statutory1037basis for EPA's authority to grant California a waiver of1038Federal preemption under the Clean Air Act.1039    Mr. Szabo. Thank you, Senator Padilla, for that. It was a1040pleasure talking to you earlier about various issues related to1041California.1042    The Clean Air Act requires EPA to provide a waiver to1043California assuming that certain requirements are met with1044respect to that. To my knowledge, we currently do not have any1045waivers in front of EPA.1046    Senator Padilla. That is not my question. I am well aware1047of what was submitted in the prior administration, waivers that1048were granted, requests that have been withdrawn. Just for the1049record, it is from Section 209 of the Clean Air Act, which1050allows California to exercise this waiver opportunity and adopt1051its own emission standards if those waiver requests are1052granted.1053    In reading the statutes, can you share with us, Mr. Szabo,1054under what specific statutory conditions can EPA deny a waiver1055request?1056    Mr. Szabo. Thank you, Senator. At this time, I cannot1057recall the exact provisions in Section 209 and I do not want to1058provide incorrect information to you. I am happy to get back to1059you with that information.1060    Senator Padilla. Okay. Colleagues, red flag No. 1.1061Obviously you are up for consideration for a very critical1062position. We are talking about air quality, must the1063environment's impact to health impacts that you both personally1064shared with the committee your experience.1065    We are talking about the State of California, not just the1066most populous State in the Nation, but home to the largest1067number of people by far who live in non-attainment levels. We1068know the Federal Government hasn't done as much as it can and1069should do to improve air quality in California and elsewhere.1070We know that California has taken upon itself to do more.1071    Given the jurisdictional balance and relationship between1072State and Federal Government, California has been successful1073through the waivers process to achieve more gains, yet you can1074not articulate for me the basis for denying a waiver request1075when you are going to play such a critical role is concerning.1076    Let me ask this, then. Does the Clean Air Act give EPA1077discretion to deny a waiver simply because the Administrator1078may disagree with California's policy goals?1079    Mr. Szabo. That, my understanding is no, it would not be1080just because of policy goals.1081    Senator Padilla. Their answer is not discretion, then, on1082behalf of the Administrator and the agency?1083    Mr. Szabo. From my recollection, within Section 209, there1084is nothing that states that it would be related to just a1085policy difference between California and the Federal1086Government.1087    Senator Padilla. Do you believe that California faces1088compelling and extraordinary conditions when it comes to air1089quality?1090    Mr. Szabo. When it comes to traditional air pollution, I1091believe that that can be the case.1092    Senator Padilla. Then by traditional air pollution, the EPA1093is tackling pollutants and air quality?1094    Mr. Szabo. I believe when it comes to National Ambient Air1095Quality Standards that that is right, as well as hazardous air1096pollutants. That is what I mean by it.1097    Senator Padilla. To your knowledge, has an administrator1098ever denied a waiver on the ground that California does not1099face compelling and extraordinary conditions?1100    Mr. Szabo. I believe that was part of the justification in1101the 2020 Safe Vehicle Rule Part 1.1102    Senator Padilla. Okay. Well, for the record, let me share1103with our colleagues that the answer is actually no. The EPA has1104tried to deny on other grounds, but never for the argument that1105California does not face compelling and extraordinary1106conditions.1107    Mr. Szabo, my time is running out, so I will end with this.1108Can you point to where in the Clean Air Act it gives EPA the1109authority to revoke a waiver once it is granted?1110    Mr. Szabo. I believe that would be within Section 209 of1111the Clean Air Act.1112    Senator Padilla. Actually, no. We know that there will be1113efforts to do just that. I will end. I know my time is up, with1114the recognition, very important distinction between a waiver1115request, a waiver denial, and a waiver being granted versus1116rulemaking. When there are attempts by Congress to utilize the1117CRA to undo a waiver that was granted, precedent has1118established that that is not appropriate because a waiver is a1119waiver, not a rule.1120    Thank you, Madam Chair.1121    Senator Capito. Thank you.1122    Senator Husted?1123    Senator Husted. Thank you, Chairman Capito. I appreciate1124the opportunity to talk with the nominees today.1125    Mr. Szabo, I want to bring up an issue that we talked about1126briefly, based on my experience in the East Palestine train1127derailment and subsequent fire and disaster that happened1128there, just for the sake of sharing something that can be1129hopefully helpful, is that one of the things that happened in1130that crisis moment is that while we had a team of people on the1131ground there from the EPA who were very versed in the rules and1132regulations they weren't very versed at crisis management.1133    I just shared with you in our conversation that I, this1134administration in the course of 4 years will face one of those1135moments. It is inevitable that the unexpected will occur. I1136just want to share thoughts, and either of you, actually, can1137respond to this about thoughts that you have on how we can be1138better prepared for a time of crisis.1139    Mr. Fotouhi. Senator, I am happy to respond initially. It1140is a critical function of the agency, its emergency response1141function. I had the privilege, when I worked in the agency1142during the first term of the Trump administration to work1143closely with the career civil servants who are housed in that1144emergency response office within the Office of Land and1145Emergency Management and across EPA's regional offices. They1146are often the ones who plan for natural disasters, things like1147hurricanes, making sure that