“Emerging Global Threats: Putting America’s National Security First”

1[House Hearing, 119 Congress]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                             THE GOVERNMENT5                          ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE'S6                          2025 HIGH RISK LIST78=======================================================================910                                HEARING1112                               BEFORE THE1314                         COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT15                         AND GOVERNMENT REFORM16                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES1718                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS1920                             FIRST SESSION2122                               __________2324                           FEBRUARY 25, 20252526                               __________2728                            Serial No. 119-72930                               __________3132Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform3334[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]3536                       Available on: govinfo.gov,37                         oversight.house.gov or38                             docs.house.gov3940                               __________4142                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE4358-998 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 20254445-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------4647              COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM4849                    JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman5051Jim Jordan, Ohio                     Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia,52Mike Turner, Ohio                        Ranking Minority Member53Paul Gosar, Arizona                  Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of54Virginia Foxx, North Carolina            Columbia55Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin            Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts56Michael Cloud, Texas                 Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois57Gary Palmer, Alabama                 Ro Khanna, California58Clay Higgins, Louisiana              Kweisi Mfume, Maryland59Pete Sessions, Texas                 Shontel Brown, Ohio60Andy Biggs, Arizona                  Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico61Nancy Mace, South Carolina           Robert Garcia, California62Pat Fallon, Texas                    Maxwell Frost, Florida63Byron Donalds, Florida               Summer Lee, Pennsylvania64Scott Perry, Pennsylvania            Greg Casar, Texas65William Timmons, South Carolina      Jasmine Crockett, Texas66Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Emily Randall, Washington67Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia      Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia68Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Yassamin Ansari, Arizona69Anna Paulina Luna, Florida           Wesley Bell, Missouri70Nick Langworthy, New York            Lateefah Simon, California71Eric Burlison, Missouri              Dave Min, California72Eli Crane, Arizona                   Ayanna Pressley, Massachusetts73Brian Jack, Georgia                  Rashida Tlaib, Michigan74John McGuire, Virginia75Brandon Gill, Texas7677                                 ------7879                       Mark Marin, Staff Director80                   James Rust, Deputy Staff Director81                     Mitch Benzine, General Counsel82                 Billy Grant, Professional Staff Member83                 Emily Allen, Professional Staff Member84      Mallory Cogar, Deputy Director of Operations and Chief Clerk8586                      Contact Number: 202-225-50748788                  Jamie Smith, Minority Staff Director89                      Contact Number: 202-225-50519091                                 ------9293                          C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S9495                              ----------9697                                                                   Page9899Hearing held on February 25, 2025................................     1100101                               WITNESSES102103                              ----------104105The Honorable Gene L. Dodaro, Comptroller General, Government106  Accountability Office107Oral Statement...................................................     4108109Written opening statements and bios are available on the U.S.110  House of Representatives Document Repository at:111  docs.house.gov.112113                           INDEX OF DOCUMENTS114115                              ----------116117  * Statement for the Record, Shared Services Leadership118    Coalition; submitted by Chairman Comer.119120  * Report, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs's Office of the121    Inspector General; ``Determination of VHA's Staffing122    Shortages''; submitted by Rep. Lynch.123124  * Article, Business Insider, ``Dogecoin Cocreator Says Musk Is125    A Grifter Who Couldn't Run Code''; submitted by Rep.126    Pressley.127128  * Article, New York Times, ``DOGE Quietly Deletes 5 Biggest129    Spending Cuts''; submitted by Rep. Subramanyam.130131The documents listed are available at: docs.house.gov.132133                          ADDITIONAL DOCUMENTS134135                              ----------136137  * Questions for the Record: Mr. Dodaro; submitted by Rep. Foxx.138139These documents were submitted after the hearing, and may be140  available upon request.141142                             THE GOVERNMENT143                        ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE'S144                          2025 HIGH RISK LIST145146                              ----------147148                       Tuesday, February 25, 2025149150                     U.S. House of Representatives151152              Committee on Oversight and Government Reform153154                                           Washington, D.C.155156    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:36 p.m., in157room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. James Comer158[Chairman of the Committee] presiding.159    Present: Representatives Comer, Gosar, Foxx, Grothman,160Cloud, Higgins, Biggs, Mace, Fallon, Donalds, Perry, Timmons,161Burchett, Greene, Burlison, Crane, Jack, McGuire, Gill,162Connolly, Norton, Lynch, Khanna, Brown, Stansbury, Garcia,163Frost, Lee, Crockett, Subramanyam, Ansari, Bell, Simon, Min,164Pressley, and Tlaib.165    Chairman Comer. This hearing of the Committee on Oversight166and Government Reform will come to order. I want to welcome167everyone back.168    Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any169time.170    I now recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening171statement.172    Welcome to today's Oversight Committee hearing on the173Government Accountability Office's 2025 High Risk List. Before174we get started, I want to recognize that this will be the175Comptroller General Dodaro's final time testifying on the High176Risk List as he is set to retire later this year. I want to177thank you, Mr. Dodaro, for your decades of service to the178United States. Under your leadership, GAO has done excellent179work to expose waste, fraud, abuse in the Federal Government180and provide recommendations to prevent it.181    At the start of each new Congress, the GAO publishes a High182Risk List to update us on programs ripe for congressional183oversight and action. The 38 areas on this year's report all184present either a financial risk of loss of at least $1 billion185taxpayer dollars, or they present a risk involving public186health or safety, delivery of essential services to Americans,187national security concerns, privacy, economic growth, or the188rights of citizens. These potential billions of dollars could189be better utilized for lowering taxes, improving roads, or190making everyday life more affordable for the American people.191The average American works too hard to see tax dollars wasted.192My goal with this hearing is simple: to make sure the taxpayer193dollars is being spent wisely and to get more of it back to194Americans' pockets, where it belongs.195    This list helps track the progress of deficiencies of196programs so that Congress can perform oversight to promote197efficient and effective use of taxpayer money. The Federal198Government programs created and funded by Congress must stay199true to their intended purpose, meet the stated objectives, and200remain stewards of taxpayer dollars. However, year after year,201bloated Federal programs managed by the Federal bureaucracy202continue to fall short of their goals and are often plagued by203fraud and abuse.204    Despite the excellent reports by GAO each year, there205continues to be rampant waste, fraud, and abuse across the206Federal Government. For more than 30 years, GAO has provided207Members of Congress with this report, yet familiar programs208remain on this list now which were there in the very beginning.209Americans are tired of the Federal Government failing its210report card. The American people elected President Trump to211drain the swamp and rein in the runaway bureaucracy, and212President Trump is delivering on this promise.213    President Trump has tasked DOGE with conducting a214governmentwide audit to eliminate Washington waste. GAO's215extensive reports and recommendations to the executive branch216have given DOGE a strong starting point as it takes on the217Federal bureaucracy. DOGE is taking note of GAO's critical work218in identifying trillions of dollars lost to improper payments219made by programs like Medicaid and unemployment insurance, and220now DOGE is taking action to address the root causes of221improper payments. DOGE has recognized GAO's reports on the222need to modernize IT for a more efficient and effective Federal223Government, and Elon Musk and his A team are working on224solutions to make that happen. The GAO's High Risk List225includes the Department of Defense's financial management. DoD,226I will remind everyone, has failed audits for 7 years in a row.227Under President Trump's leadership, Secretary Hegseth is going228to work with DOGE to finally address this.229    Now more than ever, GAO's work tells us that we need more230data, more tracking of funds, more oversight and, yes, more231efficiency to know exactly where taxpayer dollars are going. We232are excited to work with the Trump Administration to continue233our mission of cutting out waste, fraud, and abuse. I look234forward to hearing from Comptroller General Dodaro on the good235work GAO is doing and how this Committee and the Trump236Administration could protect the American people's money from237being wasted by their government. Americans want more than238another report telling them about all the problems in239Washington. They want action to right the ship, and that is240just what President Trump, DOGE, and the Republicans in241Congress are doing for the American people.242    With that, I now yield to the Ranking Member Connolly for243his opening statement.244    Mr. Connolly. I thank the Chair, and I welcome Mr. Dodaro.245This is one of my favorite hearings in the calendar year, and I246think it is also very important. If you really want to get at247waste, fraud, and abuse, and you want to achieve efficiency,248which is the ability to maximize good outcomes while minimizing249waste--wasted time, wasted energy, wasted money--the High Risk250List of GAO is a great place to start. In fact, when this251Committee has paid attention to that list, we have effectuated252serious savings.253    I will give the example. Information technology254modernization, which I focused on in the 16 years I have been255in this Committee, we have saved, according to GAO, $31256billion. So, when we talk about efficiency and trying to257achieve results for the American people, you do not do it by258taking a wrecking ball to the entire structure and hope you get259the bad with the good. You, in fact, take out a scalpel and you260cut out the excess, you cut out the waste, and you do it in a261thoughtful and reflective manner.262    Unlike what the Chairman has just said, I do not believe263President Trump and Elon Musk have, in fact, done that at all.264They have done mass firings, mass resignations, and attempt at265resignations. To fire everyone in a probationary status does266not depict the good from the bad. It is, in fact, to treat267everyone as the same and hope for the best, and our seed corn268is being lost. We need to have talent for the future. The269approach of DOGE so far, and Elon Musk in particular, actually,270is injurious to the future course of skillsets needed in the271Federal Government. We need higher skillsets. We had to replace272a number of workers in the Federal Government who were going to273retire and are eligible for retirement. Unfortunately, the274approach of this Administration so far, led by Mr. Musk and275DOGE, does not do that at all.276    So, I am looking forward to talking about other277opportunities like improper payments, which this Committee278talked about for years. I believe, Mr. Dodaro, that improper279payments add up to something like $281 billion a year. If we280multiply that times 10, that is almost $3 trillion we could281reduce the debt by if we got serious about dealing with282improper payments. When we look at revenue owed to the Federal283Government, owed to IRS, but not collected because of IRS'284inability to audit and collect, that number is anywhere from285$.5 trillion to $1 trillion a year. The last Trump Commissioner286of the IRS said it was $1 trillion a year. Well, if we took287that high number and multiplied it by 10, that is $10 trillion.288That is a third of the national debt almost.289    So, there are things we can do. Another one is legacy290systems, which, again, GAO has talked about. They have291highlighted the top 10 candidates for retirement, legacy292systems of IT, which would save over $331 million a year. The293oldest legacy system, I believe you have identified, Mr.294Dodaro, is 51 years old.295    So, we can do productive things. We can find common ground,296Democrats and Republicans, but we on this side of the aisle are297never going to support a mindless wrecking ball approach to298``achieving efficiency in the Federal Government.'' That is not299how to do it. It will wreak harm in the American people, it300will damage our form of government, and it is not something301that will ever merit our support. I yield back.302    Chairman Comer. The Ranking Member yields back. I am303pleased to welcome today's witness, Comptroller General Gene304Dodaro, who brings more than 50 years of experience at the U.S.305Government Accountability Office and has served as head of the306legislative branch Agency since 2010. The Comptroller General307is serving the final year of his 15-year term. Mr. Dodaro has308testified before Congress 220 times on GAO's recommendations to309improve the performance and operations of the Federal310Government, leading to work that has led to over $1 trillion in311financial benefits to the American taxpayer during his tenure.312Comptroller General Dodaro was influential in developing the313concept and content of the High Risk List, which, over the last31415 years, has averaged financial benefits of about $40 billion315per year. Thank you for joining us. I look forward to our316discussion this afternoon.317    Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witness and his staff318will please stand and raise their right hand.319    Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are320about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but321the truth, so help you God?322    [A chorus of ayes.]323    Chairman Comer. Let the record show that the witnesses324answered in the affirmative. Thank you, and you all may take a325seat.326    We appreciate you being here today and look forward to your327testimony. And I want to remind the Members of the Committee328that when the Comptroller General testifies, he has his staff329with him, and sometimes he will yield to his staff to answer330certain questions, so that is why they were all sworn in.331    Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written332statement. It will appear in full in the hearing record. Please333limit your oral statement, sir, to 5 minutes. As a reminder,334please press the button on the microphone in front of you so335that it is on and the Members can hear you. When you begin to336speak, the light in front of you will turn green. After 4337minutes, it will turn yellow. When the red light comes on, your3385 minutes have expired, and we ask that you would please wrap339it up.340    So, now I recognize Mr. Dodaro for his opening statement.341342                      STATEMENT OF GENE L. DODARO343344                          COMPTROLLER GENERAL345346              U.S. GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE (GAO)347348    Mr. Dodaro. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, Ranking349Member Connolly, Members of the Committee. It is very good to350be here today to talk about GAO's high-risk area, which focuses351on fraud, waste, abuse, mismanagement, but also on broad-based352transformation that is needed for a number of our programs to353achieve greater efficiency and effectiveness in government.354There has been some good progress since our last update. As has355been mentioned, we have saved over $760 billion over time356through implementation of recommendations that have been acted357on by the Congress and the Administration on the high-risk358areas.359    Today, I want to focus on a couple of things. One, we are360adding one new area this year, and that is improving the361delivery of disaster assistance. Storms are becoming more362frequent and intense. In the last 10 years, the Federal363Government has appropriated $500 billion for disaster364assistance. FEMA is stretched way too thin. They are managing365right now over 600 disasters. Some of them go back 20 years.366The system is fragmented. There are over 30 different Federal367agencies involved in delivering assistance. There is confusion,368overlapping regulations. We need reform in that area, and that369is why we are highlighting it.370    There are also opportunities to better manage the cost of371the Federal Government. As has been mentioned by the Chair and372Ranking Member, improper payments remains a very intractable373problem. The last 6 years, there has been over $150 billion374every year in improper payments. That is not even the complete375number. There are a number of programs that are not even376reporting. There is $600 billion net tax gap between the amount377of taxes owed and taxes collected by the IRS. Voluntary378compliance is hovering around 82-85 percent. We can do better379in that area to make sure the government is getting its fair380share of revenue.381    There are many major acquisitions across the government,382including DoD weapon systems. They are on the High List. The383Department of Energy, contracting for nuclear development and384cleanup of our weapons complex. These contracts are385consistently overrun, over budget, and delays occur, and do not386deliver on the promises. Information technology remains a387governmentwide problem. It is designated a governmentwide list.388Acquisitions and operations, the Government spends over $100389billion a year. Most of that goes to maintain existing legacy390systems and not to new technology, so the government is not391harnessing the power.392    Just to give a couple of examples, FAA has 138 air traffic393control systems. Thirty-one percent of those systems are not394sustainable by FAA's own amounts. There are not enough spare395parts. There is not enough money. There are not enough plans.396And their plans to develop many of these systems are not397intended to resolve the problem for 10 or 13 years. We have got398the VA electronic healthcare system. They are on their fourth399try. They have spent over $12 billion already. We have only400deployed the system to 4 medical centers, another 5 in the next401year, but there are 160 more to go, so these are issues.402    Cybersecurity, I designated that a high-risk area across403Federal Government in 1997, added a critical infrastructure404protection in 2003. It is still a problem. It has grown in405intensity, and the government is not acting at a pace406commensurate with the evolving grave threat, not just to the407Federal Government's information systems, but the critical408infrastructure protection, the electricity grid, water systems,409our telecommunications network, all across the 16 critical410infrastructure sections of the United States.411    There are many other areas on the list that deal with412public health and safety, oversight of medical products. We413have got drug shortages. We have got not enough inspections of414drug manufacturers, food safety. The Bureau of Prisons is in415significant disrepair and understaffed, and I can go into many416of these areas during the discussion. But the main message here417is that action and heightened attention on these issues can418save billions of dollars, improve public health and safety, and419also go to the heart of improving the service and the420effectiveness and efficiency and a return on investment and421build better trust in our government institutions.422    I thank you for the opportunity to be here today and would423enjoy entertaining your questions.424    Chairman Comer. Thank you. I now recognize Dr. Gosar from425Arizona.426    Mr. Gosar. