“Restoring Immigration Enforcement in America”

1[House Hearing, 119 Congress]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                   RESTORING IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT5                               IN AMERICA67=======================================================================89                                HEARING1011                               BEFORE THE1213                 SUBCOMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION INTEGRITY,14                        SECURITY, AND ENFORCEMENT1516                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY1718                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES1920                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2122                             FIRST SESSION23                               __________2425                      WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 22, 202526                               __________2728                            Serial No. 119-129                               __________3031         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary3233               [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]3435               Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov3637                                  ------3839                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE404158-430                    WASHINGTON : 20254243                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY4445                        JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chair4647DARRELL ISSA, California             JAMIE RASKIN, Maryland, Ranking48ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                    Member49TOM McCLINTOCK, California           JERROLD NADLER, New York50THOMAS P. TIFFANY, Wisconsin         ZOE LOFGREN, California51THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky              STEVE COHEN, Tennessee52CHIP ROY, Texas                      HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr.,53SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin            Georgia54BEN CLINE, Virginia                  ERIC SWALWELL, California55LANCE GOODEN, Texas                  TED LIEU, California56JEFFERSON VAN DREW, New Jersey       PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington57TROY E. NEHLS, Texas                 J. LUIS CORREA, California58BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania59KEVIN KILEY, California              JOE NEGUSE, Colorado60HARRIET M. HAGEMAN, Wyoming          LUCY McBATH, Georgia61LAUREL M. LEE, Florida               DEBORAH K. ROSS, North Carolina62WESLEY HUNT, Texas                   BECCA BALINT, Vermont63RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina          JESUS G. ``CHUY'' GARCIA, Illinois64GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin            SYDNEY KAMLAGER-DOVE, California65BRAD KNOTT, North Carolina           JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida66MARK HARRIS, North Carolina          DANIEL S. GOLDMAN, New York67ROBERT F. ONDER, Jr., Missouri       JASMINE CROCKETT, Texas68DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas69BRANDON GILL, Texas70MICHAEL BAUMGARTNER, Washington7172                                 ------7374            SUBCOMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION INTEGRITY, SECURITY,75                            AND ENFORCEMENT7677                   TOM McCLINTOCK, California, Chair7879ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                  PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington,80TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin                 Ranking Member81CHIP ROY, Texas                      JERROLD NADLER, New York82JEFF VAN DREW, New Jersey            J. LUIS CORREA, California83TROY NEHLS, Texas                    MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania84BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 DEBORAH K. ROSS, North Carolina85WESLEY HUNT, Texas                   JESUS G. ``CHUY'' GARCIA, Illinois86RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina          JASMINE CROCKETT, Texas87GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin            ZOE LOFGREN, California88BRAD KNOTT, North Carolina           STEVE COHEN, Tennessee89ROBERT F. ONDER, Missouri            Vacant90DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas                Vacant91BRANDON GILL, Texas                  Vacant9293               CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Majority Staff Director94                  JULIE TAGEN, Minority Staff Director9596                            C O N T E N T S9798                              ----------99100                      Wednesday, January 22, 2025101102                           OPENING STATEMENTS103104                                                                   Page105106The Honorable Tom McClintock, Chair of the Subcommittee on107  Immigration Integrity, Security, and Enforcement from the State108  of California..................................................     1109The Honorable Zoe Lofgren, a Member of the Subcommittee on110  Immigration Integrity, Security, and Enforcement from the State111  of California..................................................     4112The Honorable Jim Jordan, Chair of the Committee on the Judiciary113  from the State of Ohio.........................................     5114The Honorable Jamie Raskin, Ranking Member of the Committee on115  the Judiciary from the State of Maryland.......................     5116117                               WITNESSES118119John Fabbricatore, Visiting Fellow, The Heritage Foundation120  Oral Testimony.................................................     8121  Prepared Testimony.............................................    11122Grant Newman, Director of Government Relations, Immigration123  Accountability Project124  Oral Testimony.................................................    15125  Prepared Testimony.............................................    17126David J. Bier, Director of Immigration Studies, CATO Institute127  Oral Testimony.................................................    25128  Prepared Testimony.............................................    27129Jessica M. Vaughan, Director of Policy Studies, Center for130  Immigration Studies131  Oral Testimony.................................................    50132  Prepared Testimony.............................................    52133134          LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC. SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING135136All materials submitted for the record by the Subcommittee on137  Immigration Integrity, Security, and Enforcement are listed138  below..........................................................   101139140Materials submitted by the Honorable Andy Biggs, a Member of the141  Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity, Security, and142  Enforcement from the State of Arizona, for the record143    An article entitled, ``Sanctuary City Dwellers Are Suffering144        Sexual Battery, `Stranger Rapes', Murders at the Hands of145        Illegal Aliens,'' Nov. 30, 2024, Breitbart146    An article entitled, ``What Democrats must learn from Biden's147        disastrous immigration record,'' Jan. 17, 2025, Vox148    An article entitled, ``Dems finally admit Biden botched149        border after 2024 election loss: `We destroyed150        ourselves,' '' Nov. 29, 2024, New York Post151    An article enitled, ``Hill Democrats say their warnings about152        the party's shortfalls on the border were ignored,'' Nov.153        8, 2024, CNN154    An article entitled, ``Cuellar on Mayorkas Claiming Border Is155        Secure: `Definitely, Absolutely, It Is Open,' '' Nov. 15,156        2022, Breitbart157    An article entitled, ``Quantifying Why Democrats Support Open158        Borders,'' Oct. 31, 2024, National Review159An article entitled, ``Saipan: The Island Where Chinese Mothers160  Deliver American Babies: Women looking to give birth to U.S.161  citizens have found a loophole in the Pacific on the island of162  Saipan,'' Dec. 22, 2017, The Wall Street Journal, submitted by163  Tom Tiffany, a Member of the Subcommittee on Immigration164  Integrity, Security, and Enforcement from the State of165  Wisconsin, for the record166An article entitled, ``January 6 rioters: Trump plans to issue167  pardons for some convicted,'' Jan. 19, 2025, CNN, submitted by168  the Honorable Jamie Raskin, Ranking Member of the Committee on169  the Judiciary from the State of Maryland, for the record170An arrest warrant from the United States District Court, Middle171  District of Florida, United States of America v. Daniel Charles172  Ball, Aug. 6, 2024, submitted by the Honorable Mary Gay173  Scanlon, a Member of the Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity,174  Security, and Enforcement from the State of Pennsylvania, for175  the record176Materials submitted by the Honorable Jasmine Crockett, a Member177  of the Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity, Security, and178  Enforcement from the State of Texas, for the record179    A study entitled, ``Undocumented Immigrant Offending Rate180        Lower Than U.S.-Born Citizen Rate,'' Sept. 12, 2024,181        National Institute of Justice (NIJ)182    An article entitled, ``Study says undocumented immigrants183        paid almost $100 billion in taxes,'' Aug. 2, 2024,184        Alabama Reflector185    An article entitled, ``White supremacists behind over 80% of186        extremism-related U.S. murders in 2022,'' Feb. 23, 2023,187        Reuters188189                   RESTORING IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT190                               IN AMERICA191192                               ----------193194                      Wednesday, January 22, 2025195196                        House of Representatives197198            Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity, Security,199                            and Enforcement200201                       Committee on the Judiciary202                             Washington, DC203204    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m., in205Room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Hon. Tom206McClintock [Chair of the Subcommittee] presiding.207    Present: Representatives McClintock, Biggs, Tiffany, Roy,208Van Drew, Moore, Hunt, Fry, Grothman, Knott, Onder, Schmidt,209Gill, Jordan, Baumgartner, Nadler, Scanlon, Ross, Garcia,210Crockett, Lofgren, and Cohen.211    Mr. McClintock. The Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity,212Security, and Enforcement will come to order.213    I want to thank all of you for coming today. This is a new214age for America, a new golden age, we all pray, and it's a215privilege for all of us to have a small role in this crucial216period in our history.217    I want to begin by welcoming the new Members of the218Subcommittee. We have Russell Fry, who will be joining us219shortly. He's a Member of the Judiciary Committee, but this220will be his first in on the Subcommittee on Immigration. He's221in his second term, a former Eagle Scout, and has his degree222from the law school of South Carolina.223    Glenn Grothman, also a veteran of the Judiciary Committee,224served in the Wisconsin State Senate. His J.D. is from225Wisconsin.226    Brad Knott, who is here, is a freshman, worked as a227prosecutor with a J.D. from Wake Forest.228    Bob Onder, who is here present, served in the Missouri229State Senate with a J.D. from St. Louis University.230    Derek Schmidt, a freshman from Kansas' 2nd District, a231former Attorney General of the State of Kansas, former Majority232Leader of the Kansas Senate, and with a J.D. from Georgetown.233    Finally, Brandon Gill, a freshman Member from Texas, an234investment banker.235    We welcome all of them to the Subcommittee today.236    Our Ranking Member, Ms. Jayapal, is absent today because of237the death of her father, and our hearts go out to her and her238grieving family. She'll be represented today by our former239Chair and Ranking Member of the Subcommittee, Ms. Lofgren, whom240I'll yield to introduce the new Democratic Members.241    Ms. Lofgren. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair.242    We have now on the Subcommittee Mr. Nadler, Ms. Scanlon,243Ms. Crockett, and Mr. Cohen. I think they are new to the244Subcommittee. The other Members have served before. We are245looking forward to a productive year.246    With that, I would yield back for our opening statements.247    Mr. McClintock. Thank you.248    The Subcommittee meets today to hear testimony to assist us249in restoring integrity, security, and enforcement to our250immigration laws, and we'll begin with opening statements.251    Our Nation has just suffered the largest illegal mass252migration in history, deliberately engineered, abetted, and253encouraged by President Joe Biden and his allies in Congress.254    For four years, the American people have endured the effect255of this calculated lawlessness. Schools flooded with non-256English-speaking students, hospitals packed with illegals257demanding free healthcare, Americans pushed out of homeless258shelters to make room for illegals, an estimated $150 billion a259year taken from struggling American families to pay for free260food, free legal services, free transportation, free housing,261free clothing, and free cell phones for all of those who have262broken into our country.263    Millions of American workers have been displaced, driving264down wages, and drying up opportunities for our own young265people. Deadly fentanyl trade coming across our open border now266claims the lives of tens of thousands of Americans every year.267Worst of all, among these illegal migrants have come the most268violent, dangerous, and malevolent criminals and criminal gangs269in the world while sanctuary laws and Democratic jurisdictions270protect them as they prey on innocent Americans.271    Every immigration-related agency in Biden's Executive272Branch had a part in destroying the integrity of our273immigration system. I'll read you just a few examples. The U.S.274Citizenship and Immigration Services did nothing to stop275extensive fraud and mass parole programs that it implemented276and delayed adjudication of legal immigration applications in277favor of those for illegal aliens.278    The State Department gave U.S. taxpayer money to279nongovernmental organizations to hire foreign nationals to tell280other foreign nationals how to circumvent U.S. immigration281laws.282    The Department of Homeland Security refused to prevent283fraud and visa programs and brought interior immigration284enforcement to a standstill. The Customs and Border Protection285abused its authority by paroling over 531,000 foreign nationals286in just one categorical parole program.287    The Department of Health and Human Services ignored its288duty to determine whether unaccompanied alien children who289arrived at the border had criminal backgrounds and were a290danger to themselves or others before releasing them into our291country.292    The Office of Refugee Resettlement used taxpayer dollars to293fund housing for illegal aliens. The Department of Justice told294its immigration judges to stop adjudicating cases, and it295reversed common sense Trump era opinions that prevented asylum296fraud.297    Time and again we were told by the Biden Administration and298Congressional Democrats that our border was secure. We were299told there was no national security or public safety risk. We300were told the administration could do nothing more to prevent301illegal immigration.302    Americans knew better, and they finally got tired of303feeling unsafe in their own towns, tired of seeing illegal304aliens sleeping in their community schools, recreation centers,305airports, police stations, and tired of footing the bills for306foreign nationals who showed nothing but contempt for U.S. law.307    On November 5th, last year, they delivered a resounding308victory to President Donald Trump with a clear and unambiguous309mandate to stop this insanity.310    Yesterday, President Trump, within hours of returning to311the presidency, issued 11 Executive Orders to, once again,312secure our borders, recover our sovereignty, protect our313people, and restore the rule of law.314    The wreckage of the Biden years will take many years to315repair. Between the six million illegals deliberately316trafficked into our country and another two million known317gotaways who evaded an utterly overwhelmed border patrol, an318illegal and unvetted population the size of the State of319Washington has been ushered into our country. That population320includes at least 99 terrorists that we know of; more than 1.4321million aliens who are right now defying court orders of322removal, 7.6 million aliens on the ICE nondetained docket.323    President Trump's Executive Orders reinstate the successful324Remain in Mexico program that it brought phony asylum claims to325a trickle until Joe Biden abolished it on his first day in326office. They revoked Biden's anti-enforcement Executive Orders327and policies and made clear to the world that the only pathway328into the United States is to obey our laws.329    After the largest illegal mass migration in history, this330administration must now undertake the largest repatriation331operation in history. I speak for every Republican on this332Committee, and I believe every Republican in this Congress when333I say we will stand behind him in this necessary work.334    This Congress must not only give President Trump the tools335to restore our national sovereignty, but we must also enact336laws so that a future Democratic President cannot, once again,337throw our borders wide open.338    We need to reform our asylum laws to ensure that only339legitimate claims will be honored. We must close the loopholes340that allowed Biden to abuse the limited parole authority that341Congress gave him. We must revamp our unaccompanied minor laws342to prevent human trafficking that ran rampant under Biden, and343we must rescue the hundreds of thousands of children that Biden344and his administration simply lost track of.345    We must restore integrity to our temporary and permanent346visa programs so that only those who are an asset to America347can take advantage of them. Much of that work will fall to the348Subcommittee, and all of that work begins today.349    I look forward to hearing from our witnesses to help us350chart that path.351    With that, I yield to the Ranking Member for her opening352statement.353    Ms. Lofgren. Thank you, Mr. Chair.354    Immigration to the United States has played an important355role over the centuries in making America a vibrant,356prosperous, and successful country, but it is broadly agreed357that our current immigration system is broken.358    We need to make necessary reforms and then vigorously359enforce the law. We need to provide the resources necessary to360secure the border and provide that only those who are permitted361entry into the United States are, in fact, so admitted. The362resources should include adequate personnel, technology, and363other tools to allow for the orderly entry of only those who364secure the proper permission for entry.365    We also need to change the law, to reform the law. When we366look to the administration, I think sometimes we should look in367the mirror because the necessary reform of immigration law is a368failure of Congress. We have tried over the years to improve369the law and in every case have failed. With our immigration370system broken and no longer functioning as it was once371intended, change is necessary.372    Now, I would include that from family separated due to373overly punitive laws to a dysfunctional employment-based system374mired in unworkable backlogs to a lengthy and overly complex375asylum process that has been exploited by transnational376criminal organizations preying on the desperate. The377Immigration and Nationality Act screams for reform.378    The failure to do that I believe, as the Chair has379indicated, did lead to an election of someone who promised to380engage in mass deportations, which I don't believe is381necessarily the answer to the challenge that we face.382    Without reform of the law, the Executive is now trying to383use a section of the law, 212(f), in a way that it was probably384never intended and in the past the courts have disallowed.385    The frustration with our immigration border problem has386also lent the President to engage in a direct attack on the387Constitution. The 14th Amendment says all persons born or388naturalized in the United States and subject to the389jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States and390State where they reside.391    It's pretty clear. Going back to the adoption of this392amendment, there's never been a question about if you're born393here, you're an American, but there's a direct assault on that.394    The idea that this is being done in the effort to preserve395public safety I think is belied by the other Executive action396taken by the President just yesterday where President Trump397pardoned hundreds of felons who violently attacked police398officers on January 6th. The decision to release violent399criminals into our community makes America less safe.400    More than 1,500 criminals were pardoned, including, and401I'll just mention three, Steve Cappuccio who ripped off Officer402Daniel Hodges' gas mask and beat him in the face while he was403stuck in a door. The attacks was so violent that Cappuccio held404his phone in his mouth so he could beat Officer Hodges with405both hands.406    D.J. Rodriguez who joined a mob attacking Officer Michael407Fanone and repeatedly shocked him in the neck with a taser408causing him to lose consciousness and suffer a heart attack.409    David Dempsey who climbed over other rioters to get410officers where he stomped on at least one officer's head, beat411officers with a flag pole, a crutch, a