S.Hrg.119-305

1[Senate Hearing 119-305]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                                                       S. Hrg. 119-30556                          PENDING LEGISLATION7=======================================================================89                                HEARING1011                               BEFORE THE1213                            SUBCOMMITTEE ON14                   PUBLIC LANDS, FORESTS, AND MINING1516                                 OF THE1718                              COMMITTEE ON19                      ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES20                          UNITED STATES SENATE2122                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2324                             SECOND SESSION2526                                   on2728S. 462                                      S. 2787                             S. 369529S. 1349                                     S. 2860                             H.R. 20430S. 1464                                     S. 2968                             H.R. 67731S. 1497                                     S. 3004                             H.R. 95232S. 1981                                     S. 3082                             H.R. 182933S. 2417                                     S. 3493                             H.R. 387234S. 2554                                     S. 3526                             H.R. 393735S. 2754                                     S. 35273637                               __________3839                           FEBRUARY 12, 20264041                               __________4243[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]4445                       Printed for the use of the46               Committee on Energy and Natural Resources4748        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov49                              __________5051                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE5262-927                    WASHINGTON : 202653=======================================================================5455               COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES5657                        MIKE LEE, Utah, Chairman58JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming               MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico59JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho                RON WYDEN, Oregon60STEVE DAINES, Montana                MARIA CANTWELL, Washington61TOM COTTON, Arkansas                 MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii62DAVID McCORMICK, Pennsylvania        ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine63JAMES C. JUSTICE, West Virginia      CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada64BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana              JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado65CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi        ALEX PADILLA, California66LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska               RUBEN GALLEGO, Arizona67JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota68                                 ------6970           Subcommittee on Public Lands, Forests, and Mining7172                        John Barrasso, Chairman7374JAMES E. RISCH                       CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO75STEVE DAINES                         RON WYDEN76TOM COTTON                           MAZIE K. HIRONO77JAMES C. JUSTICE                     ANGUS S. KING, JR.78CINDY HYDE-SMITH                     JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER79LISA MURKOWSKI                       ALEX PADILLA8081                  Wendy Baig, Majority Staff Director82    Chris Prandoni, Majority Deputy Staff Director and Chief Counsel83           David Gardner, Majority Professional Staff Member84                 Jasmine Hunt, Minority Staff Director85                 Sam E. Fowler, Minority Chief Counsel86        Maya Hermann, Minority Natural Resources Policy Director8788                            C O N T E N T S8990                              ----------9192                           OPENING STATEMENTS9394                                                                   Page95Barrasso, Hon. John, Subcommittee Chairman and a U.S. Senator96  from97  Wyoming........................................................     198Cortez Masto, Hon. Catherine, Subcommittee Ranking Member and a99  U.S. Senator from Nevada.......................................     2100Daines, Hon. Steve, a U.S. Senator from Montana..................     3101Heinrich, Hon. Martin, a U.S. Senator from New Mexico............    16102103                               WITNESSES104105Checketts, Ty, President, Association of National Grasslands.....    18106Raby, Jon, Nevada State Director, Bureau of Land Management, U.S.107  Department of the Interior.....................................    24108French, Christopher, Associate Chief, U.S. Forest Service, U.S.109  Department of Agriculture......................................    40110Regan, Julie, Executive Director, Tahoe Regional Planning Agency.    60111112          ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED113114Alaska Rainforest Defenders:115    Statement for the Record.....................................   607116Archuleta, Floyd:117    Letter for the Record........................................   151118Baker, Robert D. et al.:119    Article entitled ``A New Frontier: Managing the Forests in120      Alaska, 1970-1995'' published by Intaglio, Inc., 1995......   336121Barnes, Beret:122    Letter for the Record........................................   268123Barrasso, Hon. John:124    Opening Statement............................................     1125Bernstein, Mary-Claire:126    Letter for the Record........................................   269127BlueRibbon Coalition:128    Letter for the Record........................................     5129Bogart, Steven:130    Letter for the Record........................................   270131Buck, Julia:132    Letter for the Record........................................   271133Butler, Paul:134    Letter for the Record........................................   272135California Wilderness Coalition:136    Statement for the Record.....................................   192137Carbon County, Utah:138    Letter for the Record........................................   123139Carbon Water Conservancy District:140    Letter for the Record........................................   125141Carr, Kaitlyn M.:142    Letter for the Record........................................   273143Center for Biological Diversity:144    Letter for the Record........................................   263145Checketts, Ty:146    Opening Statement............................................    18147    Written Testimony............................................    20148Chicagof Conservation Council:149    Letter for the Record........................................   274150Conservation Lands Foundation:151    Statement for the Record.....................................   176152Cortez Masto, Hon. Catherine:153    Opening Statement............................................     2154Crandall, Karen:155    Letter for the Record........................................   276156Daghero, Mowgli:157    Letter for the Record........................................   277158Daines, Hon. Steve:159    Opening Statement............................................     3160    Poster depicting grazing allotments in the Middle Fork Judith161      Wilderness Study Area......................................   111162Daniello, Paul:163    Letter for the Record........................................   279164Davidson, Kirk:165    Letter for the Record........................................   280166de Cavi, Sabina:167    Letter for the Record........................................   281168DellaSalla, Dominick A.:169    Statement for the Record.....................................   266170    Editorial entitled ``My Turn: Why I Oppose Privatization of171      the Tongass Rainforest'' published in the Juneau Empire on172      October 29, 2024...........................................   604173Donovan, Brittany:174    Letter for the Record........................................   319175Down, Richard:176    Letter for the Record........................................   282177Eastern Sandoval Citizens Association and Las Placitas178  Association:179    Statement for the Record dated May 13, 2019..................    82180    Letter for the Record dated February 25, 2026................   173181Echo-Hawk, Walter R.:182    Article entitled ``A Context for Setting Modern Congressional183      Indian Policy in Southeast Alaska''........................   401184Flammer, Steve:185    Letter for the Record........................................   283186Fox, Sage:187    Letter for the Record........................................   318188Franzen, George:189    Letter for the Record........................................   106190French, Christopher:191    Opening Statement............................................    40192    Written Testimony............................................    42193    Responses to Questions for the Record........................   118194French, Jesse:195    Letter for the Record........................................   284196Gorsuch, Lee:197    Letter addressed to Amy Miller of Alaska Public Radio, dated198      December 7, 1993...........................................   610199Great Falls Bicycle Club:200    Letter for the Record........................................     8201Harold, Stephanie:202    Letter for the Record........................................   285203Heinrich, Hon. Martin:204    Opening Statement............................................    16205    Support packet for the Buffalo Tract Protection Act..........    79206    Support packet for the Cerro de la Olla Wilderness207      Establishment Act..........................................   139208Holt, Jr., Stacy:209    Letter for the Record........................................   286210Incline Village General Improvement District:211    Letter for the Record........................................   160212Institute of Social and Economic Research, University of Alaska213  Anchorage:214    Report entitled ``A Study of Five Southeast Alaska215      Communities'' published in February 1994...................   447216Judith Basin (MT) County Commissioners:217    Letter for the Record........................................     9218Kautzer, Schyan:219    Letter for the Record........................................   289220Keep Tahoe Blue:221    Letter for the Record........................................   179222Kemp, Molly:223    Letter for the Record with attached summary and review by224      John Wisenbaugh of the Institute of Social and Economic225      Research report ``A Study of Five Southeast Alaska226      Communities''..............................................   291227Kilby, Mitchell E.:228    Letter for the Record........................................   300229Klingel, Jon:230    Letter for the Record........................................   155231Knight, Rebecca:232    Commentary entitled ``What So-Called `Landless' Supporters233      and Media Don't Tell You''.................................   598234    Additional commentary on S. 2554.............................   602235(The) Las Placitas Association:236    Letter for the Record........................................    81237Lee, Hon. Mike:238    Statement for the Record.....................................   120239    Map entitled ``Land Conveyance Near Price, Utah, May 8,240      2025''.....................................................   121241    Letters of support for S. 3004...............................   122242    Maps related to S. 3004 (Figures 1-10).......................   126243    Minutes from August 13, 2025 Price City Council meeting,244      including proposed alternative to the Upper Price River245      Watershed Environmental Impact Statement...................   136246Lujan Grisham, Hon. Michelle:247    Letter for the Record........................................   103248Mackrow, Paula:249    Letter for the Record........................................   