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I extend the same427thing, Mr. Dodaro. I always look to this hearing to talk to you428because you have always been good to us and always been very429fair. So, thank you for doing that.430    If I had to highlight just one Department of the431Government's efficiency accomplishment so far, it would be432proving that the waste, fraud, and abuse infecting the Federal433Government is not just isolated to one department. It is434government wide. Since the last GAO high risk report in 2023,435not a single item has been removed from that list. The Biden436Administration contaminated nearly every agency and dug our437Nation deeper and deeper in debt. This High Risk List includes438improper Medicaid payments and extravagant DoD acquisitions to439fund endless wars.440    For 3 years, the Families First Coronavirus Response Act441provided FMAP funding to states to continuously enroll Medicaid442beneficiaries regardless of eligibility or their private443insurance. According to the Kaiser Foundation, enrollment in444Medicaid and CHIP grew by 23.1 million or 32.4 percent between445February 2020 and April 2023, and once again, the DoD failed446its seventh consecutive audit. Perhaps we should not authorize447Abrams tanks and send them over to Ukraine to be instantly448destroyed.449    Mr. Dodaro, the High Risk List also mentions the450infrastructure of the Bureau of Prisons. Bureau of Prisons is451planning to close seven facilities and three satellite camps452due to budget constraints. I know who is being empowered with453emergency funds, ICE, who needs more detention beds. My454question for you, would allowing ICE to use these BOP455facilities as detention centers help generate additional456revenue and expand the use of excess Federal property, perhaps457even improve the infrastructure?458    Mr. Dodaro. We have not taken a look at that issue yet. I459understand what your concerns are, and I do not know. We will460be taking a look and I am sure asked to look at how ICE is461using those facilities and what effect that is having, both462positive and potentially negative, and we will have to see. But463I am deeply concerned about the state of the prisons. They are464very understaffed, and there is excessive use of overtime, and465that can lead to both safety concerns for their staff as well466as incarcerated individuals. Despite the First Step Act, they467have not really focused on evaluating programs that are468intended to help people transition back into society and not469prevent recidivism from occurring and them ending back in470prison shortly after their release. So, I do not know to what471extent ICE using the facilities will complicate or potentially472have other effects on that area, but we will look at it.473    Mr. Gosar. And to follow up on that is, if you regard this474as a transfer, could you tell us how you would transfer that475property too?476    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. I am not sure. I would have to look at the477ownership of who owns the prisons.478    Mr. Gosar. Now, the report also flags that the FDA must do479a better job to protect public health and improve its oversight480of temporary use or ``unapproved medical products like drugs,481vaccines during emergencies.'' Question for you. In your482investigation of this lack of an FDA oversight, did you uncover483why the FDA approved the emergency use of the experimental484COVID shot, but not ivermectin for the treatment of COVID?485    Mr. Dodaro. Let me ask, Jessie. Let me call our expert up486in that area. It is Jess Farb. Ms. Jess Farb is managing487director of our healthcare work.488    Mr. Gosar. Thanks, Jess.489    Ms. Farb. Congressman, we have not looked into the use of490EUAs for ivermectin or vaccines at this point. We have not been491asked to do that yet by Congress.492    Mr. Gosar. Well, one of the things that we are going to493have to really look at is improve FDA because there is trouble494all the way around, and I think both sides can agree on that495one. The report recommends the collection of tax payments for496oil and gas leases to help ``improve the government's fiscal497position.'' Would you agree that funds generated from the taxes498on oil and gas leases on Federal lands would help reduce the499deficit?500    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.501    Mr. Gosar. So, let us approve some more oil and gas leases?502    Mr. Dodaro. No. Our finding is that it is already being503produced.504    Mr. Gosar. OK.505    Mr. Dodaro. And the government is not collecting. There is506no assurance it is collecting the amount that is already due. I507am not suggesting they produce more, but for what is being508produced, royalty payments are due to the government. The509Interior Department systems are in kind of disarray, and it is510not clear that they are collecting the revenue that is due to511the government.512    Mr. Gosar. Thank you, Mr. Dodaro. I yield back.513    Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes the Ranking Member for5145 minutes.515    Mr. Connolly. Thank you. Mr. Dodaro, welcome back. You have516been doing high risk reports to this Committee for a long time,517and on the High Risk List this year, there are how many items518again?519    Mr. Dodaro. There are 38 items.520    Mr. Connolly. Thirty-eight, and how many has Congress taken521action on?522    Mr. Dodaro. There are quite a few. I mean, we took off523last----524    Mr. Connolly. Well, quite a few is a little general.525    Mr. Dodaro. Well, I can ask----526    Mr. Connolly. Nineteen, 20?527    Mr. Dodaro. I would say probably 20 is a fair statement,52820.529    Mr. Connolly. Twenty.530    Mr. Dodaro. Overtime.531    Mr. Connolly. So, Congress has not ignored the High Risk532List.533    Mr. Dodaro. No.534    Mr. Connolly. But there are some perennial favorites that535keep on coming back for one reason or another, are there not?536    Mr. Dodaro. That is correct.537    Mr. Connolly. And what would be couple of examples of that?538    Mr. Dodaro. Well, there are some charter members who have539been on since 1990.540    Mr. Connolly. Can I ask you to speak close to the541microphone?542    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, sure. There are some charter members who543have been on since 1990, Medicare, for example. The DoD weapon544systems has been on the list since 1990. Medicaid joined in5452003 along with real property across Federal Government. As I546mentioned earlier, put cybersecurity on in 1997, and so those547are some of the ones that were early additions to the list. And548I want to be clear--there have been improvements in some of549those areas, but they are not to the point where risk is being550managed properly, and we still have opportunities to do better.551    Mr. Connolly. All right. If we adopted all of the552recommendations GAO put forward on the High Risk List, any idea553what the savings could be to the United States taxpayer?554    Mr. Dodaro. Over $200 billion.555    Mr. Connolly. Two-hundred billion dollars a year or total?556    Mr. Dodaro. Total, but some of them would continue.557    Mr. Connolly. Right. OK.558    Mr. Dodaro. And that is a very conservative estimate. I559think it could be more, much more.560    Mr. Connolly. Well, just for example, the savings from IT561modernization, which has been on your High Risk List, is $31562billion, yes. And by the way, it is a gift that keeps on563giving----564    Mr. Dodaro. That is correct.565    Mr. Connolly [continuing]. If we focus on real efficiency.566Are you familiar with the Taxpayer Funds Oversight and567Accountability Act, previously known as the CFO Vision Act?568    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.569    Mr. Connolly. And would that make the Federal Government570work better for the American people, in your opinion, if we571adopted it?572    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Yes. That was based upon recommendations573from a GAO study where we studied the impact of the CFO Act574over the 30 years of its implementation and some suggestions to575make it stronger.576    Mr. Connolly. And does that bill also address improper577payments and fraud?578    Mr. Dodaro. With some additional provisions added, it could579and should, and I am happy to provide additional suggestions to580the Committee in that regard.581    Mr. Connolly. Yes. Could you just talk a little bit about582improper payments? Refresh our memory what we mean by583``improper payments.'' We do not mean the government584deliberately goes out and throws money from the rooftop.585    Mr. Dodaro. No, that is not in the official statutory586definition, and I would not support that.587    Mr. Connolly. For the record, neither would I.588    Mr. Dodaro. The official definition is, it is a payment589that should not have been made or was made in the wrong amount.590Some of them can actually be an underpayment. Most, however,591are overpayments, probably 90 percent of them. They happen when592money is given to somebody who is really not eligible to593receive the benefit or the payment calculation is incorrect----594    Mr. Connolly. Right.595    Mr. Dodaro [continuing]. Or somebody submits a bill for a596service that was never provided. And, of course, some of the597improper payments could be fraud, and fraud is broader, and the598improper payments really are only estimate of about 80 Federal599programs. They are a very small subset. They should be bigger.600But fraud occurs throughout the Federal Government, so fraud601can occur beyond the improper payments.602    Mr. Connolly. Final point. It just seems to me that part of603the problem with improper payments in the Federal Government is604there is no sort of incentive or reward system in the Federal605workforce to reward you for catching improper payments and606trying to deflect them. The reward system is getting money out607the door, understandably, and providing benefits and services608to needy citizens. Real quickly, could you comment on that----609    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.610    Mr. Connolly [continuing]. And how we address that?611    Mr. Dodaro. That is exactly right. I mean, more people in612the Federal agencies have gotten in trouble for not paying613someone than they have from paying someone that they should not614have paid, and the incentives need to be changed. The other615complicating factors--many of these programs are administered616through the states, so there needs to be incentives at the617states. And Labor Department, for example, has offered a618suggestion that there be legislation to give states the ability619to keep five percent of whatever they were covering in proper620payments and use it to strengthen their payment integrity621processes, and I support that.622    Mr. Connolly. I thank the Chair.623    Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Dr. Foxx from624North Carolina.625    Ms. Foxx. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you,626Mr. Dodaro, and we will miss you when you retire. We appreciate627you.628    Last year, North Carolina saw immense devastation caused by629Hurricane Helene with over a 100 lives lost and nearly $60630billion in damage. While FEMA did show up to provide aid, I631give FEMA and the Federal response to Helene an overall grade632of a D-plus. It is no surprise that ``improving the delivery of633Federal disaster assistance'' was added this year to the GAO634High Risk List, which states that attention is also needed to635improve processes for assisting survivors. I could not agree636more.637    One of the biggest problems I recognized while helping638constituents affected by the storms, is how FEMA's639representatives on the ground are telling people what the640Agency cannot do rather than what they can do. FEMA has a lot641of experience dealing with disasters, yet it seems to have642learned shockingly few lessons along the way. There should be643an information road map available to those affected by644disasters, including what they can expect from FEMA. This road645map should include how much and what kind of aid they can646expect to receive, a timeline for aid, information on all647available assistance, and what types of decisions will have to648be made in the coming weeks, months, and years. What649recommendations do you have for FEMA to ``improve processes for650assisting survivors?''651    Mr. Dodaro. I will give a couple of examples, and I will652turn to Chris Currie, who is our expert in the area, and he can653enumerate all these suggestions that we have.654    One of the things is, we think FEMA gets involved in too655many disasters. Right now, it is based on a per capita amount656of $1.86 per capita, has not been adjusted over time. So, they657get involved in a lot more disasters that if they effectively658evaluated the state and local ability to do it, we estimate659they could be non-involved in about 27 fewer disasters, which660would help deal with this issue. So, I will turn to Chris for661other examples.662    Mr. Currie. Yes, ma'am. The way you described it, I could663not agree more with. The problem is we have a system that was664created to do good, but it is not helping the survivors that it665is supposed to help, and your description is right on. The666problem is the survivor and the community has to pull the667assistance out of FEMA and undergo a very complicated process668that is often fragmented across multiple agencies, and it is669very confusing, and survivors get worn down, understandably.670So, in terms of our recommendations, we actually have a number671of options to simplify the system, but also to reform how the672Federal Government provides this assistance so communities and673survivors can get it quicker and more easily.674    Ms. Foxx. I have a follow-up question I will send to you675all because I am not going to have enough time for you to676answer that, and I need to ask another question. We have worked677very hard in this Committee on Postal Service reform, and we678are concerned that the High Risk List notes the Postal Service679lost $16 billion in fiscal years 2023 and 2024 and has $181680billion in debts and liabilities. The Postal Service cannot681continue operating as it has with its financials in such bad682shape. What suggestions do you have for us to shore up the683Postal Service so it can continue to provide critical service,684especially in rural communities like the ones most of us685represent?686    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. There is a basic expectation gap between687the Congress and the Postal Service, and I think that gap has688to be closed. Congress wants certain delivery expectations set689for the Postal Service, but there is no way they are going to690generate the revenue necessary in order to meet those691expectations that Congress has for it. So, I think there has to692be a negotiation between Congress and the Postal Service, say,693this is what we want you to do. How much can you generate? They694need to keep trying to reduce their cost and they have had some695success, but not a lot. And I think that is fair to ask them to696reduce their cost, but at some point Congress has to say, here697is what we want and here is what we are willing to help698contribute to pay to keep that level of service going.699    Ms. Foxx. It is my understanding that they have done not700nearly enough to automate and to reduce those costs. Do you701have some suggestions in that area?702    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. This is Dave Marroni, our director in703charge of postal work.704    Mr. Marroni. So, they have made some initial steps to705transform their network, but there still is a lot that remains706to be done. The network is antiquated. They are in the process707of trying to transform it, but there have been some problems in708that transformation. In certain areas where it has been709implemented, in Atlanta and Richmond, you have seen declines in710service performance as the rollout was done. So, it is really711important for the Postal Service to focus on what are the712lessons from that so as they continue this transformation,713which is really important to get at your point, it is rolled714out as smoothly as possible, so you both get those gains, and715you do not get the significant hiccups that happened with the716first two implementations.717    Ms. Foxx. Mr. Chairman, thank you. I do want to follow up718with our witnesses, particularly on the Post Office.719    Chairman Comer. Absolutely.720    Ms. Foxx. It affects every American, and it is very721critical to us. Thank you very much.722    Chairman Comer. Absolutely.723    Very good. The Chair recognizes Ms. Norton from Washington,724DC.725    Ms. Norton. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For this year's high726risk update, the Government Accountability Office found that727inadequate staffing and skills gaps contributed to more than728half of the Nation's highest risk challenges. Mr. Dodaro, why729are Federal workers such an important part of the equation in730tackling high-risk areas?731    Mr. Dodaro. Having the right numbers of staff with the732right skills is very essential. VA healthcare is on the high733risk for not providing timely and quality healthcare. There is734a real shortage of mental health providers. We have veterans735that need suicide care, for example. Last I checked, there were73617 veterans a day committing suicide, so we need well-qualified737mental health providers just in that area alone. You need738guards that are well qualified at the Bureau of Prisons. You739need good people managing our nuclear weapons complex, security740experts, et cetera. You need software engineers at DoD, and I741could go on and on. So, these areas--and we have had strategic742human capital across the Federal Government on our High Risk743List since 2001.744    I have been very concerned about the Federal workforce does745not have the proper skills that are needed to address many of746these important areas that are providing critical services to747the American people and at the heart of providing public748safety. For example, there are not enough inspectors at FDA to749inspect foreign drug manufacturers. They only have 22 percent750of the manufacturers, yet most of our drugs now come from751foreign manufacturers in China and India and other countries,752and we are not inspecting them the way we should.753    Our food supply, 15 percent imported, but in some754categories, like seafood, it is over 80 percent, fresh fruits755and vegetables over half, and we do not have enough inspections756being done on our food supplies either. EPA is not doing enough757assessments to assess toxic chemicals before they are758introduced into society. So, these are reasons that we have759this issue on the High Risk List because they do not have the760right people and enough skills in order to execute their761mission to protect the American people.762    Ms. Norton. Well, unfortunately, Elon Musk and the763Department of Government Efficiency missed the memo on when764they came to power and began terrorizing the Federal workers765that serve the American people day in and day out. And let us766not forget that a third of these Federal workers are veterans.767Instead of focusing their efforts on recruiting and retaining768talented people to put their skills to work, solving the769Nation's challenges, Elon Musk offered an illegal scam buyout770to millions of Federal employees. That will only make the771government staffing challenges worse. And last Saturday, he was772at it again, threatening on social media that all Federal773workers would lose their jobs if they failed to reply to an774email and report what they did last week.775    Mr. Dodaro, is it a best management practice to throw776around indiscriminate threats of mass firings, regardless of777job duties and mission needs?778    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, I would not consider it a best practice,779but I have spent most of my career, decades, butting heads with780the bureaucracies across the government. There is a need for781change, but how you do it matters, and going about it in the782way that is being done now can cause some short-term problems783for the government because it can create other vulnerabilities,784unintended vulnerabilities. The way I have suggested in the785past that this be done, is the government figure out what786functions it does not want to do anymore, then you can deal787with the people in those functions or ones that do not have the788skills that you need anymore. But it should be done in a789respectful way, and it should be done also in a way that does790not hurt the Federal Government in the long term.791    We need people to be coming into government. Whatever any792administration decides to do with their policies and what they793want the government to do, at the end of the day, they are794going to need good people to be able to do it, and not enough795younger people have been coming into the government with the796kind of skills that are needed going forward. So, you have to797be careful that you do not disincentivize people to want to798give public service because public