industrial sites are prepared so1148that there are not environmental incidents as a result of a1149natural disaster.1150    Similarly, they play an important role in responding to1151issues like the East Palestine derailment or the fires in Los1152Angeles or the floods in western North Carolina. Administrator1153Zeldin, in his first month on the job, has made the emergency1154response function of the agency a critical priority. If1155confirmed, I would support him in that effort.1156    Senator Husted. Great. Thank you.1157    I have, my next question is also largely an Ohio-related1158question. It is because in the final, literally the final day1159of the Biden administration, they imposed a new rule at EPA1160over, it is called a nuisance rule. It was enacted on January1161the 20th, regarding rules on air, dust, grime, things like1162that.1163    It is unique to Ohio. We have our own nuisance rule1164regulations in Ohio to be adjudicated through the Ohio EPA and1165the Ohio court system. Now we have one State that was1166identified, basically picked on, the EPA and the1167administration, to put this new rule in place. The Ohio1168delegation is united behind eliminating that.1169    This is what we talk about, when we talk about the Federal1170Government imposing things on States without the cooperation of1171those States and the people who understand what makes sense in1172those States. I just would ask for your support in our efforts1173to overturn this rule and that any comments that you have about1174that or the partnership between Federal and State regulators in1175general.1176    Mr. Szabo. Senator, thank you for that question. I know in1177my time at EPA I have heard about the issues with that action.1178If confirmed and just in general right now, as I stated in my1179opening statement and in our conversations, cooperative1180federalism is key. That is working with the States, not against1181them. I look forward to working with you as well as the State1182of Ohio in resolving these kinds of concerns and issues that1183have been created.1184    Senator Husted. Thank you. I just will close with this1185thought. The people who run State government, the EPA, the1186Governors, the communities that are affected, they care more1187about their States and their communities than anybody else.1188They know what is best. Please be collaborative with the States1189of this Nation and their regulators and their enforcement1190entities to make sure that they can solve environmental issues1191and do it in a timely manner, but also in a manner that is not1192burdensome to the people who are trying to live and operate in1193those States.1194    Thank you.1195    Senator Capito. Thank you.1196    Senator Alsobrooks?1197    Senator Alsobrooks. Thank you so much, Chair Capito and1198Ranking Member Whitehouse.1199    Mr. Fotouhi, Mr. Szabo, good to see you. Congratulations on1200your nominations.1201    Last week at his cabinet meeting, the President said that1202Administrator Zeldin ``thinks he is going to be cutting 651203percent or so of the percent of the people,'' is what he said,1204from the EPA. Administrator Zeldin later clarified that he1205meant 65 percent of the agency's budget.1206    I have questions for both of you. I just want to be clear1207and get a direct answer. Do you support cutting the EPA's1208budget by 65 percent?1209    Mr. Fotouhi. Senator, thank you for the question, and I1210appreciated the time that you took to meet with me earlier in1211this process. My view on that is that what Administrator Zeldin1212has referred to publicly on that issue is that the reduction1213would pertain to a baseline reduction from the amount of1214expenditure in 2024, which included a significant amount of IRA1215funding as opposed to a reduction of the base budget, which is1216of course congressional, is for Congress to determine.1217    Senator Alsobrooks. Okay, so you agree, then, that the role1218of setting funding levels belongs to Congress, and not to the1219administration?1220    Mr. Fotouhi. Senator, Congress sets EPA's budget.1221    Senator Alsobrooks. Okay. Then if you are confirmed, will1222you enforce the law, including appropriations law, and ensure1223that that function continues to remain one that is a1224congressional function?1225    Mr. Fotouhi. Senator, thank you for the question. On this1226issue and all issues, if confirmed, I will always follow the1227law and always advise Administrator Zeldin in the same manner.1228That extends to issues related to appropriations and budget.1229    Senator Alsobrooks. Thank you.1230    Now, in Maryland we are doing really great work where1231climate is concerned. We are also working to reduce greenhouse1232gas emissions and air pollutants.1233    Right now, there are many actions related to Maryland's1234State implementation plan for the Clean Air Act that are1235pending approval at the EPA. This plan is very critical to1236Maryland. It ensures that my constituents have healthy air to1237breathe, and it also provides certainty to businesses who are1238investing in Maryland.1239    I understand that there are similar backlogs in other1240States, and it is because the office that you have been1241nominated to lead is understaffed and not overstaffed. The1242question is, in light of this concern around slashing budgets,1243how would you achieve the efficiencies that will be necessary1244to ensure we have clean air to breathe and that we meet our1245other goalposts, if we are cutting budgets and slashing work1246force?1247    Mr. Fotouhi. Senator, thank you for the question. It is a1248priority of mine, if confirmed, to ensure that across the1249agency that we are reducing backlogs for things like State1250implementation plans under the Clean Air Act, for water quality1251standards from States under the Clean Water Act, other1252submittals like permit applications and the like. Working to1253ensure with Administrator Zeldin that appropriate staffing is1254put in the right places and that we have the expertise needed1255to process those applications and State implementation plans in1256a timely manner would be an area of emphasis to me. I look1257forward to working with you and your staff on the