303250Mapes, Craig:251    Letter for the Record........................................   304252Mapes, Lynda V.:253    Seattle Times article entitled ``Target on Tongass: The254      Wildest National Forest May Soon Lose Its Protections''255      published on January 3, 2026...............................   305256Meade, Parker:257    Letter for the Record........................................   314258Menchego, Timothy:259    Letter for the Record........................................    91260Montana Farm Bureau Federation:261    Letter for the Record........................................    12262Montana Outfitters and Guides Association:263    Letter for the Record........................................    13264Montana Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife:265    Letter for the Record........................................    10266Montana Stockgrowers Association:267    Letter for the Record........................................    14268National Parks Conservation Association:269    Statement for the Record.....................................   190270National Stone, Sand, and Gravel Association:271    Letter for the Record........................................   162272(The) Nature Conservancy:273    Letter for the Record........................................    71274Olson, Rebecca:275    Letter for the Record........................................   315276Outdoor Alliance:277    Statement for the Record.....................................   180278Outer Continental Shelf Governors Coalition:279    Letter for the Record........................................   157280Pentz, Wyatt:281    Letter for the Record........................................   316282Placitas Chamber of Commerce:283    Letter of for the Record.....................................   100284Poirier, Jeanne:285    Letter for the Record........................................   317286Powell County (MT) Board of Commissioners:287    Letter for the Record........................................    15288Price City Municipal Corporation:289    Letter for the Record........................................   122290Price River Water Users Association:291    Letter for the Record........................................   124292Prouty, Carolyn:293    Letter for the Record........................................   288294Pueblo of Santa Ana:295    Letter for the Record........................................    90296Questa, NM (Village of):297    Letter for the Record........................................   147298Raby, Jon:299    Opening Statement............................................    24300    Written Testimony............................................    26301    Questions for the Record.....................................   114302Red River, NM (Town of):303    Letter for the Record........................................   148304Regan, Julie:305    Opening Statement............................................    60306    Written Testimony with supplemental material.................    63307Representatives of the Southeast Alaska Landless Native308  Communities:309    Statement for the Record dated February 26, 2026.............   440310    Statement for the record dated December 2, 2020..............   570311Rio Grande Del Norte Coalition:312    Letter for the Record........................................   152313Romero, Eliu E.:314    Letter for the Record........................................   150315Sagebrush Habitat Conservation Fund:316    Letter for the Record........................................   164317San Antonio de Las Huertas Land Grant:318    Letter for the Record........................................    94319Sandoval County (NM) Board of Commissioners:320    Resolution No. 8-6-15.7......................................    95321    Letter for the Record........................................    97322Sandoval, Michael T.:323    Letter for the Record........................................    93324Sealaska Corporation:325    Statement for the Record.....................................   332326Shoup, Jack:327    Letter for the Record........................................   321328Specialty Equipment Market Association and Off-Road Business329  Association:330    Letter for the Record........................................   187331Sportsmen for the Rubies:332    Letter for the Record........................................   169333Stewart, Nathanial:334    Letter for the Record........................................   322335Storey, Nate:336    Letter for the Record........................................   323337Street, Allan:338    Letter for the Record........................................   324339Suh, Ian:340    Letter for the Record........................................   325341Surfrider Foundation:342    Letter for the Record........................................   209343Sykes, Allison:344    Letter for the Record........................................   326345Taos County (NM) Board of Commissioners:346    Resolution No. 2018-21.......................................   143347Taos Pueblo Warchief:348    Letter for the Record........................................   142349Taos (NM) Town Council:350    Resolution 18-28.............................................   145351Tenakee Springs, AK (City of):352    Letter for the Record........................................   301353Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership:354    Letter for the Record........................................   171355Torres, Jack:356    Letter for the Record........................................   105357Torres, Marty:358    Letter for the Record........................................   149359Trout Unlimited:360    Statement for the Record on S. 3526..........................   212361    Statement for the Record on S. 3527..........................   214362U.S. Department of the Interior:363    Statement for the Record.....................................   206364Uy, Junice:365    Letter for the Record........................................   327366Washoe County (NV) Board of Commissioners:367    Statement for the Record.....................................   166368Watts, John:369    Letter for the Record........................................   329370Western Watersheds Project:371    Letter for the Record........................................   168372(The) Wilderness Society:373    Letter for the Record........................................    73374Wilderness Watch:375    Statement for the Record.....................................   215376    Policy paper entitled ``Keeping the Wild in Wilderness:377      Minimizing Non-Conforming Uses in the National Wilderness378      Preservation System'' published in June 2005...............   224379    Appendix I--Policies and Guidelines for Fish and Wildlife380      Management in National Forest and Bureau of Land Management381      Wilderness.................................................   244382    Copy of House Report 101-405 from February 21, 1990..........   256383    Factsheet entitled ``Science Doesn't Support Livestock for384      Fire Prevention''..........................................   262385Wilson, Karen and Jeff:386    Letter for the Record........................................   330387Wynn, Carter:388    Letter for the Record........................................   331389390----------391The text for each of the bills addressed in this hearing can be found392on the Committee's website at: https://www.energy.senate.gov/hearings/3932026/2/public-lands-forests-and-mining-subcommittee-to-receive-394testimony-on-pending-legislation395396                          PENDING LEGISLATION397398                              ----------399400                      THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 12, 2026401402                               U.S. Senate,403 Subcommittee on Public Lands, Forests, and Mining,404                 Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,405                                                    Washington, DC.406    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:00 a.m. in407Room SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. John408Barrasso, Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding.409410           OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN BARRASSO,411                   U.S. SENATOR FROM WYOMING412413    Senator Barrasso. I call this hearing to order. Good414morning and welcome, all of you, to the hearing today. I415appreciate all of you making the trip to be with us. We have a416number of bills on today's agenda, priorities across the West.417This morning's hearing will look at many pieces of legislation418that impact our federal lands.419    Families and communities in Wyoming and throughout the West420depend on federal lands for energy and mineral development, for421grazing, for forest management, and for recreation. Included in422the agenda is a bill of my own that is important to those who423graze on federal lands. I would like to take a moment to424highlight the importance of this legislation, S. 2787, the425Grasslands Grazing Act. Livestock grazing on federal lands has426a strong tradition in Wyoming and across the West. Federal427grazing is a necessary tool for wildfire prevention and for428promoting rangeland health. It is widely used by both the U.S.429Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management. The U.S.430Forest Service manages both national forests and national431grasslands. Livestock grazing is done on both national forest432land and grasslands. Obtaining a federal permit for grazing on433national forest land is common practice. However, there is a434lack of federal certainty and clarity for obtaining the same435permits for grasslands.436    In Wyoming, cattle graze on the Thunder Basin National437Grassland, located in northeastern Wyoming in the Powder River438Basin between the Bighorn Mountains and Black Hills. It439encompasses a little over a half a million acres. That's a lot440of land. My bill helps bring regulatory clarity for grazing441permits from the U.S. Forest Service. Ranchers across the West442depend on access to grazing on our national grasslands. They443deserve to have certainty that their grazing permits will be444approved in a timely manner. The Grasslands Grazing Act will445give Wyoming's ranching families the stability that they need446to keep their operations running strong.447    I would like to welcome all four of our witnesses here this448morning, especially Ty Checketts, who is always wonderful to449have here. He is one of the wonderful Wyoming ranchers who have450been back to DC to testify, speaking on behalf of the important451work that they do each and every day on their operations. I452look forward to hearing your testimony, and from all of you.453But first, I would like to turn to Senator Cortez Masto for her454opening remarks.455456       OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO,457                    U.S. SENATOR FROM NEVADA458459    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you, Chairman Barrasso. I also460want to thank Chairman Lee and Ranking Member Heinrich for this461legislative hearing today. Today is the second legislative462hearing held by the Subcommittee, and I look forward to working463with my colleagues on planning several more this year. We have464a full agenda. As you have heard, there are 23 bills. Several465of today's bills were previously processed through the466Committee last Congress, and I look forward to working with my467colleagues to advance them further.468    I also want to welcome all the panelists today. It's great469to see everybody, from Jon Raby to Christopher French. Mr.470Checketts, welcome, again, and also to the wonderful Julie471Regan. I appreciate that Julie has come all the way over from472Tahoe. She is Executive Director of the Tahoe Regional Planning473Agency. She will be providing testimony specifically in support474of S. 3695, which is the Santini-Burton Modernization Act.475Thank you so much.476    And I, too, want to talk about some of the bills that I477have on the agenda today. I so appreciate that there are478several of my bills. One of them is S. 1349, which is the Ruby479Mountains Protection Act. This bill, which has already been480favorably approved by this Committee in each of the previous481three