service is important to799implementing any policy initiative by any administration, no800matter what the policy is. I am agnostic on the policy, that is801for elected officials, but I have seen good policies that do802not get implemented effectively because you do not have the803right people.804    Chairman Comer. Very good. The gentlelady's time has805expired. The Chair recognizes Mr. Higgins from Louisiana.806    Mr. Higgins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Dodaro, thank you807for your service. What a very impressive record, good sir, and808you are a unique individual to have been able to make it809through so many significant changes in the executive branch and810in Congress. So, we thank you for your service, and I mean811that.812    I would like to dig into two areas in my brief 5 minutes813with you, sir. One will be the Department of Defense, but814before we get there, I like to talk to you more about the815United States Postal Service. You mentioned that Congress816should clearly identify to the United States Postal Service817what we need, what we expect, and I would ask you, did we not818do that in 1970 with the Postal Reorganization Act? When the819Postal Service was reformed and redefined as an independent820Agency and allowed great autonomy and independence from821Congress, they were essentially, and I am simplifying here, and822I ask you to correct me if I am wrong, good sir. But823essentially, the Post Office was given great autonomy and the824ability to run itself, set its own fees and the price of825stamps, and establish its own financial conduct within the826Postal Service. It was essentially set up as a government-owned827corporation. And part of that deal, the 1970 law, required828performance to deliver for the American people and a net829neutral fiscal performance or a breakeven fiscal performance.830So, I would say that the United States Postal Service has831failed to comply with existing law, but perhaps I am832oversimplifying that, and I yield to the gentleman. Would you833please respond?834    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, sure. Absolutely. Fundamentally,835structurally, your description is sound, and it was intended836for the Postal Service to operate like a private entity, all837right, until you run into situations where, if you are a838private entity, this Postal Service facility, we want to close839this Post Office in this rural area.840    Mr. Higgins. If the gentleman will yield for a question to841his comment here?842    Mr. Dodaro. Sure.843    Mr. Higgins. But there was nothing in the 1970 law that844prohibited the manifestation of private competition, so any845reasonable corporate structure----846    Mr. Dodaro. Right.847    Mr. Higgins [continuing]. Would have anticipated the848manifestation of private competition. So, I would say that the849Post Office was never insulated from the impact of potential850private competition, nor are they at this time right now. So,851why would we give them the autonomy of corporate structure852without the responsibility to perform within the reasonable853guidelines of corporate structure, including consideration of854private competition? And I yield back to the gentleman.855    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Well, there are certain areas they have856competition in and certain areas they are a monopoly, First857Class Mail being a classic example of the monopoly. All I am858saying is that over time, as they moved to exercise their859autonomy, there were certain things that Congress balked at.860Closing of postal facilities was one. Moving to 5-day delivery861and packages on 6 days as opposed to 6-day delivery, Congress862balked on. And so that is the type of thing that I think we863need to negotiate around those particular things that a private864sector entity would do, but there is not an appetite for the865type of changes that would occur. I will ask my expert to add866on.867    Mr. Higgins. Would you concur, and it will be my final868point, and then please answer. Like, how would you assess the869USPS performance regarding their mandate by law to break even870for decades they have failed?871    Mr. Marroni. They are not self-sustaining. They have an872unsustainable business model, which is why there needs to be a873definition of what level of service going forward, as Mr.874Dodaro was saying, and also some figuring out of how is the875Postal Service, with those services, going to support it?876Because right now, they are not financially self-sufficient.877They are supposed to be.878    Mr. Dodaro. First Class Mail is not coming back. I mean,879that is their most profitable area, is First Class Mail. It is880not coming back due to email and other electronic changes, and881they have not been able to cut costs fast enough to meet these882services. And so, absent some additional compromise between883Congress on delivery and perhaps some contribution to them or a884different model for what they have. Right now, the model is not885going to work, and eventually, what is going to happen is that886in 5 years or so, their money that they have to pay post-887retirement healthcare benefits is going to run out.888    Mr. Higgins. It is unsustainable. Words of wisdom. Mr.889Chairman, my time has expired. I yield.890    Chairman Comer. Thank you. The Chair recognizes Mr. Lynch891from Massachusetts.892    Mr. Lynch. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Dodaro, good to see893you. They tell me that you have testified over 220 times. I894think Mr. Connolly and I have been there for most of them, and895I just want to say how grateful I am, on behalf of the American896taxpayer, for your good work. I can say that throughout your897time here, you have been honest and fastidious with your898reports and thorough. I would say that you have been strictly899nonpartisan throughout your time, and that has been helpful as900well during some tough issues. Just the fact that you are a901straight shooter has helped us with our work on our end. I902think, honestly, you have been a shining example of what a903Federal employee, a Federal worker, and a government taxpayer904watchdog should be, and so I wish you well. I am sorry that you905are leaving because we need you now more than ever. I am just906hoping that a little bit of Gene Dodaro rubbed off on those907people sitting behind you, and I think that may be the case.908    Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to submit for the909record a report of the Inspector General of the Veterans910Affairs Administration: ``The OIG Determination of Severe911Occupational Staffing Shortages at the VA, Fiscal Year 2024.''912    Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.913    Mr. Lynch. So, Gene, if you would, we had a report that was914filed by Mike Missal, who was the Inspector General for the VA915until he was fired by President Trump a little about, I do not916know, maybe 3 weeks ago. Anyway, he reported that the VA Health917Administration, which cares for more than 9 million veterans in9181,400 healthcare facilities and 170 VA medical centers, was919experiencing severe occupational staffing shortages of about9203,000 people--2,959 people--with over 82 percent of the921facilities reporting severe shortages of medical officers and922nurses. So, the nurses are like the Marine Corps of our health923system, and especially at the VA, they do it all. Doctors take924the credit, but the nurses do the work. And what did President925Trump do? And Elon Musk came in and fired another thousand.926That was right when they came in, which included healthcare927workers, employees who process benefit claims, workers who928staff the VA suicide crisis line, with record suicides among929veterans. And then just yesterday, the President went back and930fired an additional 1,400, so now we are down 5,400 employees931at the VA. This is something we used to agree on between932Republicans and Democrats. Can you offer us an assessment on933how these terminations will impact veterans and their families?934    Mr. Dodaro. We are going to take a look at that because it935is on the high-risk area, but it is not going to help the936situation. We already had them listed as having shortages in937those areas, and they have difficulty retaining people. I am938very concerned about mental health and suicide prevention. We939are looking at the crisis hotline right now at the request of940the Senate. We are due to issue some reports. I will ask Jess941Farb to add her views. She is our Managing Director for942Healthcare and follows this carefully, but it is a reason to be943concerned.944    Mr. Lynch. Yes.945    Ms. Farb. Well, Congressman as----946    Mr. Lynch. Gene, you can be a little more forthcoming947because you are retiring, so if you want to have at it, let me948know what you think--but, ma'am, go ahead. I am sorry.949    Ms. Farb. OK. Sure.950    Mr. Lynch. I apologize.951    Ms. Farb. So, I would say that, obviously, VA has struggled952with just making sure that veterans get timely access to953healthcare. And so, not having the right number of people with954the right skill sets and the right ability to treat veterans is955going to affect what has already been a longstanding issue at956the VA in terms of timeliness of care, as we have reported in957the past, about how long veterans have waited. So, the people958that schedule the appointments are very essential to making959sure that veterans are able to get care, both in the VA960facilities and in the community.961    Mr. Lynch. Yes. The other thing that worries me is right962now, I asked the VA how much of a backlog do you have on963claims, cases coming, veterans coming in, especially with the964PACT Act. What is the backlog of cases at the VA because it has965taken forever for people to get appointments. And they told me966they had a backlog today of 250,000 cases at the VA. They just967laid off an additional 2,400 people. So, I mean, can you968surmise what the impact that is going to create?969    Mr. Dodaro. Well, it is going to create or make an already970bad situation likely worse. VA handling of disability issues is971also on the High Risk List. We have had it on the High Risk972List for a long time, and there was a point in time, and I hope973it is a little better now, but where if you went for an appeal,974it takes up to 7 years to get your appeal resolved.975    Mr. Lynch. Exactly.976    Mr. Dodaro. People would die before they would get a977decision on their disability claim area, and the PACT Act did978increase their workload. Now, I have not looked specifically at979what has happened, but we will as part of our work, but I know980the situation was not good to begin with.981    Mr. Lynch. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you,982Madam Chair, for your indulgence, and thank you, Mr. Dodaro.983    Ms. Mace. [Presiding.] And generosity.984    Mr. Lynch. Generosity, yes, and indulgence.985    Ms. Mace. Uh-huh. OK. Thank you. I will now recognize986myself for 5 minutes.987    Thank you, Comptroller General Dorado, for being with us988today, and I apologize for you having to bear witness to the989tantrums that unfolded in this Committee earlier today. The990Oversight Committee has convened today to discuss something991throwing the left into a tailspin, spending more time992protesting and disrupting official proceedings than993legislating, all because we are talking about cutting waste,994fraud, and abuse and government mismanagement.995    For decades, this was not a partisan issue. You know who996championed cutting back on waste, fraud, and abuse? No other997than President Obama and Joe Biden. In 2011, Obama signed998Executive Order 13576 to create a Government Accountability and999Transparency Board, under Joe Biden's watch, to root out waste,1000to root out fraud, and to root out abuse in Federal agencies.1001Joe Biden himself even admitted back then, ``Cutting waste,1002fraud, and abuse has been something Washington has talked about1003for decades, but now, more than ever, what the American people1004need is action.'' But now the left has done a complete 180,1005claiming cutting waste, fraud, and abuse is fascist. They say1006it is a threat to democracy. They even say our Nation's chief1007executive should not be allowed to direct or control the1008executive branch, or even ask an unelected bureaucrat who works1009for him what they did at work last week. We just want to know1010what are the top five things you did at the office. You should1011know in about 5 minutes, and if you cannot answer that1012question, you probably should not be employed by the Federal1013Government or any company or organization that would never hire1014you.1015    Their disruption has nothing to do with policy and1016everything to do with Trump derangement syndrome, and I fear1017that their disruption is pathological. It is about their need1018to oppose anything tied to President Trump. They would rather1019protect bloated bureaucracy and light our tax dollars on fire1020than admit he was right. So, I will repeat, they have Trump1021derangement syndrome, and I fear this is terminal.1022    Now, turning to an issue of great importance to me, as1023Chairwoman of the Cybersecurity, Information Technology, and1024Government Innovation Subcommittee. Mr. Dodaro, the 2025 High1025Risk List highlights serious failures in Federal cybersecurity1026and technology modernization, as you are, I am sure, fully1027aware. Federal agencies spend billions of dollars a year on1028software without a comprehensive or detailed understanding of1029what they are purchasing and how it compares to what they are1030already paying for. In other words, a lot of duplication. GAO1031has reported without improvements to IT portfolio and1032investment reviews, saying the Federal Government will likely1033continue to expand resources and IT investments that do not1034meet the needs of the government or the public. What steps1035should agencies take right now to actually understand the1036software they are buying instead of just throwing taxpayer1037dollars at it hoping for the best? What is your advice?1038    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. I am going to turn to Carol Harris, who is1039our Director in Information Technology, and she can enumerate1040for you.1041    Ms. Mace. Terrific.1042    Ms. Harris. Thank you for the question. So, a number of1043things that can be done. First of all, with regard to IT1044management, I mean, we have a major issue where we have $1001045billion annually going to the IT budget across the Federal1046Government. Eighty percent of that money is going toward1047sustaining old systems, so we have to tackle legacy issues.1048    Ms. Mace. How old are some of these systems?1049    Ms. Harris. Some of these systems range up to even like 501050years old, so they are old and they need to be----1051    Ms. Mace. These are the legacy systems, right, the real old1052technology?1053    Ms. Harris. Correct. These are the legacy systems.1054    Ms. Mace. What kind of technology were they coded with?1055    Ms. Harris. With COBOL, for example, and other antiquated1056computer languages. And that is part of the issue, where now1057for these particular systems, the government is having a1058difficult time finding staff and knowledgeable people to1059actually work on these programs, because these computer1060languages are out of date.1061    Ms. Mace. After I taught myself HTML in college, because1062there were not college classes on how to code HTML. I consider1063it a real programming language--some people may not--but I1064learned COBOL, it was back in 1999. I worked on Y2K stuff, and,1065I mean, that was almost 26 years ago, 27 years ago, when I did1066that. The fact that we are still using it decades later. Real1067quickly, I only have 45 seconds left. What are some of the1068security and operational risks resulting from the last1069Administration's failure to review and manage Federal1070Government IT?1071    Ms. Harris. Well, when we take a look at those legacy1072systems, for example, because we are continuing to manage them,1073there are cybersecurity vulnerabilities associated with those,1074as well as the staffing challenges as well as just increased1075costs associated with maintaining these. So, the security1076vulnerabilities in maintaining these old systems are very real,1077and we have to address them, and we have made multiple1078recommendations. We have 700 recommendations that are still1079open that need to be addressed immediately.1080    Ms. Mace. And thank you both for your time today. I will1081yield back. I will now recognize Mr. Khanna for 5 minutes.1082    Mr. Khanna. Thank you, Madam Chair. First, I wanted to1083comment on the earlier debate where Representative Grothman and1084Representative Greene said that some of these cuts that Musk1085and DOGE are making are good and making our country more1086efficient. And our side said, no, there are Federal workers who1087are being fired without cause and they are not the poor1088performers that they are. And I guess my question for the1089Chair, and I know Chair Comer is not here, is, why not have1090Elon Musk come before this Committee and make the case? I mean,1091why not have Representative Greene ask him to explain why she1092thinks the situation is good and have the confidence to explain1093that to the American public? And we can ask him questions about1094where we think that he has violated the law, but I do not1095understand what the reluctance is to have Mr. Musk come here.1096If you are so confident on your side that what he is doing is1097in the interest of the American people, why not have speech and1098have him here? And I hope that the Chair will consider that1099request.1100    Mr. Dodaro, I have great respect for you, and I have great1101respect for your service, but with due respect, this is not a1102time for caution in speaking out. Your predecessor, Elmer1103Staats, took Gerald Ford to court because Ford was not willing1104to comply with the Impoundment Act. This was not a decision1105that she made, that Staats made, but lawyers, Staats spoke out.1106And I want to ask you whether what you think the President is1107doing in pausing these payments automatically is a violation of1108the Impoundment Act.1109    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, we are looking at that issue. We have1110already sent letters to the Administration asking them to1111explain their legal position to us, and we will be making1112rulings as to whether or not these issues violated the1113Impoundment Control Act or not.1114    Mr. Khanna. When will you be making that?1115    Mr. Dodaro. As soon as we can get the information from the1116Administration. We are following the court cases as well, so we1117are evaluating the court filings.1118    Mr. Khanna. What if they refuse to give you the1119information?1120    Mr. Dodaro. Well, we have the information that is available1121through the court filings of what their legal positions are for1122many of these issues that are subject to the litigation.1123    Mr. Khanna. Would you say within 45 days, because that is1124the rescission. I mean, they have about 45 days. I mean, I1125think the automatic payments is a violation in itself.1126    Mr. Dodaro. Well, yes, we are going to make these decisions1127as fast as possible. I fully intend to carry out our1128responsibilities under the Impoundment Control Act1129expeditiously and thoroughly.1130    Mr. Khanna. But how about by May 1?1131    Mr. Dodaro. I will check with my attorney, is what the1132people always say, but I will check. I will let you know. Yes,1133I am going to do it as quickly as we can, but we need to be1134careful and thorough because the next step for us is to go to1135court ourselves. I mean, under the Impoundment Control Act, if1136we say there is an impoundment, the money is not released1137within a certain period of time, we have to go to court.1138    Mr. Khanna. And are you prepared to do that?1139    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, yes, but I need to be prepared and be1140careful, and because I want to go there, I want to win, all1141right? So, we are going to do this as fast and as thoroughly as1142we can. We have a good track record on this area, I have a good1143group of attorneys, and we are going to do a thorough job.1144    Mr. Khanna. So, can the American people be assured that if1145there are violations of the Impoundment Act in the automatic1146pause or in the cuts, that you will make sure that you1147prosecute that or take it to court and are confident that you1148will prevail?1149    Mr. Dodaro. I can be confident that I will take it to its1150full closure. I am not going to predict what the court is going1151to say. I know better than that, but they have their own1152independent decision-making. They are making some decisions1153right now on these very topics, but I know and I am confident I1154can give the American people assurance, we will carry out our1155responsibilities.1156    Mr. Khanna. But to all the constituents who are saying we1157are not doing enough, these things are getting paused, there1158are cuts that are happening, you can assure them that you are1159moving as expeditiously and taking this as seriously, that this1160is your top priority in making sure that you are going to1161uphold the Impoundment Act and take aggressive action if it is1162violated.1163    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. I