Maryland1258issues that you raised specifically.1259    Senator Alsobrooks. Okay, thank you. Just one final1260question, and this question I would be asking of Mr. Szabo. The1261cost of homeowners insurance is on the rise. Since 2018,1262homeowners insurance non-renewals have increased by 30 percent1263in Maryland. This means that major homeowners insurance1264providers are dropping hundreds of thousands of policy holders1265in response to frequent extreme weather events caused by1266climate change.1267    I want to know whether or not you acknowledge that the root1268cause of climate change, including reducing greenhouse1269emissions, has a very serious connection to what we are seeing1270in terms of unaffordable insurance premiums, and ask what you1271intend to do about that.1272    Mr. Szabo. Thank you, Senator, for that question.1273    In my current role and if confirmed, while I believe that1274it is important that we as Americans and we as humans continue1275to adapt to all changes, including those with respect to1276climate, I would not have any regulatory authority over the1277insurance markets themselves and how those insurance companies1278may or may not react to changes in the climate. I am fully1279supportive of Americans and people adapting to any changes in1280the climate that may be occurring.1281    Senator Alsobrooks. The last part, and I know my time is1282up, would you agree that the effects of climate change are1283driving economic hardship for families?1284    Mr. Szabo. I believe that there are impacts to climate1285change.1286    Senator Capito. Senator Curtis?1287    Senator Curtis. Thank you, Chairman.1288    It is great to be with you, both of you, thank you for1289coming by my office. Some of what I want to talk about in my1290short 5 minutes we discussed. I think it is important to have1291this discussion so that everybody, particularly back in Utah,1292can hear our discussion and your thoughts on it.1293    We discussed, and I tried to make the point in this venue a1294lot of times, Utah's unique geography and natural phenomenon1295require a nuanced approach. Approximately 80 percent of our1296ozone comes from, ozone emitting from the earth surfaces or1297from outside of the region. As Utahns, that means we only1298control 20 percent of the ozone in the area.1299    Utah's air quality has improved significantly, and that is1300because our publicly elected officials, our education, our1301business leaders, all have made commitments and we have had1302great investments in new technology to improve our air.1303    I might say I am very grateful for the new administration's1304early jump into this and some of the relief that we have1305received already. Please pass along my appreciation for that.1306    Utah's Uinta Basin faces similar challenges of oil and gas1307production in the region where we provide affordable, reliable1308and clean energy are burdened by EPA standards and do not1309account for this unique geography that we have in Utah.1310Fortunately, all of our stakeholders, as I mentioned, are all1311committed, the education community, the political leaders and1312business communities are all committed to this.1313    Despite this, in the final stretch the Biden administration1314EPA reversed course, instead of granting the extension as1315previously proposed, the agency issued a final ruling1316redesignating northern Watsatch Front Uinta Basin as non-1317attainment with significant impact to it economically and1318otherwise for our area.1319    Once again, thanks for your help there.1320    I would like to just ask both of you, so folks back home1321can hear, if confirmed, can we count on this flexibility in1322working with regional administrators to follow their lead in1323dealing with these tough issues? Hopefully we can have that1324commitment from both of you?1325    Mr. Szabo, if you want to jump in.1326    Mr. Szabo. Sure. Senator, it was great talking to you1327yesterday about these issues as well. In my current role as1328well as if I am confirmed I will commit that we will work with1329the State of Utah as well as all the States on each State's1330unique issues, but specifically Utah's.1331    Senator Curtis. Okay, thank you.1332    Mr. Fotouhi. Thank you, Senator, and I also appreciated the1333time meeting with you. You have my commitment to work together1334to resolve these issues and to do so in a way that protects our1335air and also protects the economic development and growth that1336your community is looking for.1337    Senator Curtis. Thank you. I am glad that you mentioned1338that. Everybody does want to protect the air, everybody wants1339clean air. We just have some unique geographic features.1340    Also part of the Uinta Basin, we have a number of small1341suppliers. They really struggle to meet the methane1342regulations, not out of will, but just simply out of resources.1343We find that EPA sometimes has been overly restrictive in how1344they fix the problem, rather than defining what they want fixed1345and letting people get there through using different types of1346technologies.1347    Once again, I would like to ask for your working with1348regional administrators to get to the end goal and not be so1349prescriptive on how we get there.1350    Mr. Szabo. Absolutely, Senator.1351    Mr. Fotouhi. Yes, you have my commitment on that, Senator.1352Thank you.1353    Senator Curtis. Good, thank you.1354    Mr. Fotouhi, we talked in the office about this chemical1355approval problem. I would also just like to clarify, previous1356administration we had zero percent of chemicals approved within1357their statutory guideline. Many of these chemicals would1358replace currently problematic chemicals that are bad for our1359environment.1360    By not approving them, we are actually really harming our1361environment. I would like to just have you assure with my folks1362back home your commitment to work on getting these chemicals1363approved in a timely manner.1364    Mr. Fotouhi. Yes, thank you, Senator Curtis. It is a1365critical function that the agency performs to review new1366chemicals. It needs to do so in abidance with its statutory1367timelines and in consideration of the science as