Congresses--let me say that again, three Congresses--482would prohibit oil and gas development within the Ruby483Mountains area of the Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest, which484is located in Elko and White Pine Counties in Nevada. The bill485was created after the Forest Service received a request by an486out-of-state member of the public to develop 54,000 acres of487land within the Ruby Mountains. In 2019, the Forest Service488determined the area was not appropriate for leasing due to the489low potential for oil and gas resources and due to the490extensive involvement of the community in opposition to leasing491efforts. This bill codifies the determination that was made by492the Forest Service under the first Trump administration,493ensuring this great public space is preserved for its494recreational opportunities, outdoor economy, rare wildlife and495plant life, and the local culture that these mountains support.496    The other bill is S. 1981, the Strategic Grazing to Reduce497Risk of Wildfire Act. This bill would direct the Interior498Department and the Forest Service to work with grazing permit499holders to create a strategy to utilize livestock grazing on500public lands to mitigate risk posed by wildfires. In states501where most of the land is managed by the Federal Government,502like my home State of Nevada, ranchers and cattlemen rely on503public lands for grazing purposes. Now, more than ever, due to504climate change and historic drought conditions, these lands and505the populated areas near them are threatened by wildfires that506grow in size and intensity almost yearly.507    And then, I would also like to talk about S. 3695, which is508the Santini-Burton Modernization Act. This bill is bipartisan,509bicameral, and bi-state. It has wide local support from the510Washoe Tribe of Nevada and California, local government, and511the business community from both sides of Lake Tahoe--512California and Nevada. It has the full support from our Tahoe513delegation in the Senate, co-sponsored by my colleagues,514Senators Rosen, Padilla, and Schiff, and my co-lead in the515House, Congressman Kevin Kiley from California. This bill516modernizes the original Santini-Burton Act of 1980 that517utilized revenues from targeted land disposal in Clark County518in Southern Nevada to preserve Lake Tahoe from growing threats519of environmental degradation and from rapid development through520land acquisition and land management on both the Nevada and521California sides of the lake. Changes were made to the law in5221998 that limited the use of funds granted by the act, by the523land sales. However, preserving the pristine quality of Lake524Tahoe requires our everlasting vigilance and ability to adapt525evolving practices. Modernizing the Santini-Burton Act would526allow Tahoe partners with additional tools to manage public527lands and address visitation impacts. The goal here, and I am528hoping working with our colleagues, is that we can continue the529original intent of the Santini-Burton Act.530    I just want to mention two other bills on today's agenda531that I am also appreciative of, and they are very important to532my home state, and they are sponsored by my colleague, Senator533Rosen. That is S. 462, the Truckee Meadows Public Lands534Management Act and S. 3493, the Carson City Public Land535Correction Act. Both of these bills, like the Southern Nevada536Lands bill, received a hearing in December, were favorably537reported by the Committee with bipartisan support last538Congress, and are community driven. They prioritize locally539identified needs, including specific land disposals to540facilitate local economic development and residential housing541needs, conveyances to facilitate efficient municipal management542or support for local tribal communities, and efforts to543preserve certain public lands for conservation and outdoor544recreation.545    I look forward to the hearing today. Thank you, Mr.546Chairman.547    Senator Barrasso. Thanks so much, Senator Cortez Masto.548    Senator Daines.549550            OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. STEVE DAINES,551                   U.S. SENATOR FROM MONTANA552553    Senator Daines. Chairman Barrasso, Ranking Member Cortez554Masto, thank you.555    Included in today's agenda is one of my bills, the Montana556Sportsmen Conservation Act. Our family roots in Montana go back557five generations. My wife and I spend as much time outdoors as558we can throughout wilderness areas in Montana, as well as our559national forests. Montanans are clear about the importance of560their public lands, and count me in as one who believes561strongly in that. Local input and the best available science562guide land management plan revisions, but unfortunately,563congressional inaction has left many areas in Montana in limbo.564The original intent of wilderness study areas was for land565management agencies to study and then make recommendations to566Congress as to whether an area is suitable and should be made567wilderness or should be released to general management and not568suitable for wilderness. There is so much misinformation--and569frankly, lying--going on on this issue, but I want to set the570record very, very straight. Congress, then, must act on these571recommendations. Montanans are tired of going through the572process of studying, providing input on these areas, and then573not seeing any action taken or resolution. The consequence of574this inaction is unacceptable, and I am determined to fix it.575    Following a multi-year, collaborative process with strong576public comment, spanning multiple administrations, the three577areas in my bill, covering just over 100,000 acres, have been578deemed unsuitable for permanent wilderness. Let me say that579again--multiple collaborations, over multiple administrations--580have been deemed unsuitable for wilderness designation. These581are the Hoodoo Mountain, Wales Creek, and the Middle Fork582Judith Wilderness Study Areas. The bill is supported by both583the Powell and Judith Basin County Commissions, as well as584multiple outdoor recreation, timber, and ag groups. I ask585unanimous consent to add the eight letters of support I have586received into the record.587    Senator Barrasso. Without objection.588    [The letters referred to follow:]589    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]590591    Senator Daines. I would also like to note that if this bill592would be enacted, the lands included in it, as well as the593Forest System as a whole, will continue to enjoy statutory594protection from NEPA, the Endangered Species Act, the Clean595Water Act, the Clean Air Act, CERCLA, FLPMA, and multiple other596conservation and land management statutes and policies. I hope597that sets the record straight, because there is a lot of598misinformation about this issue. The Forest Service, with599public input, also develops forest management plans and travel600analysis reports. The Montana Sportsmen Conservation Act does601not strip protections, but instead, improves the ability to602restore wildlife habitats, enhance sportsmen opportunities,603mitigate wildfire risk, and increase multiple-use opportunities604for Montanans. Montanans have waited too long for Congress to605act on these three WSAs. It's time to listen to the science,606listen to those on the ground, respect the collaborative607process with massive amounts of public input, and return these608areas to general management with multiple conservation609protections remaining in place, as I mentioned earlier.610    I want to thank our witnesses for their attendance at611today's hearing. I look forward to your testimony.612    Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Daines.613    Senator Heinrich.614615          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARTIN HEINRICH,616                  U.S. SENATOR FROM NEW MEXICO617618    Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Chairman, and I want to thank619both you and Ranking Member Cortez Masto for convening this620Subcommittee hearing today. This hearing will add to the621significant number of conservation bills ready for markup, and622I look forward to working both with you and Chairman Lee to get623them marked up, passed, and frankly, signed into law, most624importantly.625    I would like to highlight two of the bills that I have on626the agenda that are widely supported in New Mexico. The first627bill would implement a mineral withdrawal for four small628parcels in the Placitas area, just north of Albuquerque. The629threat of a gravel mine in the area and the particulate630pollution that comes with it brought the community together to631seek permanent protection for these parcels. The largest area,632commonly known as the Buffalo Tract, is valued for hiking and633outdoor recreation, but also serves as an important wildlife634corridor between the Sandia Mountains to the south and the635Sangre de Cristo Mountains to the north. These parcels are636adjacent to a neighborhood and a community. There are literally637several gravel mines only a few miles from the Buffalo Tract638that are not controversial in this community because they are639in an appropriate location. Further, the lands in this640withdrawal proposal are culturally and ecologically significant641to two Pueblos, two Native American tribes in New Mexico, who642support this effort. For these reasons, it is an inappropriate643location for gravel mining. This has been, literally, a decade-644long effort, and I appreciate the support that the community as645a whole has provided for this bill in past Congresses, from the646local municipality, to the county, to the local tribes, and the647neighborhood association. It goes on and on because this is not648a controversial bill in my state.649    My second bill would establish the Cerro de la Olla650Wilderness within the Rio Grande del Norte National Monument,651and this parcel encompasses Cerro de la Olla, which is a652towering shield volcano over the Taos Plateau where the people653of Taos have hunted, gathered herbs, and collected firewood for654literally generations. The high elevation of Cerro de la Olla655offers solitude and unparallelled views, while the surrounding656landscape of the monument offers recreational opportunities,657including whitewater rafting, fishing, hiking, and camping.658Designating this wilderness will ensure that all the above659values are preserved so that future generations can experience660them.661    In addition, this bill would make some minor adjustments to662the boundaries of the Rio Grande del Norte National Monument to663include recent Land and Water Conservation Fund acquisitions664adjacent to the monument. The acquisitions will allow new665public access to the monument, and increase opportunities for666both recreation and traditional uses, but most importantly, we667are further protecting these acquisitions from commercial668development in an area that is renowned in New Mexico for its669viewshed. LWCF acquisitions such as these are great examples of670a community coming together to build economic development671opportunities, to unlock access for pristine hunting672opportunities, hiking, recreation opportunities, and provide an673opportunity for protecting fragile and valuable landscapes.674This bill is a major priority for the Taos community, including675both the county, the Pueblo of Taos, the city, and I am proud676to be able to offer this bill for consideration today.677    Both of these bills have had literally years of support and678been processed by this Committee in past Congresses with679bipartisan support. Understanding that the Chairman of the680overall Committee and I may differ in opinion about this type681of conservation legislation, I hope that we will be able to682have these bills considered and advanced on a markup short-list683soon. And once again, I want to thank you, Chairman Barrasso,684and the Ranking Member for having this hearing today.685    Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Heinrich.686    We are going to turn to the panel now, and it's an honor to687introduce Mr. Ty Checketts this morning. Welcome to the688Committee. He is President of the Association of National689Grasslands. He is a Wyoming native from Newcastle, Wyoming. His690wonderful wife, Becky, is here. She has joined us as well.691Thank you, Becky, for