have been1164talking about this as soon as things started to unfold. We sent1165our letters over. This is very important. Now, there are a lot1166of factors that go into making these decisions. One is how1167specific Congress was in the appropriation law to begin with.1168We need to take that into account. This year, we are in a1169continuing resolution stage, so you do not have a lot of1170specifics for this fiscal year, whether it is now year money or1171not your money. There are some pauses for programmatic review.1172So, there are a lot of details and a lot of legal1173considerations to sort through, but this is a high priority for1174us, and we are going to execute our responsibilities.1175    Mr. Khanna. I appreciate it.1176    Ms. Mace. All right. I will now recognize Mr. Biggs for 51177minutes.1178    Mr. Biggs. Thank you so much. It is good to see you again.1179Welcome back. I have a question for you with regard to the1180Impoundment Act. Let us say Congress appropriates $1, but the1181Administration finds a way to do the same task that that dollar1182is supposed to go for, for 75 cents. You do not think that they1183are violating the Impoundment Act if they do not spend $1, the1184full dollar, do you?1185    Mr. Dodaro. Well, that is a hypothetical question. I would1186like to see the Federal Government spend $1 on something. I do1187not think that that is going to happen, but the theory behind1188your question is, did they spend everything that Congress1189intended them to spend, and if they do not, that there is1190nothing wrong with that. The Impoundment Act provides a remedy1191for the President to submit a rescission proposal to the1192Congress, and the Congress has 45 days to approve it. If they1193do not, then they agree----1194    Mr. Biggs. Right, but the process can be cumbersome is the1195point, then there needs to be the efficiency by doing the1196Rescission Act. I do not take all the time for that.1197    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, but there is a process, yes.1198    Mr. Biggs. So, in your written testimony and in your1199report, you say that the areas on the High Risk List include1200programs that represented about 80 percent of the total1201governmentwide reported improper payment estimate for Fiscal1202Year 2023. Agencies in the Department of Treasury are taking1203some steps to address this issue. Much more needs to be done to1204control billions of dollars in overpayments and prevent fraud.1205For example, CMS should improve the timeliness of audits to1206identify and recover improper payments. You also make clear1207that while congressional action may be necessary to eliminate1208issues and that interagency coordination is needed, no progress1209has been made on improving Medicaid program integrity since it1210was added in 2023.1211    In 2023, GAO designated the unemployment insurance system1212as high-risk because ``unemployment insurance is administrative1213and program integrity challenges pose significant risk to1214service delivery and expose the system to significant financial1215losses.'' Similarly, GAO has ``designated Medicare as a high-1216risk program due to its size, complexity, effect on the Federal1217budget, and susceptibility to improper payments.'' Further, the1218significant amount of Medicaid improper payments is a principal1219reason that GAO included Medicaid program integrity on its 20231220High Risk List as well. In Fiscal Year 2023, the estimated1221amount of improper payments for Medicaid reached approximately1222$50.3 billion. Where is all that money going?1223    Mr. Dodaro. Well, it is going to the wrong places. It is1224not quite clear. The estimates here are made based upon1225sampling procedures, so it is not an enumeration of all the1226payments. It is just for those that are in the sample that1227where they make the payment, they try to recover the money. For1228other things, it is just an estimate of statistically----1229    Mr. Biggs. Yes. So, you are basing it on statistical1230inflation, right?1231    Mr. Dodaro. Right.1232    Mr. Biggs. So, it is impossible for you to tell how much of1233that is due to fraud?1234    Mr. Dodaro. That is correct, although we have made1235recommendations. We did a fraud estimate.1236    Mr. Biggs. And what is your fraud estimate?1237    Mr. Dodaro. Our fraud estimate from 2018 to 2022, that 5-1238year period, we estimated annual losses to fraud to be between1239$233 billion and $521 billion. So, that period covered both1240before the pandemic and during the pandemic, which had, in my1241view, epic fraud during the pandemic.1242    Mr. Biggs. Right. Right. Federal Medicaid spending was over1243$575 billion in Fiscal Year 2023 and is expected to increase1244over the next decade. What is needed to better manage the1245program?1246    Mr. Dodaro. You said Medicaid or Medicare? I am sorry.1247    Mr. Biggs. Medicaid.1248    Mr. Dodaro. Medicaid.1249    Mr. Biggs. Yes.1250    Mr. Dodaro. No. 1 is you need to have better control over1251managed care portion of Medicaid. The estimates on improper1252payments for Medicaid only, really, are based upon the fee-for-1253service portion, which is less than half of the payments now,1254and we have encouraged much more aggressive fashion in looking1255at the managed care portion. They have increased the number of1256audits. They are starting to find more problems, so that is No.12571.1258    Mr. Biggs. OK. So, I got to move on----1259    Mr. Dodaro. All right.1260    Mr. Biggs [continuing]. Because there is just too much1261here----1262    Mr. Dodaro. OK.1263    Mr. Biggs [continuing]. Because you also noted that DoD has1264major problems as well. And so, I have introduced, once again,1265the Audit the Pentagon Act, which aims to increase transparency1266and accountability in the defense budget and imposing financial1267consequences, because have they ever had a clean bill of health1268on an audit?1269    Mr. Dodaro. Not for the overall Department. There are some1270components, and I am very pleased, the last 2 years, the Marine1271Corps has got an unmodified clean opinion. The other services,1272not so much yet. Now, I noted that Secretary Hegseth has made1273this a priority. I am going to be communicating with him,1274meeting with him, to say, if you want to do this, here are the1275things that need to be done in order to achieve an unmodified1276opinion for the whole Department.1277    Mr. Biggs. And I am sorry that we are out of time because I1278would like to hear all your Medicaid remedies as well as your1279DoD remedies, but I have to yield back. Thank you.1280    Ms. Mace. I will now recognize Ms. Stansbury for 5 minutes.1281    Ms. Stansbury. Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Dodaro, thank1282you so much for being here today, and also congratulations on1283your soon-to-be retirement. Thank you for your service to our1284country.1285    I want to just take a couple of minutes to talk about what1286this hearing actually is, which is to talk about the High Risk1287List. I am a former OMB'er, and we use GAO's reports at OMB to1288actually implement change across the Federal Government. And1289so, I am very acquainted with all the work of your staff. Thank1290you for everything that you do.1291    So, I want to just clarify for folks who are watching at1292home, the Government Accountability Office is a nonpartisan1293government Agency. It is part of Congress. It is part of the1294legislative branch. And your job is to audit, evaluate,1295investigate, and to provide recommendations as a congressional1296watchdog, both to Congress and to the executive branch,1297correct?1298    Mr. Dodaro. That is correct.1299    Ms. Stansbury. And what you do every year as part of your1300work is produce this High Risk List. And this year, the one you1301are presenting to us today includes 38 areas that you have1302identified that, as you just said in your testimony, would save1303money, help ensure the health and safety of the American1304public, and help to build trust in our Federal agencies. And I1305want to briefly talk about some of the things that appear on1306this list.1307    In fact, as you mentioned in your testimony, the first1308thing on here is the improvement of delivery of Federal1309disaster assistance. That is FEMA. Second is improvements in1310surface transportation. We have got HHS and Public Health1311Services, Department of the Bureau of Prison improvements.1312There is a bunch of DoD recommendations here about improving1313contracting and business practices, improving Small Business1314Administration, resolving Federal housing finance issues1315through HUD, EPA issues around environmental liability. There1316is National Nuclear Security on here; enforcing tax laws,1317including the IRS; improving certain FDA and DOI programs;1318improving VA service; CMS programs; and also the regulation of1319the financial regulatory system. And all of these things really1320are about the transformation of how the Federal Government1321provides services. And I heard you just say to Mr. Lynch as1322well as to Mr. Khanna, that with respect to some of the1323specific programs that were asked about, that the just1324indiscriminate elimination of funding and staffing for these1325programs would not only fail to actually resolve the issues1326that you guys have identified, but potentially make them worse.1327Is that correct?1328    Mr. Dodaro. That is a possibility.1329    Ms. Stansbury. Yes. So, obviously, there has been a lot of1330conversation today in this Committee about the actions that are1331being taken pursuant to DOGE by Elon Musk and these1332indiscriminate funding freezes that are happening, the1333dismantling of these programs, the hacking of Federal data, and1334the mass firings, and we know that there is more that are1335planned for this week. But unfortunately, we do not exactly1336know what Elon Musk has actually been up to because he wo not1337come to this Committee, and, in fact, our Republican colleagues1338have shielded him from having to appear. But he did appear over1339the weekend at CPAC at their political action event that was1340held here in the Washington area.1341    [Poster.]1342    Ms. Stansbury. And here he is. He was wielding a chainsaw1343with the Argentinian leader. And I will just say, as somebody1344who grew up working construction, I know what two dudes who do1345not know what to do with the chainsaw look like. But it is also1346obvious that these guys actually do not also know how to manage1347a Federal Government and how to address high-risk areas where1348we actually do need to address issues of waste, fraud, and1349abuse. And in fact, because I worked at OMB, I know that not1350only are they not addressing these issues, they are looting the1351Federal Government and breaking the law daily. And this1352recklessness has really severe consequences, as was just1353outlined by some of the other commentary already, but I want to1354know some of the human impacts.1355    In my district--I was just home this weekend--we heard from1356tribal college teachers who were fired, VA employees who are1357not able to help support the veterans that they work with, a1358colleague of mine who was told this week that his PTSD1359counseling would be canceled. Tribal justice programs that pay1360for cops had their funding frozen. I mean, the reality is, is1361that this guy right here, who is an unelected billionaire, is1362literally looting the Federal Government right now, and he has1363no idea what he is doing. He is not even addressing the1364fundamental problems that have been identified by our1365nonpartisan watchdog. So, I want to be clear also that the1366Republicans, as of today, just we took a break right before1367this Committee went and voted on a rule to advance a tax1368package that would make these cuts permanent to pay for a1369permanent tax break for billionaires. So, what these guys are1370up to is not about government efficiency. It is about looting1371the American people in the Treasury to pay for billionaire tax1372cuts. With that, I yield back.1373    Ms. Mace. OK. I will now recognize Mr. Cloud for 5 minutes.1374    Mr. Cloud. Thank you, Chairwoman, and thank you,1375Commissioner, for being here. Our country, of course, is $361376trillion in debt. The American people, if we were to ask them,1377and we have in the previous election, if we are to ask them if1378we thought the Federal Government was working for them, they1379would say, no, it seems like we are working for the Federal1380Government. Yet, we continue to hear over and over from the1381left that people who are coming in and doing things differently1382do not know how to run the government. And the argument seems1383to be like, well, we need people who know how to do what we1384have been doing, even though it has continually led to failure.1385    Now I have, since being a new Member here, have appreciated1386you coming before this Committee because for the last several1387years, I felt like you were maybe the best good-faith effort in1388helping us find waste, fraud, and abuse. The last several weeks1389have been very interesting as new technology tools have been1390brought to the table. And I find myself kind of like little1391quagmire here in the sense, like, I have always thought it odd1392that we begin counting waste, fraud, and abuse at a billion1393dollars, even though it is the best good-faith effort we have1394had. I have said a number of times, like, your report should1395probably be our agenda as a committee or, certainly, somebody1396should be doing it. In the last few weeks, so, we have seen a1397handful of very young people with some very specific technical1398skills come and seem to expose a lot that we have not been able1399to see through the Government Accountability Office, so we have1400a lot of new information at our disposal when it comes to the1401very specific things that we are seeing.1402    I wanted to touch on the report because, while I do think1403that you do good work, I was also concerned about some of the1404things that I do see in the report and maybe some of the lenses1405that things are being interpreted through. One, for example,1406interest payments, and what we are paying on interest is not1407even mentioned, and yet it is superseding our military1408spending. One of the things you mentioned is strategic human1409capital, and all the solutions to address it have to do with1410basically more government, OK? We need more programs, and more1411training, and more--and it continues to fall into this thing1412that we see continually throughout the bureaucracy where the1413answer to failed government is more government. And sometimes1414that can be the case, but there is nothing addressing the fact1415that it takes 2 years to fire a bad employee.1416    We could talk about the State Department recently, a lot to1417come out about USAID and transgender operas overseas, and those1418kind of things. I did not see, and again, it is 300 pages. I1419might have missed it, but I did not see very much addressing1420the State Department. And then there was a lot concerning1421climate stuff, specifically when it came to connecting disaster1422relief to climate activity, manmade carbon, carbon creation.1423Connecting that to hurricanes is, at best, debatable science1424right now, yet the report acts as if it is established, long-1425held science and makes a number of recommendations for that. On1426the other hand, it says that we need to look at oil and gas1427revenues, and you actually mentioned it earlier that maybe we1428need more. But we are talking about $15 billion there and1429maybe, what, maybe there is 10 percent we are not getting. So,1430we are talking $1 billion to $5 billion, but yet on the EV1431mandates, we lost $7.5 billion dollars. That is not addressed1432in the report as well. So, I have some concerns about whether--1433we talk about it being nonpartisan. I think that is your best1434intention, but at the same time, with a multi-thousand people1435on staff, I have some concerns about the true nonpartisan1436nature of the report.1437    I do want to give you some time to address something1438because a lot has come up about Medicaid recently. There is a1439lot of fearmongering, chicken little stories, the sky is1440falling if we do or touch anything in Medicaid. Meanwhile, we1441know that if we are going to correct course on the fiscal1442course of our Nation, we have to address the mandatory side of1443things. But you give a number of things touching Medicaid that1444we can do, that do not actually address the people that1445Medicaid was affected for. In other words, we are not taking1446disabled people off Medicaid, where children, their needs are1447still being met. Could you talk about some of those ways that1448we can find savings for the American people do apply there?1449    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, before I get to Medicaid, though, let me1450just touch on some of the things you talk about. First, on an1451interest on the debt, I issued a special report on the fiscal1452health of the Federal Government, basically saying it is on an1453unsustainable long-term fiscal path. I specifically call out1454the increase in interest on the debt, call for a plan to put1455the Federal Government on a more sustainable fiscal path, point1456out the main cost drivers, which are healthcare, demographics,1457and growth in interest on the debt.1458    Mr. Cloud. Thank you.1459    Mr. Dodaro. And I have also made recommendations for about1460a decade to try to change the approach to setting the debt1461ceiling, which does nothing to control the debt.1462    On the issue on staffing, we are not saying you need more1463government. We are saying Congress and the Administration said1464this is what we want to do, and what we are saying is, OK, you1465do not have the people in order to accomplish what Congress has1466set in statute and the Administration's priorities are. So, we1467are not determining the size and scope of government. That is1468up to the elected officials. We are saying, however you define1469it, it is not being implemented properly. Last on the climate1470issue----1471    Mr. Cloud. On that point, with the change of policy that we1472are seeing from the Trump Administration, could we expect this1473report to deal with climate issues differently and oil and gas1474issues differently?1475    Mr. Dodaro. Well, yes, and the climate issue, I want to be1476clear on that. Our only focus on the climate issue is not on1477what is causing it, what has changed. It is on the fiscal1478exposure to the Federal Government, and that is the Federal1479Government as an insurer. Our Flood Insurance Program is not1480actuarially sound. The Flood Insurance Program owes $22.51481billion to the Treasury after the Congress has already forgiven1482$17 billion. The Defense Department has been under instructions1483from the Congress to look at its impact on its installations1484domestically and internationally. The agriculture crop1485insurance has more than doubled over a period of time.1486Wildfires have expanded, and the Federal Government is fiscally1487exposed.1488    So, all we are saying is, as the fiscal guardians of the1489Federal Government, it is costing a lot more money, and it1490would be better to focus on resilience and to try to build1491things in up front. We are not commenting on the science of it1492or whatever on that area. Let me ask my colleague to talk about1493Medicaid because we have a lot of good suggestions.1494    Ms. Farb. I will try to be quick. So, we have over 651495recommendations, but there are three key ones that kind of get1496at program integrity in the Medicaid program, to your point,1497Congressman. So, looking at the budget neutrality of Medicaid1498demonstrations and making sure that CMS is really clear about1499what that means. When states experiment, we want to make sure1500that we are not spending more than we otherwise would have.1501Looking at the data behind some of the non-Federal share of1502payments in Medicaid. So, understanding state-directed payments1503to manage care plans and understanding sort of provider taxes1504and other things that states use to help finance their share.1505And then leveraging the findings of work that they can be doing1506with state auditors, we have made a lot of points about this.1507Just using the trends in the findings that the state auditors1508find through their audits to inform their own oversight of the1509program, so all areas directed at program integrity activities.1510    Mr. Cloud. Thank you. Appreciate your work.1511    Chaiman Comer. [Presiding] The Chair recognizes--let me,1512for a second time--then go to Mr. Garcia--and we can follow up1513with that.1514    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. I was just going to say, I will submit the1515fiscal health report for the record for the Committee.1516    Chairman Comer. OK. Thank you. The Chair recognizes Mr.1517Garcia.1518    Mr. Garcia. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I do1519want to appreciate the work of the GAO. I think there is an1520incredible work that happens there, and, of course, a lot of1521uncovering of waste, fraud, and abuse happens. Mr. Dodaro, I1522want to thank you for your important testimony. I agree there1523is absolutely a responsibility for us to look at ways of1524reducing the deficit, to actually make government more1525efficient. And I think that, while I served as Mayor before1526coming to this Committee, we worked really hard with our1527auditor, with our state auditor, to do just that, and so thank1528you for being here.1529    So, Mr. Dodaro, I do have some simple yes or no questions1530for you, which I think are important. Mr. Dodaro, do you1531believe that the recently firing of promoted Federal workers1532who are, therefore, on probationary status does anything to1533solve the important problems that you have raised today? Yes or1534no.1535    Mr. Dodaro. Well, I agreed to, well, sworn to tell the1536whole truth, nothing but the truth, and the whole truth1537sometimes does not get reduced to a yes or no answer. And so,1538in that case, I think it is important to look at what functions1539were being provided and what was done in those cases, but it is1540important that the rules be followed, that there are certain1541personnel requirements and rules----1542    Mr. Garcia. Would you say yes or no?1543    Mr. Dodaro. The question was whether it would solve any of1544the problems that we identified on the High Risk List, and the1545answer to that question would be, it is doubtful.1546    Mr. Garcia. Exactly, and I agree with you. I agree it would1547be a ``no.'' Now, what about has the GAO recommendation ever1548included firing FAA aircraft safety inspectors who repair air1549traffic control facilities?1550    Mr. Dodaro. No.1551    Mr. Garcia. No. I agree. Has the GAO ever made any1552recommendation on firing USDA Animal and Plant Health1553Inspection Service workers who are tracking the bird flu1554outbreak or other outbreaks in poultry or cattle?1555    Mr. Dodaro. I do not believe so, no.1556    Mr. Garcia. Thank you. That is a ``no.'' Has the GAO1557recommended firing National Nuclear Security Administration1558workers who oversee our Nation's nuclear stockpile?1559    Mr. Dodaro. No.1560    Mr. Garcia. What about firing the only locksmith at1561Yosemite National Park? Has the GAO ever recommended that?1562    Mr. Dodaro. I am not sure we have ever run into the1563locksmith at the park.1564    Mr. Garcia. And the answer to that is you have not.1565    Mr. Dodaro. Right.1566    Mr. Garcia. And so, I thank you for that because, of1567course, none of these have ever actually aligned with any of1568the recommendations that have come out of your office, but yet,1569they are clearly huge priorities for Elon Musk and his DOGE1570team. It obviously is a crusade against the government, against1571actually helping people across this country, and it is the1572hypocrisy that we are seeing today, and there are committees1573that I think is quite disturbing to House Democrats.1574    Now, Republican colleagues have spent a lot of time warning1575about unsustainable deficits. We know that today there is a1576huge vote, of course, we know, on a budget. Their budget1577version and bill has a $4.5 trillion tax cut giveaway,1578essentially, when we should be asking the super-rich to1579actually pay more, and at the center of this we know is a huge1580cut to Medicaid. They are targeting at least $880 billion,1581maybe more, in Medicaid cuts. Now, in my district alone, we1582have 300,000 people that are dependent on Medicaid,1583approximately, which is a huge amount of the community and the1584district. Now, nationally, 80 million people we know are on1585Medicaid, but it actually impacts every single district across1586the country, whether you are talking about Kentucky's 1st1587District, where 26.5 percent of the population there, 155,0001588people, are dependent on Medicaid; whether it is in Ohio's 4th1589District, over 100,000 people depend on Medicaid, it is 151590percent of the population; whether it is in the Louisiana 3rd1591District, 196,000, almost 200,000 people dependent on Medicaid;1592or in in Georgia's 14th District, where 109,000 people, or 161593percent of the population, are dependent on Medicaid.1594    We know that Medicaid saves lives. These are huge numbers1595of people. These are folks that are colleagues of ours and the1596other side of the aisle, that are Members also of this1597Committee, and that oftentimes are here at this Committee. So,1598this actually has an impact to our constituents. It means1599elderly and disabled people will not get their healthcare,1600their long-term care. It actually impacts people that have real1601substance abuse issues.1602    And one other thing that people do not realize about1603Medicaid, there is a lot of conversation in this country about1604births and encouraging people to have more children. Medicaid1605covers 41 percent of all births in our country. Forty-one1606percent of U.S. births were paid for by Medicaid. And so, if1607this is really about supporting families and about expanding1608families, we should also be talking about supporting and1609expanding Medicaid coverage for Americans. We should be1610providing more coverage, not less.1611    And so, with that, I want to thank you again for your work,1612and I am hopeful that enough Republicans in today's vote will1613do the right thing and avoid these Medicaid cuts. With that I1614yield back.1615    Chaiman Comer. The gentleman yields back. The Chair1616recognizes Ms. Greene.1617    Ms. Greene. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for being1618here today, Mr. Dodaro, and congratulations on your upcoming1619retirement.1620    For the past 4 years, Democrats have been in control of1621basically all government functions for the American people. We1622are at $36 trillion in debt, and the lies are getting to be1623outrageous. Just listen to one of my colleagues talk about1624Medicaid. The truth is for people watching at home, your1625Medicaid benefits cannot get cut unless the Governor of your1626state and the state cuts your benefits. That is the real truth.1627Republicans here in Washington, here in Congress, we are not1628taking away anyone's Medicaid benefits. As a matter of fact, we1629are trying to cut out improper payments. We are trying to cut1630out fraud.1631    At my DOGE Subcommittee, I had a hearing just 2 weeks ago1632where we talked about improper payments. It is unbelievable,1633and I am sure you would agree, Mr. Dodaro, that the amount of1634money that is being paid to dead people, to foreigners, to1635criminals, to terrorists, is amounting in the billions and1636billions of dollars every single year. That is what Democrats1637and Republicans should be agreeing on. We should be able to1638come together and say let us stop this immediately.1639    Another thing that I find outrageous is that Democrats1640under the Biden Administration passed $7.5 billion in spending1641to build 500,000 electric vehicle charging stations all over1642the country, whether Americans wanted them or not, but only 81643of these electric vehicle charging stations even got built. I1644think that should have been in your top 25 list because where1645is that money? Honestly, where is that money? That is a great1646question.1647    Some other things that I would like to bring up to you here1648is, GAO estimates that total fraud in these programs for1649unemployment insurance, and you were just talking about it,1650during the pandemic is at least $60 billion. Americans all over1651the country will never forget that Democrats shut our country1652down, shut our businesses down, people got fired, their1653churches was closed, all their rights were taken away. And $601654billion from the Department of Labor, the Department of Labor1655has still not developed an anti-fraud strategy, even though $601656billion is missing.1657    Also, the Medicare Program and scale of Medicare spending1658is innately high risk, with the program spending an estimated1659$1 trillion in 2024. Of that, in Fiscal Year 2024, we saw1660roughly, I will go back to improper payments again, $54.31661billion in improper payments, and we have Democrats crying over1662Elon Musk. Are you kidding me? The American people, the polling1663is out, 72 percent, Democrats and Republicans, support DOGE.1664Support it, 72 percent. They are not upset about anything that1665Elon Musk is doing. As a matter of fact, they are happy. They1666want all of these improper payments, all of this waste, they1667want it back.1668    Now, here is what is really interesting to me. Despite this1669significant progress made since GAO's 2023 high risk update--1670thank you for that--USPS remains unable to fund its services1671and employee obligations. That is outrageous. Private companies1672have to be able to fund everything they do, but the United1673States Postal Service still cannot do it. Now, the big one--the1674big one--the Department of Defense, financial management, first1675appeared on the High Risk List in 1995. Hey, I graduated from1676high school in 1992. That is a long time ago now, and it1677remains on this list, 28 years later. Twenty-eight years later,1678Congress has not fixed this. The Department of Defense has not1679fixed this. And last year, the Pentagon, with a budget of1680around $850 billion, failed its seventh straight audit. What1681are we doing? What are we doing? We should be at the most1682bipartisan time in history where Republicans and Democrats can1683come together and say the American people's money is being1684stolen. It is being lost. It is outright treason to treat the1685American people this way.1686    Mr. Dodaro, let me ask you this question. I cannot imagine1687all the things you all have seen in your work. Do you disagree1688with the effort of DOGE?1689    Mr. Dodaro. There is probably nobody in the government that1690wants the government to be more efficient and effective than we1691do at the GAO, and I do, personally. That is our job to help do1692that, and we have worked many, many years in order to bring1693about those changes, so, yes. Now, there are couple of1694bipartisan things that you touched on that I think you and this1695Committee could do. One is we have recommended that they make,1696in order to stop paying dead people, the Social Security master1697death file is given to Treasury, but only for a 3-year period.1698They have already saved millions of dollars. Congress needs to1699make it permanent. You could save hundreds of billions, of1700millions, of dollars if that is done.1701    Ms. Greene. Can I get information from your team afterward?1702    Mr. Dodaro. Absolutely.1703    Ms. Greene. OK. That would be great. What about identity1704verification?1705    Mr. Dodaro. Identity verification needs to be more1706automated, and we have recommendations for that to occur in the1707unemployment insurance area. Actually, the unemployment1708insurance estimate on fraud we made was $100 billion to $1351709billion.1710    Ms. Greene. Wow.1711    Mr. Dodaro. The other thing that could be done on a1712bipartisan basis is that the statute of limitations to go after1713the fraudsters needs to be extended from 5 to 10 years.1714Congress did it for the Paycheck Protection Program, but not1715for unemployment insurance. It is almost due to expire. So, if1716Congress does not act soon, some of the fraudsters are likely1717to get away because they will be outside the statute of1718limitation. So, those things are really important and I think1719should be bipartisan.1720    Ms. Greene. I agree. I think my time is up. Thank you, Mr.1721Dodaro.1722    Chairman Comer. Thank you. And Ranking Member pointed out,1723we have gone over a little bit on the last two on our side. If1724someone feels the need to go over, I am keeping up with the1725time. So, we will make it all work out. The Chair recognizes1726Ms. Brown.1727    Ms. Brown. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman Comer, and thank1728you to Mr. Dodaro for joining us today. This Administration1729claims to care about rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse, but1730the facts tell a very different story, so I just want to set1731the record straight. On week one, President Trump fired 171732Inspectors General. These are the folks who work on behalf of1733the people, Republicans and Democrats, regardless of party1734affiliation or who is in the White House. They are the1735watchdogs who root out government waste, fraud, and abuse, day1736in and day out. Last year they identified nearly $100 billion1737in potential savings. If Donald Trump and Elon Musk cared about1738cracking down on waste, they would be talking to these1739auditors, not firing them right out of the gate.1740    Meanwhile, the Government Accountability Office provides1741cost-cutting recommendations that save taxpayers $40 billion1742each year. So, if Trump was serious about efficiency, it would1743focus on implementing the thousands of outstanding GAO1744recommendations, including the 38 areas on the High Risk List,1745but that is not what is happening. Instead, Trump created the1746redundant Department of Government Efficiency, putting his1747billionaire campaign donor, Elon Musk, who just so happens to1748be a government contractor, in charge. That is not efficiency.1749That is corruption dressed up as reform.1750    DOGE's records so far? Overstated claims, receipts that do1751not add up, lies about condoms in Gaza, lies about 130-year-1752olds on Social Security, an $8 billion contract that was really1753$8 million. Can somebody say ``oops?'' DOGE claims to have1754saved $55 billion. Well, Rupert Murdoch's, Wall Street Journal1755crunched the numbers this weekend and found just $2.6 billion1756in savings, mostly from canceled contracts and cuts in research1757funding for things like Alzheimer's and chronic lung disease,1758which brings me to my questions. Mr. Dodaro, how does the GAO1759define ``government waste?''1760    Mr. Dodaro. Waste is defined as extravagant spending or1761something that does not really add any value in terms of the1762government's overall accomplishment of goals.1763    Ms. Brown. Thank you, and based on that definition, would1764eliminating the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau qualify as1765cutting waste or making a policy choice?1766    Mr. Dodaro. That is basically a value judgment and a policy1767choice in order to do that.1768    Ms. Brown. Thank you. In my district, a Federal grant to1769train teachers in underserved urban schools was terminated1770solely because it was labeled as a DEI initiative. Is this1771cutting waste or making a policy choice?1772    Mr. Dodaro. Waste to one person is not waste to another1773person, but these are basically value judgments that are made1774and based on policy preferences.1775    Ms. Brown. In your testimony, you mentioned that 20 of the177638 areas on the High Risk List in part are due to skills gaps1777or inadequate number of staff. Would indiscriminately firing1778probationary staff make it more or less likely that government1779addresses waste, fraud, and abuse?1780    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, I answered this question earlier. I said1781it was doubtful.1782    Ms. Brown. Doubtful. Thank you. In your testimony, it1783highlights that the gross tax gap, which is the difference1784between taxes owed and taxes paid on time. Can you remind us1785what the tax gap was in 2022?1786    Mr. Dodaro. I would have to go back and take a look at what1787it was in 2022, but it has been about the same as a percent of1788the economy over time. Even though the numbers have grown as a1789percent of GDP, it is about the same.1790    Ms. Brown. What would that percentage be?1791    Mr. Dodaro. I would have to----1792    Ms. Brown. All right. Let me just move on to my next1793question.1794    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, I will provide that for the record. I have1795it.1796    Ms. Brown. So, I am going to step out on a limb and say it1797is about $700 billion a year that American taxpayers are being1798robbed of, roughly, and that sure sounds like a lot of waste to1799me. Now, would firing some 6,000 IRS workers lead to more or1800less of that waste?1801    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, it depends on what their jobs are at the1802IRS. Basically, they need more revenue agents, they need more1803training, they need people for customer service. So, you would1804have to look at what functions those people do and decide1805whether or not they are important or not.1806    Ms. Brown. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And let me1807just clarify, high-income individuals are among the most1808notorious tax cheats, and these are the same people Republicans1809want to reward with a $4.5 trillion tax cut at the expense of1810Medicaid, veterans benefits, and food assistance for children1811and seniors, and that is what this is really all about. DOGE is1812not about saving money, you all. It is about consolidating1813power and ensuring that the rich get richer. So, from where I1814sit, it looks like Trump and Elon Musk are not fighting waste.1815They are just ensuring that the waste benefits the wealthy. And1816with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.1817    Chairman Comer. The gentlelady yields back. The Chair1818recognizes Mr. Perry from Pennsylvania.1819    Mr. Perry. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Dodaro, thanks. Good1820to see you again. You know a lot of things about a lot of1821things, so, I am going to go somewhere where at least it has1822been bipartisan. And I hope just by talking about it, that does1823not destroy that, because we got a lot of work to do.1824    The Federal Government owns about a quarter a million1825buildings and structures, about 2 billion square feet of office1826space. A study by your Agency recently indicated 17 of the 241827agencies reviewed used 25 percent or less of their headquarters1828office space. Even at their high mark, of 24 Federal agencies,1829none of them use more than 49 percent. We got more than 11,0001830acres of old unused buildings, and the American taxpayer, they1831are forced to pay $2 billion a year for office space that sits1832empty. Eighty percent of leases are going to expire in the next18335 years. I do not know if you are looking to take a contractor1834job after you leave this rat race, but maybe that is something1835you are interested in.1836    GAO reported just this year that real property management1837was downgraded from ``met'' to ``partially met.'' Now, I think1838you are familiar with the thing called the USE IT Act, which we1839passed out of that committee. Bipartisan, not easy, but1840bipartisan, and alongside OMB's benchmark, we would like to1841remedy the situation of $2 billion a year for more than 11,0001842acres of old, unused office space. I mean, that is more than1843half the size of Disney World, just like sitting there empty,1844but we are paying for it. You know a lot of things. What would1845be your recommendation to Congress and to OPM to speed up the1846implementation process? As you know, most of these agencies do1847not want to give any of it up, even though they are not using1848it, right, but they do not want to give any of it up. So, what1849do we do, each one, Congress and OMB?1850    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, Dave Marroni is here. He did the study1851that you referenced. I will let him----1852    Mr. Perry. All right.1853    Mr. Dodaro [continuing]. Explain in a minute, but the one1854thing I would say that Congress needs to do is to make sure1855that there are lessons learned. Congress tried to expedite this1856by creating a board, and the board was to identify properties1857for sale. They had three rounds. It barely made a dent in1858anything. They were not in sync with OMB. There are no lessons1859learned. That is why we downgraded them. There is still not a1860process to dispose of Federal Real Property quickly and1861expeditiously. And Congress can create that and set milestones.1862I think it is very good that you set benchmarks for utilization1863of the buildings that we keep, but we got to get rid of a lot1864of buildings.1865    Mr. Perry. We have set the benchmarks, right?1866    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.1867    Mr. Perry. But we have agencies that cannot meet them or1868will not meet them or do not meet them, but they still want to1869hang on to them.1870    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, but you got to get rid of some of the1871properties, and they could not enumerate.1872    Mr. Marroni. Yes. Well, same benchmark is an important1873point in the law you referenced. There is also, within a year,1874the measurements requiring OMB and GSA to start notifying1875agencies if they have extra space, but I think you can do it.1876Once those measurements are in place, how many people are1877coming in to these buildings on daily basis, use those1878measurements to say, OK, we have extra space, and then the1879agencies need to expeditiously move forward.1880    OMB has a role there to ensure that they are setting1881appropriate timeframes for agencies to respond if they are not1882doing it on their own. Congress has a role in your oversight of1883the implementation of the USE IT Act. And as the Comptroller1884General mentioned as well, taking a look at the disposal1885process for once owned buildings are going into the pipeline to1886be gotten rid of, looking at ways to shorten it, make it less1887complicated. We have noted for years that it is a complex,1888complicated process. It takes too long.1889    And the reform process, the FASTA process, was an attempt1890to look