broken piece of412furniture, and sprayed officers' faces with pepper spray.413    Don't tell me that the motivation for immigration crackdown414is public safety when we release these violent criminals back415into our communities.416    Mr. Chair, as you know, I used to teach immigration law. I417well understand the need for reform, but I do hope that we will418require Executive actions to comply with existing law and turn419our attention to the necessary reforms that is really our420province here in the U.S. Congress.421    With that, I yield back.422    Mr. McClintock. The Chair is now pleased to recognize the423Chair of the House Judiciary Committee, Congressman Jim Jordan424of Ohio.425    Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Chair.426    The Chair is exactly right in his opening statement. On day427one of the Biden Administration, they made a decision, made428three decisions. They said we're no longer going to build the429wall. We're no longer going to have Remain in Mexico. When you430get to our border, you will not be detained. You will be431released. Guess what? Everybody came.432    It was deliberate. It was intentional. It was premed--they433did it to the country, and now it's time to fix that, as the434Chair pointed out. Think about it. What they said was no wait,435no wall, and no detention. Everybody came. We shouldn't be436surprised. Who wouldn't want to come to the greatest country437ever? You've got to do it legally. That's the problem.438    So, yesterday, the President started what the American439people said to do on November 5th. He started with those 11440Executive Orders that the Chair talked about.441    This hearing is to highlight what took place over the last442four years and what we have to do to fix the problem the443American people elected us to fix.444    So, I appreciate the good work our Chair has done over445these last several years, the good work he did on H.R. 2, the446work he's doing with this key Subcommittee on this key issue.447This is critically important.448    Our job, one of our jobs--this is reconciliation. The449public has to understand this is to make sure we have the funds450available to execute and get accomplished the Executive Orders451the administration, the President put in place over the last 24452hours.453    So, that's our task, and I appreciate, again, the work of454this Committee, our staff, and our great Chair of this key455Subcom-mittee.456    With that, I yield back.457    Mr. McClintock. The Chair now recognizes the Ranking Member458of the House Judiciary Committee, Mr. Jamie Raskin of Maryland,459for an opening statement.460    Mr. Raskin. Thank you, Mr. Chair.461    The Chair began by saying the point here is to restore the462rule of law. Restore the rule of law. Can you even pretend to463do that if you stand by and support Donald Trump who on day464one, as the Chair of the Committee just said, day one of his465presidency pardoned 1,500 insurrectionists, including hundreds466of people who violently assaulted and attacked American police467officers?468    Let's just take one person who is free today. Julian469Khater, who had been convicted after having every due process470protection, the right to counsel, the right to cross-examine471witnesses, and the right to introduce evidence. They had him472completely. They knew exactly what happened. Most of this was473videotaped so the whole world could see it.474    Well, Julian Khater repeatedly, violently, assaulted our475officer protecting us in Congress, Officer Brian Sicknick, who476then proceeded to have several strokes and died on January 7,4772021, the next day. The family of Officer Sicknick is478absolutely devastated and demolished by what just happened.479    I invite any of my colleagues, including the Members new to480this Committee who maybe weren't here on January 6th and didn't481experience the trauma of that violent insurrection when we saw482a mob marauding through here yelling, ``Hang Mike Pence. Hang483Mike Pence.'' Looking to assassinate Nancy Pelosi.484    Now you have the temerity to come forward and say this is485about public safety? How much safer are we now with these 1,500486criminals at-large in Washington, DC, and going out into the487country? Are you vouching that these people are not going to be488attacking any other police officers? Are you vouching that they489are no longer a threat to public safety? What an outrage. What490a scandal.491    Well, the hearing has been called not on trying to deal492with the public safety crisis created by the President on day493one of his presidency but on immigration.494    Now, time and again Democrats have reached across the aisle495to fix our immigration system by finding common ground through496compromise. We did it in 1986, with a Democratic-led House and497a Republican-led Senate when we passed the immigration reform498signed into law by President Reagan four decades ago.499    In 2013, under President Obama, Democrats worked with500Senate Republicans on a sweeping immigration reform bill only501to have House Republicans kill it because it threatened Speaker502Boehner's grip on power.503    Last year, under President Biden, Democrats worked with504Republican Senator Lankford to produce a tough border security505deal with increased border patrol, with increased border506technology and with increased asylum judges to the border.507President Trump and House Republicans openly and aggressively508tanked the deal. They sank the ship, openly rejecting a509bipartisan border agreement held by the most conservative510Republicans in the Senate because they preferred to have a511security crisis to run on than an actual border solution.512    Yet, as Democrats, we stand ready again to work with our513colleagues to fix the broken immigration system. Today unlawful514crossings at the border are much lower than they were when515President Trump left office. We made progress.516    Now is the time for us to tackle the daunting task of517finding compromise and pragmatic solutions to fix the system518that has not been updated in decades, a system that relegates519millions of people to the shadows and leaves other people in520limbo.521    Let's secure the border. Let's make it a lot harder to get522into America illegally and a lot easier to get into America523lawfully. That's what America wants to see. Let's not use524immigration to destroy our Constitution.525    Unbelievable that a lot of my friends on the other side of526the aisle are sitting by idly while Donald Trump proposes by527Executive Order to destroy Section 1 of the 14th Amendment,528which establishes that everybody born in the United States is a529citizen of the United States. Yet, they just let that go.530    All these originalists and textualists claim to care about531what the Constitution stands for, that was the whole purpose532and meaning of the 14th Amendment. Now, they want to destroy533birth right citizenship in America, moving to a citizenship534based on race instead of a citizenship based on place, which535was the whole purpose of the 14th Amendment, to overturn the536Dred Scott decision.537    Well, we're, obviously, going to have some differences538moving forward because they don't want real solutions. They539just want to demagogue the immigration issue. That doesn't move540America forward.541    It's just like they demagogued the issue of inflation. They542said they were going to bring down prices in rent, utilities,543and energy cost. They said they were going to bring down the544price of groceries. Not a single peep from them about that on545day one. No, it's just about releasing all the violent546insurrectionists, the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers who are547out there today saying that they want revenge. Well, that's the548real program for America.549    Let's hear what their specific proposals are about550immigration. If they make sense, then we will get behind them.551If it's just more demagoguery, Mr. Chair, I'm afraid we're552going to have to let it pass.553    Thank you. I yield back.554    Mr. McClintock. I thank the gentleman for reminding all of555us why the people voted as they did on November 5th.556    The Chair would now ask for unanimous consent that the557gentleman from Washington, Mr. Baumgartner, be permitted to sit558on the dais for this hearing.559    Without objection, so ordered. Without objection, all other560opening statements will be included in the record.561    We'll now introduce today's witnesses. We have with us562today, no stranger to this Subcommittee, Mr. John Fabbricatore.563Mr. Fabbricatore is a visiting fellow at The Heritage564Foundation.565    For what purpose does the gentlewoman--566    Ms. Lofgren. I just wanted to confirm that the Member567sitting in can only ask questions if he's yielded time. Isn't568that our rule?569    Mr. McClintock. That's the rule.570    Ms. Lofgren. OK. Thank you very much. I'm sorry to571interrupt.572    Mr. McClintock. Mr. John Fabbricatore is a visiting fellow573at The Heritage Foundation and an advisory board member with574the National Immigration Center for Enforcement. Mr.575Fabbricatore started with the Immigration and Naturalization576Service in 1998. He retired from the U.S. Immigration and577Customs Enforcement in 2022. He served in many different578positions, including Deputy Field Office Director for U.S.579Immigration and Customs Enforcement in the Denver, Colorado,580area of responsibility before being promoted to Field Office581Director in 2020.582    Mr. Grant Newman is the Director of Government Relations583for the Immigration Accountability Project, a nonpartisan584organization that analyzes current and proposed Federal585immigration policies to educate the public and hold elected586officials accountable to their oath and to defend the United587States and its citizens. Mr. Newman has worked in immigration588policy since 2012, most recently at NumbersUSA Education and589Research Foundation. He received a Bachelor of Arts in590political science from Christopher Newport University and his591Juris Doctorate from Regent University School of Law.592    Mr. David Bier is the Director of Immigration Studies at593the Cato Institute. He has a B.A. in political science from594Grove City College in Pennsylvania.595    Finally, we have Ms. Jessica Vaughn. She is the Director of596Policy Studies for the Center on Immigration Studies. Her area597of expertise is immigration policy and operations, covering598topics such as unaccompanied alien children, visa programs,599immigration benefits, and immigration enforcement. Ms. Vaughn600has a Master's Degree from Georgetown University and a601Bachelor's Degree from Washington College in Maryland.602    I want to welcome our witnesses, thank them for appearing603today.604    We'll begin by swearing you in. Would you please rise and605raise your right hand.606    Do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the607testimony you're about to give is true and correct to the best608of your knowledge, information, and belief so help you God?609    Let the record reflect the witnesses have answered in the610affirmative.611    You may be seated.612    Please know your written testimony will be entered into the613record in its entirety. Accordingly, we ask that you summarize614your testimony in five minutes.615    We will begin with Mr. Fabbricatore.616617                 STATEMENT OF JOHN FABBRICATORE618619    Mr. Fabbricatore. Thank you, sir.620    Mr. McClintock. Turn on your microphone.621    Mr. Fabbricatore. Good morning, Chair McClintock and622Congresswoman Lofgren and distinguished Members of the623Subcommittee.624    Thank you for the privilege of appearing before you today625to discuss the urgent need to address dangerous sanctuary626jurisdictions, improve interior immigration enforcement, and627recommit to policies that protect American citizens.628    Over the past four years, the erosion of immigration629enforcement has had devastating consequences for our630communities. Sanctuary policies, the abuse of prosecutorial631discretion, and overwhelmed court dockets have created a system632that shields criminal aliens and jeopardizes public safety.633    I want to emphasize one key point today. Weak border and634immigration enforcement policies have allowed unvetted and635dangerous criminal illegal aliens to enter and thrive within636our borders, leaving Americans at risk.637    Such is the case involving a Venezuelan criminal alien who638crossed illegally in El Paso, Texas, and was released into the639U.S. in 2023. He was charged with raping a 14-year-old girl640while he was living in his employer's basement in Colorado. He641had been arrested previously for possessing tools for forgery,642counterfeiting, and larceny but was released without notifying643ICE.644    Sanctuary jurisdictions claim to protect immigrant645communities, but they do the opposite. They shelter criminal646aliens, accommodating and increasing crimes like drug647trafficking, violent assaults, and human trafficking.648    One stark example is the Tren de Aragua gang. This violent649group infiltrated Colorado where their crimes ranged from650jewelry store robberies to deadly shootings.651    I witnessed the aftermath firsthand in Aurora, Colorado,652where gang members terrorized an apartment complex. Residents653lived in fear as armed criminals roamed freely, culminating in654horrific violence and murder.655    Despite law enforcement efforts, these issues persist656because sanctuary policies actively hinder the sharing of657information and cooperation with ICE. Sanctuary officials658ignore ICE detainers, release violent offenders back into659communities, and undermine the public trust in the justice660system.661    A mother and her teenage son were killed by an illegal662alien and repeat DUI offender in Colorado last December. They663are just one of the many tragic consequences of this leniency.664    The ICE data underscores the crisis. Nearly 7.8 million665illegal aliens are on the nondetained docket freely roaming666American communities, including 1.4 million with final orders667of removal and even 13,000 individuals convicted of murder. Not668only that, the dismissal of 700,000 immigration cases and669administrative failures and another 200,000 cases are examples670of the prior administration's opposition to enforcing671immigration laws.672    The spread of criminal networks is also alarming. Cartels673like Sinaloa and Jalisco exploit sanctuary policies that flood674our communities with fentanyl and other lethal illegal drugs.675Last year alone law enforcement seized more than 115 million676fentanyl pills. Yet, availability remains unchanged, showing677that these cartels continue to operate with impunity.678    We must return to enforcing immigration laws passed by679Congress. This includes:680681    (1) LHolding criminals accountable by reinstating ICE682detainers and ensuring dangerous individuals are detained and683deported.684    (2) LSafeguard American families by dismantling the gangs685and cartels that threaten our neighbors.686    (3) LStrengthen the rule of law by fostering cooperation687between ICE and local law enforcement.688    Unfortunately, the Biden Administration's policies eroded689the effectiveness of interior enforcement. This leniency sent a690dangerous message encouraging illegal crossings while691undermining the tools ICE needs to apprehend and remove692criminal aliens.693    The results are evident in the tragic rise of fentanyl694deaths, human trafficking, and violent crime linked to foreign695borne cartels and gangs. Reversing these policies is not just696an option. It's a necessity. We must empower ICE, restore697cooperation with State and local enforcement, and invest in the698resources that prioritize U.S. citizen's safety and well-being.699    Members of Congress, our communities' safety and our700Nation's stability depend on decisive action. Your top priority701right now should be delivering the resources needed to assist702the Trump Administration in arresting, detaining, and removing703illegal aliens. I urge you to preempt sanctuary policies and704reinstate effective interior enforcement tools so that we can705turn this vision into reality.706    Thank you for your time, and I welcome any questions you707have.708    [The prepared statement of Mr. Fabbricatore follows:]709710    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]711712    Mr. McClintock. Thank you for your testimony.713    The Chair is now pleased to recognize Mr. Grant Newman for714five minutes.715716                   STATEMENT OF GRANT NEWMAN717718    Mr. Newman. Chair McClintock, Ranking Member Jayapal, and719the Members of the Subcommittee--I'm sorry--Congresswoman720Lofgren, thank you for holding this important hearing at a721pivotal moment for immigration enforcement.722    Through action and inaction, the Biden Administration723invited the border crisis of the past four years, and the world724was listening.725    During the first four years of the Trump Administration,726the CBP encountered just over three million inadmissible aliens727nationwide. By comparison of the Biden Administration, CBP728encountered nearly 11 million inadmissible aliens.729    In addition to implementing mass catch and release of730illegal aliens with notices to appear and report, the Biden731Administration illegally initiated the systematic processing of732inadmissible aliens into the United States under the guise of733humanitarian parole and issued them all open market employment734authorization.735    Under the CHNV program, more than 531,000 otherwise736inadmissible aliens from Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, and Venezuela737received permission to fly over the border to American airports738and disappear into the country's interior and from border739enforcement statistics. It ended on Monday.740    Under the CBP One app, the administration encouraged741illegal aliens to schedule their illegal entry at ports. Over742two years, more than 936,000 aliens did just that. It also743ended Monday.744    Despite the law only allowing parole on a case-by-case745basis for urgent humanitarian reasons or significant public746benefit, the Biden Administration granted categorical parole747and work authorization to more than 1.46 million inadmissible748aliens in those two parole programs alone.749    Restoring integrity to our immigration system needs to750begin with ending the rampant abuse of immigration law.751Clearly, parole abuse is one of the most egregious.752Humanitarian parole cannot continue to be used by753administrations to get around statutory limits all the while754they claim to have made illegal immigration safe and lawful.755    Similarly, endless renewals and redesignations of temporary756protected status have resulted in an eligible population that757could exceed 1.2 million with the Biden Administration making758more than 338,000 eligible in the last nine months alone. Not759only can illegal aliens receive TPS and work authorization, but760we also have countries that have been continuously designated761since the 1990s because of a hurricane.762    Despite our government claiming it's not safe to return763nationals to TPS countries, we continue to grant nonimmigrant764visas with an obligation to return to nationals from every765single one of them. That defies logic. TPS abuse must end.766    On the border, the Remain in Mexico program significantly767reduced illegal entries even though less than 68,000 aliens768were sent back to Mexico over the two years it was fully769implemented. President Trump has rightfully ordered its770reinstatement.771    The truth is that vast majority of illegal aliens are772coming here for economic opportunities. If people understand773they won't get in, they won't come. If their friends, family774members, NGO's, and cartels can credibly promise an easy path775to be released into the United States, they will come and they776have. Perception of the enforcement of immigration law matters777enormously and the statistics show that.778    For those on the interior, the credible threat of removal779has the same effect. If they believe the United States will no780longer turn a blind eye to illegal immigration, illegal aliens781will decide to return home.782    In addition to the reinstatement of Remain in Mexico, the783end of parole, and TPS abuse and mass deportations, expanding784expedited removal, regulations to address asylum fraud, visa785sanctions for countries that won't take back their nationals,786worksite enforcement, safe third country agreements, and the787broad restrictions found in the INA can all be combined to788restore integrity to the immigration system.789    However, the American people can't continue to endure the790whiplash every four years from administrations dramatically791changing immigration enforcement and endless lawsuits. Congress792has plenary power over immigration and an obligation to fix it.793The Laken Riley Act is a helpful step to give State Attorneys794General better tools to respond to lawless administration.795    Reforming and restricting parole, asylum, and the handling796of unaccompanied children is essential. When someone arrives at797the border illegally, the Executive Branch should be limited to798three options: Detain, return, or remove.799    Mandatory E-Verify for all employers can eliminate the job800magnet for illegal immigrants. These solutions were passed by801Congress last year in H.R. 2, the Secure the Border Act.802Congress needs to finish the job.803    Additionally, TPS should be reformed statutorily to prevent804further abuse and endless extensions. Finally, Congress needs805to provide sufficient resources, including ICE ERO officers and806detention beds to carry out interior enforcement.807    Thank you and I look forward to your questions.808    [The prepared statement of Mr. Newman follows:]809810    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]811812    Mr. McClintock. Thank you.813    We'll next hear from Mr. David Bier.814815                   STATEMENT OF DAVID J. BIER816817    Mr. Bier. Chair McClintock, Ranking Member Lofgren, and818distinguished Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the819opportunity