being here this morning. Good to have692both of you here. Ty ranches on his family operation. They run693a thousand head of Black Angus on about 65,000 acres of both694public and private land. He is a member of the Wyoming Stock695Growers Association. He also holds a seat on the board of the696Public Lands Council, and is a member of the National697Cattlemen's Beef Association. Ty, I am very grateful that you698are here today. I want to thank you for representing the699ranchers across the United States.700    I also want to take a moment to thank the other witnesses701for joining us this morning, especially the Nevada State702Director of the Bureau of Land Management, Mr. Jon Raby, and703Associate Chief of the United States Forest Service within the704U.S. Department of Agriculture, Mr. Chris French, who is a705friend and regular witness to the Committee. Thank you both for706coming here again. I would also like to welcome Ms. Julie707Regan, who is the Executive Director of the Tahoe Regional708Planning Agency, and I look forward to hearing everyone's709testimony this morning.710    Mr. Checketts.711712              OPENING STATEMENT OF TY CHECKETTS,713         PRESIDENT, ASSOCIATION OF NATIONAL GRASSLANDS714715    Mr. Checketts. Good morning, Chairman Barrasso, Ranking716Member Cortez Masto, and other members of the Committee. I am717grateful for the opportunity to be here to testify on Senate718bill 2787, the Grasslands Grazing Act of 2025.719    For background, my name is Ty Checketts. I am President of720the Association of National Grasslands, and also serve as a721board member on the Public Lands Council, a member of the722Wyoming Stock Growers, and also NCBA, like the Senator said.723Most importantly though, I am a husband and a father. Our724operation is on the Thunder Basin National Grassland. My family725and I own and operate the historic Fiddleback Ranch. We run on72665,000 acres. We run a thousand cows. Without our permits, it727would be impossible for us to ranch on this scale.728    ANG represents 30 national grasslands, grazing729associations, and districts. There are 1,275 members that730utilize one million AUMs of permitted grazing on four million731acres on the national grasslands across the West. We work732directly with our Forest Service friends to manage and improve733these lands for long-term sustainability. Grazing on federal734lands is diverse, but the laws governing it shouldn't create735winners and losers. National grassland permittees have fewer736rights than our friends on the BLM and National Forest lands.737This inequity stems from FLPMA's final language in 1976. It738originally included the national grassland permittees, but was739later removed in committee, leaving them without due process740protections under 43 U.S.C. 1752. As a result, the U.S. Forest741Service created two classes of permits. Under 36 CFR 222.3,742Forest Service permittees have more rights. National grassland743permittees have fewer rights.744    It requires a simple change in language to replace the745words ``lands within national forests'' with ``National Forest746System lands.'' What this means for us as producers is, it747gives us 10-year permits, priority for renewal, the preference748system, written notice and opportunity to correct these issues749before suspension or cancellation, and two-year notice before750cancellation except in emergency. These are basic new process751protections that BLM or Forest Service permittees currently752enjoy. This bill simply puts national grasslands on equal753standing. Long-term permits equals long-term stewardship, and754allows us, as ranchers, to develop water, maintain fences, soil755and forage improvements, and gives us financial stability. A75610-year permit gives our lenders the confidence so we can757borrow the money we need to operate. Producers can plan and758invest and stay on the land.759    The average age of a rancher is nearly 60 years old. Over760the next 20 years, 70 percent of ranch land will change hands.761Young producers need predictability and sustainability to stay762in the business. Since 2017, the U.S. has lost 17 percent of763cattle ranches--more than 150,000 operations. The national herd764is at a 75-year low. Meanwhile, beef demand is up over nine765percent from the past decade. We can't afford to lose more766ranchers, and ranchers can't afford to lose more AUMs. The767USDA's own plan calls for no net loss of AUMs. Sixty percent of768the western beef herd grazes on federal lands. Fifty percent of769the nation's breeding ewes do as well. Department of Interior770estimates $1.5 billion in direct economic impact and $8.5771billion annually in ecosystem services. National grasslands are772some of the highest quality of forage available. When you can773plan, you can manage better and the land benefits.774    Grasslands cover 25 percent of the Earth's surface and they775store 34 percent of the global carbon. Grazing supports native776grasses, which are so important to our ecosystem. It reduces777invasive species, such as cheatgrass, lowers wildfire risk that778destroys communities and costs millions, and supports779biodiversity in our wildlife. The changes this legislation780addresses only extend to U.S.C. 1752 due process rights, not781all of FLPMA. The Conservation Practice program stays intact.782Prior exemptions stay intact. Grazing associations keep their783current structure.784    Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, members of the Subcommittee,785Senate bill 2787 is a simple fix with enormous impact. It786creates a uniform, equitable, and predictable framework for787ranchers who rely on the national grasslands. It helps ensure788the long-term viability of rural communities, rangelands,789America's food supply, and ultimately, our national security.790    Thank you for your time. I am happy to answer any791questions.792    [The prepared statement of Mr. Checketts follows:]793    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]794795    Senator Barrasso. Thanks so much for being here.796    Mr. Raby.797798OPENING STATEMENT OF JON RABY, NEVADA STATE DIRECTOR, BUREAU OF799        LAND MANAGEMENT, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR800801    Mr. Raby. Chairman Barrasso, Ranking Member Cortez Masto,802and members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity803to testify on the bills on the hearing agenda related to the804Bureau of Land Management.805    My name is Jon Raby, and I am the State Director for the806Bureau of Land Management in Nevada, an agency I have had the807pleasure to work for for over 30 years. The BLM manages808approximately 245 million surface acres located primarily in 12809western states and approximately 700 million acres of810subsurface mineral estate. The Federal Land Policy and811Management Act, or FLPMA, sets forth the BLM's multiple-use812mission, directing that public lands generally be managed for a813broad range of uses, such as energy development, livestock814grazing, timber production, hunting and fishing, and815recreation. FLPMA also requires BLM to manage public land816resources on a sustained-yield basis for the benefit of current817and future generations. Under the Trump administration, the BLM818is managing the nation's public lands as national assets819capable of growing our economy, helping balance the budget, and820generating revenue for American taxpayers. These assets benefit821all Americans. The BLM is working to fulfill the President's822vision while protecting our beautiful lands and ensuring that823America's public lands serve the American people.824    Many of the bills on today's agenda further the Trump825administration's goals and priorities, particularly those826related to mineral development, fire management, recreation and827access, and supporting local communities. The administration is828committed to unleashing American energy as part of the broader829agenda of strengthening the economy and lowering the cost of830living, and the BLM is working to secure a reliable and831resilient domestic supply of minerals.832    BLM supports H.R. 3872, as it would expand the federal833lands available for hardrock mineral development. This aligns834with President Trump's direction to take immediate action to835facilitate domestic mineral production to the maximum practical836extent.837    Wildfires threaten lives and livelihoods and cost our838nation hundreds of billions of dollars annually. The current839administration is focused on streamlining organizational840structures and regulations, including those needed to address841today's wildfire crisis. The BLM welcomes the Subcommittee's842interest in hazardous fuels reduction and supports S. 1981 and843H.R. 204.844    Secretary Burgum recently reaffirmed the Department's845commitment to expanding public access to the land and waters it846manages by issuing Secretary's Order 3447, expanding hunting847and fishing access, removing unnecessary barriers, and ensuring848consistency across the Department of Interior lands and waters,849which among other things, directs agencies to expand access and850opportunities where compatible with law, safety, and851conservation needs.852    Under Secretary Burgum's leadership, the BLM is taking853concrete steps to implement and expand access to individuals854with disabilities. The BLM supports S. 2968's objective of855preserving accessibility and expanding outdoor recreation856opportunities for Americans with disabilities and recognizes857the importance of ensuring access to public lands in a manner858that is safe, predictable, and consistent with applicable law.859We welcome the opportunity to work with the sponsor and the860Subcommittee on the bill.861    S. 3527 furthers the administration's recreation, timber862production, and energy dominance goals while providing greater863flexibility to manage and balance multiple uses, and the BLM864supports the bill.865    Several bills on the agenda propose management designations866that would restrict motorized vehicle use, decrease public867access, prohibit mineral development, and limit the ability of868BLM to adequately manage and protect the lands in response to869changing conditions, including the growing risk of wildfire and870changing public needs. The BLM does not support the special871designations, mineral withdrawals, and other restrictions872imposed in S. 462, S. 1464, and S. 1497.873    The BLM recognizes the challenges presented by irregular874land ownership patters and believes that land conveyances are875an important tool to ensure management strategies are effective876and in the public interest. As such, the BLM supports the land877conveyances proposed in S. 2554, S. 3493, and H.R. 952.878    Finally, the BLM has no objection to H.R. 3937, and looks879forward to working with the Subcommittee and the sponsor to880ensure the review directed by the bill includes all relevant881agencies and mineral materials.882    Thank you for the opportunity to testify on these important883bills. I look forward to your questions.884    [The prepared statement of Mr. Raby follows:]885    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]886887    Senator Barrasso. Thanks so very much.888    Mr. French.889890OPENING STATEMENT OF CHRISTOPHER FRENCH, ASSOCIATE CHIEF, U.S.891         FOREST SERVICE, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE892893    Mr. French. Good morning. Thank you, Chairman Barrasso,894Ranking Member Cortez Masto, and other members of the895Subcommittee. It is my pleasure to be here today. Today, I will896present the views of the U.S. Department of Agriculture on 16897bills that pertain to the U.S. Forest Service.898    I am Chris French. I am the Associate Chief of the U.S.899Forest Service, and in the wide-ranging nature of the bills we900are discussing today, I think that when you look at all of901them, it really demonstrates the breadth of the work that we do902at the USDA Forest Service. The American people use national903forests and grasslands for essential activities that support904economies, ways of life, and American prosperity. Ranchers,905loggers, miners, and recreationists, among others, rely on906accessing these lands for their families, businesses, livestock907grazing, timber harvesting, hunting and fishing, recreation,908and mineral and energy development, all of which we will be909discussing today in these bills.910    While