well.1368    As you said, those chemicals often replace older1369chemistries and the newer chemicals are often more1370environmentally friendly. You have my commitment to take that1371as an area of emphasis, so that EPA gets back on track and is1372meeting its statutory obligations in its new chemicals program.1373    Senator Curtis. Thank you.1374    With all my love and affection for you and your new boss,1375we will have a honeymoon period and then I will use this pulpit1376to be really tough on you as I was your predecessors, if we are1377not getting those approved.1378    Thank you, I yield my time.1379    Senator Capito. Senator Schiff?1380    Senator Schiff. Thank you, Madam Chair.1381    Mr. Szabo, is climate change real?1382    Mr. Szabo. Thank you, Senator. Yes, the climate is1383changing.1384    Senator Schiff. Mr. Fotouhi, the same question, is climate1385change real?1386    Mr. Fotouhi. Yes, Senator.1387    Senator Schiff. Mr. Szabo, would you agree that human1388activities contribute to climate change?1389    Mr. Szabo. Senator, I believe there are many things that1390can create the climate to change themselves.1391    Senator Schiff. That would include human activities, would1392it not?1393    Mr. Szabo. In the aggregate, there is a potential impact1394from human activities on the climate.1395    Senator Schiff. You would agree, Mr. Fotuhi, that human1396activity contributes to changes in the climate?1397    Mr. Fotouhi. Yes, Senator.1398    Senator Schiff. Some of those human activities include1399burning coal, oil, and gas, Mr. Szabo?1400    Mr. Szabo. I believe there are many activities that can1401release greenhouses gases into the atmosphere in general.1402    Senator Schiff. Well, I am asking you in particular,1403burning coal, burning oil, burning gas contributes to climate1404change, does it not?1405    Mr. Szabo. Those activities do release greenhouse gases1406into the atmosphere.1407    Senator Schiff. Mr. Fotouhi, you would agree that burning1408coal, oil, and gas contributes to climate change?1409    Mr. Fotouhi. Senator, emission of greenhouses gases into1410the atmosphere plays a role and does contribute to the changing1411climate.1412    Senator Schiff. In particular, burning coal, oil, and gas1413contributes to climate change?1414    Mr. Fotouhi. Senator, those activities, depending on how1415they are undertaken, can result in the emission of greenhouse1416gases, yes, including methane.1417    Senator Schiff. In trying to address climate change, would1418you agree that trying to reduce our reliance on coal, oil, and1419gas as they are contributors to climate change makes sense, Mr.1420Szabo?1421    Mr. Szabo. I believe that it is important that we adapt to1422any changes, including those with respect to the climate. I1423believe that the American people can adapt to those changes.1424    Senator Schiff. That is a bit of a murky answer. If coal,1425oil, and gas are contributing to climate change, wouldn't you1426agree that one strategy to address climate change would be to1427reduce our reliance on coal, oil, and gas?1428    Mr. Szabo. I believe, once again, that we can adapt to the1429potential impacts to climate change without causing potential1430issues to our reliance on our natural resources within this1431Country.1432    Senator Schiff. I am not sure I understand that answer. If1433coal, oil, and gas are contributing to climate change, would it1434make sense as part of our strategy to address climate change to1435reduce our reliance on coal, oil, and gas? Yes or no.1436    Mr. Szabo. Senator, I think it is important to take the,1437with respect to the potential impacts from those sources of1438emissions with respect to the global nature of any with climate1439change, and consider it that with respect to any policy1440positions moving forward.1441    Senator Schiff. I am still having trouble understanding1442your answer.1443    Should we reduce the consumption, the burning of coal, oil,1444and gas as part of a strategy to mitigate climate change? Yes1445or no.1446    Mr. Szabo. Senator, I believe that it is important that we1447follow the law with respect to any actions we take. If Congress1448wishes for us to take a different action on climate change, I1449would leave that into the decision of those in Congress about1450what policies the United States would take with respect to1451that.1452    Senator Schiff. As a potential top official in the EPA, you1453would agree, would you not, that if coal, oil, and gas1454contribute to climate change and climate change is resulting in1455horrendous fires like we had in Los Angeles and stronger1456hurricanes and more flooding, that one part of a sensible1457approach to dealing with climate change would be to reduce our1458reliance on fossil fuels that are contributing to that crisis?1459Wouldn't you agree with that?1460    Mr. Szabo. Senator, I would say that the wildfires in1461California were very tragic. There were many reasons as to what1462the results of those, why those wildfires occurred in and of1463themselves.1464    Senator Schiff. Mr. Szabo, do you think the oil industry1465has a disproportionate impact on our ability, willingness, to1466speak plainly about climate change? You seem to be having1467difficulty. Does the oil industry exert too great an influence1468on our policy dealing with climate change such that you can not1469answer that question?1470    Mr. Szabo. No. I am curious if you are insinuating that I1471am somehow under the influence of the oil and natural gas1472industry. I have been consulting with career executives----1473    Senator Schiff. I think this whole Congress is under the1474influence of the oil, coal, and gas industry. That makes it so1475difficult to answer a simple question about if these are1476contributors to climate change. Wouldn't a sensible policy be1477to reduce our reliance on them? There is some explanation for1478why that question is difficult to answer, and it is not1479science.1480    I yield back.1481    Senator Capito. Senator Ricketts?1482    Senator Ricketts. Great. Thank you, Chairman. Appreciate1483it. Thank you, Ranking Member, for calling this hearing today.1484Thank you to our witnesses for being willing, or