to testify.820    For nearly half a century, the Cato Institute has produced821original research showing that a freer, more orderly, and more822lawfully immigration system benefits Americans. Unfortunately,823from January 2017-January 2021, the U.S. immigration system824underwent an assault unlike any in modern history.825    President Trump abused his authority to cut legal826immigration from abroad by nearly 80 percent, refugees by 92827percent. He shut down asylum even for legal crossers. He828stopped enforcing the law. He removed requirements to target829public safety threats in the interior. As a result, he released830twice as many convicted criminals as President Biden. He forced831U.S. Attorneys to prioritize misdemeanor family separation832prosecutions of parents over sex offenders.833    By the time President Biden took office, the U.S.834immigration system was in shambles: Immigration courts,835consulates, and ports of entry all shuttered. Even detention836centers were at half capacity. Many border patrol agents were837assigned away from the border. Human trafficking investigators838were working on low-level visa overstay cases.839    In December 2020, border patrol arrests were at the highest840level for any December back to 1999. Evasions of border patrol841were 75 percent higher than when President Trump entered842office. Border patrol was told not to impose consequences on843crossers beyond expelling them to Mexico under Title 42 of the844health code.845    A decade of progress deterring criminals from crossing846reversed. Encounters with convicted criminals tripped under the847Trump Administration. President Trump cut legal immigration. He848increased illegal immigration especially by criminals.849    After this four-year sabotage, President Biden had to850rebuild the immigration system from scratch. I criticized851Biden's effort, but the fact is that it was always going to852take time to undo this absolute disaster with no help from853Congress and active obstruction by the States.854    He reprioritized public safety threats in the interior and855cut releases of convicted criminals from detention in half. He856refocused on border security, doubling detention, removing857three times as many border crossers as President Trump.858    It was fixing legal immigration that contributed to ending859the crisis. Biden restored visa and refugee processing to above8602016 levels. Biden also deregulated the parole process to open861this lawful pathway to allow asylum seekers to enter in a862lawful and orderly way. Biden's approach was working.863    Yes, overall crossings increased during the economic864recovery, but border patrol encounters were down 33 percent in865Biden's final months compared to Trump's final months. Criminal866crossings had fallen 57 percent. Evasions of border patrol were867down 42 percent, falling immediately after President Biden868reversed Trump's expulsion to Mexico policy.869    For the first time ever, most immigrants coming to the U.S.870border were applying to enter legally through a regulated and871screened lawful pathway.872    The new administration is already undoing all the progress.873The slough of new Executive Orders mandate violations of the874U.S. Constitution, target peaceful people over violent felons,875and, by limiting legal immigration, encouraged illegal876immigration.877    The President has ordered violations of the Constitution's87814th Amendment, denying the legitimacy of millions of Americans879their citizenship and threatening to deport babies born in880America. He's threatening to use the military to arrest,881detain, and remove people without proving to courts they are882removable.883    His orders explicitly declare that he is above U.S. law,884and he asserts he can ignore any immigration law that you,885Members of Congress, write.886    The President may have joked he wanted to be a dictator for887a day, but he is not one. You, Congress, should defend your888powers and the U.S. Constitution and our rights before they are889gone. America's immigrants are with you. They come because890America is the land of the free. Let's keep it that way.891    Thank you.892    [The prepared statement of Mr. Bier follows:]893894    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]895896    Mr. McClintock. Thank you.897    We'll finally hear from Ms. Jessica Vaughn.898899                 STATEMENT OF JESSICA M. VAUGHN900901    Ms. Vaughn. Thank you. I appreciate the chance to focus902today on the most important things that Congress should do to903restore immigration enforcement and integrity in our904immigration law, the areas of the law that need to be updated.905    The Border Security Act of 2023 or H.R. 2 was a great906start, but more is needed to close loopholes and abuses and to907fix the things in the law that just do not work and to address908new challenges.909    I particularly want to focus on problems with certain visa910and benefit programs. One problem is fraud. Fraud is often911overlooked in discussions of immigration enforcement, but it912really is another form of illegal immigration. Past reports913have identified double digit fraud in certain benefit programs,914but most have never been studied or assessed for the prevalence915of fraud. Congress needs to demand some investigation into916these programs, audits and benefit fraud assessments to find917out just how prevalent it is.918    An even bigger problem is that over time, our immigration919law has become a massive, disorganized menu of entry and work920permit programs, some created by Congress, some not, that921operate almost on autopilot. In the hands of an administration922like the previous one that wanted no limits on immigration, any923integrity guardrails were dismantled, and these programs have924now ballooned in size.925    In some cases, the rules themselves do not allow for926meaningful controls. Some of these programs simply need to be927shut down.928    Before I talk about that, I just want to endorse the929comments made by my fellow panelist on the need to address930sanctuaries, which are a major public safety threat and931undermine the integrity of immigration laws.932    I also want to mention that it's important to allow for a933role for State and local officials in restoring integrity of934our immigration programs and in enforcement. In some of the935programs that I'm going to talk about, the States are really a936gatekeeper to some of these programs, and so they have a stake937in how they are run.938    Enforcement is not just a matter of imposing consequences939on those who break the law. We need to be more prudent in940administering visa and green card programs to reduce941opportunities for abuse either by unqualified applicants or by942an administration that imposes limits on immigration.943    Visa overstaying is a chronic problem. More than 565,000944people overstayed their visa or visa waiver in 2023, and the945State Department has done nothing but let this problem get946worse in the last few years.947    Besides lenient entry programs, our immigration system948offers too many opportunities for people to prolong their stay949and obtain work permits whether through long-term pretend950temporary status or in programs that are abridged to green951cards and citizenship. I'm referring to programs like TPS, OPT,952the Special Immigrant Juvenile program, and the U and T visa953programs for crime victims.954    All these are loosely regulated and attract large numbers955of fraudulent and frivolous applications. All of them have956ballooned in size to historic numbers of applicants in the last957four years. Collectively, these number at least a million and a958half and maybe as many as two million people, and that exceeds959the size of all the other guest worker programs combined.960    For example, the OPT programs were never authorized by961Congress but allow hundreds of thousands of foreign students962and foreign grads of U.S. schools or fake schools to get a work963permit. The U and T visas for crime victims have proven to be964mostly ineffective in helping prosecute crimes and need to be965replaced with a more tightly managed deferred action program966that suits the needs of law enforcement agencies.967    Similarly, the Special Immigrant Juvenile program, which968was sold as a humanitarian benefit for trafficked kids in need969of protection has become amnesty program for young adults whose970claims of abandonment or abuse are often not subject to971thorough examination. The availability of this benefit, which972has few controls or standards, creates demand that gets larger973and larger every year.974    These are just a few examples of things that can be fixed975by Congress and that I hope you will take up in this next976session.977    Thank you.978    [The prepared statement of Ms. Vaughn follows:]979980   [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]981982    Mr. McClintock. I want to thank you all for your983testimoneys.984    We'll now proceed to the questions under the five-minute985rule, and we'll begin with Mr. Biggs of Arizona.986    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chair.987    It is ludicrous for the Ranking Member of the Subcommittee988to make the argument that millions of illegal aliens who989crossed into the country during the Biden Administration990invaded the country because the immigration system is, quote,991``broken.''992    The fact is these individuals came because of Biden's open993border policy. No fence, no detention, no removal, and,994frankly, no enforcement. That's what happened.995    It is rich to decry the pardons of President Trump yet fail996to even insult, discuss, address places like San Diego, which997have just become a super sanctuary city, or the California998State itself with its sanctuary policies.999    I submit for the record a story about a sanctuary city1000dweller suffering sexual battery, stranger rapes, and murders1001at the hands of illegal aliens in California.1002    Mr. McClintock. Without objection.1003    Mr. Biggs. It is almost silly to say that the Senate plan,1004which would have allowed 7,500 people a day into the country1005before the President had to take any Executive action at all1006would have been a panacea Biden's failed policies.1007    It is unique and, perhaps, we're fortunate that an1008individual, as the Ranking Member of the entire Committee, is1009able to condemn pardons, Presidential Pardons as the only1010person that I know of on this dais who has actually received a1011Presidential Pardon for his actions.1012    The Wong Kim Ark case, which basically addressed birth1013right citizenship, was given because somebody was a permanent1014legal resident, not illegal aliens who have a child in this1015country. When this gets to the Supreme Court, they are going to1016rule that way, and I'll be right, unlike Mr. Bier who made his1017prediction on President Trump's policies when the Supreme Court1018upheld his policies.1019    To say that the country's border was in shambles when1020President Trump was there is ludicrous. Apparently, not looking1021at any of the numbers, such as in Yuma, in Yuma the entire last1022year the numbers were about 8,600 I believe it was. That was1023the total encounters when it was not unusual under the Biden1024Administration to have 8,600 encounters in a weekend. Ludicrous1025argument, specious.1026    The numbers came down. Why did they come down? Because you1027didn't count people who were applying under CBP One app. You1028didn't count people who were getting the CHNV program. So, if1029you're not counting everybody, well, of course, the numbers1030come down. That's where we sat here today.1031    The law is this, Mr. Fabbricatore. An asylum requestor is1032required to remain in custody until that asylum request is1033adjudicated. Is that not true?1034    Mr. Fabbricatore. Absolutely, sir. That's the way it should1035be.1036    Mr. Biggs. Well, not just what it should be. That's the1037law.1038    Mr. Fabbricatore. The way the law is written. Yes, sir.1039    Mr. Biggs. No administration has been successful in doing1040that because there is a massive number of asylum requests.1041    Mr. Fabbricatore. Correct.1042    Mr. Biggs. Under this administration, how many asylum1043requestors have been released into the country?1044    Mr. Fabbricatore. Too many, sir. They're just released into1045the country and not put into detention as they should be.1046    Mr. Biggs. If they were actually detained by the way the1047law requires and which President Trump says he wants to do, he1048wants to enforce the law, what does that do to incentives to1049come into this country illegally?1050    Mr. Fabbricatore. It magnetizes it. It just forces people1051to come in because they know they're not going to go into1052detention. They know they're going to get released into the1053interior of the U.S.1054    Mr. Biggs. If you're not detaining them, that's the magnet.1055    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes.1056    Mr. Biggs. If you do detain them, it becomes a deterrent.1057    Mr. Fabbricatore. It becomes a deterrent. If we put1058detention back into action and we say we're going to detain you1059when you are asking, that's going to be a deterrent.1060    Mr. Biggs. If you remove people, like you have 1.4 million1061who are actively in the country with removal orders, that1062doesn't count all the 500,000 plus criminal individuals. That1063is just the 1.4 who have had due process.1064    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes.1065    Mr. Biggs. If you begin removing people, what does that do1066as a deterrent or a magnet?1067    Mr. Fabbricatore. Again, it deters people from coming.1068Look, the biggest problem with this is they broke into the1069country. They entered illegally. They had an opportunity to see1070an immigration judge. That immigration judge ordered them1071deported, and they still did not leave the United States. So,1072compounding just breaking our laws even doubly so by not even1073listening to what the immigration judge had to say.1074    Mr. Biggs. Thank you.1075    Mr. Chair, my time has expired, but may I put some articles1076in for--1077    Mr. McClintock. Under unanimous consent request?1078    Mr. Biggs. Yes. Thank you.1079    An article: ``What Democrats Must Learn from Biden's1080Disastrous Immigration Record,'' ``Dems Finally Admit Biden1081Botched the Border after 2024 Election Loss. We Destroyed1082Ourselves.'' This one without a title by CNN Politics. Then1083this one. Sorry. I marked all over the back of it. I apologize1084for that, ``Quantifying Why Democrats Support Open Borders.''1085    I will submit additional UCs without reading them regarding1086sanctuary cities and the release of violent criminals into the1087community. I have probably 50 or more articles I will submit1088for the record, sir.1089    Mr. McClintock. Without objection.1090    The gentleman's time has expired. The Chair recognizes Ms.1091Lofgren for five minutes.1092    Ms. Lofgren. Thank you, Mr. Chair.1093    All of us acknowledge that the asylum system broke down.1094The system was overwhelmed, and I think it's worth noting that1095a majority of those who sought asylum in immigration court lost1096their asylum case. So, clearly, people who are not eligible for1097asylum were admitted to the United States.1098    Now, why is that a problem in the law? Well, Section 208(a)1099says this. This is a law that Congress wrote:11001101        Any alien who is physically present in the United States or who1102        arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated1103        port of arrival, and including an alien who is brought to the1104        United States after having been interdicted in international or1105        U.S. waters) irrespective of such alien status may apply for1106        asylum.11071108That's what the law that we wrote, and people responded to it1109and in such numbers that the system broke down.1110    We have never provided enough money to detain everybody who1111is seeking asylum. Not during the first Trump Administration,1112not during Biden, and not now. I think we need to address this1113issue in addition to other elements of immigration law that are1114not functioning properly.1115    Mr. Bier, 208(a)(1) provides this really expansive1116opportunity for people to come and apply. It broke down. Now1117Trump has tried to use 212(f) of the Act, basically, to1118override the law. My recollection is that when he tried that1119before, he lost in court.1120    Can you enlighten us on that?1121    Mr. Bier. Yes, that's right. The 212(f) is about limiting1122the entry of people. The 208(a) is about asylum. It's about1123applying for a benefit in the United States for people who are1124already present in the country. So, 212(f) does not override1125the asylum law that you all wrote, explicitly allowing people1126to enter regardless of how they entered the country.1127    Ms. Lofgren. So, the law is such that if you come in1128between the ports of entry saying, surreptitiously, you're1129President of the U.S., 208(a) allows you to apply, correct?1130    Mr. Bier. That's right. It doesn't matter about the manner1131of the status that you have. You can apply for asylum.1132    Ms. Lofgren. For one, I think Congress ought to revisit1133that, and I think it's very clear the system has not worked and1134that we ought to have a different--asylum is important. There1135are some people who are seeking refuge.1136    Asylum was adopted by all civilized countries after World1137War II, and there is an infamous case of Jews escaping Germany1138who were refused entry into the United States, and by Canada.1139They were sent back to Germany, and most of them were killed in1140concentration camps. Most civilized countries adopted asylum1141rules subsequent to that war.1142    That's important, but it's important also that it's for1143asylees, not people who are seeking economic opportunity. I1144don't dislike or hate someone seeking economic opportunities,1145but they are not asylees.1146    So, we need Congress itself needs to address this issue,1147put some order so that we can have order at the border. Then,1148if we have a need for people who are meeting economic needs in1149this country, there needs to be a more orderly way to deal with1150that as well.1151    Let me just quickly ask you, if you can, it was an1152assertion that the 14th Amendment doesn't mean what it says.1153Can you address the 14th Amendment question for us, Mr. Bier?1154    Mr. Bier. Yes. So, the 14th Amendment says anyone born and1155subject to the--born in the United States and subject to the1156jurisdiction of the United States is a U.S. citizen. The1157subject to--what the Executive Order says is that all these1158people who are children of guest workers or children of people1159without legal permanent resident status or citizenship are not1160subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, which is1161flatly absurd. That would mean they weren't here illegally.1162That would mean they're not subject to U.S. law like a diplomat1163who has diplomatic immunity.1164    Obviously, they didn't think through the implications of1165making that kind of declaration. It's totally out of line with1166everything, all other Constitutional interpretation.1167    Ms. Lofgren. Thank you, Mr. Bier.1168    My time has just about expired. So, I'll yield back, Mr.1169Chair.1170    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Tiffany.1171    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Mr. Chair.1172    Mr. Bier, what year was the 14th Amendment ratified?1173    Mr. Bier. In the 1860s.1174    Mr. Tiffany. In 1868, Doesn't that sound correct? That was1175after which war?1176    Mr. Bier. The civil war.1177    Mr. Tiffany. Which was done to end slavery, preserve the1178union and end slavery, right?1179    Mr. Bier. Correct.1180    Mr. Tiffany. Yes. Did the American immigration system1181become better under the Biden Administration?1182    Mr. Bier. It improved, yes.1183    Mr. Tiffany. The immigration system in America became1184better during the Biden years?1185    Mr. Bier. Correct.1186    Mr. Tiffany. Ms. Vaughn, is the Secretary of the State1187required to halt visas for recalcitrant countries?1188    Ms. Vaughn. They are not required to. They have the1189authority to do that if they get a request from the Department1190of Homeland Security to do so because a country will not take1191their citizens back or doesn't cooperate in getting travel1192documents to return them after deportation.1193    Mr. Tiffany. Are there countries like that that are1194recalcitrant?1195    Ms. Vaughn. Yes, there are quite a few.1196    Mr. Tiffany. Name a couple of the worst offenders.1197    Ms. Vaughn. Cuba, Venezuela, China, India and Bangladesh1198don't always concentrate. Iran.1199    Mr. Tiffany. Has the State Department over the last few1200years done its job to stop those recalcitrant countries from1201dumping criminals into our country and then not taking them1202back?1203    Ms. Vaughn. No. The State Department historically has been1204very reluctant to use visa sanctions to impose consequences on1205countries that are not fulfilling their international1206obligation to take their citizens back.1207    Mr. Tiffany. So, should we be going to the administration1208and Secretary Rubio and insisting that they do that, or should1209we make a law change?1210    Ms. Vaughn. Well, I think it would help to make a law1211change to say that the Secretary must act in certain situations1212as defined by Congress to address recalcitrant countries and1213give even more tools besides visa sanctions, like potentially1214withholding foreign assistance or other diplomatic tools to1215require the Secretary to do so.1216    It may be that Secretary Rubio would want to do that, but1217there are not always going to be administrations that want to1218push this issue. So, if Congress changes the law, then they1219will have that obligation.1220    Mr. Tiffany. So, you would suggest we should make it a1221requirement?1222    Ms. Vaughn. Yes.1223    