the work we do on behalf of the American taxpayer is911largely focused on delivering services locally, we recognize912that management of our lands has broader regional and national913impacts. So, I hope that today's discussion showcases the many914ways in which national forests and grasslands provide benefit915and opportunity to the entire country. While our positions vary916across the bills, our testimony expresses our willingness to917sit down and work with bill sponsors and the Subcommittee on918the ideas they put forward. As always, I defer to the919Department of the Interior for its views on the elements of920these bills that would impact lands under its jurisdiction.921Many of the bills included in today's hearing align with the922Forest Service's commitment to ensuring the National Forest923System lands are accessible and productive to the American924people.925    S. 2968 updates the Forest Service travel management and926motor vehicle use plans in order to facilitate access to a927variety of recreation opportunities for all Americans. H.R.9283872 expands opportunities for hardrock mineral leasing on929federal lands. S. 2787 and S. 1981 promote grazing on national930forests and grasslands, ensuring streamlined implementation of931permitting and the use of grazing as a strategic wildfire risk932reduction tool. We support the goal of all of these bills and933we hope to work further with the bill sponsors on any technical934adjustments.935    H.R. 204 supports the Agency's ongoing efforts to build936trust with the American public around the work we do, and in937this case, our efforts to reduce wildfire risk. We support this938bill and would like to work with the sponsor to ensure the939bill's reporting requirements fully capture wildland fire risk940to communities, the scope and effectiveness of our treatment941efforts, and the associated cost to the American people.942    The remaining 11 bills under discussion today direct land-943based changes in specific geographies. Across these bills, the944Forest Service is committed to working with communities,945tribes, and other local entities to resolve issues related to946land uses. The Agency is similarly committed to working with947you, Congress, to ensure that the bills' text achieves your948intent. Across these bills, we do not support actions that949limit our management flexibility or conflict with executive950orders and other administration policies. To this end, the951administration does not support further mineral withdraws from952the federal, state and/or additional wilderness or wild and953scenic river designations that limit our management.954    While our written testimony details some local concerns, in955general, we support land conveyances, transfers, and disposals956that make sense for our communities. In my experience, the957legislative language directing these actions can often directly958affect the agency timelines to complete them. We want to make959sure that we are responsive and we meet your expected time960frames established in the bills. So, for that reason, we hope961to work with you to ensure that the bill language directing962these actions facilitates prompt execution through the use of963consistent language that streamlines our process requirements,964reduces burden on agency resources, and effectively achieves965the congressional intent.966    That concludes my testimony. I look forward to your967questions and the opportunity to testify here today.968    [The prepared statement of Mr. French follows:]969    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]970971    Senator Barrasso. Thanks so very much.972    Ms. Regan.973    Ms. Regan. Thank you. Good morning, Chairman Barrasso,974Ranking Member Cortez Masto, and members of the Subcommittee.975As I am Julie Regan, the Executive Director of the Tahoe976Regional Planning Agency, I am prepared for S. 3695. So, I will977cede my time to others until that is called for further in the978program.979    Thank you.980    Senator Barrasso. Senator Hyde-Smith, would you like to981talk about your bill before we go to the questions?982    Senator Hyde-Smith. I would, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and983thank you to these witnesses for being willing to do what you984are doing, and all the services that you provide, but985definitely for your dedication. It is much appreciated. And I986do appreciate the opportunity to speak on the American Shores987Protection Act of 2025 that would codify the 2020 memorandum988that placed a moratorium on oil and gas leasing in the eastern989Gulf of America. The moratorium still remains in effect today,990and the bill comes as the Bureau of Ocean Energy Management991(BOEM) continues to advance the draft proposed program for the99211th National Outer Continental Shelf Oil and Gas Leasing993Program.994    The proposal fulfills BOEM's statutory responsibilities and995it aligns with President Trump's executive order ``Unleashing996American Energy''--what I have been so anxious to do. The997proposal considers all potential options in federal waters that998could benefit the American people. Expanding opportunities in999the Gulf could help meet growing energy demand, create jobs,1000and support refineries along the Gulf Coast. Additionally,1001sales will help fund the Land and Water Conservation Fund,1002benefiting states across the country, not just Mississippi.1003Congress should allow BOEM's process to proceed without1004restricting the administration's authority.1005    Thank you again, Mr. Chairman. I hope Congress continues1006exploring policies that strengthen American energy production1007on behalf of all Americans, and again, thank you guys for being1008here.1009    Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Hyde-Smith.1010    Senator Murkowski, would you like to make an opening1011statement, or would you prefer that we proceed to the1012questioning? It's up to you, your choice.1013    Senator Murkowski. Let's go ahead and proceed with the1014questioning, please.1015    Senator Barrasso. All right, thank you.1016    Mr. Checketts, if we can talk about some of the things you1017mentioned in your testimony, you know, almost half the land in1018Wyoming is owned by the Federal Government. In most of our1019states the Federal Government is the number one landlord for1020all of us here--public places that people from Wyoming depend1021on, accessing their livelihoods. Congress directed grazing,1022timber harvesting, and recreation to occur on these federal1023lands. National grasslands fall under a different authority,1024and therefore, there is no certainty when it comes to grazing1025permittees and the certainty that you talked about in your1026testimony. So, can you please describe the importance of1027certainty for you and other permittees on the national1028grasslands?1029    Mr. Checketts. Senator Barrasso, it's so important that1030this bill passes. Let me explain. Currently, our grazing1031agreements can be canceled within 30 days--30-day notice.1032Imagine running a business where all you have is a 30-day1033guarantee. Many ranchers, such as myself, have debts. Many1034ranchers have obligations. We all have families to feed and1035cows to take care of. Think about the local economies, the1036schools, the hardware stores, the dealerships. Our local1037economies require ranching. We have to have ranching to support1038our rural way of life. It's the backbone of America. Some of1039the finest people I know are those who work every day out1040there, taking care of our lands to make them better for1041generations to come.1042    Senator Barrasso. In a second, I am going to ask you what1043you actually have to go through each time a permit comes up for1044renewal because national grasslands and national forests fall1045under the jurisdiction of the Forest Service. They are not1046required to renew permits or allow grazing on the national1047grasslands. So, tell me what you have to go through.1048    Mr. Checketts. Thank you, Senator. I am going to tell you a1049personal story. In 2022, when with the Thunder Basin Grazing1050Association went to renew our permits, there was a disagreement1051between our friends with the Forest Service, and we were simply1052told that if we did not sign, that we would be trespassing. So,1053we signed under duress. And I tell you, it is a stressful time1054for us, it is a stressful time for the Forest Service. Passing1055this bill will help us so that we have long-term sustainability1056on the 10-year deal, but that is something else that we should1057work on too.1058    Senator Barrasso. So, you talked about the benefits to the1059local communities of the ranching and the agriculture. Could1060you also talk about how cattle grazing helps the national1061grasslands?1062    Mr. Checketts. I would love to do that. I will tell you1063what, ranchers are the original conservationists. Nobody loves1064the land more than we do. Every day we work to protect the1065land, to preserve it, to make it better, to make it sustainable1066for our cattle, for our families, for our livelihoods, for the1067sportsmen that enjoy it. It helps with invasive species. As we1068graze, it protects against cheatgrass. Grazing protects us1069against the wildfires that destroy our local economies and cost1070millions of dollars each year.1071    Senator Barrasso. So now that I have Chief French here, I1072am asking you, following up on what we have just heard, federal1073grazing permits from the U.S. Forest Service can be obtained1074for both national forest land and national grassland. Currently1075there is a lack of certainty that we are hearing about for the1076communities and for the ranchers and a lack of clarity for the1077permittees who wish to renew or obtain permits. How does the1078Forest Service undergo permit renewals for national forest land1079compared to the grasslands?1080    Mr. French. It's under two different statutes. Mr.1081Checketts is right. There shouldn't be two different standards.1082They should be treated the same, and we would like to1083administer them in the same ways.1084    Senator Barrasso. Great.1085    And then in terms of wildfire, the United States Forest1086Service manages, what, 193 million acres of land, 154 national1087forests, 20 national grasslands, including, of course, the1088Thunder Basin National Grassland in my home State of Wyoming.1089Wildfires across the United States burn millions of acres every1090year--land at risk, homeowners at risk, the ranchers. How does1091grazing on Forest Service land actually help mitigate fire1092risk?1093    Mr. French. It reduces fine fuels that carry those fires.1094It reduces dead fuels that often are carrying those fires, and1095most of those grassland systems, they evolved over time with1096fire as a part of them, and with heavy grazing. And so, it's a1097natural part of the system.1098    Senator Barrasso. Great.1099    Mr. French. It helps.1100    Senator Barrasso. Mr. Checketts, anything else you would1101like to add?1102    Mr. Checketts. This is so important, Senator, to take care1103of the ranchers, the local economies. I am so passionate about1104ranching. I mean, it is the backbone of America. As you know,1105in our home State of Wyoming, there are 500,000 people and a1106million cows. And everything that people use each day has beef1107in it, whether it's the makeup, whether it's our shampoo.1108Everything that has glycerin--I mean, beef is important.1109    Senator Barrasso. It's what for dinner--and breakfast and1110lunch in Wyoming.1111    Mr. Checketts. Beef, beef, beef, beef.1112    [Laughter.]1113    Senator Barrasso. Thank you.1114    Senator Cortez Masto.1115    Thanks for being here.1116    Mr. Checketts. Thank you.1117    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. Thank you to the panelists1118as well.1119    Ms. Regan, let me ask you a couple questions. I appreciate1120that you are here to talk about the Santini-Burton1121Modernization Act. To start with, why is the Santini-Burton1122Modernization Act necessary? If you would address that, and1123then also how it differs from the original act from 1980?1124    Ms. Regan. Thank you, Senator Cortez Masto. Again, good1125morning, Chairman Barrasso and Ranking Member, and members of1126the Subcommittee. Julie Regan here, Executive Director of the1127Tahoe Regional Planning Agency. I will give you some