our nominees1485for being willing to serve in the Federal Government. I1486appreciate it.1487    I do want to hit upon some of the things that have come up1488in this topic before. First of all, the cooperative federalism,1489States being responsible--nobody cares more about our1490environment than the States. That is, as a former Governor,1491that is what we want to do, we want to protect our environment,1492we want clean air, clean water. We do want to work1493cooperatively with the EPA to be able to have it. When the EPA1494just throws out State implementation plans, it really is a1495disregard for the law and our system of federalism. I think1496that is one aspect that I want to hit upon.1497    Also I wanted to hit upon this idea of consensus. There was1498a consensus early on in the pandemic, and I was just introduce1499Dr. Jay Bhattacharya at the Health Committee about, we should1500lock down schools. Well, it turns out that, because this was1501just wrong, right? Science is about arguing, it is about1502research, it is about everything, like you may have an idea,1503you have a theory, you test it, you have research, and there is1504going to be research not always going to agree.1505    Consensus is meant to be challenged, right? That is what1506the point of science is. We want to make sure we are thinking1507about those things. For example, when you are, the Senator from1508California was just talking about oil and gas. Well, why do not1509we sequester carbon dioxide, if you are worried about that? We1510can burn coal and sequester the carbon, the technologies could1511be out there, we do not have to reduce it. We can just1512sequester the carbon dioxide, if that is the problem you are1513concerned about.1514    There are other solutions out there. I do not think we have1515to run to a one-size big government solution about how to fix1516this, and that has been the problem for the last1517administration. They tried to mandate certain solutions, like1518EVs, that do not work in places like Nebraska. Let's let1519American innovation solve these problems.1520    One of the innovations that we can solve happens to be1521biofuels. I know the Chairman knows I love talking, being on1522this committee, talking about biofuels.1523    [Laughter.]1524    Senator Ricketts. The good news is biofuels are safe, can1525save consumers money at the pump, they cleanup our environment,1526all the things the Senator from California wants to do, and it1527is good for our farmers and ranchers.1528    What I want to do is just work on making sure we can do1529that. E15 is one of the things we can do to do that. The EPA1530has been issuing waivers to be able to do that.1531    This is a very simple question for the both of you. Waiver1532is an annual emergency thing. To make it permanent, Mr.1533Fotouhi, do not we actually need to pass a bill on E15?1534Legislation has to be passed by Congress to be able to make E151535all year around permanent, is that right?1536    Mr. Fotouhi. Senator, thank you for the question. That is1537my view. When I served in the first term of the Trump1538administration at EPA, we attempted a regulatory proceeding to1539allow for the expanded use of E15, and ultimately a court1540determined that the agency lacked the adequate statutory1541authority for that action.1542    My view is that congressional, if that is the congressional1543intent, then congressional action is required for EPA to be1544able to take that on without going through the RVP, Reid Vapor1545Pressure, waiver or emergency waiver process.1546    Senator Ricketts. Mr. Szabo, same question.1547    Mr. Szabo. I would just echo what David said, and yes, we1548would need a legislative solution.1549    Senator Ricketts. Great. Perfect. Second, additionally,1550timely review of renewable volume obligations are mandated by1551the renewable fuels standard, that is a law, should be a1552biofuels priority for the EPA here. RVOs are powerful signals1553to producers of the fuel markets. They need to be published1554reliably in thoughtful increments and should be reflective of1555market realities.1556    I understand you cannot prejudge the outcome of an agency1557rulemaking, but I want to get you on the record here. Will you1558commit, again, because the RVOs that were supposed to be1559published November 2024 are not supposed to be done now until1560December 2025, a year late, Mr. Fotouhi and Mr. Szabo, do you1561each commit to implementing statutory directives in the1562renewable fuels standard to publish a timely rulemaking for the1563renewable volume obligations?1564    Mr. Fotouhi. Senator, thank you for the question. It is1565important that we hit our statutory timing obligations for1566setting RVOs. My recollection is that in the Biden1567administration when EPA set the RVO for 2023 half the year had1568already passed. That is not the type of clarity and certainty1569to all market participants that are needed from this program.1570    My view is that the statutory timelines are very important.1571    Mr. Szabo. Senator, I agree with what David said, and1572commit to make sure that we get RVOs out in time to provide1573that certainty for industry.1574    Senator Ricketts. Great. Follow the law is exactly the1575right answer from both of you. Thank you very much. I look1576forward to your speedy confirmations.1577    With that, Chairman, I turn it back over to you.1578    Senator Capito. Thank you. We may have some others coming.1579We did commit to have a second round.1580    I have one question, then I will go to the Ranking Member.1581Then Senator Padilla, do you have a question for a second1582round? Yes.1583    Mr. Fotouhi, you have served as an attorney who has advised1584and litigated on behalf of both private clients and the EPA for1585almost 15 years. How would that experience guide your approach1586to ensuring the EPA rules are consistent with statute and1587durable for the long term? I think this is part of the problem.1588I have been on this panel for 10 years. The swings in1589administrations and regulations and viewpoints and other, even1590reflected really on the questioning that has been coming from1591the panelists, from the Senators, as well, I think