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Newman, in regard to categorical parole,1224the Mariana Island, the CNMI, they have a program like that1225where there is no visa needed for people to be able to come in.1226Isn't that a version of birth right citizenship?1227    Mr. Newman. Yes. As I understand, it's become a major1228issue, birth tourism in CNMI. People just basically coming in1229to get U.S. citizenship.1230    Mr. Tiffany. So, you have Chinese nationals coming into1231this territory, and they're able to have a child there, and the1232child becomes a citizen.1233    Mr. Newman. Yes, it's absurd. It shouldn't exist in a1234modern civilization.1235    Mr. Tiffany. Doesn't that seem like that could be a1236national security threat with all we know about Communist1237China?1238    Mr. Newman. Absolutely.1239    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Chair, I ask unanimous consent to enter1240into the record an article from The Wall Street Journal on1241December 22, 2017, in regard to this issue.1242    Mr. McClintock. Without objection.1243    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Fabbricatore--I hope I got your name right1244there. Can I just--some people just call you Fab, don't they?1245    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, sir.1246    Mr. Tiffany. So, we know all about the NGO's, including1247like the international organization for migration, IOM, which I1248saw when I was down in Panama four years ago and saw them1249processing people in. Don't they significant amounts of money1250from the taxpayers of the United States?1251    Mr. Fabbricatore. They absolutely do, sir. They get a huge1252amount of money.1253    Mr. Tiffany. Do you have any ideas? Is it tens of millions?1254    Mr. Fabbricatore. It's in the tens of millions. Yes, higher1255than tens of millions.1256    Mr. Tiffany. They've been a vital link, haven't they, in1257this whole process of illegal immigration into America. We talk1258about the cartels and the horrible things that they do, but1259don't those NGO's also serve as a--haven't they served as a1260vital link over the last four years of being able to bring1261people illegally into America?1262    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, sir. They have aided in helping1263illegal immigration enter into the United States.1264    Mr. Tiffany. Should we pull the money back from those1265organizations that have assisted in illegal immigration?1266    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, we should pull it back and use that1267money to help us with our deportation process.1268    Mr. Tiffany. If we're not able to pull that money back,1269should we reverse--have them help us reverse the flow and,1270perhaps, turn them into repatriation centers?1271    Mr. Fabbricatore. That sounds like it would be the right1272thing to do, sir.1273    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Chair, the era of America last is over, as1274you said in your opening remarks, and it's time to enforce the1275laws here in the United States of America.1276    I yield back.1277    Mr. McClintock. You'll get no argument from me on that1278point, Mr. Tiffany.1279    The Chair now recognizes Mr. Raskin for five minutes.1280    Mr. Raskin. Thank you, Congress--Chair.1281    Mr. Bier, to be clear, you're with the Cato Institute,1282which my Republican colleagues generally love and are always1283quoting you and talking about you whenever we're talking about1284budget or fiscal affairs, or so on. They don't like what you're1285saying about immigration today, and they certainly don't like1286your message, although I think they were completely stymied and1287flabbergasted when you said that things had improved marginally1288under President Biden but had gone way South under Donald1289Trump. Explain why immigration policy was such a nightmare in1290the first Trump Administration.1291    Mr. Bier. We basically didn't have an immigration system by1292the end of the Trump Administration. He basically banned all1293immigration--legal immigration from abroad. Refugees down 921294percent. Immigrant visas down 78 percent. Nonimmigrant visas1295down 80 percent. We basically didn't have an immigration system1296available to people at the end of the Trump Administration. If1297you look at what happened with convicted criminals crossing the1298border, the lack of focus on prioritization of convicted1299criminals in the interior, yes, the immigration system under1300the Trump Administration led to a disaster, and ultimately it1301took four years, but the Biden Administration improved things1302significantly from the end of the Trump Administration.1303    Mr. Raskin. So, the new Trump Administration inherits a1304situation that's better in terms of unlawful crossings. What is1305going to be the effect of all these Executive Orders at this1306point? It seems almost like they're calculated to produce more1307chaos.1308    Mr. Bier. Absolutely. He's trying to get rid of the legal1309channels by which people come into the country. He got rid of1310the refugee programs day one. He got rid of the parole1311processes that allow people to enter legally on day one. He1312said we're not going to do any kind of asylum even for people1313who are entering the country legally. If you do that, what's1314the alternative? It's illegal immigration. Really, as long as1315we have illegal immigration, it's going to be a major touch1316point politically.1317    Mr. Raskin. All right. So, let's say that he actually turns1318the whole country into chaos by trying to deport 12 million1319people, as he's promised; what would the economic effect of1320that be? I ask because I get businesspeople coming to my office1321all the time from the hotel sector, the construction sector,1322seafood, and from agriculture saying there aren't enough people1323to do the work now. What would happen if we deported 12 million1324people?1325    Mr. Bier. Right. It would be a blow to the economy similar1326to the great recession in size, $2 trillion blow to the GDP on1327an annual basis. You're talking about a massive blow to the1328budget. The Congressional Budget Office estimates that deficits1329will be lower by a trillion dollars as a result of the1330immigrant workers that are working in the United States in1331these industries.1332    Many American workers depend on the workers that we're1333talking about. In construction, you have two million Americans1334who are working in specialized positions and as managers and1335supervisors of illegal immigrant workers who are doing the1336tough manual labor jobs at the low end, so there's a1337complementarity between the U.S. workforce and the immigrant1338workforce.1339    Mr. Raskin. Most violent criminals are not undocumented1340immigrants. Most undocumented immigrants are not violent1341criminals. What would it do to our efforts to actually fight1342real violent crime and gun-based crime in America, the AR-15s,1343the illegal traffic in guns, if we diverted Federal, State, and1344local law enforcement just to deporting people who have not1345committed any crimes at all?1346    Mr. Bier. Look, we already don't solve 50 percent of1347murders in the United States; 75 percent of sexual assaults go1348unsolved. If you look at property crime, it's almost like we're1349not trying. We need to focus on serious crimes in this country.1350We have a crime problem. I completely agree with that.1351Diverting State and local police in particular away from1352getting justice for victims is a terrible idea for the country.1353It will not produce safety.1354    Mr. Raskin. Yes. Do you think it's a step on behalf of law1355and order to release en masse violent criminals who attacked1356the U.S. Government to interrupt the joint session of Congress1357and the peaceful transfer of power in America?1358    Mr. Bier. I think people who commit violent crime should1359have to serve their sentences and be punished accordingly.1360    Mr. Raskin. That was actually the position I think taken by1361our distinguished colleague Mr. Jordan from Ohio who repeatedly1362distinguished been violent and nonviolent offenders. I'd like1363to ask unanimous consent to enter in the record a CNN article1364in which Chair Jordan was quoted as, ``being hesitant about the1365sweeping pardons and saying that they basically should be1366focused on people who had committed nonviolent rather than1367violent offenses.''1368    Mr. McClintock. Without objection.1369    Mr. Raskin. Finally, what should we be doing now to fix the1370immigration system?1371    Mr. Bier. Anyone could design a better legal immigration1372system than the one that we actually have. We need Congress to1373sit down and do their job and say, look, if we want people who1374come, who can support themselves, who can contribute to this1375country, there's a way to do it. It's not rocket science. You1376can write a law that says you have to come and be able to1377support yourself and contribute to the economy. We have bills1378that have done this in the past. We just need to pick them up1379and start that work again.1380    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman's time has expired. Chair1381Jordan.1382    Chair Jordan. Mr. Newman, did the Biden Administration1383improve the immigration system and border security?1384    Mr. Newman. I think the stats show no. We've got--1385    Chair Jordan. That whole conversation that just took place1386sounded like a bunch of nonsense to me.1387    Mr. Newman. Same.1388    Chair Jordan. Certainly, 77 million Americans don't believe1389what they just heard from Mr. Raskin and the Democrat witness.1390    Ms. Vaughn, did the Biden Administration improve the1391immigration system and border security?1392    Ms. Vaughan. No. The Biden Administration dismantled the1393controls, guardrails, limits, and turned programs into purposes1394for which they were never--1395    Chair Jordan. Every community on the border knows they did1396it, yet we just had a five-minute conversation, ``Oh well,1397things are just wonderful. Joe Biden was the greatest''--Mr.1398Fabbricatore, you've been out on the front lines. You've dealt1399with this. Did the Biden Administration improve the immigration1400system and border security?1401    Mr. Fabbricatore. No. We have more illegal alien criminals1402on the street today because of the Biden Administration.1403    Chair Jordan. Yes. They're trying to say, ``Don't believe1404your lying eyes.'' Of course we know it's gotten worse.1405Earlier, Mr. Newman, you said--I think you said the Biden1406Administration invited the crisis. I think you're being nice1407when you use the word ``invited.'' I think they intentionally,1408deliberately--that's in my opening statement--willfully created1409the crisis. I want to know why would they do that? Why would an1410administration deliberately create the chaos we have seen1411upward of 10 million people coming into the country?1412    These border--it's interesting, these border communities,1413that's been the biggest change in voting Democrat to voting1414Republican has taken place in those communities because they1415felt it firsthand. We were in Yuma--Mr. Biggs brought up this.1416We were in Yuma, Arizona. The cost of the education system, the1417healthcare system, the public services in those communities,1418unbelievable. So, why would they intentionally--why would they1419do this? That's what I've been trying to figure out. Why would1420an administration say we're going to deliberately create the1421chaos that 77 million Americans--I think all Americans know has1422taken place over the last four years?1423    Mr. Newman. I can't pretend to know the motive of the1424administration, but what I--1425    Chair Jordan. I'm asking you to hazard a guess, as an1426expert in this area.1427    Mr. Newman. Looking at what they've done and looking at the1428policies, what's very clear is that there has been an1429intentional desire to get as many people into the country as1430possible and keep them here.1431    Chair Jordan. Ms. Vaughn, can you take a run at that1432question? Why would they do it? I think all kinds of Americans1433asked that question. Why would our government do this to our1434Nation?1435    Ms. Vaughan. Because they don't want any limits on1436immigration and because no one could stop them.1437    Chair Jordan. Mr. Fabbricatore.1438    Mr. Fabbricatore. There was a definite open border agenda1439for the last four years, and that is exactly the way that I see1440it.1441    Chair Jordan. You think there's--again, hazard a guess at1442the motivation. What do you think the motivation is?1443    Mr. Fabbricatore. It's hard to guess at allowing so many1444illegal aliens to enter into the United States. It's something1445that, when you actually look at it and you look at the numbers,1446it's unfathomable to even think that this many people were1447allowed--the gotaways, the two million gotaways that were1448allowed in this country that we have no idea who they are. To1449me, I have no idea why they would allow that to happen.1450    Chair Jordan. I don't get it either, particularly when you1451think about what happens to kids on this journey when they come1452to--kind of what happens to women, the terrible things. I don't1453get it. For them to try to say it was wonderful and it was an1454improvement, I don't get that either, because nobody, nobody1455believes that. I think earlier the Ranking Member said the1456asylum system was overwhelmed during the Biden Administration.1457Why was it overwhelmed? Because they just opened everything up.1458No wall. No Remain in Mexico, and, ``When you get here,'' as1459you pointed out in your testimony, Mr. Fabbricatore, ``you1460won't be detained; you'll be released.'' What do we have to do1461to fix it? Mr. Fabbricatore, a guy who is on the front lines.1462What do we have to do to fix it?1463    Mr. Fabbricatore. First, we need to make sure that we're1464giving the money to--especially enforcement removal operations1465to go out and detain, arrest, detain, and remove illegal1466aliens. That's the bottom line of what we have to do. We have1467to say this is a situation that we have; we need to put money1468toward this so that we can be effective.1469    Chair Jordan. Once you start repatriating, once you start1470removing individuals who came here illegally, that's going to1471send a message. That's going to create an incentive in the1472right way, because right now all the incentives are the wrong1473way.1474    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes.1475    Chair Jordan. No wall, no wait, and you won't be detained.1476Everyone comes. You've got to change those incentives. That1477will start to do that.1478    Mr. Fabbricatore. It absolutely will. Letting the men and1479women know of ICE, of ERO, that they have your backing, and1480they can go out on the street and actually enforce the1481immigration law. That's all that they're asking you to do.1482That's what President Trump wants to do.1483    Chair Jordan. Yep.1484    Mr. Fabbricatore. He wants to make sure that we go out, and1485the immigration law is actually enforced.1486    Chair Jordan. Fifteen seconds. Mr. Newman, I'll give you1487the last 15.1488    Mr. Newman. It's that. It's you have to fund--you have to1489fund the resources for ICE to get the job done. You have to1490show to people in this country illegally that you could be1491caught, and you could be sent home.1492    Chair Jordan. This Committee is committed to helping the1493administration have the resources to enforce the law and fix1494the problem.1495    I yield back to the Chair.1496    Mr. McClintock. Ms. Scanlon.1497    Ms. Scanlon. Thank you, Mr. Chair.1498    Just because someone repeats fiction over and over and over1499again doesn't make it true. We all want an immigration system1500that works, a border that is secure, and a country that's safe.1501Our immigration laws are broken and vastly outdated and1502underfunded for the world that we live in today, and that's an1503issue that Congress needs to solve comprehensively and1504responsibly. After taking the oath of office this week, the new1505President signed more than 200 divisive and politically1506motivated Executive actions that don't further that process of1507reforming and fixing our border or our immigration system.1508Included among those orders were several that seemed destined1509to create more chaos in our immigration system and at our1510Southern border--not less. Because these orders aren't1511solutions but political posturing.1512    What do they do? They eliminate pathways that have been1513successfully lowering border crossings. They reinstate failed1514programs of the past. They make it harder to prioritize serious1515national security threats for enforcement. They have blocked1516the resettlement of Afghan allies who have been thoroughly1517vetted and have been waiting years for entry into this country.1518    There's an attempt to overturn the Constitutional right to1519birthright citizenship, which everyone from the ACLU to the1520Catholic Church has condemned as being both unconstitutional1521and inhumane for making those children stateless. These actions1522do not make our country safer, but the new President and his1523allies are so deep in the fiction that they have created with1524their own cynical narrative, one that's designed to sow chaos1525and anger, that they can't acknowledge reality, much less solve1526problems. So, it's not surprising, because these are the same1527people who blocked the bipartisan border security bill that was1528negotiated last year.1529    So, these orders, this is not new behavior. We saw it all1530before during the first Trump Administration when failed and1531inhumane immigration policies weakened our economy, undermined1532our moral standing in the world, and inflicted cruelty on1533children and families. We can never forget that the Trump1534Administration's practice of family separation led by his1535current border czar was condemned as purposeful government1536torture under the Geneva Convention and other international1537human rights standards by organizations, including the American1538Academy of Pediatrics, the American College of Physicians,1539Amnesty International, and faith-based leaders across the1540country and across the political spectrum, and of course none1541of these fix the issues at our border or made us more secure.1542    Now, Mr. Bier, in your statement, you point out that, in1543his first administration, the policies imposed by President1544Trump and his allies actually obliterated--that's your term,1545the immigration system and shredded enforcement. Will the1546Executive Orders that we're seeing now or the proposed policies1547have a different impact just because it's a few years later?1548    Mr. Bier. No. It's going to make the problem worse, because1549right now we have the majority--as I said, a majority of the1550people who are coming to the border right now are applying to1551enter legally through a regulated screened lawful pathway. So,1552getting rid of that is actually going to make the problem1553significantly worse. We didn't have these lawful pathways when1554he entered the last time, so getting rid of all these legal1555channels, getting rid of the refugee program, all these is1556designed to increase illegal immigration. It's sending a1557message around the world that the way to come to the United1558States is to come illegally if you shut down the legal1559channels.1560    Ms. Scanlon. Then, of course, that creates chaos and scenes1561at the border that allow someone to run again and again and1562again on the idea that they alone can fix it.1563    Mr. Bier. Right. If you look at what happened, you see the1564Haitians and the Cubans are a perfect example of this. They for1565decades have entered legally, almost 100 percent across the1566Southwestern border legally to apply for asylum. The Trump1567Administration came along. They shut down the process to people1568at ports of entry, and then they crossed illegally, and we1569created a problem where there was no problem.1570    The Biden Administration came in. They corrected that1571mistake. Now, almost 100 percent of those groups are entering1572legally, or at least they were until the Trump Administration1573took over on January 20th.1574    Ms. Scanlon. I just wanted to turn to one of the current1575paths, and we're hearing a lot about, ``Oh, you have to follow1576the rules, you have to follow the legal path.'' One of the1577Executive Orders or actions that occurred this week was to1578eliminate the app that was allowing immigrants to make an1579appointment to file a legal claim. So, now we have people who1580have been waiting in Mexico for months to get their1581appointment, and suddenly that was wiped out.1582    Mr. McClintock. The gentlelady's time has expired. We'll1583take that as a statement.1584    Mr. Roy. Thank you, Chair. Thank you for holding this1585hearing. Thanks to the witnesses for being here.1586    Mr. Bier, a quick question. Have you visited with or met1587Alexis Nungaray?1588    Mr. Bier. Not to my knowledge.1589    Mr. Roy. You haven't sat down and talked with Alexis1590Nungaray? Alexis Nungaray was my guest at the inauguration1591festivities. She was my guest to one of the balls since she1592wasn't able to attend the inauguration since it was inside.1593Alexis' daughter Jocelyn was murdered last July. Her 13-year-1594old beautiful little girl was murdered by individuals1595associated with TDA, a dangerous gang in Venezuela, who were1596released by this administration. This administration--I should1597say the previous administration, the Biden Administration, the1598one we're referring to.1599    The Biden Administration released these individuals on to1600the streets of Texas, and now Alexis' daughter is no longer1601with us. Alexis chose life when she was a 14-year-old little1602girl. Alexis is only 28 herself now. I was proud to have her1603with me this weekend. She is a testament to the greatness of1604this country. Her parents, her family, migrants themselves,1605they followed the law. They did it the right way because it has1606been possible for years