brief1128introductory remarks and then continue to fine tune point the1129question.11301131  OPENING STATEMENT OF JULIE REGAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, TAHOE1132                    REGIONAL PLANNING AGENCY11331134    Ms. Regan. Our agency was formed by an interstate compact1135between California and Nevada, and ratified by Congress in11361969. Our mission is to protect Lake Tahoe, a federally1137designated Outstanding National Resource Water, while1138supporting our local communities and economy. I do appreciate1139the opportunity to address your questions and the Committee1140today in support of the Santini-Burton Modernization Act, S.11413695, a bi-state, bipartisan bill that is of the utmost1142importance to Lake Tahoe. The Tahoe Basin is the ancestral and1143current home of the Washoe people--the Washoe Tribe of Nevada1144and California, as they are known today. Tahoe is also the1145second deepest lake in the United States and one of the1146clearest large lakes in the world. Tahoe's nearly 200-square-1147mile surface straddles the border of California and Nevada at1148more than 6,200 feet in elevation in the Sierra Nevada Mountain1149range.1150    Tahoe welcomes millions of visitors every year to our1151public lands. Outdoor recreation and tourism drive our $51152billion annual economy. This, in turn, supports our very small1153year-round population of 55,000 people. Tahoe also boasts a1154sizable community of second-home owners, who hail from nearly1155every state in the nation. Today, nearly 80 percent of the1156Tahoe Basin is owned and managed by the United States Forest1157Service, but it has not always been like this. The first public1158lands in the Lake Tahoe Basin were established in 1899, as the1159Lake Tahoe Forest Reserve, and totaled 37,000 acres with no1160access to Lake Tahoe's beaches. By 1960, just 50 percent of the1161Tahoe Basin was publicly owned. The 1980 Santini-Burton Act was1162essential to Lake Tahoe's conservation and public lands success1163story.1164    Under the law, funds from the authorized sales of federal1165lands in Clark County, Nevada were appropriated to the Forest1166Service to acquire more than 16,000 acres of land in the Tahoe1167Basin. Through conservation and ongoing management, these1168public lands protect Lake Tahoe's famed clarity, are critical1169in community forest health and wildfire prevention, and offer1170world-class recreation opportunities. However, changes to the1171law decades ago inadvertently limited the law's scope so funds1172could only be used to acquire lands, but not to manage them.1173The lack of management funding contributes to negative1174environmental, community, and economic impacts across the1175region. If enacted, modernization would free up existing1176funding for ongoing land management, allowing the Tahoe Basin1177to complete more lake-saving environmental improvement1178projects--projects that protect Tahoe's famed clarity, improve1179recreation access, manage forests, and reduce wildfire risk.1180The modernized bill enables the Washoe Tribe of Nevada and1181California to make a meaningful step toward advancing1182traditional knowledge for forest health management and1183restoring tribal stewardship on their lands.1184    Finally, the bill maintains the 1980 federal land sale1185boundaries in Clark County, and adds no new cost to taxpayers.1186The Santini-Burton Modernization Act is the product of a multi-1187year collaboration by our agency, Tahoe's state and local1188governments, the public, the Washoe Tribe of Nevada and1189California, non-profits, and the private sector. The bill also1190requires ongoing local input through an annual spending plan1191and partnerships with state and local jurisdictions.1192    In 1980, Congress had a bold vision--transforming Tahoe1193into the national treasure that it is today. Thanks to Santini-1194Burton, Tahoe's unique character continues to be of national1195significance. But the threats to the lake require new1196solutions, solutions that the Santini-Burton Modernization Act1197can help deliver. I appreciate the consideration of this1198Committee today. Hopefully, you all have the opportunity to1199visit Tahoe soon. Samuel Clemens, the American author better1200known as Mark Twain, is a local legend in Nevada and the Tahoe1201Basin. He described the power of spending time at Lake Tahoe1202when he wrote, ``three months of camp life on Lake Tahoe would1203restore an Egyptian mummy to his pristine vigor and give him an1204appetite like an alligator.'' Quite a description.1205    [The prepared statement of Ms. Regan follows:]1206    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]12071208    Ms. Regan. I appreciate the opportunity to now answer your1209direct question, and the main difference that I would like to1210point out, as a summary of my testimony, Senator Cortez Masto1211and members of the Committee, is that the challenges are very1212different today in 2026 than they were in 1980. I will use a1213prop to demonstrate the power of the iPhone, which did not1214exist in 1980, and now with Instagram and social media, people1215descend in certain places all at one time, too many places and1216too many impacts to our natural resources. We are actually1217having resources degraded on our public lands, and the funds1218that were used to acquire those lands cannot be used to1219maintain those lands and to take care of those natural1220resources. So, that is a main difference.1221    Another issue is our wildfire protection and the ability to1222actively manage lands that were purchased under the sale of1223Santini-Burton funds for defensible space and fire safety.1224    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.1225    Let me just ask you one final question here. Discuss the1226difference between the funding that the Lake Tahoe Restoration1227Act provides versus what the Santini-Burton Modernization Act1228provides.1229    Ms. Regan. Thank you, Senator, for the question. Julie1230Regan, TRPA's Executive Director, Tahoe Regional Planning1231Agency. The Lake Tahoe Restoration Act, which you championed1232along with our colleagues across the delegations in California1233and Nevada, has been vital to the protection of lake clarity,1234our forest health, fighting aquatic invasive species, and these1235programs are very large capital investment programs and1236projects. The Santini-Burton Modernization Act would allow1237maintenance to support those investments, making good on those1238investments, and it is a different suite of impacts that we are1239seeing. The Restoration Act will not address the recreational1240impacts. The Santini-Burton Modernization Act funds would1241support maintenance and protection of our recreation assets to1242allow more public access in the future.1243    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.1244    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1245    Senator Barrasso. Thank you.1246    Senator Murkowski.1247    Senator Murkowski. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I1248appreciate you and the Ranking Member for holding the hearing,1249and including S. 2554, which is the Alaska Native Landless1250Equity Act, on the agenda. This is legislation that has been1251co-sponsored by the entire Alaska delegation. Congressman1252Begich has introduced a companion in the House.1253    This is legislation that we dub our ``landless1254legislation,'' and we are seeking to resolve an injustice that1255has been around for about a half a century now in Southeast1256Alaska. For reasons that are perhaps unknown and still debated,1257there are five communities--the communities of Haines,1258Ketchikan, Petersburg, Tenakee, and Wrangell--that were omitted1259from ANCSA's authorizations to form village corporations back1260in 1971. And as a result, the Alaska Natives in these1261communities have not received the lands that they were entitled1262to under ANCSA that other Alaska Natives received a long time1263ago. And that has left a situation that has just been unfair--1264wrong, in my view, and something that needs to be addressed.1265And it's our responsibility in this Committee to attempt to do1266that. That is what this bill does.1267    It allows formation of five urban corporations. It1268specifies the exact parcels of land that they have selected to1269fulfill the land entitlement. And importantly, it does so while1270fully protecting public access, valid existing rights,1271including for fishing, hunting, recreation, subsistence. It's1272about 115,000 acres of land for the landless communities. Now,1273some of you may say that seems like a lot, but in Alaska, or1274the Southeast region, or even the federal holdings in1275Southeast, which total about 21.9 million acres, what we are1276talking about here for this landless group is about one half of1277one percent going to rightful native ownership while about 1901278times more stays under federal control.1279    We have worked really hard over the years to bring this1280legislation to a place where people who are looking at it can1281say this is fair and this is something that I can support. We1282refined it. We worked it over and over again. This Committee1283has seen this issue before us multiple times. We have held1284Committee hearings on it over and over--in 2015, 2023, today.1285So, this is a little bit of a rerun here. But the changes that1286we have incorporated have been based on what we have heard from1287many, identifying the challenges, turning them around and1288really turning opponents into supporters--among them, believe1289it or not, the Nature Conservancy.1290    They wrote us a letter back in 2023, which we reported to1291the bill with its passage. And as part of that letter, they1292say, ``Too often, advocacy in the United States has1293intentionally sought to undermine the rights of indigenous1294peoples in the name of conservation. This has caused tremendous1295harm to Alaska Native peoples and their traditional homelands,1296and the legacy of this power dynamic continues to this day.1297With this history in mind, TNC publicly affirms our support for1298resolution for the landless communities in Southeast Alaska. In1299assessing this legislation, we hope the voices that are most1300important to this Committee are not those of conservation1301groups, but rather, those of the sovereign nations in Southeast1302Alaska for whom this has been a generation-long injustice.''1303That is from the Nature Conservancy.1304    The Wilderness Society also wrote us a letter apologizing1305to the landless people for the hurt caused by their past1306opposition and declaring their support for the bill. So, we1307have come a long way, colleagues.1308    I am going to ask unanimous consent to add those letters1309from the Nature Conservancy and the Wilderness Society to the1310hearing record.1311    Senator Barrasso. Without objection.1312    [The letters referred to follow:]1313    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]13141315    Senator Murkowski. But I would ask colleagues, take a look1316at them. See the legislation through the eyes of some of these1317conservation groups that have really been following this issue1318for a long time. I think we have worked to strike the proper1319balance and we are doing right by a special place, by the1320Tongass. We know that every acre in the Tongass is important to1321somebody, and particularly to those who have lived there since1322time immemorial.1323    I want to ask one quick question to you, Mr. French. You1324know this issue very, very well. You have been around it a long1325time. In your testimony, you acknowledge the special1326relationship. You acknowledge the role that the Tongass plays1327in the economic health and prosperity of the region's1328community, and you point out that you are looking forward to1329discussing with the Subcommittee and the sponsor the1330implications of the bill, particularly to the timber program on1331the Tongass. I guess the direct question is, does the U.S.1332Forest Service, does USDA support our landless legislation?1333    Mr. French. Thank you, Senator, for the question. And you1334are right, we have spent years working through the details.1335    Senator Murkowski. Yes.1336    Mr. French. On the individual parcels, and we completely1337understand the need and the whole delegation's approach on1338this, and