is a1592difficult part of the system. I do not know how people adjust1593from a business standpoint, environmental, municipality,1594whoever, even a State.1595    How does your past experience, would it be consistent with1596not just the statute, but more durable, so we do not have these1597swings that we have seen recently?1598    Mr. Fotouhi. Thank you for the question, Senator. Rule of1599law is my touchstone. It is extremely important to me as a1600professional, as an environmental lawyer, as it was the case1601when I served at EPA, in my role there advising the1602administrator on options and legal issues.1603    The critical touchstone has to be, in every occasion,1604ensuring that we are following the congressional authorization1605and statutory language that has been drafted by Congress. The1606Supreme Court has been very clear on this point, repeatedly. In1607the Biden administration alone, the Biden EPA lost every1608Supreme Court case that it had in front of a court over the1609last 4 years.1610    We need to restore trust in EPA's actions, and part of that1611is to ensure that those actions are done consistently with the1612law, and that we are not over-reading our statutory authority1613and exceeding the boundaries that this Congress has placed on1614the agency.1615    With regard to your point about switching and lack of1616predictability or certainty, I think the Waters of the U.S.1617Rule is a prime example of that, where the court has now spoken1618in the Sackett decision in a very prescriptive manner about1619what is and is not jurisdictional for regulatory purposes under1620the Clean Water Act. It is incumbent now on the agency to1621clarify that for the American public, so that they can1622understand when they need a permit from the Corps of Engineers1623or from EPA or their State and when they do not, without hiring1624a legion of consultants and attorneys to tell them what the law1625means.1626    Senator Capito. Senator Whitehouse?1627    Senator Whitehouse. Thanks very much.1628    Mr. Szabo, let's go back to your work for Project 2025. You1629were a contributor to that document and were thanked by the1630author of the chapter on EPA, correct?1631    Mr. Szabo. Yes, that is correct, Senator.1632    Senator Whitehouse. How did you contribute? What precise1633advice did you give to the document's authors?1634    Mr. Szabo. Thank you, Senator, for that question. I1635provided just general advice and thoughts with respect to1636policies that, within the Clean Air Act section specifically.1637    Senator Whitehouse. Do you have, or do they have any record1638of the advice that you gave?1639    Mr. Szabo. I am not aware of any records they may have. I1640was a volunteer, and I do not have any records myself.1641    Senator Whitehouse. You have no notes, you have no memos,1642nothing was in writing on all of this?1643    Mr. Szabo. I have no records, Senator.1644    Senator Whitehouse. Is that because you had records and you1645have gotten rid of them, or were there never any records?1646    Mr. Szabo. Senator, I have no records.1647    Senator Whitehouse. That does not answer the question.1648    Is the reason you have no records because you got rid of1649your records of your engagement with Project 2025?1650    Mr. Szabo. Senator, as a private organization, I am not1651sure what their recordkeeping policies were or are. I do not1652have any records.1653    Senator Whitehouse. Did you submit anything in writing to1654them at any point? Did you ever have records? You not them,1655you.1656    Mr. Szabo. Senator, I provided advice to Project 2025.1657    Senator Whitehouse. How? By email? By phone? Personal1658conversations? Memos?1659    Mr. Szabo. Senator, I provided them advice in a number of1660ways.1661    Senator Whitehouse. Including ways that were in writing?1662    Mr. Szabo. Senator, that is likely.1663    Senator Whitehouse. Likely? Isn't that something you would1664actually know, since it was your advice and you would have1665written it down? How is that likely? Isn't that yes or no?1666    Mr. Szabo. Senator, I would have to go back and, as I said,1667I have no records. I would have to go think more about whether1668there were----1669    Senator Whitehouse. Well, I will ask you to think more and1670also to make this a records preservation request. We will1671followup as appropriate.1672    The EPA chapter of Project 2025 has dedicated five pages to1673the Office of Air and Radiation, which you intend to lead. Do1674you stand by the policy recommendations in that subsection1675related to NAAQS, climate change, HFCs, mobile and stationary1676source permitting, Clean Air Act sections 111 and 112,1677radiation and EPA personnel?1678    Mr. Szabo. Senator, thank you for the question. My1679understanding is these are aspirational ideas that were put out1680by a non-profit which are very similar to what other non-1681profits have done, including the Center for American Progress,1682for decades, for potential candidates. I was not involved in1683any sort of final review or determination as to what went into1684that chapter or any of the other chapters within Project 2025.1685    Senator Whitehouse. Were you compensated for that work?1686    Mr. Szabo. No.1687    Senator Whitehouse. What is your intention, well, let me1688just go back a step. What we have seen is everybody from1689President Trump down saying, we had nothing to do with Project16902025, and that is not our blueprint. Then as we watch things1691roll out in real life, we see that it is the Project 20251692blueprint, over and over and over again.1693    My question to you, is it your intent going into this job1694to implement the recommendations of Project 2025 in the office1695that you intend to lead?1696    Mr. Szabo. Senator, if confirmed, I believe in an open door1697policy with respect to ideas from all potential stakeholders,1698whether they be conservative or democratic. I am open to any1699groups' ideas. I believe that is the best way to be a regulator1700is to have an open, collaborative framework with anyone who1701would like to engage with the Federal Government.1702    Senator Whitehouse. Yes. Nice in theory, except that your1703career working for