to do it the right way.1607    Ms. Vaughn, is it not correct that we have upwards of three1608million people that are put into the United States every year1609through visas and other programs, student visas, access to1610becoming an LPR, et cetera?1611    Ms. Vaughn. Well, the more than 10 million people who come1612in on nonimmigrant visas and even more than that come in under1613the visa waiver program, and yes, it's a huge entry--1614    Mr. Roy. There is an enormous opportunity to come here1615legally right now, correct?1616    Ms. Vaughan. Yes.1617    Mr. Roy. For student visas and our normal programs in1618immigration.1619    Ms. Vaughan. More than a million immigrant visas, probably1620close to a million people who get temporary visas for various1621purposes as well. We have one of the most generous immigration1622systems in the country.1623    Mr. Roy. One million green cards, a million guest worker1624visas, and a million student visas. Does that sound correct to1625you?1626    Ms. Vaughan. Well, I account the student visas under the1627million--1628    Mr. Roy. Right. My point being, we are the most generous1629country in the world by an order of magnitude, and yet this1630administration has been violently disregarding our laws to dump1631people in the United States through the abuse of the parole1632system and putting people on our streets that have led directly1633to the murder of American citizens. My colleagues on the other1634side of the dais here wonder why what happened in November1635happened.1636    The H.R. 2, Mr. Newman, do you agree that H.R. 2 has1637significant reforms in it that we should adopt this Congress,1638the H.R. 2 that was passed in the previous Congress in the1639Spring 2023?1640    Mr. Newman. Absolutely.1641    Mr. Roy. That bill set out to reform asylum laws, set out1642to reform parole laws, set out to end the abuse of catch and1643release through the Flores Settlement and then TBPR,1644unaccompanied alien children. Did we fix a lot of those broken1645problems in H.R. 2?1646    Mr. Newman. Yes.1647    Mr. Roy. Would that bill have demonstrably changed the1648ability for a Biden Administration to abuse our laws, to allow1649them to be open and endanger the American people?1650    Mr. Newman. Yes.1651    Mr. Roy. Do you believe that this Congress should take up1652H.R. 2 in its current form, in the form that was passed the1653last Congress close, give or take, take that bill up and pass1654it in this Congress?1655    Mr. Newman. Yes.1656    Mr. Roy. Do you believe that the so-called bipartisan1657legislation that was tried to move in the last Congress in the1658Senate but never passed the Senate, never passed out and moved1659in any serious fashion, do you believe that bill should be1660brought up in this Congress?1661    Mr. Newman. No, not at all.1662    Mr. Roy. Do you agree with me that that bill had enormous1663flaws in it?1664    Mr. Newman. Yes.1665    Mr. Roy. That it would have codified a lot of the releases1666in the broken system under the Biden Administration?1667    Mr. Newman. Uh-huh.1668    Mr. Roy. It would have failed to reform asylum?1669    Mr. Newman. Yes.1670    Mr. Roy. It would have failed to reform parole?1671    Mr. Newman. Yes.1672    Mr. Roy. That would have given more money to NGO's to1673violate our laws and ignore our borders?1674    Mr. Newman. Yes.1675    Mr. Roy. In other words, that bill is a joke, a laughing1676stock. You agree?1677    Mr. Newman. Absolutely.1678    Mr. Roy. With respect to TDA, Mr. Fabbricatore, a1679Congressman from the jurisdiction that I believe you ran in in1680Aurora, Colorado, tried to dismiss what was happening in1681apartment complexes. True or false? I went out and visited with1682you. True or false, TDA is active in the apartment complexes in1683Aurora, Colorado, and other places around the country?1684    Mr. Fabbricatore. It is absolutely true, sir, absolutely1685100 percent true.1686    Mr. Roy. You witnessed the danger with your own eyes.1687    Mr. Fabbricatore. I witnessed that danger. I've been to1688those apartment complexes, and recently more people were1689arrested in those apartment complexes for kidnapping and1690extorting other people in those apartment complexes.1691    Mr. Roy. You would agree with me that it is a scourge1692across our country, including in Texas, in my own district in1693San Antonio?1694    Mr. Fabbricatore. Absolutely, sir. It is happening.1695    Mr. Roy. Well, we don't have any legal scholars. I'll come1696back to birthright citizenship in the future, but just suffice1697it to say there is significant and ample evidence with what we1698understand about birthright citizenship that subject to the1699jurisdiction thereof does not mean that you have a right to1700citizenship simply for being on our soil and being born on our1701soil. We'll talk about that at another hearing.1702    I yield back.1703    Ms. Scanlon. Mr. Chair, I have a unanimous consent request.1704Speaking of felons who have been released, I seek unanimous1705consent to introduce the arrest warrant for Daniel Charles1706Bell, a man who was convicted of throwing explosive devices at1707law enforcement during the January 6th riots. He's just been1708arrested on Federal gun charges by the Trump-led--1709    Mr. McClintock. The gentlelady is recognized for a1710unanimous consent request. The request has been made without1711objection. Granted.1712    Ms. Scanlon. Thank you.1713    Mr. McClintock. Ms. Ross.1714    Ms. Ross. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the1715witnesses for being here. The fact is that enforcement alone1716will not fix our immigration system. We need a comprehensive1717approach that balances effective enforcement with the needs of1718our country. We must strengthen and expand lawful immigration1719pathways. This is a commonsense solution that will ease1720pressure on our border and ensure that individuals seeking a1721better life and to improve the United States and our economy1722have a clear and orderly path to enter our country legally.1723    Creating and enhancing a legal pathway is critical toward1724enhancing national security and protecting our economy. The1725reality is that cutting lawful pathways only exacerbates the1726crisis at the border. For instance, the decision to end the CBP1727One app, which was essential to make sure that people could1728come when they knew they had an appointment, and we actually1729saw people at the border using that app when we did our codel1730to the Southern border. Getting rid of it threatens to upend1731progress, threatens chaos, and it is not a solution for1732unlawful migration.1733    Additionally, we must consider the humanitarian and1734economic consequences of mass deportations. Deporting every1735undocumented immigrant in the country would destroy families,1736devastate industries, and make our economy less secure.1737    I represent North Carolina. Without immigrant labor, we1738would have no agriculture industry. We would not have a food1739service industry. Many of our tech industry executives beg for1740more lawful pathways to immigration. Our hospitality industry,1741our construction industry, I hear from them every single day.1742    Furthermore, the President's efforts to eliminate1743birthright citizenship are deeply disturbing. Not only does it1744fly in the face of the Constitution, but it creates legal1745uncertainty for millions of children born in the United States.1746That chaos will overwhelm our legal system, sow confusion, and1747create an underclass of stateless individuals--all in violation1748of the Constitution.1749    As we discuss the future of immigration enforcement, I urge1750my colleagues to consider the broader implications of these1751policies and work together to enact solutions that reflect our1752values and our needs as a Nation. We can secure our border and1753have enough people in this country to perform essential1754services.1755    Dr. Bier--or, Mr. Bier, I'm sorry, I was elevating you,1756since Congress created the Department of Homeland Security in17572003, we've spent approximately $409 billion on immigration1758enforcement and tens of billions more on border barriers and1759other immigration-enforcement-related infrastructure projects.1760Despite this massive infusion of money, the system is still1761broken. Can you explain why focusing on enforcement alone will1762not fix our broken immigration system?1763    Mr. Bier. As long as there's demand for labor in the United1764States, people are going to try to come to fill that demand. We1765saw it under the Trump Administration, the Bush Administration,1766the Obama Administration, and the Clinton Administration. You1767can go all the way back. As long as there's no legal way for1768them to fill jobs, they're going to come illegally. Whether you1769could say greater or lesser extent, they're going to come, and1770we're going to continue to deal with this problem.1771    The most critical area is that right now for lesser skilled1772jobs there is no visa, no work visa at all for year-round jobs1773not requiring a college degree. So, where are all the people1774who are crossing the border going? They're going into those1775jobs. So, we absolutely need to reform our legal immigration1776system.1777    Ms. Ross. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I yield back.1778    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Van Drew.1779    Mr. Van Drew. Thank you, Chair. First, I want to take this1780opportunity to thank you, Chair. Thank you for the work that1781you've done on this issue. Thank you for your constant1782persistence in bringing it up over and over again. You have1783made a difference on the issue, a significant one, and a1784difference in the United States of America, and I mean it. I'm1785proud of the work you've done.1786    Mr. Bier, I can't say the same for you. I don't even have1787the words, and I would need an hour and a half with you one-on-1788one alone to go through it and please--1789    Mr. Bier. I'd be happy to, anytime.1790    Mr. Van Drew. We'll take you up on that. Let me tell you1791the things that you said to me--and I'm not being disrespectful1792because I always try to be respectful to everybody--are1793bizarre. I believe I'm in bizarro world. I don't even know1794where these statements come from.1795    Mr. Bier. I've got all the statistics in my statement.1796    Mr. Van Drew. I didn't ask you a question, sir. Mr. Bier, I1797want to associate some of the words that he said. I wish you1798could sit in front of the families, and it isn't just Laken1799Riley. I can give you name after name after name of men and1800women and children who were beaten, who were raped, who were1801abused, who were disfigured, who were harmed, and we keep1802overlooking that because we say, ``There wasn't that many of1803them. We don't care about the 400 people that got into this1804country, the best that we can tell, that are on the terror1805watch list. Well, it's just not that many of them.'' Let me1806tell you, to the mother or the father or the son or the1807daughter that loses somebody, one is enough.1808    To have this intellectual argument as we sit here in our1809comfortable Chairs and our warm room where Laken Riley, for1810example, fought for 20 minutes not to be raped and then finally1811was beaten so badly and her skull crushed in that she lost her1812life while her mother was calling her wondering where she was;1813that's what matters to me.1814    So, today's heed is a simple one: Actions have1815consequences. President Biden's dozens of Executive Orders,1816they crippled our border security and opened up the floodgates1817of the Southern border. That is a fact. Mr. Bier, I don't care1818what you say. It's a fact. We see it and we feel it. That's why1819Americans know it. That's why the election that occurred had1820occurred. Congressional Democrats refused to pass H.R. 2, which1821was a good piece of legislation, and the floodgates opened1822more. The State and local Democratic leaders opened their1823cities and spent billions on billions of dollars to care for1824illegal immigrants. Legal immigration is good. When my1825colleagues on the other side speak about immigration, let's1826make sure we all understand there is a big difference between1827legal and illegal immigration. Under President Biden, U.S.1828Customs and Border Protection encountered--and the number of1829changes, it fluctuates, but it's about 10 million inadmissible1830aliens from January 2021-December 2024. That's three times the1831number encountered during the Trump Aadministration.1832    Let's talk about the real numbers and the real facts. The1833Biden Administration deliberately dismantled the effective1834protocols and tools that we had and instituted catch and1835release. That had an effect. It ended the construction of the1836wall. That had an enormous effect. They ended Title 42. That1837had another bad effect. They had ended the Remain in Mexico1838policy, which hurt us as well. Over and over and over again,1839everything to open up the borders. No Nation prevails with open1840borders.1841    The negligence has introduced us to serious international1842and national danger. Nearly 400 individuals, as I said, are on1843the terror watch list. They're not hypotheticals. They're real1844people. They're real men and women that have been hurt.1845    The gentleman, good man on the other side, the Ranking1846Member Mr. Raskin, said ``most illegals are not violent.'' Most1847illegals are not violent. I agree with that. Most are not1848violent. They're still breaking the law. Damn it, enough of1849them are that it's scary. Tell all those families that most of1850them are not violent. They don't care about most of them. Come1851on. Let's get into the real world.1852    It's not compassionated what my friends on the other side1853of the aisle are doing. It hurts us and it hurts illegals. It1854hurts children. It hurts American families. It hurts legal1855immigrants as well.1856    I have a question for Mr. Fabbricatore. I hope I pronounced1857your name--1858    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, sir.1859    Mr. Van Drew. As the first non-Italian to marry into my1860wife's family, and they'll probably listen to this, and I'll1861get in trouble if I screw it up.1862    I think we shouldn't fund sanctuary cities and sanctuary1863States. We're sending Federal money over there. They're1864purposely breaking the law. What do you think, and what's the1865specific impact of cutting off this Federal funding would have?1866    Mr. Fabbricatore. We should not fund them. Sanctuary cities1867do not protect American citizens. They only protect criminal1868illegal aliens.1869    Mr. Van Drew. Thank you.1870    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman's time expired.1871    Mr. Van Drew. Thank you. I yield back.1872    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Garcia.1873    Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and to all the witnesses1874today.1875    To no one's surprise, President Trump continues again using1876nativist rhetoric to demonize all immigrants to scare the1877public. Now, the House and the Senate have passed a bill to1878turn those words into devastating action.1879    My first question for Mr. Bier is this. Mr. Bier, on1880January 17th, you tweeted that ``the Laken Riley Act pretends1881to be about stopping illegal immigration who commit crimes. In1882fact, it's a trojan horse designed to destroy legal1883migration.'' As you know, the Laken Riley Act permits the1884attorneys general to sue DHS for perceived failures in1885immigration enforcement, so I'd appreciate you spelling it out1886here. What are the dangers of that section in the Laken Riley1887Act? Specifically, how can it be weaponized by State officials1888to dismantle legal immigration?1889    Mr. Bier. Look, people who commit crimes are already1890priorities for removal. They were priorities for removal under1891the Biden Administration. They're priorities for removal right1892now. So, there's no difference there. What's different about1893this act is the empowerment of States' Attorney Generals to go1894to courts and force the Secretary of State to stop issuing1895visas to countries that delay deportations to their countries.1896So, India, China, the largest origin countries, Cuba,1897Venezuela, these are all countries that are on the list. We1898would have to stop admitting Afghan allies from Afghanistan, of1899course.1900    So, it basically takes the authority away from the1901Secretary of State. Secretary of State future Rubio in this1902case would not have the ability to make that determination. It1903would be turned over to the courts and result in a huge slash1904in legal immigration and really no change in interior1905enforcement.1906    Mr. Garcia. So, it really provides unprecedented powers to1907Attorneys General in the States over a Federal matter.1908    Let's switch gears to the Alien Enemies Act. This is an1909Executive Order recently invoked by the President. It was1910enacted in 1789. It was designed to address threats during1911times of declared war, but it's been criticized since it was1912implemented in the 18th century, and it continues to be invoked1913to strip the rights from entire groups based on their national1914origin, for example, to justify the detainment of Japanese1915Americans, Italian, German Americans during World War II or,1916more recently, Trump's Muslim ban.1917    President Trump signed an Executive Order to use the Alien1918Enemies Act to do mass deportations without due process,1919raising significant Constitutional questions. How does this1920align with the Fifth Amendment, which guarantees due process to1921all individuals within the United States, Mr. Bier?1922    Mr. Bier. Yes. So, if he invokes the Alien Enemies Act, it1923will give him power to use the military to detain, arrest, and1924remove people without proving that they're in the country1925illegally or are removable from the United States. That's an1926incredibly dangerous power that threatens the rights of all1927Americans. It also could apply even to legal permanent1928residents and other noncitizens who could be removed. Again,1929we're not subject to an invasion by a foreign government as1930required by the act. So, I don't know where he's going to be1931able to justify the use of this authority that was designed for1932cases of war.1933    Mr. Garcia. Thank you. In one minute, I want you to comment1934on another debate going on regarding the 14th Amendment. Some1935argue that the Framers did not consider illegal immigrants when1936drafting the citizenship clause. Could you elaborate on your1937perspective regarding the 14th Amendment?1938    Mr. Bier. Well, if they didn't think about illegal1939immigrants, then they couldn't possibly have written an1940exception to them, to the general rule that anyone born in the1941United States is a U.S. citizen. Obviously, if they weren't1942thinking about illegal immigrants, they couldn't have written1943that exception into the law. Obviously, it doesn't apply in1944this case because, if illegal immigrants are not subject to the1945laws of the United States, then they're not illegal immigrants.1946So, it's a circular argument that makes no sense and I assume1947will be laughed out of the courts.1948    Mr. Garcia. Thus, the absurdity of attempting to deny1949birthright to those born in this country.1950    Mr. Bier. It's completely absurd, and it's not even just1951illegal immigrants we're talking about and their children.1952Also, the children of legal residents who have been invited1953here by our government under visa categories, guest workers,1954international students, even the former Vice President Kamala1955Harris would be potentially affected by this illegal and1956unconstitutional order.1957    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman's time is expired.1958    Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chair.1959    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Moore.1960    Mr. Moore. Thank you, Mr. Chair.1961    I think we'll talk more about the 14th Amendment.1962Obviously, it passed right after slavery was eradicated in the1963United States, so all those children born to the slaves were1964allowed to be citizens. If you look at the Congressional Record1965when they debated that, it's pretty clear, but we won't talk1966about that today.1967    President Trump said yesterday in his inaugural speech to1968restore common sense to America. Just common sense. So, I'm1969reminded of lies, and I'm going to give you the Southern1970Baptist version: Lies, dang lies, and statistics.1971    Mr. Bier has given us a lot of statistics today, but the1972reality is that 76 million people elected Donald Trump to fix1973the chaos that is the U.S. Southern border right now. What I've1974seen in my communities, and you've heard testimony in here, I1975had a 14-year-old girl in one of my districts, dragged into a1976bathroom and raped by a Nicaraguan who had a prior criminal1977record, Mr. Fabbricatore. He came here 31 years old and claimed1978to be a minor, and we did no background checks. We turned that1979man loose into the community, and he raped a girl in the1980bathroom in a restaurant in Wetumpka, Alabama. That's the kind1981of chaos that we've seen on the border.1982    Sheriff Daniels testified, he came here and testified under1983oath that, in 40 years of working a border town, he had never1984seen the border any better than it was in 2018 and never any1985worse than it was when he was here just a few months ago. Mr.1986Fabbricatore, what do you think changed? What changed? Was it1987anything we did here in Congress?1988    Mr. Fabbricatore. Well, what changed was the Biden1989Administration letting in millions of people unvetted. The1990vetting at the border was abysmal at best. It was only checking1991for histories within the United States. So, if you had someone1992that had committed crimes in another country--1993    Mr. Moore. You don't have a history in this country.1994    Mr. Fabbricatore. We did not know many people who came in.1995We did not know what their criminal