we are very appreciative. We don't oppose the bill.1339We want to make sure that everybody does understand there are1340parts of this that will impact some planned timber sales. And1341as long as everybody knows that, we look forward to working1342with you as it goes forward.1343    Senator Murkowski. Well, again, I would just remind that1344the parcels that have been identified have gone through a very1345laborious, thorough, open process in terms of identification.1346So, I would like to think that we can work with the Forest1347Service to deconflict in these areas. So, you have committed to1348working with us, and I appreciate that. BLM has also committed1349to working with us on some technical modifications. We think1350that we are in pretty good shape because you have been working1351with us, again, whether it's technical modifications or with1352regard to actual selection. So, my goal is to finally bring1353this home, that after decades of a longstanding injustice, that1354the people in these communities are finally able to have the1355equity that they deserve. And I would like to think that our1356agencies are going to be partners with us in achieving just1357that, along with this Committee.1358    Thank you, Madam Chair.1359    Senator Cortez Masto [presiding]. Thank you.1360    Senator Heinrich.1361    Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Ranking Member.1362    Mr. French, we have seen a pretty substantial cut in the1363workforce in New Mexico in the Forest Service. We have seen1364that on the Santa Fe. We have seen it on the Carson National1365Forest, the Cibola, the Lincoln, the Gila. It has been felt1366across the system, from issues like trail maintenance, to1367processing permits for outfitter guides, to wildfire1368preparedness. The bills that we are talking about today direct1369your agency to do a number of things--to take actions and1370undertake new endeavors and new policies, all of which require1371an adequate workforce. How many National Forest System staff1372would actually be needed to fulfill your mission, all of the1373things that the Congress has tasked the National Forest System1374to do and to properly manage the roughly 193 million acres of1375land that the U.S. Forest Service manages?1376    Mr. French. That's a big question.1377    Senator Heinrich. And I bet the Forest Service has looked1378at this.1379    Mr. French. We have.1380    Senator Heinrich. I bet there's an answer.1381    Mr. French. So, I mean, the reality is, if you look at the1382requirements of statutes of what we are told and asked to1383accomplish, the needs for funding and staffing far exceed the1384requirements that are placed on us to manage those to standard,1385and we manage the largest trail system in the country, 165,0001386miles of trails. And yet, the staffing that we have, and the1387budgets that we have, we struggle to maintain up to a third of1388it a year. Now, I mean, we are working to overcome the things1389you just talked about. Today, we are announcing 2,000 summer1390hires, recreation hires to assist us in overcoming that work.1391We have been in a place of getting our workforce to a more1392sustainable level to the budgets we have, but we have done that1393work. We can certainly share it with you. I am not prepared,1394today, to give you----1395    Senator Heinrich. I would appreciate it if you can share1396that work with us.1397    Do we pay our firefighters enough?1398    Mr. French. In my opinion?1399    Senator Heinrich. Yes, in your opinion.1400    Mr. French. No. I think that--I want to be thoughtful here,1401because I don't have with me a particular position from the1402administration, but as a past firefighter, myself----1403    Senator Heinrich. Yes.1404    Mr. French. When I look at what we ask them to do, and1405watching over the last 20 years, our fire seasons becoming1406larger and larger, putting more and more demands on them and1407their families, and when I look at what is being compensated at1408state levels, I think there is work to do there.1409    Senator Heinrich. Mr. Raby, same question. The BLM manages1410246 million acres. How many folks would we need to adequately1411manage that?1412    Mr. Raby. Senator, thank you for the question. And of1413course, in the Bureau of Land Management, we have an1414organization of about 9,000 employees to manage 245 million1415acres. We receive about $5.75 per acre to manage these lands,1416which, we have always been a lean organization. We have been1417very focused, again, on our mission delivery, and at the same1418time, ensuring that we have organizational efficiency and1419workforce optimization. So, we have these, you know, again, we1420have always had these sort of competing objectives at times,1421but they are complementary objectives as well. And so, while,1422again, we may not have always received what we may have1423desired, we can't look on ourselves and say we are going to be1424woeful about what we don't have. We are very focused on what we1425do have, and then we set our priorities accordingly, and of1426course, we are fully staffed in our wildland fire organization,1427as well as law enforcement, and energy and minerals. And then,1428we certainly rely on a lot of partners to help us, between1429state and local organizations as well.1430    Senator Heinrich. The parcels that were identified for1431withdrawal in the Buffalo Tract Protection Act make up roughly1432a little over 4,000 acres. One of my concerns is that they are1433kind of scattered through residential neighborhoods. So, the1434impacts of a gravel mine amongst a residential community would1435be felt pretty acutely, and residents are rightly worried about1436health impacts, noise, particulate pollution, as well as1437disruption to wildlife in the area. I mean, that's kind of the1438reason why there is, to my knowledge, no real opposition to1439this legislation. There is literally a gravel mine just down1440the road that is very successful and people are okay with1441because it's not in the middle of a residential community. Do1442you think that a suburban neighborhood is the appropriate place1443for a gravel mine?1444    Mr. Raby. Senator, thank you again for the question. And1445when we look at the proposal for mineral withdrawals, that can1446preclude opportunities and options for, again, what we believe1447is responsible development that can take into account local1448considerations.1449    Senator Heinrich. I'm sorry, Mr. Raby. How is it1450responsible to put a very noisy, very particulate-heavy1451industrial activity in the middle of a suburban neighborhood? I1452don't understand the responsible part of that statement.1453    Mr. Raby. We go through a lengthy process between the1454environmental reviews.1455    Senator Heinrich. I know the process. Because I heard about1456it from all of the community members in that area. I don't know1457of anyone who supports this. Your position--the BLM position--1458has literally no community support. Do you listen to the1459community before you make a decision like that?1460    Mr. Raby. Well, Senator, of course we listen to the1461community. We have our local line officers, our district1462managers, field managers who absolutely are engaged with the1463community, and they have to also account for the national1464policy direction when we have a declared national energy1465emergency, which, by reference, includes a mineral emergency.1466We have to----1467    Senator Heinrich. How does producing gravel solve the1468national energy emergency?1469    Mr. Raby. Yeah, it's a mineral resource that, again,1470provides----1471    Senator Heinrich. Right.1472    Mr. Raby. Opportunity for development and----1473    Senator Heinrich. Which we produce five miles away in1474abundance.1475    Mr. Raby. Your point is well taken. I understand.1476    Senator Heinrich. My point is that your policy in this case1477is completely disconnected from the local community, and while1478we have very wide opinions on this Committee, where we get1479crosswise is when there is a federal policy dictated from1480Washington, DC that is completely disconnected. And this is1481where Senator Murkowski and I actually agree. It's where1482Senator Daines and I actually agree. When we get in trouble is1483when we don't listen to the local community, and in this case,1484it is my view that the administration and the BLM are1485completely ignoring the local community.1486    And so, Ranking Member Cortez Masto, I want to enter into1487the record, if there is no objection, all of the community1488groups, from local tribes, to the county, to the local1489municipality, to the neighborhood association that this would1490impact, their views on the Buffalo Tract Protection Act.1491    Senator Cortez Masto. Without objection.1492    Senator Heinrich. Thank you.1493    [Letters and statements of support for the Buffalo Tract1494Protection Act follow:]1495[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]14961497    Senator Barrasso [presiding]. Anything else? Any additional1498questions?1499    Senator Cortez Masto. I do, Mr. Chairman.1500    Senator Barrasso. Please.1501    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you for the opportunity here.1502    Mr. French, let me talk to you, something similar, on the1503same vein that you are hearing, I think, from some of my1504colleagues. I want to talk about S. 1349, which is the Ruby1505Mountains Protection Act. In December, Senator Heinrich had1506asked you at a hearing here about the agency's decision to1507rescind a land withdrawal for the Pecos Watershed in New1508Mexico. And at that time, you replied the administration's1509policy is to preserve the spaces we have right now for future1510development until such time that we understand what our current1511mineral development is across the agency. I respect that.1512    The agency, however, Mr. French, also rescinded then an1513administrative withdrawal for the Ruby Mountains in northern1514Nevada. And I know you are familiar with this because we have1515talked about this. However, the agency already understands the1516current mineral development potential in the Rubies, because in15172019, under the first Trump administration, the Forest Service1518released a decision saying that ``with the overall unfavorable,1519non-conducive oil and gas geologic conditions and the `No to1520Very Low' and `Low' potential for oil and gas, these lands have1521low energy resource values. Offering low energy resource value1522lands . . . would not serve the best interest of the public1523from an industrial or environmental perspective.''1524    So, this bill that we are introducing is merely a1525codification of the Trump administration's findings in 2019.1526So, I guess my question to you is, why are we still here with1527the withdrawal? Why are we still fighting this? And why are you1528still opposed to moving forward?1529    Mr. French. Senator, I understand exactly why you are1530asking the question. That was the decision in 2019. That1531decision remains, and will continue to protect in that local1532way the further development of oil and gas. You know, what we1533are talking about here is, where a national policy approach,1534which, again, from the administration, is about making sure1535that we maintain the flexibility for future mineral1536development, aligned with policies that doing something through1537an administrative or legislative withdrawal doesn't take into1538account the local needs. And I think that was part of the1539conversation that was just happening to understand that.1540    In this case, you are seeing a position in a statement1541that, in general, does not support any sort of withdrawals, but1542it doesn't change the fact of that 2019 decision that we made1543that made that finding that essentially limits oil and gas1544development in the Ruby Mountains.1545    Senator Cortez Masto. So, then let me jump to you, Mr.1546Raby. On January 14, 2025, the BLM initiated a two-year1547segregation to consider a 20-year administrative public land1548withdrawal for the Ash Meadows National Wildlife Refuge and1549surrounding BLM lands that have been threatened by mining1550proposals to drill into the sensitive groundwater system, which1551could dry up seeps and springs that are the core of this1552refuge. You as well know the Devils Hole unit of Death Valley1553National Park