America First, which is a fossil fuel funded1704organization, doing the work for American Petroleum Institute1705members, who are by definition fossil fuel corporations,1706facilitating Project 2025, which was run by Heritage, a fossil1707fuel funded front group, everything in your past shows you1708absolutely aligned with the industry that is the heart of1709climate pollution. It makes me wonder how it is possible for1710you to take an honest look at climate change and the risks that1711it presents to us from that background.1712    My time is expired.1713    Senator Capito. You can respond.1714    Mr. Szabo. Thank you, Senator. I would also mention I spent1715over 10 and a half years as a Federal career civil servant,1716including over two of those, I think two of those, in the Obama1717White House, implementing many of those policies. I believe1718that based on my extensive career of civil service that that1719would be done.1720    Senator Whitehouse. Time will tell, won't it?1721    Senator Capito. Senator Kelly?1722    Senator Kelly. [Remarks off microphone.] As we discussed,1723and as I discussed with Administrator Zeldin during his1724confirmation hearing, we are facing serious challenges when it1725comes to ozone non-attainment under the Clean Air Act. All the1726data shows that the overwhelming source of our ozone pollution1727does not come from sources within Maricopa County. Yet, any new1728development in the region needs to identify offsets to get1729their permit.1730    Of course, the goal of the Clean Air Act, and a goal that I1731share, is to find a pathway to improve air quality without1732stifling economic development, like Arizona's clean energy1733manufacturing industry.1734    Do you agree that the goal of the Clean Air Act is to1735improve air quality?1736    Mr. Szabo. Senator, it was a pleasure talking to you1737earlier, and yes, the goal of the Clean Air Act and my goal1738currently and if confirmed is to improve air quality.1739    Senator Kelly. Of course, as you know, ozone pollution is a1740challenge to address. I know you know this, but for my1741colleagues here, can you just explain how ozone pollution forms1742and why regions like Phoenix are susceptible to ozone1743formation?1744    Mr. Szabo. Yes, thank you, Senator, for the question.1745Nitrous oxides and other forms of emissions interact with the1746atmosphere, and therefore, create ground level ozone, which can1747happen in smog, create smog. With respect to the geographic1748nature of your States, that can increase that potential ground1749level ozone, especially with potential emissions from outside.1750    Senator Kelly. Yes, a combination, we have nitrous oxide1751and we have volatile organic compounds reacting with sunlight,1752it creates ozone.1753    The problem we have is a lot of this does not come from the1754Phoenix area. In fact, somewhere between 80 and 85 percent of1755the emissions come from outside of the region, yet when a new1756permit has to be issued, EPA requires emissions reductions that1757generate offsets or credits that can only come from within the1758region, even though the ozone is coming from outside the1759region, or the organic compounds or the nitrous oxide comes1760from outside.1761    First, if confirmed, will you commit to making yourself and1762your staff available to work with my staff, other Members of1763the congressional delegation, and our Arizona stakeholders to1764help us work through non-attainment related challenges?1765    Mr. Szabo. Yes.1766    Senator Kelly. Second, without prejudging outcomes, will1767you commit to ensuring that the Region 9 office and EPA1768headquarters dedicate resources to quickly review any pending1769new source review permits in the region, ideally before we move1770into serious non-attainment?1771    Mr. Szabo. Senator, I would be happy, if confirmed, and in1772my current role, to work with Arizona on those issues.1773    Senator Kelly. Thank you. Similarly, without prejudging1774outcomes, will you commit to ensuring that coordination between1775Maricopa County, Region 9 and EPA headquarters continues to1776make progress on the two local rules proposed by Maricopa1777County? We spoke about these, Rule 204 and 205.1778    Mr. Szabo. Senator, as I mentioned earlier, I think it is1779very important to follow the Clean Air Act with respect to1780cooperative federalism, and can commit that if confirmed and in1781my current role, will work with Arizona on these issues.1782    Senator Kelly. Will you commit to having EPA Region 9 and1783EPA work with our local officials to ensure our attainment1784plans can account for pollution from other countries and ensure1785there is a more streamlined exceptional event process for1786wildfire smoke?1787    Mr. Szabo. Senator, yes, I can confirm that.1788    Senator Kelly. Thank you. I have 40 more seconds; I want to1789talk a little bit about staffing issues and cuts. Mr. Szabo, I1790understand you have not been a part of a staffing conversation1791in your current role. We spoke about that. If you are1792confirmed, do you believe you could significantly reduce the1793number of staff in the Office of Air and Radiation and still1794keep the commitments you just made to me?1795    Mr. Szabo. Senator, yes, I believe that we can meet our1796obligations with the budget provided.1797    Senator Kelly. My understanding is you have been working at1798EPA for the past 6 weeks, is that correct?1799    Mr. Szabo. Since January 20th, yes.1800    Senator Kelly. So far, has your impression been that the1801Air office is overstaffed or understaffed?1802    Mr. Szabo. Senator, I believe that both the political and1803the career civil servants have been doing a fantastic job1804implementing their obligations under the Clean Air Act.1805    Senator Kelly. All right. Thank you. Madam Chair, my1806apologies for going over by 10 seconds.1807    Senator Capito. Oh, no problem.1808    Senator Padilla?1809    Senator Padilla. Thank you, Madam Chair. I am happy I was1810able to make it back for the second round of questions.1811    I would like to pick up where I left off with questions for1812Mr. Szabo. Before I left, I was trying to highlight the1813difference and distinctions