histories were.1996    Mr. Moore. Is that how a 31-year-old man claims to be a1997minor and comes in as an unaccompanied minor to this country?1998Because we weren't vetting anybody.1999    Mr. Fabbricatore. The vetting was horrible and that2000instance happens a lot where we have them claiming to be2001juveniles, criminal illegal aliens claiming to be juveniles,2002because they know it would be easier to enter the United2003States, and they probably won't get put into detention, and the2004Biden Administration allowed that to happen.2005    Mr. Moore. Ms. Vaughn, certainly we've seen this across the2006country, the fentanyl deaths and the sort of things that are2007happening in our communities. Over 100,000 kids we lost to2008fentanyl deaths pouring across the U.S. Southern border. In2009Yuma, Arizona, when we had the hearing there, folks, we2010literally had people coming across in labor that were taking2011them to a hospital, and those ladies were delivering children2012in the ER to the point that even the U.S. citizens could not2013get a bed when they were in labor and delivery.2014    The crazy--one of the most astonishing things that I saw2015was that the hospital by Federal law was required to provide2016them car seats, and so they were running out of car seats for2017ladies who were having children in our hospitals while the2018American citizens could not get a labor and delivery bed. That2019was going on under the prior administration.2020    Now, so I led out with President Trump said something about2021common sense. I'm going to give you an opportunity, each of you2022guys, to tell me the one thing that you think Congress needs to2023do that makes common sense. How do we fix this crisis that we2024have? How do we fulfill the promise of securing the U.S.2025Southern border and making America safe again?2026    Mr. Fabbricatore, Fab, I'll let you go first.2027    Mr. Fabbricatore. Thank you, sir. Make sure ICE is funded.2028Make sure enforcement removal operations have the officers2029necessary. Increase detention beds. We need a massive increase2030in detention beds from what we have now, which is around 40,0002031to probably in excess of 70,000. We need to make sure that we2032can fund this so that we can take care of this problem today.2033    Mr. Moore. The Chair mentioned that. We're going to--as2034this Committee and as Congress, we are going to make sure that2035we fund the President's priorities to round people up and get2036them out of here.2037    Ms. Vaughn.2038    Ms. Vaughan. Another thing that would help a lot would be2039to eliminate all the programs that allow people who have2040managed to get into the country to have their status laundered2041essentially into a program, a visa program or a benefit that2042gives them a work permit.2043    Mr. Moore. Ms. Vaughn, how do you launder a status? That's2044interesting.2045    Ms. Vaughan. Well, you apply for a program like a U visa2046program, special immigrant juvenile, or a TPS sometimes can be2047granted. Even though you entered illegally, you're allowed to2048stay, and you get a work permit, and the systems are so bogged2049down, you get this benefit even before your application has2050been evaluated or you've had a background check, and many of2051these have a path to citizenship.2052    Mr. Moore. Talking about bogging a system down, folks. In2053Yuma, Arizona, in the testimony, they were getting a cell2054phone, $800 a month, and we were turning them loose, and then2055the phones were so we could call them to come to the court2056case, but they would take our phones and not our calls. It's2057quite astonishing.2058    Mr. Newman, one quick comment--2059    Mr. Newman. Pass H.R. 2. Stop the loophole.2060    Mr. Moore. Very good. Very good. We passed that in the2061House, but the Democratic-controlled Senate would not pass it.2062Do you know that? Are you aware of that? We'll bring it back.2063    Thank you, Mr. Chair. I yield back.2064    Mr. McClintock. Time has expired. Ms. Crockett.2065    Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.2066    I am going to try to get through a lot quickly. As one of2067the few people sitting on the dais who actually practiced2068criminal law in the State of Texas as well as licensed in2069Arkansas and practiced there as well as Federal courts, one of2070the things that you said earlier, Mr. Bier, really stuck with2071me is that there are already laws on the books as it relates to2072those violent criminals, and I know this, because even though I2073hail from the great city of Dallas, I can tell you that when2074someone would come in and they were being held in custody for,2075say, a crime, they also had an ICE hold. OK? That was for those2076that had maybe been deported before and had re-entered2077illegally, and things like that.2078    So, no matter what type of city you're in, I do want to be2079clear: Federal law already, no matter if it's under the Biden2080Administration or if it's under a Republican Administration, we2081all agree that we want to be safe. That's the first premise2082that we're losing, because there isn't something that is tatted2083on my head that says that ``I'm a Democrat, and, therefore, you2084illegal bad person, don't come for me, go for the ones that2085have the Rs on their forehead.''2086    Now, let me be clear about this as well, because we've2087talked about crime, and we've talked about fentanyl2088specifically, and this is also something that I have dealt2089with, unlike some of my other colleagues. Listen, I'm going to2090be honest because I actually want to fix problems. I actually2091have a really good Senator in Texas, and I'm sure you can guess2092which one is the good one, but let me tell you, if we care2093about fentanyl, I have multiple bills for that. I started on2094the State level before everybody started talking about it, and2095I have Federal bills, bills that my Senior Senator has signed2096on to.2097    So, I welcome my colleagues, because I actually want to2098make sure that my communities are safe, but as we start to talk2099about crime and statistics, Mr. Bier, I want to play a little2100game with you. It's called rhetoric versus reality. So, I want2101to ask you my first question, is this rhetoric or reality?2102Immigrants commit more crimes than U.S. citizens?2103    Mr. Bier. On a per capita basis--2104    Ms. Crockett. Rhetoric or reality?2105    Mr. Bier. Oh, it is rhetoric.2106    Ms. Crockett. OK. Thank you so much. Mr. Chair, I'd like to2107ask for a unanimous consent to enter into the record this2108article, which states that undocumented immigrant offending2109rate lower than U.S.-born citizen rate, and this is from2110nij.ojp.gov.2111    Mr. McClintock. Without objection.2112    Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much. The next one, immigrants2113are just living off the Federal Government and contribute2114nothing.2115    Mr. Bier. That would be rhetoric.2116    Ms. Crockett. OK. Thank you so much.2117    Mr. Chair, I would ask unanimous consent to enter a study2118that says undocumented immigrants pay almost $100 billion in2119taxes. This is from the Alabama Reflector.2120    Mr. McClintock. Without objection.2121    Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much.2122    My final rhetoric-or-reality question is immigrants only2123enter at the Southern border.2124    Mr. Bier. Rhetoric.2125    Ms. Crockett. OK. Right. Because they enter all kinds of2126ways. I wanted to make sure that I put that out there. In fact,2127I have a few more questions, because I still have a little bit2128of time, which I usually run out of time. We have talked,2129again, about crime, and there's been this overemphasis on it.2130    Honestly, I can tell you that I don't want anyone to be2131killed, whether it's here or anywhere else. There is nothing2132about me as the child of a preacher that makes me say that I2133want people to die. OK? So, I feel as if my colleagues from2134across the aisle have decided that they are going to make2135immigrants the boogie man. It's insanity to me, but they also2136show compassion for victims, which they should, but they have2137no compassion for people that are contributing to making us2138great in this country.2139    So, interestingly enough, I'm curious to know, Mr. Bier, if2140you know if immigrants contributed to these particular crimes?2141There was a mass shooting in Buffalo, New York, that killed a2142number of African Americans as they were trying to shop for2143groceries. Was the defendant an immigrant in that case? Do you2144know?2145    Mr. Bier. No. He was a U.S.-born citizen.2146    Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much. In Charleston, South2147Carolina, there were Black church goers trying to praise the2148Lord. They were killed. Was that an immigrant that perpetrated2149that or not?2150    Mr. Bier. That was a U.S.-born citizen.2151    Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much. Now, coming home to Texas,2152there was an El Paso shooting. Do you know if that was an2153immigrant or not?2154    Mr. Bier. No. They were targeting immigrants in that case.2155    Ms. Crockett. In fact, each of these cases it was White2156supremacists, and so the last unanimous consent that I'd ask2157for is this article that states that, ``White supremacists2158behind over 80 percent of extremism related U.S. murders in21592022.''2160    Mr. McClintock. Without objection.2161    Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much.2162    Mr. McClintock. The gentlelady's time has expired.2163    Mr. Grothman.2164    Mr. Grothman. Thank you. Eventually, some sort of2165immigration bill is going to be passed this Congress. We're2166trying to look for some common ground.2167    Mr. Bier, we've talked about this before in the past. I've2168introduced something called a Safeguarding Benefits for2169Americans Act, which prevents noncitizens from receiving what2170we would normally refer to as welfare benefits. I just want to2171confirm that you think it would be a good idea, probably2172improving the quality of immigrants we have coming here.2173    Mr. Bier. Absolutely. Immigrants should be self-sufficient2174when they come to the United States.2175    Mr. Grothman. Very good. Well, there's maybe something we2176can receive bipartisan support for when we move an immigration2177bill. Next thing I'd like to point out, and Mr. Moore has2178always handled this to a degree, I want to point out that in2179the 14th Amendment it does not say all persons born in the2180United States become citizens of the United States. It's all2181persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to2182the jurisdiction thereof. That amendment was passed coming out2183of the Civil War. There's a reason it passed coming out of the2184Civil War. Congress was afraid the Democrats would try to2185undermine the results of that war by forbidding former slaves2186from voting. Clearly, that's what the amendment was supposed to2187deal with. It did not include anybody who just happened to show2188up here and have a baby and moved on.2189    Any Congressman at that time is going to be seen from the2190debate on the floor at that time. No Congressman felt that2191resulted in what we are now referring to as birthright2192citizenship. It was supposed to be limited to slaves. You did2193not have--you were not subject to the jurisdiction--you were2194only subject to the jurisdiction thereof if you were a former2195slave. A person who came here from France and was just passing2196through, their child would not become a citizen. That should be2197obvious.2198    Now, I want to get on to a few more questions. I'm going to2199ask these of Ms. Vaughn. When a child arrives at the border--2200OK. One of the heartbreaking stories you sometimes hear in this2201country is parents get divorced. One parent grabs the child and2202flees to somewhere like Pakistan or somewhere. The other parent2203is here in the United States, and they can't get that child2204back. In other words, it results in a broken family, which is2205just horrible. I do think we have to do all we can to keep2206families together.2207    In this country, under the Biden Administration, before2208that, if a child shows up with one parent and they come in this2209country, is any effort made to see whether the local courts say2210the child comes here from Guatemala, Cuba, wherever, that the2211local court has said that they want the parents separate, or do2212we just assume that the other parent would be OK with this in2213not seeing this child again?2214    Ms. Vaughan. Well, if you're referring to cases in which2215the child is seeking an order of protection from say a State2216family court, is that the scenario?2217    Mr. Grothman. Well, let's say there's a divorce.2218    Ms. Vaughan. Or at the border itself? At the border,2219families who arrive--or a person--an adult who arrives with a2220child is not detained.2221    Mr. Grothman. Right. Do you think they should be--we should2222do something to make sure that we don't have a situation like I2223described where one parent takes the child to Pakistan, and2224they're gone? Again, if a parent shows up at the Southern--one2225parent with a child, we don't know where the other parent is.2226We don't know whether that parent who shows up is fleeing the2227other parent, trying to raise that child without a parent. Is2228that of concern to you?2229    Ms. Vaughan. Well, it is because our State family courts2230are not in a position to evaluate those claims made if the2231alien child, for example, is seeking a special immigrant2232juvenile visa, seeking to stay here permanently. There's just2233no way they're not held to the same standards of evidence that2234say an American kid would have to receive an order of2235protection.2236    Mr. Grothman. Right.2237    Ms. Vaughan. So, this leads to abuse.2238    Mr. Grothman. You think it would be a good idea when we2239pass our immigration law if we said that, if a child is here2240with one parent, we have to make sure legally somehow that the2241other parent is OK with that where it's in accordance with the2242local courts, and as I said, Guatemala, Cuba, wherever. The2243local courts have said it's OK that we're permanently breaking2244up the family, which I think should happen very rarely.2245    Ms. Vaughan. Yes, that's a tough thing for the American2246legal system to deal with something that happened, a separation2247that occurred in the home country.2248    Mr. Grothman. We wouldn't have to deal with the system if2249we--2250    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman's time has expired.2251    Mr. Cohen.2252    Mr. Cohen. Thank you, Mr. Chair.2253    Mr. Bier, let me ask you a question about the Laken Riley2254case. You said people who are criminals and felons were already2255prioritized. Isn't that if they're convicted?2256    Mr. Bier. That's right. You need a criminal conviction to2257be subject to mandatory detention. You don't need a criminal2258conviction if you are in the country illegally already, and the2259administration can go out and arrest that person even without a2260criminal conviction.2261    Mr. Cohen. Laken Riley, I believe, was the bill we had that2262expanded that to people who were charged with--charged with,2263not convicted.2264    Mr. Cohen. You didn't even need an arrest to be subject to2265mandatory detention. So, there's a difference--there is2266discretion for ICE to go get someone who is fleeing or evading2267charges, but if someone has just been arrested and then they're2268never charged because they didn't commit the crime, it would be2269wrong to subject someone to mandatory imprisonment in a case2270where they were cleared.2271    Mr. Cohen. So, you think there should be some priorities in2272whom we try to deport.2273    Mr. Bier. Absolutely. We need to focus on people who have2274violated the rights of Americans, who have committed crimes2275with victims. Those are the people that we need to seek justice2276for--not just if they're immigrants, but, in general, that's2277what law enforcement should be focusing on.2278    Mr. Cohen. Even on pardons. If you had people that tried to2279overthrow the government on January 6th, if you should go after2280people that were--maybe beat cops up and lead the operation to2281distinguish from people that were--just showed up and kind of2282hung out.2283    Mr. Bier. I absolutely believe that we should focus on2284violent offenders and prosecute them to the fullest extent of2285the law.2286    Mr. Cohen. Mr. Fabbricatore?2287    Mr. Fabbricatore. Fabbricatore, yes, thank you.2288    Mr. Cohen. Do you agree with what Mr. Bier said, that we2289should have priorities on who we go after?2290    Mr. Fabbricatore. No, sir, I do not. I believe we should2291focus--2292    Mr. Cohen. Do you think the DACA kids who have been in this2293country for maybe 20 or 25 years and have been good citizens2294and might be in the military or National Guard or something,2295that they should be rounded up and deported as well?2296    Mr. Fabbricatore. The focus should be on criminals2297initially, but if you're violating the immigration law, you2298violate the immigration law. You violated laws of the United2299States, and, at some point in time, that needs to come to a2300reckoning.2301    Mr. Cohen. We don't have enough money to put into this to2302deport everybody that's in your category, right?2303    Mr. Fabbricatore. I would ask if you would fund that, sir,2304as Congress.2305    Mr. Cohen. Well, if we fund it, we'd probably have to cut2306out lots of basic programs we've got now. It's a tremendous2307amount of money, billions and billions of dollars.2308    Mr. Fabbricatore. I don't put a cost on United States2309citizens lives, sir.2310    Mr. Cohen. OK. Maybe we'll get Elon to pay for it. The2311election is over, and we need to find common ground. The bill2312that the Senate is proposing, how many Republicans were for2313that bill or voted for it?2314    Mr. Bier. I don't remember. Could be a couple.2315    Mr. Cohen. Could be 15 or 16, couldn't it?2316    Mr. Bier. I don't have the answer to that.2317    Mr. Cohen. I think it was closer to 15 or 16. I don't2318recall exactly, but there were quite a few. What did that bill2319do that was good and we should take up now; and what was in the2320bill, if anything, that you think was bad?2321    Mr. Bier. Well, I certainly think that one of the most2322important reforms in that legislation was that, if someone is2323released from U.S. custody, they're able to seek a work2324authorization and support themselves. What we saw in New York,2325and it's pointed to repeatedly about these people who are2326living in hotel rooms and a burden on the community; it's2327because they are unable to work to support themselves because2328they're told, ``You're not supposed to work; you have to wait2329six months to get your work permit through the asylum2330process.'' So, if the government is not going to remove2331someone, they're going to release them unless they've committed2332some serious crime, or there's some other aggravating2333circumstance. They should be supporting themselves and2334contributing to the community. So, that's one important thing2335that it did.2336    It made some important reforms to the legal immigration2337process as well, increasing green card caps for the first time2338since 1990. That's how old our legal immigration system is. The2339overall framework of the legal immigration system needs to be2340reformed. This was a modest step in the right direction.2341    Mr. Cohen. What we need is legislation that is thought out,2342not just common sense, but logical, thought out, and planned--2343not where somebody might just say, ``What are we going to do2344with all these January 6th people? It's going to take some2345time. We have to take some processes. So, just eff it; just do2346them all.'' That's a man child. We don't need a man child in2347charge of our government or making policy, because that makes2348for mistakes. That makes for the guy who came up with the Silk2349Road and is the biggest drug dealer in the world to get a2350pardon. Needs to stop. Our immigration laws ought to be done in2351a logical manner and with priorities.2352    I yield back the balance of my time.2353    Mr. McClintock. Gentleman's time has expired.2354    Mr. Fry.2355    Mr. Fry. Thank you, Mr. Chair, for having us here. I think2356it's really appropriate, as we begin this Congress, that we2357start with the issue that was settled in November and why the2358American people chose overwhelmingly Donald Trump to be our235947th President.2360    I'm a little perplexed, though, Mr. Bier about a statement2361that you made that Joe Biden made the border and the2362immigration system better. Nobody believes that. People in2363their communities, and I'm not going to ask you a question2364about this, but nobody believes that.2365    In fact, behind me, the numbers don't lie, sir. Look at the2366hike under the Biden Administration of illegal migrants coming2367into this country. He fixed the problem or made it better? I2368don't think so.2369    I'd also remind you, and for people watching back home,2370that it didn't get better. In fact, in September of last year,2371Chair Green of the Homeland Security Committee released a press2372release talking about a letter that they received from ICE that2373nearly 650,000 criminal illegal aliens were currently in ICE's2374nondetained docket roaming free in the community. That means2375that they were picked up, processed, had their criminal2376backgrounds obtained by the U.S. Government, and released into2377the interior of this country: 15,000 homicides; 20,000 sexual2378assaults; assaults over 100,000; burglary, larceny, and2379robbery, 60,000; traffic offenses, 126,000; and kidnapping is23803,500. The list goes on. So, nobody actually believes, sir,2381that the immigration system got better under Joe Biden.2382    Really quick, Mr. Fabbricatore, Mr. Newman, and Ms. Vaughn,2383I'm going to go down the line here and ask a couple questions.2384When Joe Biden terminated the Remain in Mexico policy, did that2385lead to a decrease in