and the lifeblood of the surrounding area. Local1554community leaders are in unanimous consent in their desire to1555see this withdrawal. A meeting took place on February 27, 20251556to receive public comment, but it is unclear if anything has1557taken place.1558    So, Director Raby, I am disappointed, obviously in the Ruby1559Mountains withdrawal decision. I don't quite understand it,1560still, but I am glad the segregation for Ash Meadows has1561remained in effect, under the same administration. I'm a little1562curious about why there is a difference between the two, just1563pointing that out, but can you give me the status of the1564withdrawal?1565    Mr. Raby. Senator, thank you for the question, and the1566status is that the parcel segregation is still in place, as in1567about, you know, 14 months of the two-year parcel segregation,1568we continue to work on, you know, with our partners with the1569Fish and Wildlife Service, the evaluation of that area. We no1570longer have the same mining proposal out there currently. And1571so, that, you know, does not exist out there, that application.1572And so, we will take that under consideration as to whether a1573mineral withdrawal would even be appropriate to advise on in1574the future.1575    Senator Cortez Masto. Do you think you are going to need1576more time for any analysis, and if so, would you let us know1577and seek an extension of it?1578    Mr. Raby. We will certainly let you know.1579    Senator Cortez Masto. Okay, thank you.1580    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1581    Senator Barrasso. Well, I think Senator Daines is on the1582way down to ask a couple of questions related to his bill, but1583any other thoughts that any of you have based on the hearing1584and what you have heard from one another today about ways we1585can be helpful?1586    Mr. Checketts. Everyone is looking at me, but I----1587    [Laughter.]1588    Mr. Checketts. I better say something.1589    Senator Barrasso. We are having this hearing--in my1590opinion, this is the key bill to the Committee, so.1591    Mr. Checketts. Well, Senator Barrasso, I will tell you1592what, grazing is so important. And grazing really protects our1593nation, protects our food supply. We have seen a lot of things1594in the news lately about beef prices, and even with beef prices1595the way it is today, guys, it's still tough to make it as a1596rancher. The beef prices, similar to what it was in 1980, when1597you add in inflation, when you add in all the different costs1598of operating, so to tie it back to our bill, our bill is so1599important to protect our ranching, to protect our families, the1600people that work every day to feed this nation, to clothe this1601nation, to give us the different supplies. And I am grateful1602for our Forest Service and BLM partners, and I affectionately1603say that we own the grass, you guys own the land, and I am1604grateful for them. Without the Forest Service and BLM, we1605couldn't make it work.1606    What a nice nation this is to have the opportunity to work1607together with our federal lands to make it possible to feed our1608nation, and to allow me, as a rancher, to do what I love, what1609I am passionate about--to ranch, provide for my family, provide1610for my cattle. And I promise you that we take care of the land.1611We love the land more than anyone, and we appreciate that1612opportunity and our partners here in this room to allow us to1613do it. It is the honor of our lives. And we will take care of1614it.1615    Thank you.1616    Senator Barrasso. Well, you mentioned earlier, the best1617stewards of the land are the people that live on the land, the1618people that are there locally that want to make sure we are1619protecting it. We talk about the environment, the respect for1620the environment of the people that are on that land.1621    Mr. Checketts. Yeah, we love it. And you know, we talked--I1622heard these guys talking about fire. We are grateful, also, for1623our partnership when we fight fires with the Forest Service and1624BLM, but I just want to add something here, and the important1625thing is cooperation and collaboration. I serve on two1626different rural fire communities, and when they are anxious to1627go fight fires, we are there first, and our Forest Service and1628BLM partners come and it works so good when we work together.1629And my encouragement to save money would be to have more local1630leadership with our BLM and Forest Service partners when we1631fight these fires. They have these command centers, and it's1632important that they involve the local people there.1633    Senator Barrasso. Great. Well, thanks so very much to all1634of you. We are going to turn to Senator Daines for questions,1635but maybe other members may have additional questions, and they1636will be sent to you. There is going to be a deadline for us to1637submit those questions, and that is close of business tomorrow,1638but we would ask that you get the answers back to us by a week1639from the end of this hearing today.1640    Senator Daines.1641    Senator Daines. Great. Chairman Barrasso, thank you.1642    Mr. Raby, when FLPMA was enacted, the BLM was directed to1643identify lands with wilderness characteristics. Congress has1644the opportunity to consider adding these lands to the National1645Wilderness Preservation System. Today, the BLM manages 4871646wilderness study areas, totaling about 11.1 million acres.1647Thirty-seven of those 487 are in Montana. Until Congress1648decides what to do with the WSAs, the BLM continues to manage1649the area with the status in limbo indefinitely--that study1650status. My question is, Mr. Raby, what are the long-term1651consequences for recreation, forest management, and even1652wildfire response of wilderness study areas not getting1653resolved?1654    Mr. Raby. Senator Daines, thank you very much for the1655question, and certainly having that wilderness study1656designation complicates multiple-use management. And so, it1657inherently limits our ability to carry out hazardous fuels1658reduction treatments. It can affect forest management1659activities. It can create limitations on recreation and access.1660So, it creates a layer of complicating, you know, management1661direction on areas that, as you noted previously, especially1662these ones in Montana that are before us in your proposed1663legislation, those were never found to be of suitable1664wilderness characteristics, and that has been since 1986.1665    And so, they do complicate multiple-use management out1666there, and certainly their release would help uncomplicate1667that.1668    Senator Daines. This isn't meant to be a Trivial Pursuit1669question, but do you remember who the President was in 1986?1670    Mr. Raby. Well, I believe that was Ronald Reagan.1671    Senator Daines. It was Ronald Reagan.1672    Mr. Raby. Yes.1673    Senator Daines. So it goes back to the Reagan presidency in1674terms of how long this has been in limbo and needs to be1675resolved. And we are talking about, in this bill I have,1676100,000 acres of 11 million acres that are currently in limbo1677under the wilderness study area designations. Do you agree that1678Congress does need to move forward to finally resolve these 111679million acres currently in limbo to either put them in1680permanent wilderness or back to general management?1681    Mr. Raby. Senator, the short answer is yes.1682    Senator Daines. Thank you.1683    Deputy Chief French, the Forest Service determined the1684Middle Fork Judith Wilderness Study Area was identified as1685unsuitable for wilderness over 30 years ago, and that was1686reaffirmed again in the fall of 2021 after extensive public1687engagement. Could you briefly talk about what led to this1688determination and what public input there was in that process?1689    Mr. French. Yeah, our forest planning process that looked1690at this a second time, the engagement occurred over the course1691of six years--many, many public meetings. I think there were1692over 100 organizations that commented. We had about 1,2001693individual comment letters that came in. And again, for the1694second time, it was found that it didn't have the1695characteristics to remain as wilderness. And so, we did our1696part of what Congress asked us to do, but it sits there still1697kind of in this limbo after we did the assessment, and it1698mandates a management that isn't aligned with what the1699community told us it should be.1700    Senator Daines. And I think that that's important1701testimony, and I thank you that there was a public process with1702a lot of public input. And again, with these WSAs, when they1703are deemed suitable for wilderness, we should be looking at1704taking the next step to make them wilderness, but when they are1705deemed not suitable for wilderness, we should return them back1706to the general management status, which, as I mentioned earlier1707in my opening remarks, still has multiple protections as it1708relates to the general management status. It's just that they1709won't be managed as de facto wilderness as they are today.1710    The Forest Service also manages three active grazing1711allotments that cover the majority of the WSA. I've got a1712poster board here behind me.1713    [The poster referred to follows:]1714    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]17151716    Senator Daines. In 2019, the Forest Service reported to the1717Montana legislature that there is no mining and the vegetative1718management is minimal, though the Forest Service has1719recommended, and I quote, ``nearly one million board-feet of1720harvest per year for fuels management and to help maintain1721early successional habitat for health.'' My question is, could1722you confirm for this Committee that this continues to be the1723recommendation and that releasing the Middle Fork Judith back1724to general management will benefit hazardous fuels reduction1725and wildlife habitat?1726    Mr. French. From my conversations back with the Forest1727Supervisor when they were doing this plan, generally, I would1728say yes. I haven't heard anything that would change that. You1729know, we are seeing a need to get in and actively manage these1730areas that have had fire excluded for as long as they have and1731have had no active management. I have not seen any change from1732that, so, yes, generally, I would agree.1733    Senator Daines. As we say out West in these dry semi-arid1734climates, that either we are going to get in and proactively1735manage the forest or the forest starts to manage us, certainly1736through these catastrophic wildfires that we see as fire season1737is lengthened and temperatures have increased.1738    How does the current designation affect the grazing1739allotments, and what happens if the WSA is returned to general1740management?1741    Mr. French. Well, I mean, I think the thing to remember1742here is that it is being managed as wilderness right now, and1743what that does for us is, it changes the way we can access1744things, the way that we can do improvements for our permittees1745that have range allotments in those places. It limits our1746ability for flexibility for increasing some of those allotments1747because wilderness requires you only to allow what was1748historically there when it was designated. And then, it just1749limits our ability for active management of those areas, even1750in some places, folks not wanting to see prescribed fire,1751although we can do it.1752    So, all of that is limited by the designation, of which,1753again, at the request of Congress to see if it was even1754suitable for that designation, through a large public process,1755we determined no, twice.1756    Senator Daines. Mr. French, thank you.1757    Mr. French. You're welcome.1758    Senator Barrasso. Well, thanks so very much to all of you.1759I appreciate all of your input and your testimony. It was very1760helpful for all of the members. We are looking forward to1761moving these bills forward. So, we appreciate your time.1762    This hearing is adjourned.1763    [Whereupon, at 11:19 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]17641765                      APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED17661767                              ----------17681769[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]17701771                                 [all]