between the rulemaking process and1814the waiver process.1815    Maybe let me ask you, if you have a minute here, to1816articulate for the record your understanding of the difference1817between the two procedurally, the waiver process under Section1818209 versus the rulemaking process under the Administrative1819Procedures Act.1820    Mr. Szabo. Senator, thank you for that question. My1821understanding is that they both go through a comment period1822themselves, and for instance, the California waiver granting is1823similar to a SIP approval process.1824    Senator Padilla. Is the process identical, pretty much1825identical? Or how are they different?1826    Mr. Szabo. They are both rules, and the process is with1827respect to what the requirements are under the Clean Air Act.1828    Senator Padilla. They are not both rules. One is a1829rulemaking process; one is a waiver process. If you are not1830familiar with the important distinctions, let me move on.1831    Does granting a waiver implement a new EPA policy? Or is it1832simply granting, in my case the State of California, the1833ability for it to enforce its own standards?1834    Mr. Szabo. Similar to granting a State a State of1835implementation plan that would just be providing that State1836that authority.1837    Senator Padilla. That is my understanding as well.1838    When the EPA does grant a waiver, when does it go into1839effect?1840    Mr. Szabo. My understanding is it goes into effect when it1841is signed.1842    Senator Padilla. Automatically, right? Immediately. As a1843followup, you may or may not know the answer to this question,1844what does the congressional Review Act say about the time1845length for Congress to act on a disapproval resolution?1846    Mr. Szabo. I believe it is within 60 legislative days from1847the date that it is either the later of the publication within1848the Federal Register notice or when it has been submitted to1849Congress and GAO.1850    Senator Padilla. Right. Unless or until that happens, the1851waiver is in effect.1852    Is the granting of a waiver adjudicatory?1853    Mr. Szabo. It is a rule.1854    Senator Padilla. Is it adjudicatory?1855    Mr. Szabo. It is a rule under the congressional Review Act.1856    Senator Padilla. All right, adjudicatory, the action is1857covered under the congressional Review Act.1858    Mr. Szabo. With respect to the waivers, they are a rule1859under the congressional Review Act.1860    Senator Padilla. They are waivers; they are not rules. That1861has been established. For the record, that is why for 50 years,1862including under the first Trump administration, the EPA has1863treated waivers, including the attempted revocation of a1864waiver, as an adjudication and not a rule. That is fact.1865    I just want to end by spending a minute emphasizing, Madam1866Chair, why I have been so insistent and precise with my line of1867questioning. As I mentioned earlier, California has a1868disproportionate number of people who live in non-attainment1869areas, significantly.1870    On the one hand, I am encouraged by what I heard from the1871nominees and from you, Madam Chair, and several members of this1872committee, of the State and local governments having the1873primary role in improving air quality. For multiple reasons,1874from an environmental protection standpoint and from a health1875standpoint, that is why EPA can and should help, collaborate,1876it should, when it may not be willing to consider this, it1877certainly should not hold up States and locals from going above1878and beyond if that is what they choose, if that is what their1879constituents need and deserve, so that we can have less1880Californians and less Americans in the future having to suffer1881from cancer or chronic lung disease and other impacts of the1882high levels of emissions, pollution and air contamination that1883so many communities throughout California and throughout the1884Country currently suffer from.1885    Thank you, Madam Chair.1886    Senator Capito. Thank you both very much.1887    As we conclude here, I would like to ask unanimous consent1888to enter into the record letters of support for both nominees.1889    [The referenced information follows:]18901891[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]18921893    Senator Capito. I did not give you the three standard1894questions that I should have done, and I apologize for that. I1895am going to ask you now.1896    Do you agree, if confirmed, to appear before this committee1897or designated members of this committee and other appropriate1898committees of this Congress to provide information subject to1899appropriate and necessary security protections with respect to1900your responsibilities? Yes or no.1901    Mr. Fotouhi. Yes, Senator.1902    Mr. Szabo. Yes, Senator.1903    Senator Capito. Do you agree to ensure that testimony,1904briefings, documents, and electronic and other forms of1905communication of information are provided to this committee,1906its staff, and other appropriate committees in a timely manner?1907    Mr. Fotouhi. Yes.1908    Mr. Szabo. Yes, Senator.1909    Senator Capito. Thank you.1910    Finally, do you know of any matters which you may or ma not1911have disclosed that may place you in conflict of interest if1912you are confirmed?1913    Mr. Fotouhi. No, Senator.1914    Mr. Szabo. No, Senator.1915    Senator Capito. Perfect. Okay.1916    Now we have no further questions. I would like to thank the1917nominees, and all my colleagues for their participation.1918Senators who wish to submit written questions, and I believe1919there are some unanswered questions that we will need you to1920followup on, or further research I think you were going to do.1921    For the record, you have until 5 p.m. this Friday, March19227th, to do so. The nominee responses to those questions are due1923back to the committee no later than 5 p.m. on Monday, March the192410th, and will be submitted to the record.1925    With that, this hearing is adjourned. Thank you all very1926much.1927    [Whereupon, at 11:46 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]19281929[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]19301931                              [all]