at ways to do that. Your legislation has extended the1891life of FASTA, so it is an opportunity, really, to take1892lessons, not only on what properties can we dispose of, but how1893can we do it more quickly because there is a lot of extra1894space.1895    Mr. Perry. So, are you saying it requires more legislation1896from us regarding the standards and the process? Is that what1897it requires, or can this be done by the Agency like GSA? Can1898they do this on their own? And even though we want them to1899divest, sometimes they do not, and even when we give them a1900timeline, the timelines keep slipping, so then what?1901    Mr. Marroni. So, I think having the data now, as you know1902from that report for your subcommittee, prior to that, there1903was not even data on utilization outside of headquarters1904buildings, very limited to know, so it is hard to tell how much1905space you need if you are not actually measuring it. That1906legislation will now require the collection of that data for1907both owned and leased space throughout the country. That is1908what is really important, for the agencies to take a look at1909that data, and OMB to be there to push, to say, OK, if you are1910extra, if you have more than you need, start getting rid of it.1911    Mr. Perry. Would it be an impoundment if OMB just said,1912look, you have extra, you are not utilizing, we are paying for1913X and we are not paying for the rest, as a forcing function?1914    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. No, no. What I think needs to be done,1915there is a Federal building fund. In order to dispose of some1916of this property, you need to fix it up sometimes and make it1917available for sale.1918    Mr. Perry. We did not get into the backlog of maintenance1919cost and all of that.1920    Mr. Dodaro. Right, but in this case, though, Congress has1921been using the Federal Building fund for other purposes, so, I1922think we have to come to grips with, if you want to----1923    Mr. Perry. Unbelievable, right, that they would do that.1924    Mr. Dodaro. Nothing shocks me after being in this job for1925so long, but, I mean, we have to get in sync. And the other1926thing Congress ought to do is make sure that wherever the1927extension of FASTA is, they work in concert with OMB and GSA.1928Last time they were working in parallel. They were not working1929together.1930    Mr. Perry. OK. I thank you, Chairman. I yield.1931    Chairman Comer. Thank you. The Chair recognizes Ms. Lee.1932    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Dodaro, thank you for1933being here today and sharing with this Committee this year's1934High Risk List. This, of course, is the list that the1935Government Accountability Office puts out every year that lays1936out the government programs most at risk for waste, fraud, and1937abuse, and recommends ways to approve them. If that sounds1938familiar, it is because that is what DOGE is pretending to do,1939but the work that GAO does is not pretend, and they produce1940benefits at an average of $40 billion each year. Mr. Dodaro,1941your time at GAO goes back more than 50 years, as you told us.1942So, it is fair to say that you have a lot of experience with1943this list and the GAO's work, correct?1944    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.1945    Ms. Lee. Thank you. I have just a few yes or no questions.1946Not that I do not value your judgments, yes or no questions1947about some of the contents of the High Risk List. One of the1948areas identified in this list is the need to provide veterans1949with better and more timely healthcare. Does your report1950recommend improving veteran healthcare by cutting more than one1951thousand jobs?1952    Mr. Dodaro. By what?1953    Ms. Lee. By cutting more than one thousand jobs?1954    Mr. Dodaro. No, it does not.1955    Ms. Lee. Thank you. How about the USDA? Does your report1956recommend firing the workers tackling the bird flu outbreak?1957    Mr. Dodaro. No.1958    Ms. Lee. Another major area your list identifies is IT and1959cybersecurity improvement. Does your list recommend anywhere1960that the Federal Government start bypassing security protocols1961and installing outside and unvetted software?1962    Mr. Dodaro. No.1963    Ms. Lee. Is cutting diversity, equity, and inclusion1964programs recommended anywhere in your report?1965    Mr. Dodaro. No, we do not discuss those issues.1966    Ms. Lee. So, no?1967    Mr. Dodaro. No, that is not a topic in the report.1968    Ms. Lee. So, it is not there?1969    Mr. Dodaro. Right.1970    Ms. Lee. Thank you. Those are all actions taken by Elon1971Musk and DOGE wrecking crew, and it is not surprising that none1972of it is actually doing anything to improve waste, fraud, and1973abuse. It is also not surprising that none of Musk's billions1974in government contracts have been cut, yet none of the actions1975by Trump and Musk have helped the American people. Eggs are1976still expensive, so expensive that Waffle House has added a1977surcharge, and thousands of hardworking Federal workers across1978the country have lost their jobs. Slashing all the funding for1979programs and services now is only going to lead to more1980inefficiencies and more costs later.1981    The GAO literally has a blueprint of what to do to save1982billions. The High Risk List is reported out every year. We1983have a hearing on it every year, yet Trump and Musk are1984ignoring these reports. Instead, they are gutting our1985government programs and services to root out waste and to fix1986our $36 trillion debt crisis. In reality, Trump and Musk want1987all of us to pay for a massive $4.5 trillion tax giveaway to1988the mega rich. Make no mistake, $4.5 trillion tax giveaway is1989government spending, and it will balloon the deficit. If1990Republicans want to be serious about tackling our debt, they1991should start there. Start by putting the American people ahead1992of the pocketbooks of their billionaire elite friends.1993    Thank you again for your time, Mr. Dodaro. I yield back to1994the Ranking Member.1995    Mr. Connolly. I thank my colleague, and I echo what she has1996just said. Mr. Dodaro, the Inspectors General are an important1997part of accountability, transparency, efficiency, and oversight1998of the Federal Government in a broad scope. Does firing 17 of1999those inspectors general help with government efficiency?2000    Mr. Dodaro. No. I think the firing was----2001    Mr. Connolly. Speak up, please. I cannot hear you.2002    Mr. Dodaro. I am sorry. I am sorry. No, I think it was very2003unfortunate. I think we lost a lot of institutional knowledge2004and expertise with those firings. There were some Inspector2005Generals fired back in the first Trump Administration, and I2006issued a report talking about the importance of independent2007Inspectors General and recommended that the Congress add some2008provisions, the 30-day notice period, because the Inspector2009Generals also report to the Congress. They are very unique part2010of our government system, even though they are in the executive2011branch. I do not dispute the President's authority to fire2012them, but there should be notice of 30 days given and specific2013reasons for the firings, but I think it is important to have2014independent IGs.2015    Mr. Connolly. It should be performance based, and there has2016to be cause. Otherwise, we are jeopardizing the independence of2017the Inspectors General. I thank my colleague for yielding.2018    Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognized the next Governor2019of Florida for 5 minutes.2020    Mr. Donalds. I actually appreciate that, Mr. Chairman.2021Thank you. Mr. Dodaro, it is good to see you again. Thanks for2022being back. Since 2003, Federal agencies have reported about2023$2.8 trillion in improper payments, including over the last 72024years consecutively, at a minimum, $150 billion in each one of2025those years. The High Risk report mentions that the Department2026of Agriculture, HHS, HUD, DHS, OPM, and SBA all failed to2027report improper payment estimates in Fiscal Year 2023.2028    And to reiterate for the American people, we have seven2029agencies of the Federal Government that have not reported on2030their improper payments. And, if memory serves, the last report2031GAO issued had improper payments north of $240 billion that was2032reported. What are some of the real issues within the Federal2033Government for the lack of ability for these agencies to report2034on improper payments within their purview?2035    Mr. Dodaro. I think there needs to be more pressure put on2036those agencies by the administrations that are in place, and I2037have talked to the prior administrations about this, and2038Congress needs to demand that the law be followed than they do2039improper payment estimates. I mean, I think it is not good2040management to not know how much you are paying that you should2041not be paying. It is not good fiscal stewardship. So, I am very2042disappointed they are not reporting, and I would encourage the2043Congress and the Trump Administration to require the reporting2044now.2045    Mr. Donalds. I would agree with you wholeheartedly. Let me2046ask you the question, the agencies that did not report, some of2047them vary in size. Obviously, Department of Homeland Security2048is a major department of the Federal Government.2049    Mr. Dodaro. Right.2050    Mr. Donalds. Considering that, let us just say, for2051estimates sake--I do not have the report in front of me--that2052in Fiscal Year of 2023, improper payments were $250 billion. If2053we had the estimates of those seven departments, what do you2054think the actual outstanding was from 2023?2055    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, I really hesitate to guess. The one thing2056Congress needs to do in this area, though, the Temporary2057Assistance for Needy Families, HHS, they cannot make an2058estimate unless Congress changes the law. So, they refuse to do2059it, saying they do not have the legal authority to require the2060states to give them the information they need in order make an2061improper payment estimate. So, Congress needs to change the2062statute there.2063    Mr. Donalds. OK.2064    Mr. Dodaro. And I think that is important.2065    Mr. Donalds. All right. Thank you. FEMA is currently2066managing over 600 major disaster declarations, some of which2067have occurred 20 years ago. One of the GAO recommendations in2068this year's High Risk report is that FEMA should identify and2069document lessons learned related to estimating obligations for2070catastrophic disasters. Can you expand upon this?2071    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. I will ask, Mr. Currie is our expert.2072    Mr. Donalds. Sure. Mr. Currie? Thank you.2073    Mr. Currie. Sure. FEMA has always struggled with this2074because they do not know how much they are going to need in a2075particular year. And then when you have a catastrophic disaster2076season like you had last year in your home state with Helene2077and Milton, that throws everything off. But COVID really threw2078this off because FEMA did not expect to spend what it spent on2079COVID. At the end of this year, it is going to have spent well2080north of $150 billion on COVID, and what that has done is sort2081of thrown all the estimates off. It has gone up over time,2082which affects their estimates moving forward, and they spent2083way more than they thought they were going to have to spend on2084that. And that is one of the reasons that the Disaster Relief2085Fund is in this constant negative situation. Actually, it is2086going to be $12 billion underwater already at the end of2087September, even after the supplemental appropriation that you2088all provided it late last year.2089    Mr. Donalds. Not to cut you off, but to go down this line2090of that we are talking about, is FEMA still having to make2091payments out associated with COVID-19?2092    Mr. Currie. Absolutely, they are still making payments.2093    Mr. Donalds. Do you have an estimate of how much FEMA is2094still appropriating out because of COVID-19?2095    Mr. Currie. Last time I checked, which was at the end of2096February, they were upwards of $130 billion they had paid out,2097and they expect to spend over $150 billion in the fiscal year.2098They also told us they expect the disaster to run through the2099end of Fiscal Year 2026, next year, and spend almost $1802100billion on that. So, they are still reimbursing state and local2101governments for that.2102    Mr. Donalds. OK. So, they are expected to spend another2103$180 billion reimbursing state and local governments for COVID-210419, and that is a stretch?2105    Mr. Currie. Sorry, another $50 billion.2106    Mr. Donalds. Another $50 billion to take it to $1802107billion?2108    Mr. Currie. Yes, exactly.2109    Mr. Donalds. OK. All right. Thank you for that. I2110appreciate that. I am out of my time. Thank you so much, Mr.2111Chairman. Mr. Dodaro, thank you for your time and your service.2112    Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mr. Subramanyam.2113    Mr. Subramanyam. Subramanyam. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.2114    Chairman Comer. Sorry.2115    Mr. Subramanyam. That is OK. So, before we go on to this,2116someone had said earlier that we cannot cut Medicaid here in2117Congress, and I just want to make sure everyone knows at home2118that that is not true. In fact, my state, this Republican2119budget, which it does, would cut Medicaid benefits even a2120little bit. Everyone who benefited from Medicaid expansion in2121Virginia would actually lose that benefit, and so it would hurt2122us and many other states, millions of people across the2123country.2124    But moving on, thank you, Mr. Dodaro, for coming.2125Actually,saw in the news that DOGE had a savings dashboard2126online. Have you seen the savings dashboard, this website,2127DOGE.gov/savings.2128    Mr. Dodaro. I have not. No.2129    Mr. Subramanyam. OK. Well, I have it up here. It says,2130``Let's balance the budget.'' DOGE's total estimated savings2131are $65 billion, but I would like to enter into the record this2132article, February 25, from the New York Times, ``DOGE Quietly2133Deletes the Five Biggest Spending Cuts it Celebrated Last2134Week.''2135    The subtitle is, ``The cuts highlighted on an earlier2136version of the wall receipts contain mistakes that vastly2137inflated the amount of money saved.'' How much money do you2138think DOGE is actually saving? Do you have just an estimate?2139    Mr. Dodaro. I do not know.2140    Mr. Subramanyam. You do not really know. I do not know2141either. In fact, a lot of us do not know. We really want to ask2142them. It would be really nice if we could. Have you met with2143anyone at DOGE or Elon Musk?2144    Mr. Dodaro. I have not. No.2145    Mr. Subramanyam. OK.2146    Mr. Dodaro. We have had a couple of our people meet with2147some DOGE people at the Treasury Department to talk about our2148audits of the General Fund at the Treasury. Since we audit the2149Federal Government's financial statements, we also audit the2150General Fund, which is all the cash payment systems over there.2151They had some questions about our report. That is the extent of2152it so far. We have a number of requests from Congress to begin2153looking at their access to the systems, and we will begin that2154work at a number of agencies across government.2155    Mr. Subramanyam. I have sent a lot of letters. Have they2156responded to any of your requests so far?2157    Mr. Dodaro. We are just getting started.2158    Mr. Subramanyam. You are just getting? Have you sent any2159actual requests to them?2160    Mr. Dodaro. We have asked for an entrance meeting at the2161Treasury Department, and so we expect to----2162    Mr. Subramanyam. What did they say?2163    Mr. Dodaro. Well, we are in the process. As far as I know,2164we are not having any progress.2165    Mr. Subramanyam. OK. I tried to get into the Treasury2166Department. They would not let me in, so.2167    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, we are their auditors.2168    Mr. Subramanyam. I guess that makes sense, but I am a2169Member of Congress, so that is why I was confused.2170    Mr. Dodaro. I expect and anticipate cooperation.2171    Mr. Subramanyam. Interesting. And so just going on, I have2172heard a lot that this is about addressing the Federal debt. And2173if you got rid of every single Federal civil servant, how much2174of the Federal debt would that actually pay down in--what do2175you think of percentage?2176    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. The total Federal payroll is less than 102177percent of the Federal Government's expenditures. The problem2178with our debt is you could eliminate almost the entire2179discretionary part of the budget and still not really make an2180impact, long-term, on the deficit path that we are on right2181now. I mean, you are $36 trillion in debt right now. The debt-2182to-GDP ratio from debt held by the public as a percent of gross2183domestic product this year will be 100 percent in our entire2184history--in our entire history. It has been 106 percent during2185World War II.2186    Mr. Subramanyam. Sure.2187    Mr. Dodaro. Absent any change in fiscal policy, by 2050, it2188will be over 200 percent of debt-to-GDP ratio. The only way to2189deal with this is to deal with the main driver, which is2190healthcare costs. Now, you can make inroads in terms of----2191    Mr. Subramanyam. But I would conclude from that then that2192this effort is not actually doing much, if anything, to reduce2193the Federal deficit, to reduce our Federal debt. In fact, it is2194a drop in the bucket, I would say. And now let us look at what2195the Federal civil servants who are being fired en mass, being2196targeted en mass, are actually doing. They are firing nuclear2197safety experts, accidentally. They are trying to call them2198back. They cannot even find some of their emails. They deleted2199all their contact info. They fired the staff researching bird2200flu, actually, which is very relevant today. They cut FDA, NIH,2201and CDC staff. Some of the high-risk projects that you are2202talking about, the staff that is integral to implementing a lot2203of your recommendations were actually fired.2204    And then even the website I was just talking about, this2205wall of receipts, they actually messed that up, too. They said2206that they cut about $8 billion at ICE, but it was actually $82207million. And then that is setting aside the fact that they2208gave, accidentally, perhaps, self-proclaimed racists, actually,2209read and write access to the critical Treasury data that2210includes almost every American's personal information. And so,2211it does not seem like this is actually very good. If they are2212trying to cut the deficit, if they are trying to get rid of2213waste, fraud, and abuse, they are doing a really bad job, it2214sounds like. Thank you. I yield my time.2215    Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mr. Burlison from2216Missouri.2217    Mr. Burlison. Thank you. Thank you so much. It is good to2218see you again. I will be sad after you leave. You had mentioned2219in the previous conversation the debt-to-GDP ratio at nearly2220100 percent, but according to the debt clock, at $36 trillion,2221with a GDP of $29.6 trillion, we are actually at 123 percent.2222    Mr. Dodaro. Well, if you count, I am counting just debt2223held by the public. The $36 includes debt that we owe to2224ourselves and intergovernmental transfers like back to Social2225Security and Medicare trust funds. So, you are right if you use2226gross debt. I am using just debt held by the public.2227    Mr. Burlison. And over the next 10 years, we are planning2228to add another $20 trillion, on the current spend level,2229correct?2230    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Yes.2231    Mr. Burlison. So, at what point do we end up in a situation2232where we cannot make the interest payments?2233    Mr. Dodaro. I think this is the big issue, and I have said2234that we have tremendous interest rate exposure because we2235borrow short-term, so we are always refinancing the debt that2236we had before. We never paid down any of it.2237    Mr. Burlison. And rates are going up.2238    Mr. Dodaro. And rates are going up, and that is what has2239happened. The interest on the debt in 2023 was $352 billion.2240This year it will be a trillion. So, compound interest works2241well when you are saving, but not when you are borrowing.2242    Mr. Burlison. Yes. And that is why, for me, the alarming2243number was seeing that the growth in the interest payments from2244last year to this year has been over $200 billion just in the2245growth.2246    Mr. Dodaro. Right.2247    Mr. Burlison. So, when we are talking about a2248reconciliation package, if you are just going to cover the2249growth in the interest payments, you would need to find savings2250of at least $2 trillion over the next 10 years, correct?2251    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. This is a big2252problem.2253    Mr. Burlison. It is a really big problem, and I would2254really welcome if our Democratic colleagues would recognize,2255this is not a Republican problem. It is not a Democrat problem.2256This is a math problem. This is a serious thing that I think we2257only have maybe a few years, a handful of years left to correct2258this before we end up in a debt