illegal immigration, sir?2386    Mr. Fabbricatore. No, it did not, sir.2387    Mr. Fry. Ms. Vaughn?2388    Ms. Vaughn. No.2389    Mr. Fry. Mr. Newman?2390    Mr. Newman. No.2391    Mr. Fry. When Joe Biden halted construction of the border2392wall on day one of his administration, did that lead to a2393decrease in illegal immigration to this country, Mr.2394Fabbricatore?2395    Mr. Fabbricatore. It did not decrease illegal immigration.2396    Mr. Fry. Ms. Vaughn?2397    Ms. Vaughn. No, sir.2398    Mr. Fry. Mr. Newman?2399    Mr. Newman. No.2400    Mr. Fry. When he terminated the asylum cooperative2401agreements with Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras, did that2402lead to a decrease in illegal immigration?2403    Mr. Fabbricatore. No.2404    Ms. Vaughn. No.2405    Mr. Newman. No.2406    Mr. Fry. When he bastardized parole authority and changed2407the law himself, did that lead to a decrease in illegal2408immigration?2409    Mr. Fabbricatore. No, sir.2410    Ms. Vaughn. No. It got worse.2411    Mr. Fry. I think the answers are pretty clear. In fact,2412when we went to Yuma, Arizona, and met with the community and2413saw firsthand--of course, the Democrats didn't even show up to2414work. They wouldn't go down there with us. It was an actual2415Judiciary Committee hearing, a field hearing in Yuma, and they2416didn't come.2417    We would hear from the people there the stress on the2418health-care system, the stress at the border, and the stress on2419the families. You couldn't even get a hospital room if you2420needed to have a child or if you broke your leg. Those are the2421people who were impacted and, of course, we see this in our2422community.2423    So, let's fast-forward to today. President Trump with his2424Executive Orders reinstated the Remain in Mexico policy. Will2425that lead to a decrease in illegal immigration?2426    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, sir.2427    Mr. Fry. Ms. Vaughn?2428    Ms. Vaughn. I believe so, yes.2429    Mr. Fry. Mr. Newman?2430    Mr. Newman. Absolutely.2431    Mr. Fry. Will completing construction of the border wall2432and funding our immigration services down there, will that lead2433to a decrease in illegal immigration?2434    Mr. Fabbricatore. It will help decrease illegal2435immigration.2436    Mr. Fry. Ms. Vaughn?2437    Ms. Vaughn. As long as there are no policies to undermine2438the deterrence.2439    Mr. Fry. That's a key point. Yes, ma'am.2440    Mr. Newman. That's a key tool to help.2441    Mr. Fry. Will designating cartels and gangs as foreign2442terrorist organizations lead to a decrease in illegal2443immigration?2444    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes.2445    Ms. Vaughn. I hope so.2446    Mr. Newman. Yes, I hope so.2447    Mr. Fry. Will terminating categorical parole programs lead2448to a decrease in illegal immigration?2449    Mr. Fabbricatore. It absolutely will.2450    Ms. Vaughn. Definitely.2451    Mr. Fry. Mr. Newman?2452    Mr. Newman. Yes.2453    Mr. Fry. Will terminating the use of the CBP One app, which2454I think was described by somebody on this Committee as the2455Disney fast pass for illegal immigration, will that lead to a2456decrease in illegal immigration?2457    Mr. Fabbricatore. It will. It was full of fraud.2458    Ms. Vaughn. Yes.2459    Mr. Newman. Yes.2460    Mr. Fry. So, I think that's pretty clear. The next step,2461obviously, they are part one of the Executive Orders. Part two,2462what Congress can do.2463    So, Mr. Fabbricatore, just for perspective, you served at2464ICE during the Trump Administration and part of the Biden-2465Harris Administration. How would you describe the differences2466between the two administrations, very briefly, and enforcement2467under both administrations?2468    Mr. Fabbricatore. It was night and day. President Trump2469wanted to enforce what was exactly in the INA while President2470Biden, the minute that he came into office, it was a change2471into we are not enforcing these laws. We're opening this2472border. He wanted a 100-day moratorium on deportations the2473first day when he was in office.2474    Mr. Fry. Ms. Vaughn, final question for you. What steps can2475we take to make sure that future administrations, like the2476Biden Administration, don't undermine the actual law or twist2477policies that we can have a permanent fix to this problem?2478    Ms. Vaughn. In addition to funding immigration enforcement,2479to rewrite the rules on some of these programs and2480discretionary authorities to give out work permits and2481categorical parole or attempt categorical parole. Also, I think2482to get better control and restore integrity to our legal2483immigration system because when people know that there are2484loopholes that exist, they come to try to take advantage of2485that.2486    Mr. McClintock. Thank you.2487    Mr. Fry. Close the loopholes. Well said.2488    I yield back. Thank you.2489    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman's time has expired.2490    Mr. Nadler.2491    Mr. Nadler. Mr. Chair, the flurry of Executive Orders2492signed by President Trump on Monday promised little more than2493the cast and cruelty we became accustomed to in his first term.2494His radical anti-immigration agenda will separate families,2495decimate our economy, and strike fear in our communities.2496    With the stroke of a pen, he has revived the harsh and2497inhumane policies of his previous administration, such as the2498Remain in Mexico program, eliminated enforcement priorities,2499sharply reduced the availability of humanitarian parole, begun2500dismantling the refugee program, and launched a breathtaking2501assault on the Constitution by attempting to end birth right2502citizenship.2503    The Trump Administration's policy of mass deportation and2504destroying legal pathways wrapped as always in a blanket of2505hateful rhetoric will not fix our broken immigration system. It2506will only make it harder to reach the bipartisan comprehensive2507solutions that are so desperately needed.2508    Mr. Bier, thank you for being here today. Republicans are2509using this hearing to lay the foundation for their own anti-2510immigration agenda. So, I want to start with some important2511facts about the State of the border today.2512    One, when President Biden left office earlier this week,2513were unauthorized crossings higher or lower than they were when2514President Trump left office?2515    Mr. Bier. They were much lower, significantly lower, about251633 percent lower than when President Trump left office.2517    Mr. Nadler. Thank you.2518    What about evasions of border patrol officers? Were they2519higher at the end of President Trump's first term or President2520Biden's?2521    Mr. Bier. They were 42 percent lower at the end of Biden's2522term than at the end of Trump's, and Trump's increased evasions2523over the course of his four years.2524    Mr. Nadler. Isn't it true that unlawful encounters at the2525border were trending upwards long before President Biden took2526office?2527    Mr. Bier. Every month after April 2020, it increased. He2528keeps pointing to April 2020, when the pandemic started, and2529unemployment spiked. Every month after that we saw increases in2530illegal immigration and border crossings and evasions of border2531patrol.2532    Mr. Nadler. Thank you.2533    I want to turn now to the Executive Order that purports to2534end birth right citizenship. This Executive Order prevents the2535children of immigrants, both those whose parents have a lawful2536immigration status, like a work visa, and those whose parents2537are undocumented, who are born in the United States from being2538able to obtain documents to demonstrate that they are citizens2539of the United States.2540    Can you please talk about how this would work in practice2541and the sort of chaos that will ensue if this order is actually2542allowed to go forward?2543    Mr. Bier. Absolutely. This is going to apply to every2544single American child born in the United States. You will have2545to prove the status and citizenship.2546    Mr. Nadler. Every child. Not just those of undocumented2547immigrants.2548    Mr. Bier. Exactly. My family is going to go through this in2549a few months. We're going to have to prove the citizenship of2550the parents of the child. Of course, we can do that. If you2551don't have a passport, according to this order, you don't have2552proof of citizenship. Your birth certificate isn't enough. So,2553you will have to go through the rabbit hole. I'll have to prove2554my parents' citizenship and paperwork.2555    This is the insanity of this order from an administrative2556perspective. It's going to burden every single American. It's2557going to call into question all our citizenship. Looking2558forward, it's going to create a lot of people who are in2559Stateless situations where they don't have citizenship of any2560country and can be subject to removal even though they were2561born here. They grew up here.2562    They are Americans. This is an attack on Americans and our2563rights.2564    Mr. Nadler. Let's give a specific example the impact this2565Executive Order can have. Extensive green card backlogs for2566high skilled workers mean that H-1B visa holders must wait2567decades and even centuries before a green card is available to2568them.2569    Right now, if both parents have H-1B status, a child who2570was born abroad but who has lived in the United States nearly2571their entire lives must leave the country when they turn 212572unless they have their own immigration status. That's bad2573enough. Under this Executive Order, even children born in the2574U.S. to such parents might have to self deport because they2575would be denied citizenship at birth.2576    Mr. Bier, does it make sense to send children who were born2577in the United States to countries that they don't know, they2578never have been to, and where they have no support network?2579    Mr. Bier. No, it absolutely does not. It makes the country2580weaker. It discourages legal immigration. It discourages high-2581skilled immigration.2582    Look, when I talk to a lot of high skilled immigrants in2583this country, they talk about their family. They talk about the2584hope they have for their children to be Americans, to grow up2585in this country and to contribute to this country. We should2586want them here. We should want to encourage them to stay.2587    One of the greatest things the United States has ever done2588is had birth-right citizenship because it encourages2589assimilation. Everyone who is born here knows I'm an American.2590I can participate in our democracy and contribute to this2591country.2592    Mr. Nadler. Contrary to the President's assertion that only2593one country has birth-right citizenship--33 do.2594    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman's time has expired.2595    Mr. Nadler. I yield back.2596    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Hunt.2597    Mr. Hunt. Thank you, Mr. Chair.2598    Biden attempted to reimagine immigration in America. Biden2599wanted you to think that it was normal to live in an America2600with open borders, to live in an America with sanctuary cities,2601to fly 30,000 people per month from Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, and2602Venezuela into America on commercial flights, to turn temporary2603protected status into permanent protected status. That is not2604normal. It is not constitutional. Now, thank God, it's over.2605    Do you want to know what is normal? President Trump's2606policies are normal, and he's back and he is here to help.2607Within hours of Trump taking office, President Trump deleted2608the CBP One app, reformed the parole program, and placed a real2609border czar, Tom Holman, in charge, and he is a serious man.2610    Trump also signed a flurry of Executive Orders restoring2611normal border security and immigration standards to this great2612Nation. Again, thank God, he's back.2613    When Trump got elected, we knew that the liberal media2614would--we knew exactly what they would do because they did the2615same thing during a previous Trump Administration. We knew that2616they would attempt to pull our heartstrings to shame us into2617changing our standard immigration laws. In fact, on the day2618that President Trump got inaugurated, the liberal media posted2619a story of a woman crying when her CBP One app appointment was2620canceled.2621    That tactic is not going to work this time because we have2622seen firsthand for the last four years the devastating effects2623that Biden's border policies have had on all Americans. While I2624empathize with everyone who wants to come to America because,2625again, we know this is the greatest place in the world, this2626compassion is misplaced as it usually is with the left.2627    The woman's tears that I care the most about are the2628mothers of Laken Riley, Jocelyn Nungaray, and Rachel Morin.2629Laken Riley was killed by an illegal alien while out on a jog.2630It should be known that her killer committed a crime in another2631American city, but he was released because that city, you2632guessed it, was a sanctuary city.2633    Jocelyn, while on her way to a convenient store, was killed2634by two illegal aliens who entered through the Southern border2635just a few months earlier. By the time these illegal aliens--at2636the time, these illegal aliens were still wearing their U.S.-2637issued ankle tracking monitors when they killed her.2638    Ms. Morin, a young mother of five children was hiking on a2639Maryland trail when an illegal alien attacked and killed her.2640    I could sadly name many more circumstances just like this.2641    I don't know about other countries, but in America, our2642daughters, and I have two of them, should be able to go for a2643jog and a run or to a convenient store without the fear of an2644illegal alien killing them. That goes for all our children in2645this Nation. I serve this country to protect my children and2646our sons and daughters.2647    Mr. Fabbricatore, thank you so much for being here, as2648always. You're one of my favorites.2649    Mr. Fabbricatore. Thank you.2650    Mr. Hunt. One of the Executive Orders that President Trump2651has enacted so far, of them which one do you think is going to2652be the most helpful and why?2653    Mr. Fabbricatore. All the Executive Orders that he's2654putting through are going to be--they are needed. There is a2655reason why he did it.2656    (1) Securing our border. Making sure that CBP app is no2657longer being used so that there's fraud coming into this2658country. Overall everything that President Trump is trying to2659do for the border is for the right reason.2660    (2) The priority should be protecting American citizens,2661and that was the goal of President Trump.2662    Mr. Hunt. Thank you.2663    Ms. Vaughn, given these last few Executive Orders, as well,2664I'd like your take on it. Do you think it is going to improve2665our border and our immigration status, or is it going to hurt2666our immigration status, just out of curiosity?2667    Ms. Vaughn. The set of Executive Orders are definitely2668going to improve our immigration status, especially the one2669that rescinded the Biden Orders. I especially look forward to2670the one that is going to increase State and local partnerships2671with Federal authorities to work on this common mission.2672    Mr. Hunt. Thank you, ma'am.2673    I'll leave you with this. Do not allow the left to gaslight2674you. Secure borders are normal. I am someone who was deployed2675all over the world. Every other country would never behave and2676allow 20 million people to enter their country illegally.2677That's not normal. So, thank God we're going to get back to2678normalcy.2679    Thank you all for leading our charge.2680    I yield back the remainder of my time.2681    Mr. McClintock. Thank you.2682    Mr. Knott.2683    Mr. Knott. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Witnesses, thank you for2684being here.2685    Before I ask any questions, let me State from a first-2686person perspective that I had the privilege of serving under2687both the Biden and the Trump Administrations. I was a Federal2688prosecutor who focused exclusively on organized crime. The idea2689that both administrations were committed to applying the law as2690it relates to both organized crime and specifically how illegal2691immigration infested organized crime is laughable. It's2692demonstrably not true.2693    On day one of the Biden's Department of Justice in 2021,2694prosecutors that I worked with had been exclusively assigned to2695prosecuting illegal reentries and immigration offenses, those2696individuals were either reassigned or let go. Many of them are2697no longer with the Department of Justice.2698    This tracks when you look at the number of illegal2699reentries. These are people who were removed after having been2700convicted of a crime and then come back a second time. The2701number of those prosecutions, the number of those sentences and2702convictions decreased precipitously under the Biden2703Administration despite millions and millions of more illegal2704crossers.2705    Second, this bureaucratic and administrative effect that I2706saw from the prosecutor side, it applied equally to the law2707enforcement side. I'm sure you know, sir, from your contact2708with the border patrol, with DEA, with ATF and other Federal2709law enforcement that these bureaucratic hurdles made it very2710difficult to investigate, to prosecute, to even submit cases2711that dealt with illegal immigration.2712    For whatever reason, it was flatly deprioritized in terms2713of a law enforcement mechanism that the Department of Justice2714was unable to bring these cases to the grand jury to charge2715them and to work them over the last four years.2716    Now, I want to go and ask a few questions. Ms. Vaughn, you2717specifically mentioned just now that there were very little2718disin-centivizing illegal immigration. Can you expand on that2719just broadly speaking? Were there any disincentives to any2720person who wanted to cross illegally into the United States2721over the last four years?2722    Ms. Vaughn. No. People understood that if they could make2723it to the U.S. border, that they almost certainly were going to2724be released into the country, possibly issued a work permit,2725and would not expect any threat of removal or consequences for2726their illegal entry for the foreseeable future.2727    Mr. Knott. Mr. Newman, were there any disincentives that2728you saw over the last four years implemented by the Biden2729Administration specifically to disincentivize illegal2730immigration?2731    Mr. Newman. No, not many at all. As Jessica just mentioned,2732Mrs. Vaughn just mentioned, getting paroled, those are obvious2733incentives to coming in. Also, as was mentioned before,2734deprioritizing illegal immigration crimes meant people knew2735they could just come in and basically vanish into the country,2736and they did. That's why we have more illegal aliens in the2737country now than we did four years ago.2738    Mr. Knott. Isn't it true, sir, that the border does have2739vast swaths of the mileage that were unsupervised by order by2740the border patrol? That emanated from Washington, obviously,2741but it was implemented with huge holes in the border?2742    Mr. Newman. Yes.2743    Mr. Knott. So, therefore, it's entirely foreseeable that2744tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, even millions,2745potentially, could have come across the border without contact?2746    Mr. Newman. Yes.2747    Mr. Knott. Ms. Vaughn, I want to talk to you about how the2748cartels exploited these loopholes. Over the last four years,2749the price of drugs in many respects have gone down2750precipitously. That's an increase of supply. I saw this in my2751job.2752    How have cartels exploited the open border in the last four2753years?2754    Ms. Vaughn. Well, they've reaped enormous revenue from it.2755Something like $13 billion a year.2756    Mr. Knott. That's just known, by the way.2757    Ms. Vaughn. Right.2758    They have enticed migrants because they could confidently2759assure their customers that they would succeed in getting into2760the U.S., and then often they hooked them up with jobs and told2761them that they would have to pay off the remainder of their2762smuggling fee by giving back some of the wages that they were2763earning. All determined by the cartel. Pay for housing,2764transportation, food, all kinds of other expenses they have in2765what was a debt bondage or labor trafficking situation. That's2766how they took advantage of these people.2767    Mr. Knott. That's still going on right now?2768    Ms. Vaughn. Oh, absolutely.2769    Mr. Knott. That infrastructure is in place?2770    Ms. Vaughn. Yes.2771    Mr. Knott. Correct. That leads to more or less dangerous2772crime?2773    Ms. Vaughn. Oh, more.2774    Mr. Knott. More or less gang violence?2775    Ms. Vaughn. One of the ways that they can get people to pay2776off their debt is to participate in drug trafficking.2777    Mr. Knott. More or less overdose deaths?2778    Ms. Vaughn. More.2779    Mr. Knott. Sir, briefly, can you describe the impact on2780local, non-Federal law enforcement that these open border2781policies have had?2782    Mr. Fabbricatore. It's made it so it's very hard for local2783law enforcement to respond to anything. They're focused on many2784more additional crimes. When the Cato Institute says that2785illegal immigrants commit half less than U.S. citizens, it2786doesn't matter how much they're committing. It's adding to what2787local law enforcement has to respond to.2788    Mr. Knott. Right.2789    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman's time has expired.2790    Mr. Knott. Yes, sir.2791    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Onder.2792    Mr. Onder. Thank you, Mr. Chair.2793    Today I do have some questions, but first I wanted to2794address some absurdities to which this Committee was treated2795today.2796    First, we have the absurdity from Ranking Member Raskin2797that somehow the 2024 Senate immigration bill was the solution2798to our border crisis. No one believes that. It failed because2799it was a lousy bill. It was an amnesty bill. In fact, it was2800such a bad bill that it failed to--somehow the idea that House2801Republicans are responsible for its demise is absurd because it2802failed in the Senate 43 to 50, including six Democrats voting2803no.2804    Meanwhile, the Senate Democrats refused to take up a real2805border security bill, H.R. 2.2806    Second, the absurdity that somehow, somehow anchor babies2807should have birth right citizenship under the 14th Amendment.2808Yes, I said it, anchor babies, because that is the appropriate2809term. These babies serve as anchors to prevent deportation of2810illegal aliens.2811    As it was said earlier, the 14th Amendment involved slaves2812after the civil war to prevent Democrat Southerners from2813depriving those freed slaves of their civil rights.2814    This idea of birth right citizenship for anchor babies was2815invented out of whole cloth in a footnote, dicta, not even the2816actual decision by Justice Brennan in 1982. So, I applaud2817President Trump for that Executive Order.2818    Then, finally, the absurdity that somehow things were2819better under President Biden than under President Trump. It's2820nice that our libertarian friends at Cato remind us that2821illegal aliens pay some taxes. That's nice. I would also remind2822you that the great libertarian and economist Milton Friedman2823once famously said, ``you cannot have a welfare State and open2824borders.''2825    Those illegal aliens cost us in healthcare expenses and2826education expenses and, of course, in social welfare expenses2827and devastate those programs.2828    Mr. Fabbricatore, I'm a medical doctor. I practiced2829medicine for 30 years. In the early years of my practice, we2830worried a lot about drugs in terms of overprescription of2831narcotics by physicians, and we worried about meth dealers2832making methamphetamine out of Sudafed often in rural areas.2833    Today, though, we have 100,000 deaths from fentanyl. The2834great majority of it crosses our Southern border. Then, and a2835lot of people forget this, 50,000 deaths from methamphetamine.2836It's not made in a trailer in rural Missouri anymore. It's made2837in Mexico and comes across our Southern border.2838    Could you--this is kind of a followup question to the2839question Representative Knott asked Ms. Vaughn. How has our2840porous border contributed to the drug problem in the United2841States?2842    Mr. Fabbricatore. The cartel is all about profit. So, if2843they can make a profit in the United States, they're going to2844make sure that they do so.2845    With the fentanyl that we've had coming in, it's been a2846boom to the cartels. It's been a boom. They don't care that2847100,000 United States citizens are dying. That's the cost of2848business to them.2849    We should be going after the cartels for poisoning our2850United States citizens. We're losing 100,000 people a year just2851off this one drug, and we've done nothing about it this in last2852four years. Well, I think that's going to stop now, and we're2853going to go directly after the cartels for killing our United2854States citizens.2855    Mr. Onder. The cartel leaders are terrorists. I think2856Trump's Executive Order makes them eligible for the Suamani2857treatment.2858    Ms. Vaughn, you touched most on the idea of visa abuse. In2859my district in Missouri, an illegal alien once while driving an2860Uber and once while driving a Lift sexually assaulted two young2861women in my district. Now, he was a tourist visa overstayer.2862    Is there anything we can do to crack down on this very2863common source of illegal immigration, which is coming legally2864but then overstaying a visa?2865    Ms. Vaughn. Yes, there are a number of things, not one2866silver bullet, but if we take away the ability of people to2867work here, that's a disincentive to overstay. We can also lean2868on the State Department and enact requirements for them to2869adjust their visa issuance protocols to address high overstay2870rates.2871    ICE needs to do more enforcement on overstays, frankly. I2872would, also, like to see a way to hold the sponsors of some of2873these visa holders responsible for too much overstaying.2874    Mr. Onder. Very good. Thank you.2875    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman's time has expired.2876    Mr. Schmidt.2877    Mr. Schmidt. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for conducting2878this hearing to kick off this Congress. There is no more2879important subject than the security of our Nation and of moving2880away from these horrific policies that have abandoned that2881security in the name of political correctness or in the name of2882some sort of social engineering or in the name of political2883expediency.2884    I've been listening to this discussion today, and it2885strikes me that, perhaps, Washington does what so many2886Americans thinks Washington can do, which is talk ceaselessly2887about things that have little connection to their actual lives.2888    Over the past 12 years, I led a State law enforcement2889agency in my home State of Kansas. I've been thinking on this2890dais about cases we actually worked. Thinking about a case in2891which a young man, I think he was 26, was running drugs for the2892cartels. He was driving North on a U.S. highway. He was stopped2893by an Oklahoma law enforcement officer. He panicked. He shot2894the officer in the head. By the grace of God, the officer is2895still alive to this day.2896    He then came across the border where our officers stopped2897his vehicle with stop sticks. He fled on foot. He carjacked the2898vehicle of an old man in the middle of the night. He fled a2899high-speed pursuit up a highway in Kansas. He realized he was2900going to be caught. He pulled over to the side of the highway.2901He invaded a home. By the grace of God, nobody was home. He2902then shot at our officers.2903    I had a lengthy discussion with my counterpart in Oklahoma2904over who got to prosecute him first. We both sent him to prison2905for the rest of his life under our respective State laws.2906    I'm thinking about a case in Johnson County, Kansas, where2907an illegal alien in this country was drunk one night, and he2908struck and killed a sheriff's deputy who had done nothing but2909his job. He pulled over a citizen who was driving erratically2910on the side of the highway, and the drunken driver, who never2911should have been in this country, killed that young man. I2912attended his funeral.2913    I'm thinking about a case in a very small county in North2914central Kansas where an illegal alien came to this country,2915raped a child, and we sent him to prison for the rest of his2916life under the laws of the State of Kansas not because he was2917an illegal alien but because he raped a child in our State.2918    I'm thinking about a case in Northwest Kansas where an2919illegal alien came in, in a very small county, and murdered his2920domestic partner. We sent him to prison for the rest of his2921life.2922    I'm thinking about a case in Southwest Kansas where the2923same thing happened, an illegal alien joined up with some2924lawfully present citizens, stole a car, and then decided to2925kill the witness. We wound up sending that individual to prison2926for the rest of his life.2927    That's just the cases I can think of sitting here that we2928handled at a State level in a State where the vast majority of2929criminal activity is handled by local authorities, not by the2930State of Kansas. Think of the volume that we're talking about2931here and how offensive it is to those victims and their2932families to say statistically illegal aliens don't kill people2933at a higher rate than anybody who actually lives here. Give me2934a break.2935    I have a couple of questions for you. I'd like to know--2936obviously, we've talked a great deal about how enforcement2937priority and policy priorities in this town affect cooperation2938and interactive out in the real world where Federal law2939enforcement actually work with State law enforcement. They're2940not getting orders out of this town.2941    They do their jobs to keep our communities safe and don't2942worry so much about who is doing what. They just want to get2943the job done. It certainly works that way in my State of2944Kansas.2945    Yet, we fight with folks in this town all the way from the2946operational level. I'm thinking of a briefing that was canceled2947where I was supposed to go get a briefing from ICE, and folks2948in this town ordered the local agents not to talk to us because2949I was a Republican, and we weren't supposed to get access to2950that information from line enforcement officers.2951    All the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. I'm thinking of a2952case we argued and actually won back in 2020 that allowed2953States to prosecute illegal aliens who commit crimes under the2954jurisdiction of our State and were not preempt.2955    So, here is my question for you, and I'll go to Mr.2956Fabbricatore because he has operational law enforcement2957experience.2958    As we figure out what we can actually agree on here that2959can make a difference, should we or should we not explore the2960idea of expanding cooperation between local and State law2961enforcement on the one hand and Federal law enforcement on the2962other.2963    Mr. Fabbricatore. Congressman Schmidt, absolutely. Look,2964working with Federal law enforcement, local law enforcement,2965county level, all levels of law enforcement make the United2966States safe. When we're able to join together and cooperate, we2967only make the community safer.2968    Mr. Schmidt. What about State and local prosecutors on the2969one hand or Federal prosecutors on the other hand? There are2970thousands of State and local prosecutors who encounter the vast2971majority of criminal aliens. Very few Federal authority. Should2972we work on expanding cooperation between Federal and State2973prosecuting authorities?2974    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, absolutely. Any work that we can do2975together is going to make sure that we can make sure that we're2976going after criminals.2977    Mr. Schmidt. So, too, with respect to State courts where2978the vast majority of these crimes are prosecuted. Should we2979work on expanding the ability of State courts to assist us in2980enforcing our immigration laws?2981    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes.2982    Mr. Schmidt. Thank you very much.2983    Mr. Chair, thank you.2984    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Gill.2985    Mr. Gill. Thank you, Mr. Chair.2986    Nothing excites me more than the thought of President Trump2987initiating the largest deportation operation in American2988history.2989    I'd like to remind the Committee that the purpose of our2990immigration system is for the benefit of American citizens, not2991foreigners or anybody else.2992    For the past four years, Democrats have facilitated the2993invasion of over 10 million illegal aliens into our country.2994Open borders grow the welfare State. They depress American2995wages, strain our education and healthcare system, price our2996working class out of owning a home, and flood our communities2997with violence and drugs.2998    Mr. Bier, as well as my colleagues on the other side of the2999aisle, you're intellectualizing about illegal alien crime3000notwithstanding, I'd like to remind you that the correct number3001of American citizens murdered or raped by illegal aliens is3002zero. Americans have learned firsthand that importing the Third3003World will turn America into the Third World.3004    In light of the chaos of the past four years, the question3005that has come up earlier is why are our Democrat colleagues so3006determined to flood our country with millions of illegal3007aliens? I'd like to suggest that perhaps it's because they3008benefit from it politically.3009    Remember that every State is apportioned Congressional3010seats based on population, not based on citizenship. Counting3011noncitizens in Congressional apportionment has resulted in more3012seats for Blue States and fewer Congressional seats for Red3013States.3014    For instance, excluding noncitizens, an estimated--3015California, excuse me, would have an estimated three fewer3016Congressional seats. In Ohio, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia,3017traditionally Red States, would each have an estimated one3018additional seat.3019    Right now, in a political environment where Republicans3020have a two-seat majority in the House of Representatives, the3021presence of millions of illegal aliens in America could quite3022literally change the balance of power in our country.3023    The problem doesn't stop at Congressional apportionment.3024The ultimate goal of mass illegal immigration is mass amnesty3025and citizenship for illegal aliens, which, of course, means3026ultimately allowing them to vote. That's not a conspiracy3027theory either.3028    Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer himself said it just3029two years ago, and I'm quoting him,30303031        Our ultimate goal is to help the dreamers, but get a path to3032        citizenship for all 11 million, or however many undocumented3033        there are here.30343035That is their words, not mine.3036    It appears that for the past four years, providing a path3037to citizenship for illegal aliens is precisely what the Biden3038Administration has been doing.3039    Ms. Vaughn, thanks for being here. Can you explain how3040through various programs the Biden Administration, either via3041lax enforcement or through facilitating abuses, provided a path3042to citizenship for illegal aliens?3043    Ms. Vaughn. Well, the main way that that has occurred, at3044least the most significant, are these programs that allow3045people who have made it into the country to obtain a status and3046a work permit, some of which do put them on the path to getting3047a green card.3048    For example, there is the OPT program, which allows either3049foreign nationals who have attended U.S. schools or who3050enrolled in one of these bogus strip small schools that enables3051them to get a work permit through the OPT program, that is3052meant to be for many of them a bridge to another more permanent3053guest worker program, such as H-1B. Because once they get the3054H-1B, then they can continue to extend that.3055    There are also programs like the U and the T visas, which3056start with a work permit and eventually, once they're3057adjudicated, without much review, allow them to receive a green3058card, which is a path to citizenship.3059    There are others, including temporary protected status,3060which are like a de facto permanent status at this point3061because they're never rescinded.3062    These are not small. We're talking about probably about two3063million people who are in these kind of quasi legal programs3064that get to stay here and be considered constituents.3065    Mr. Gill. So, two million people who have a path to3066citizenship right now. This isn't a theoretical or a3067hypothetical problem. This is happening right now. The3068political party that has nothing to offer voters, but3069inflation, censorship, and transgenderism is weaponizing mass3070illegal immigration to their own political benefit.3071    With that, I yield. Thank you.3072    Mr. McClintock. Thank you. The gentleman's time has3073expired.3074    I'll yield myself five minutes for questions. I think we've3075come to an agreement on at least one point and that is that our3076immigration laws are broken. The Democrats think they're broken3077because they don't stop Presidents like Trump from securing our3078borders. The Republicans think they're broken because they3079don't stop Presidents like Biden from opening our borders.3080    I think the most illuminating testimony that we've had3081today came from the Democrat's witness who opined that the3082enforcement of our immigration laws was vastly better under3083Biden than it is under Trump. That is a difference of opinion3084that we periodically resolve through our elections. From the3085last election, it is very clear that the American people agree3086with us, and they have given us the responsibility and the3087authority to change these laws so that they can never again be3088evaded and mocked by a future Democratic administration.3089    Ms. Vaughn, I want to begin with the abuse of our asylum3090process, which I think is one of the biggest problems that we3091face. We all know the vast majority of asylum claims turn out3092to be bogus. Under the Biden Administration, just making that3093claim got you immediate admittance into our country, a lot of3094free stuff. You were assured that your claim wouldn't be heard3095for many years, and once it was rejected and you were ordered3096by a court deported, that order wouldn't be enforced.3097    Obviously, Remain in Mexico took a lot of the incentive out3098of making these false claims, and, of course, one of President3099Trump's first orders reinstates that policy.3100    It seems to me we need to assure permanence of that policy,3101and we also need to be clear that asylum is reserved for those3102who have been singled out by their own government for3103persecution because of their religion, race, or political3104views. Under international law, once you have crossed that3105first international border, you have now separated yourself3106from that government.3107    You have the right to apply for asylum in that country that3108you first crossed into. You do not have the right to pass3109through five other countries because you want free stuff from3110Americans.3111    It also seems to me that if you break our laws to enter our3112country, you should forfeit any claim to asylum because you've3113already expressed your intention to disobey our laws.3114    What do we need to do to reinstate these principles and3115assure that future Presidents can't circumvent them?3116    Ms. Vaughn. Well, the asylum system is one of the biggest3117loopholes in our immigration law right now that's routinely3118exploited, and that's why we need legislation to actually3119codify provisions to address the problems that you've3120mentioned. For example, to make it clear that you must enter3121through a legal port of entry, that you're not going to qualify3122for asylum if you've passed through a safe third country, or if3123you could have relocated within your own country.3124    We're getting a lot of people at our border now who have3125been firmly resettled in other countries before coming here to3126take advantage of the open border and the parole policies.3127    Mr. McClintock. So, are those principles missing from our3128current asylum law, and we need to place them in it, or are3129they simply being ignored?3130    Ms. Vaughn. The clarification is missing. I think that3131there are different ways you could interpret our law, but3132they're not going to be effective. H.R. 2 closed a lot of those3133loopholes.3134    Mr. McClintock. Your guidance on what else needs to be done3135to ensure that this doesn't happen again would be much3136appreciated.3137    Mr. Fabbricatore, the sanctuary policies, what do those3138laws do exactly?3139    Mr. Fabbricatore. They don't protect American citizens.3140They protect criminal aliens, and we've seen that happen in the3141U.S. with the rise of Tren de Aragua in these sanctuary cities.3142    Mr. McClintock. In fact, it's the immigrant community from3143which they arise that is the most victimized by them, isn't it?3144    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, sir.3145    Mr. McClintock. I would think that a family at the3146Roosevelt Hotel in New York is far more likely to be preyed on3147by these cartels and criminal gangs than somebody living in3148Scarsdale, for example.3149    Mr. Fabbricatore. Initially, they prey on their own, sir,3150yes.3151    Mr. McClintock. So, what can we do about these sanctuary3152jurisdictions?3153    Mr. Fabbricatore. Well, we need to look at any kind of3154defund-3155ing that we can do. We need to make sure that ICE is going into3156these communities and they can work with local law enforcement.3157If we're really serious about keeping American citizens safe,3158we have to be serious about letting law enforcement work3159together to keep American citizens safe. That's not going to3160happen as long as we have these sanctuary jurisdictions that3161don't allow local law enforcement to give information to ICE.3162    Sanctuary jurisdiction in Colorado, probation cannot even3163let ICE know when somebody gets taken out of jail and put on3164probation. That's someone who is convicted of a crime that's3165going out onto the street and that probation officer cannot let3166ICE know when they're going on probation.3167    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Newman, my time is about to expire, but3168I would like to ask you to put in a response regarding the TPS3169and parole abuses of the past administration and what we can do3170to assure that's never done again. I'm now out of time, so if3171you could give that to us in writing, we will pay very close3172attention to it.3173    Mr. Newman. Absolutely.3174    Mr. McClintock. With that, I believe we are ready to3175conclude today's hearing.3176    I want to thank our witnesses for appearing. I think this3177was a very illuminating hearing on both sides.3178    Without objection, all Members will have five legislative3179days to submit additional written questions for the witnesses3180or additional material for the record.3181    With that, and without objection, the hearing is adjourned.3182    [Whereupon, at 12:46 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]31833184    All materials submitted for the record by the Members of3185the Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity, Security, and3186Enforce-3187ment can be found at the following links: https://3188docs.house.gov/3189Committee/Calendar/ByEvent.aspx?EventID=117827.31903191                                 [all]