spiral.2259    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, absolutely, and you are also going to2260confront the depletion of the Social Security Trust Fund and2261the Medicare Part A Trust Fund----2262    Mr. Burlison. In approximately 8 years----2263    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, yes.2264    Mr. Burlison [continuing]. To 11 years?2265    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. The trustees' estimates will be out in2266another couple of months, and I would not be surprised if those2267dates are moved up a tad.2268    Mr. Burlison. So, if we are having a mandatory spending2269conversation, and this is what my question to you is, and I2270think that we universally, even though we are going to be2271criticized as though we are trying to kick people off of2272Medicaid, if the goal is not to kick anybody off of Medicaid2273that needs it, what are the different solutions that are in our2274toolbox where we could eliminate improper payments? I would2275hope to think that Democrats are not opposed to eliminating2276improper payments in Medicaid, right?2277    Mr. Dodaro. No.2278    Mr. Burlison. One would hope. One would hope that they2279would not be opposed to finding fraudsters or people that are2280not supposed to be receiving the benefits, one would hope that2281you would want to find ways of getting the best bang for your2282buck within the program, and that is what I want to kind of2283drill down to. At the end of the day, this is the healthcare2284industry and the costs of healthcare that the Federal2285Government is having to deal with, Medicaid and Medicare, and2286even the insurance on the lives of the Federal workforce,2287correct?2288    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.2289    Mr. Burlison. So, what can we do? Have you guys seen2290anything that can be done that would actually have an impact in2291driving down healthcare costs?2292    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. This is a compound problem because you2293have got healthcare costs going up faster than the economy. And2294you have the demographics are working against us because there2295are older people that are hitting the payroll. It is a2296combination of both things.2297    Mr. Burlison. And then I wanted to, if you could answer2298this before my time runs out.2299    Mr. Dodaro. Sure.2300    Mr. Burlison. Within your answer, I noticed there was a2301study that was done in 2019. I am hoping that you have new2302studies that indicated when you studied the impact that PBMs2303had had and whether or not that the savings was actually coming2304back to the Federal Government and if there is new data,2305because at that time it was 96 percent, that was coming back in2306savings, so?2307    Ms. Farb. On the PBM issue, I am going to have to get back2308to you on how much. We are doing some current work in that area2309in terms of what we drive down. So, the way you pay for2310services, the responsibility of the patients for cost sharing,2311those are the types of things where the government could take2312some action. So, for example, we have had a longstanding2313recommendation. You all have considered this in multiple2314Congresses, of making sure that Medicare and other payers are2315paying the same for services, whether they are delivered in the2316physician office or in the hospital outpatient department2317setting. The most recent CBO score of that, which they put2318out----2319    Mr. Burlison. Site neutrality is what you are saying?2320    Ms. Farb. Yes, budget neutrality, I mean, site neutrality,2321yes, so that the most recent score of that is $151 billion in2322savings over 10 years, and that has impacts on the entire2323healthcare system. So, it is not even just savings within2324Medicare. It will have an impact on other programs as well as2325the private sector healthcare system. So, there are lots of2326examples like that of paying differently for services.2327    Mr. Burlison. Can you provide those examples to me?2328    Ms. Farb. Yes.2329    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, we will do that.2330    There is also the adjustments that are made every year2331between fee-for-service and Medicare and Medicare Advantage.2332And the legislative commission set up by the Congress, I2333appoint the members to this MedPAC for Medicare, one for2334Medicaid. In the MedPAC area, they estimate that there is2335overpayments being made to the managed care portion of, like,2336$40 billion. And so, we have recommendations to make that a2337fair comparison, so we are not overpaying.2338    Mr. Burlison. Thank you. I yield back.2339    Chairman Comer. Thank you. The Chair recognizes Ms. Ansari2340from Arizona.2341    Ms. Ansari. Thank you. I am sorry. I thought since2342Representative Frost is back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.2343    Mr. Dodaro, you said today that ``there is a need for2344change, but how we do so matters.'' I could not agree with you2345more. We absolutely need to ensure that our government and its2346agencies and programs are running efficiently and free of waste2347so that we can deliver for the American people. We need to make2348sure seniors are getting their Social Security checks on time2349so they can pay their rent and have food on the table. But2350meanwhile, Elon Musk is spreading brazen lies that tens of2351millions of dead Americans are receiving checks, and he is2352going after our personal data. We need to make sure we are2353getting correct tax returns so that Americans depend and can2354respond in a timely manner, but President Trump just fired23556,700 IRS employees in the middle of tax season, as you know.2356And we need to ensure that Americans on Medicare continue using2357telehealth services, which is essential for rural communities2358and seniors, but the President is shutting that service down as2359well in April. They fired over a thousand VA employees that our2360veterans depend on for essential healthcare services and their2361hard-earned benefits. Not only that, but they enacted a hiring2362freeze for this Agency that already has a shortage of doctors2363and nurses, and I know you confirm this earlier today as well.2364    There has also been a lot of talk about polling from my2365colleagues from the other side of the aisle, so I would also2366like to cite recent polling on this issue. In two recent polls,2367when respondents were asked whether they approved or2368disapproved of the job that Elon Musk is doing within the2369Federal Government, there was a 34 percent approval compared to2370a 49 percent disapproval. That poll was carried between2371February 13 and the 18. It also found that 52 percent of2372Americans disapprove of Musk shutting down Federal programs2373that he deems unnecessary. And in another poll, only 28 percent2374believe that Musk's role in the government is a ``good thing.''2375So, Americans are fed up with the corruption. They know that2376none of what is happening is about addressing waste, fraud, and2377abuse, the new buzz word. It is about saving a buck to hand off2378to billionaires.2379    So, Mr. Dodaro, thank you again for being here. A few2380questions for you. Do you believe that firing 6,700 IRS2381employees reduces waste and makes tax filing more efficient?2382    Mr. Dodaro. No.2383    Ms. Ansari. Thank you. Does the High Risk List recommend2384the dismantling of USAID, the Department of Education, or the2385Consumer Financial Protection Bureau?2386    Mr. Dodaro. Do we recommend that? No, we have not2387recommended that.2388    Ms. Ansari. And did Elon Musk or DOGE consult with you and2389your team to decide who to fire and who gets to keep their2390jobs?2391    Mr. Dodaro. No.2392    Ms. Ansari. So, the independent, nonpartisan office--your2393office--dedicated to research how the Federal Government can2394increase efficiency, and I have heard a lot of praise from both2395sides, which is deserved, the GAO is not in any way, shape, or2396form consulted by the Trump Administration or Elon Musk before2397they made sweeping decisions to fire thousands of government2398employees, dismantle Agencies, or overstep Congress to do so.2399    Mr. Dodaro. The point of clarification I would make is2400since we are an independent, nonpartisan organization in a2401legislative branch, it is really not our role to be consulted2402on personnel decisions in the executive branch. We give advice2403on what kind of functions, the operations of the government,2404but we do not, you know, make recommendations about specific2405individuals and personnel decisions. That is left to them, but2406what we do look at is whether or not decisions like that were2407made in accordance with law and merit principles. And there is2408also the Merit Systems Protection Board, and the Office of2409Special Counsel, and the Fair Labor Relations Board. So, there2410are a number of entities within their independent agencies that2411are supposed to focus on the personnel process, whether people2412are treated fairly.2413    Ms. Ansari. Thank you. That clarification is helpful. It is2414overall extremely alarming to me that you were not consulted in2415such sweeping, rapid changes that have come about. Your2416recommendations, as you said, many of them have been around for2417years and still remain an issue that we very much should be2418tackling. But the corruption of DOGE and Elon Musk, and to a2419point that has already been said, you know, if they believe2420what they are doing is correct and they are tackling these2421issues for the American people, I welcome them to come here and2422speak to us as well. So, thank you again so much.2423    Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Mr. McGuire.2424    Mr. McGuire. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Mr.2425Dodaro, for your service, and I wish you the best in2426retirement.2427    You know our country is in big trouble, $36 trillion in2428debt. We should be sounding the alarms all over the place, on2429both sides of the aisle, if it was $1 trillion. If you spend2430more money per day in your household than you make per day, you2431would be out on the street. And if you were a business and you2432spend more than you bring in per day, you would be out of2433business. If the government was a business----2434    Chairman Comer. Please talk into the microphone there, so2435that it could be recorded.2436    Mr. McGuire. If the government was a business, it would be2437out of business. Again, I talk about $36 trillion as the2438biggest national security issue in our country.2439    I heard folks on the other side of the aisle talk about2440DEI. If you had a list of things you would do if you wanted to2441destroy our country, you would have open borders, you would2442have 103,000 people a year die from fentanyl overdose from this2443Chinese chemical warfare fentanyl being produced in China and2444coming across our border, you would have these foreign wars,2445you would spend more money than you make, things that did not2446happen during Trump's first Administration. I heard them talk2447about DEI. You know what DEI stands for? Didn't Earn It. Plus,2448it is illegal discrimination and it destroys efficiency. Equal2449opportunity is OK, but equal outcome is Marxist. Instead of2450focusing on waste, fraud, and abuse over the last 4 years, we2451were focused on these divisive, woke ideologies.2452    When you are doing business with foreign countries, they2453say, you know, when we work with America's competitors, they2454say we want to build a bridge. They talk about building a2455bridge. When America comes to their town, they want to talk2456about these woke ideologies. It is ridiculous. And I heard it2457said that Trump is not serious about being efficient. Well, we2458talk about the fentanyl that is killing all these American2459people dead--103,000 a year. Well, border crosses are now down2460in just a short period of time, 95 percent from 2,000 border2461crosses per day to about 200 border crossings today. I would2462say that is pretty efficient.2463    His recruitment is up in the military, the highest it has2464been in 11 years. I would say that is pretty efficient. I mean,2465if we do not have the young men and women willing to step up2466and volunteer and protect our Nation, we will not have a2467Nation. He is also got his appointees through the Senate just2468about faster than any President in history. I would say that is2469pretty darn efficient.2470    And when you are $36 trillion in debt, it is getting worse.2471I do not say we are at the cliff. We are over the cliff. And by2472the grace of God, President Trump and Elon Musk and everybody2473else wants to pull us back and save this country. I think every2474major nation in history that went under was because of2475bankruptcy. He got several hostages, American hostages,2476returned in record time. So, I would say President Trump2477definitely cares about efficiency. What shocks me is that the2478left is outraged at Elon Musk and all these people that are2479fighting so hard to discover waste, fraud, and abuse, and save2480our country, but they are not outraged at the people that2481committed the waste, fraud, and abuse, and that just shocks me.2482    I find it concerning that says 2,003 Federal agencies have2483reported about $2.8 trillion in estimated improper payments.2484The GAO issued a biennial report the start of each Congress to2485identify which programs are vulnerable to fraud, waste, and2486abuse, and mismanagement. So, Mr. Dodaro, are there any common2487themes or problems that you have noticed across the high-risk2488areas when compiling this list in recent years?2489    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, there are a number of areas we have been2490adding to the list involve multiple agencies to have to work2491together in order to address it, and one of them is on point to2492your point about fentanyl. We added drug misuse as a high-risk2493area because there needed to be a better national strategy that2494pulled together Federal departments and agencies, but also work2495at the state and local level, work with law enforcement, work2496with treatment facilities and others. And so, that is an area2497that that requires multiple AGs to work together, so that is2498one of the patterns that we have seen, you know, over time.2499    Mr. McGuire. Well, I would say the American people, We the2500People, are sick and tired of being ripped off, and in just 52501weeks, DOGE, Elon Musk and his genius team, and by the way, the2502guy is the richest man in the world. He does not need our2503money. And President Trump is the only President in recent2504history I have ever heard of that left office with less money.2505Every other President has left office with more money.2506    But we have got to make some good decisions. Our country is2507in really big trouble. We talk about FEMA. Hurricane Helene2508impacted my district as well, and I was just struck by how2509farmers and volunteers all across our commonwealth and all2510across our Nation jumped in to help people. What are some2511things that we can do? Like, I have heard it proposed that some2512of the FEMA duties can be returned to the Governors. What do2513you think we can do to handle these natural disasters more2514efficiently?2515    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. I think one thing would be to determine at2516what level, the state and local levels. They are already the2517first responders, and FEMA gives grants for them to be better2518prepared. But we have always said, well, how prepared are they?2519And they have never been able to tell us over time. I will let2520Chris Currie----2521    Mr. McGuire. My last question, real quick.2522    Mr. Dodaro. All right.2523    Mr. McGuire. What is the definition of ``insanity?''2524    Mr. Dodaro. Well, the common definition is used is keep2525repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting a2526different result.2527    Mr. McGuire. Yes. So, we have to move quickly. I do not2528know if you knew who Mr. Wonderful is? Kevin O'Leary, very2529successful businessman. He is on CNN. He is saying that DOGE2530should move faster than its moving. It should cut 20 percent2531more and then you rebuild from there because we are in drastic2532times. Desperate times require desperate measures. Thank you2533very much. I yield back.2534    Mr. Dodaro. We will provide answers on FEMA for the record.2535    Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mr. Frost.2536    Mr. Frost. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Dodaro, thank you so2537much for being here today. The GAO, Government Accountability2538Office, it is really thoughtful expert reports that help us2539save billions of dollars every year, and I thank you for that2540work and thank your staff for that work.2541    The GAO could not be more different than Trump and Elon2542Musk's DOGE. Trump and Musk want to rip away the vital services2543that millions of Americans depend on. He is doing it just to2544find money to give tax cuts to the richest people in this2545country and largest corporations in this country, many of whom2546pay a less effective tax rate than a lot of the teachers in my2547district. DOGE will save nothing for the American people, while2548making everything worse for us, while trying to find room to2549give tax cuts to the richest people in this country.2550    Shamefully, those cuts include cuts to our military2551veterans, including the nearly 32,000 veterans that I proudly2552represent, and I take this subject personally because I am the2553son of a veteran. I come from an Air Force family. How my2554family has been there for so long? They were in it when it was2555the Army Air Corps, and, so, I take this very personally. Mr.2556Dodaro, VA healthcare is on the GAO's High Risk List. How have2557staffing challenges at the VA contributed to this?2558    Mr. Dodaro. And I will ask Ms. Farb to come up. But they2559have contributed to it very significantly. Jess?2560    Ms. Farb. I would say, you know, we talked about this a2561little bit earlier, in terms of scheduling appointments for2562veterans, both in the VA facilities and in the community,2563providing treatments that are needed and timely care, which VA2564has had problems with in the past, as we all know. So, not2565having the staff that they need to kind of continue on the path2566to making sure that veterans get timely access to quality care.2567    Mr. Frost. So, that is capacity issue, not enough?2568    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Well, not a right type. I mean, we----2569    Mr. Frost. Yes.2570    Mr. Dodaro. I am very concerned about the mental health2571area, and they do not have enough behavioral mental health2572people, particularly for rural veterans.2573    Mr. Frost. A hundred percent.2574    Mr. Dodaro. And the suicide prevention area is another2575area. You know, last I checked, there were 17 veterans a day2576die by suicide.2577    Mr. Frost. Yes.2578    Mr. Dodaro. It is a national disgrace, in my opinion, that2579we are not better supporting these people, which is why I added2580it to the High Risk List, and so they need doctors, nurses.2581They need the proper care and also the proper handoff if they2582go to the community care process as well. So, it is an issue2583that we need to be very careful on how we handle and make sure2584it is done properly.2585    Mr. Frost. I 100 percent agree with you. I was actually2586about to ask you about the VA's need to hire more psychiatrists2587and psychologists, and I appreciate you bringing that up.2588    Mr. Dodaro. Right.2589    Mr. Frost. You know, last week, I held a veterans town hall2590in my district at my local VA. There were a few hundred people2591that showed up. Folks came very confused, very angry and very2592scared. They asked questions. I have some of them down. They2593asked, will I lose my benefits? Who staffs DOGE? And what are2594they doing with my personal medical information? Will budget2595cuts mean that I will have longer wait times? Why is my2596healthcare being sacrificed to politics? These are the2597questions people asked me, my constituents, veterans, asked me.2598    Among the 18 Inspectors General that Donald Trump illegally2599fired, which, by the way, Congress was supposed to be notified2600before an IG is fired like that. Maybe about 2 hours ago,2601Republicans in this Committee took a vote to silence me because2602I said Donald Trump was engaging in grifting, but complete2603crickets when he breaks the law and completely circumvents2604Congress and does not tell us about the firing of 18 Inspectors2605General. How will the firing of the Inspector General of the VA2606make it harder to address the issues that my constituents, the2607veterans in my district, raised?2608    Mr. Dodaro. I responded earlier that I thought it was2609unfortunate those IGs were fired. I think we lost a lot of2610institutional and expertise in that area. We have worked very2611closely with Mike Missal over the years and the other IGs. Now,2612they have a very talented group of people. They will soldier2613on, and they will continue to do the job, but it was2614unfortunate. And, you know, I had recommended to the Congress2615to make the change to require a 30-day notice and to give for-2616cause because the Inspector Generals do report to the Congress2617as well as to the head of the agency. It is a very unique2618responsibility and Congress should have the opportunity to2619engage in a dialog on that. I do not dispute the President's2620authority to fire them, but how it is done and follow the2621proper procedures, I believe, is important.2622    Mr. Frost. Thank you. The Orlando VA healthcare system2623already suffers from critical staffing shortages. I mean, the2624people there, who a large percentage of them are veterans2625themselves, are doing a great job. They are doing what they2626need to do, but they do not have the staff capacity necessary2627to be able to meet the demand, to be able to live up to our2628promise to people who put their lives on the line for the2629safety and security of this country, and that is something I2630take very seriously. It is something that a lot of my2631Republican colleagues used to take very seriously, but times2632change. Thank you so much and I yield back.2633    Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Mr. Gill from Texas.2634    Mr. Gill. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for2635holding this hearing today. I would like to start by addressing2636a few of the concerns that our colleagues have had on the other2637side of the aisle about the DOGE movement and Elon Musk in2638particular. And first, they are telling us that what DOGE and2639Elon Musk are doing by firing Federal workers, many of whom are2640not showing up to work to begin with, is somehow cruel. And I2641would like to say that perhaps what is actually cruel is2642bankrupting our country by funding a Federal workforce that is2643not working. What is cruel is driving up inflation by spending2644more money than our Federal Government has, harming working-2645class families across the country. What is cruel is2646consolidating power in an undemocratic administrative state2647that does not answer to anybody, apparently, if they had their2648way.2649    You know, no Federal worker has a right to work for the2650U.S. Government, but our children do have a birthright to2651inherit a country that is not bankrupt, and that is what House2652Republicans, and President Trump, and Elon Musk are trying to2653do by cutting out waste, fraud, and abuse from the Federal2654Government. What Elon Musk is doing is not cruelty. It is2655altruism, and it is the first time anybody has been able to2656actually rightsize our Federal budget, and we should be2657applauding him, regardless of which side of the aisle we sit2658on.2659    I would also like to address the idea that Elon Musk and2660President Trump are somehow corrupt in rightsizing the Federal2661Government. If you want to know where the real corruption is,2662let us look at which side of the aisle has been benefiting from2663this slush fund that we have been giving out with very little2664accountability. It tends to be left-wing pet projects, left-2665wing media, like NPR and PBS, who always routinely run cover2666for Democrats while attacking Republicans. It is left-wing2667advocacy groups and NGOs that are taking our tax dollars and2668promoting DEI programs, and transgender gender surgeries, and2669girl-powered climate action, whatever that means. These are all2670left-wing movements that are being funded by our tax dollars.2671And it raises the question of how successful would the leftist2672political movement be in America if it were not for the fact2673that their whole movement is subsidized by taxpayers? That is2674what corruption is. And we are finding out now recently that2675Stacey Abrams is part of part of the grift as well.2676    Apparently, the EPA gave $2 billion to a group called Power2677Forward Communities that was funded in late 2023 and had only2678reported $100 in total revenue. Power Forward Communities had2679no business managing a grant that large, of course, but they2680were appealing for Democrats. The co-chair of Power Forward2681Communities is Shaun Donovan, who previously served as Barack2682Obama's Director of HUD and OMB. And we also know that Stacey2683Abrams is Senior Counsel for one of the coalition groups called2684Renewing America, affiliated with this. That is corruption, and2685that is the waste that we are trying to root out here.2686    They talk a lot about Elon Musk and DOGE and having access2687to American data. Remember, Biden let 53 unpaid researchers and2688students have full access to the American people's data at the2689IRS, and there was no outrage then. We are learning now that2690the Biden IRS leaked taxpayer information. We were told last2691year that it was only for, I say only, for 70,000 Americans. We2692are finding out today it was actually 405,000 Americans. That2693is the kind of access to data that I am concerned about, and it2694is being leaked to a left-wing news outlet that is partially2695funded by George Soros. These are the questions we should be2696asking and we should be raising.2697    They like to talk, I think disingenuously and very2698hyperbolically, about President Trump being a dictator. As they2699know, Article II of the Constitution says that the executive2700power shall be vested in a President of the United States of2701America, not in a technocratic, undemocratic, unelected,2702administrative state that they have been propping up for so2703long. We are a republic, not a European style technocracy, and2704that is why our country is the global leader and Europe is not,2705but for decades, we have watched as this administrative state2706has metastasized and acts with incredible leftist fervor and2707has no accountability. What President Trump and Elon Musk are2708doing is returning our country back to its democratic roots,2709restoring constitutional order in this country, and that is why2710we should be supporting them. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.2711    Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields. The Chair now2712recognizes Mr. Min. Oh, OK, am I out of order? Who do I?2713    Mr. Min. Oh, no, that is fine. Mr. Dodaro, thank you for2714joining us. Thank you for your decade----2715    Chairman Comer. Hold on, Mr. Min. I am sorry. Mr. Connolly,2716who is next?2717    Mr. Connolly. I think Ms. Simon is next.2718    Chairman Comer. OK. Sorry about that.2719    Mr. Min. OK.2720    Ms. Simon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Ranking2721Member. I appreciate your testimony today, sir. And thank you,2722as an M.P.A. master student a few years ago, I spent an awful2723lot of time reading your reports and I really, really2724appreciate the level of professionalism that you have led, and2725thank you for your service.2726    You know, my colleague, Mr. Frost, and you talked a bit2727about veterans, sir, and I appreciate that. My mother served2728the Veteran Administration for over 35 years. You know, if you2729call (415) 221-4810 or in Phoenix to (602) 277-5511, or in2730Texas (713) 791-1441, we know now when veterans, mothers of2731veterans, partners of veterans, when they are calling--these2732are only three of many VAs in the country--folks are not going2733to answer the phone.2734    On February 14, this Administration fired over 1,000 VA2735workers--1,000 VA workers--so, you know, when you cut staff,2736you cut services. And when you cut services, these are more2737than just budget decisions. It is a betrayal of the American2738promise. Our servicemen and women deserve better. They fought2739in the line of fire with an understanding that when they came2740home, they would have efficacious health benefits, social2741services, mental health services. That was our promise, and it2742is not just in this Administration that we have broken our2743promise. I will say that we have not done what we should have2744in the past and currently in the present, but to annihilate2745critical staff supporting critical lives of folks who dedicated2746their lifespan to this country, it is a betrayal of a lexicon2747of America First that I am hearing every single day.2748    You know, sir, I do not have a question for you. Again, I2749am thanking you. But last week I visited an NIH-funded clinic,2750and I know we are not talking so much about NIH in your report,2751a Nobel Prize winning scientist and physician scientists on her2752team, and young American students have dedicated their2753professional careers to ending genetic diseases, like sickle2754cell. They are there. They have a cure. The trials have gone2755really, really well. They are looking at moving forward2756treatment for ALS and for folks who have suffered from ALS and2757have buried your uncles and your mothers, and your fathers, and2758your cousins, and your nieces, you know, the devastation of2759that disease.2760    For folks who are struggling, themselves, with dementia,2761you know, the devastation in the world when financially that2762your families have had to go through. This lab in Berkeley,2763California has the best and the brightest scientist, and they2764are facing because, again, of this effort to move efficiency, a2765$37 million cut that will all but halt the research and send2766those students home. That is not fear mongering. That is fact.2767    So, for all of the patients, those who are in the operating2768rooms, sitting outside, waiting for your folks to come out,2769those folks who are care workers, sitting at home trying to2770figure out how you are going to make ends meet because you2771cannot work because your father has devastating dementia, I2772want us to understand what is at play. I am not blaming anyone.2773What I am saying is, we are making bad decisions. Yes, we need2774a more efficacious government, but when you attack the sick,2775when you attack literally the scientists who are going to cure2776Americans, we are lying to the people here, those young people.2777I met one young man who has dedicated his life to curing2778cancer. He is in that lab. He does not know if he is going to2779be able to continue. America First looks something very2780different than what we are purporting here today about creating2781an efficacious government.2782    The last thing I will say, and I again, appreciate knowing2783a lot about your organization and while you do not provide2784direction necessarily to government departments when they have2785done staff reductions, what your Agency has done is guide2786directors to make those reductions using a process that is2787concurrent with evaluations, concurrent with making sure that2788there is deep communication, making sure that those employees2789have an exit plan that will not exacerbate homelessness in our2790communities. Thousands of workers have been laid off with no2791evaluation. We have not stayed true to our union contracts. We2792need to create a government that is efficacious and efficient,2793but this ain't it. Thank you so much. I yield my time.2794    Chairman Comer. The gentlelady yields back. The Chair2795recognizes Mr. Fallon from Texas.2796    Mr. Fallon. Mr. Chairman, thank you. You know, we sit here2797all day and we hear folks pontificating, and it is the same old2798broken record, and I fear that it is going to be like this for27992 years that, you know, you hear Elon Musk and you do hear fear2800mongering, and you do hear ``billionaires,'' ``unelected2801billionaires,'' ``unelected oligarchs,'' blah, blah, blah. The2802fact of the matter is that when I was serving in the Air Force,2803I saw many in the middle, many Federal workers that did a2804fabulous job. They were gold coins for this country.2805Unfortunately, I saw equal, probably slightly larger, number2806that were a complete waste of taxpayer money. It was just not2807operating efficiently, and they did not have the motivations.2808And that is why I think even the father of modern2809progressivism, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, feared, and was not a2810fan of, public sector unions.2811    I want to thank you, Comptroller General Dodaro, for your2812years of service, half a century, dare I say, started when you2813were 5, you had an illustrious career, very successful one, and2814a decade-and-a-half in your current position, and sincerely,2815thank you. Also, you have done significant work with operating2816inefficiencies in the Federal Government. I think that you2817could argue, in a sense, that you were DOGE before DOGE or DOGE2818was cool, or at least for half the people on this Committee,2819cool, what have you. But the concept is not new. Long before2820Donald Trump ever ran for public office, you were doing your2821work and looking to get a lot of bang for that taxpayer buck,2822but that is something that should be bipartisan. It does not2823seem to be, unfortunately, but, you know, I am an internal2824optimist and we can hope for a better day tomorrow.2825    Do you think, sir, that the Federal Government did, does,2826or will operate at maximum efficiency right now?2827    Mr. Dodaro. It does not.2828    Mr. Fallon. Listen, I had a small company of a hundred2829employees, private sector. I was making a buck. We did not2830operate at maximum efficiency. It would be wonderful if we2831could, but you cannot, and there is absolutely no way, Federal2832bureaucracy of millions of people. I mean, what are you2833finding? Was it about $40 billion a year that you have saved?2834    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.2835    Mr. Fallon. Because you are doing your work and maybe then,2836maybe, we could argue that oversight and accountability works2837looking for those efficiencies and quantifying that, and trying2838to organize it into an effort where we can increase the scale.2839It is a good thing for the country.2840    And I just went to Austin, Texas. I was in the Texas2841legislature for 8 years, in the House and the Senate, and2842visited with some of my colleagues and then some experts in the2843Inspector General's office in Texas, and they were telling us2844in their professional opinions and these folks have done it.2845One of them, Mr. Chairman, served for 25 years investigating2846primarily Medicaid fraud. And I asked, in your professional2847opinion, after a quarter century doing what you have done, of2848the $50 billion that Texas spends on entitlements, what2849majority of that is fraud, waste, and abuse, what percentage2850rather, and he said, at best, 10 percent, and at worst,2851probably just north of 20 percent.2852    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.2853    Mr. Fallon. So, just in Texas alone, we are talking about2854probably $7.5 billion of money that is spent by the taxpayers,2855but it is not getting to the people that need it. You have got2856folks that lie, you know, and sometimes the honor system stuff2857where they are making much more income than they admit to, or2858you have got the fraudsters and the organized criminals that2859steal.2860    Mr. Dodaro. Right.2861    Mr. Fallon. And they are very good at it. They are very2862sophisticated. And so, taking a look at it, we should not be2863scared of it. We should embrace it. We should run toward it and2864not run away from it. And not play political games or demonize2865the most successful, you know, human being in history in the2866private sector.2867    So, I wanted to ask you also, sir, some of these2868initiatives that you had with your High Risk List, well, I2869believe, need congressional action. What specific actions can2870we realistically take, you think, in the next year or two see a2871noticeable difference in improvement?2872    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. One is to make permanent the use of the2873death master file to have Social Security give it to the2874Treasury Department. That is only on a pilot basis. It has2875already saved millions of dollars. It needs to be made2876permanent. We should not be paying deceased people. It took me2877a number of years to convince Congress to even make that a2878pilot program. I never thought it would be so hard to stop2879paying dead people, but apparently it was.2880    Mr. Fallon. Are they all in Chicago?2881    Mr. Dodaro. I do not know.2882    Mr. Fallon. No.2883    Mr. Dodaro. I do not think so. I think they are more spread2884around.2885    Mr. Fallon. Yes.2886    Mr. Dodaro. But in any event, that is No. 1. No. 2 would be2887to extend the statute of limitations for fraud in the2888unemployment insurance program. It is about ready to expire at2889the 5-year mark. Congress should do as it did with Paycheck2890Protection Program and extend it for 5 more years to make it 102891years. There are hundreds of cases still being investigated2892that, I think, need to come to a conclusion.2893    Mr. Fallon. Was that for the Social Security?2894    Mr. Dodaro. Unemployment.2895    Mr. Fallon. Unemployment fraud.2896    Mr. Dodaro. Unemployment insurance fraud, extend the2897statute of limitations. Make site-neutral payments a reality2898for Medicare. If you go to a doctor who is affiliated with a2899hospital, Medicare pays you more than if you go to a doctor in2900a private practice. It costs more for co-pays for2901beneficiaries. CBO has already said in the next 10 years, it2902would save $153 billion. I got many other ones, that I could,2903you know, enumerate, but those are three biggies.2904    Mr. Fallon. Thank you very much. We would love to get with2905your office on getting an extensive list, and, again, thank you2906for your service. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.2907    Chairman Comer. The gentleman yields back. The Chair2908recognizes Mr. Min.2909    Mr. Min. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Dodaro, congratulations2910on your retirement, and thank you for your service. I2911appreciate your suggestions, and as a freshman, new to your2912particular suggestions, these high-risk projects, but2913appreciate the concept.2914    Like some of my colleagues, I want to first just briefly2915talk about DOGE, the Department of Government Efficiency, which2916is apparently not a department, but a temporary organization2917with all the authorities of a department or agency, but none of2918the legal requirements that would otherwise apply to a2919department or agency.2920    Now temporary organizations, you may know, under Federal2921statute are limited to specific project or study. President2922Trump's executive order creating DOGE made clear that DOGE's2923authority was specifically limited to ``data modernization.''2924But as has been widely reported, under the leadership of Elon2925Musk, DOGE has far exceeded those statutory and executive order2926limitations. DOGE employees have taken over the Federal Payment2927System. They have received access to sensitive personal data2928for any person who has ever received a check from the Federal2929Government. They have frozen Federal employees out of their2930computer systems. They have tried to terminate agencies and2931programs, like the Department of Education and USAID.2932    So, Mr. Dodaro, I assume you are familiar with the United2933States Constitution?2934    Mr. Dodaro. I am.2935    Mr. Min. And so many of my GOP colleagues today were2936talking about Article II of the Constitution. Apparently, that2937was in their talking points for today. But Article I, Section 12938states that all legislative powers are reserved to the Congress2939of the United States. Article I, Section 9gives us exclusive2940authority to appropriate money to Congress. Are you aware of2941any provision in the Constitution that allows the executive2942branch to unilaterally take away our legislative and2943appropriations authority?2944    Mr. Dodaro. I am not aware of that, no.2945    Mr. Min. That is right because it does not exist. Are you2946aware of any provision in the Constitution that allows a2947special government employee appointed by the President to2948unilaterally take away our legislative and appropriations2949authority?2950    Mr. Dodaro. I do not think Constitution addresses that.2951    Mr. Min. It makes clear it is our authority only. And so,2952what is happening right now with DOGE is unconstitutional,2953illegal, and I will make that clear because they are2954overturning laws that we passed, they are deleting agencies2955that we have funded and created, and they are doing so without2956consultation with Congress. So, I want to make that clear. Now,2957Elon Musk has claimed he wanted to eliminate $2 trillion in2958waste from the Federal Government. Do you believe that we are2959going to find $2 trillion in waste if we look through the2960budget?2961    Mr. Dodaro. Not on an annual basis.2962    Mr. Min. But I think he is talking annually, actually.2963    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, that is why I say that. But no, I do not2964think that that is possible.2965    Mr. Min. And are you aware of the size of the domestic2966discretionary budget, which is the focus of this hearing and2967basically every effort that DOGE is looking into?2968    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.2969    Mr. Min. What is that roughly?2970    Mr. Dodaro. Let us see. It is about a third of the----2971    Mr. Min. Nine hundred billion dollars sound about right?2972    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Yes. Yes.2973    Mr. Min. OK.2974    Mr. Dodaro. It is a little more than that, but yes.2975    Mr. Min. Nine hundred 17 billion, I believe, is the exact2976number from the point.2977    Mr. Dodaro. It may be a little higher than that.2978    Mr. Min. OK.2979    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.2980    Mr. Min. And that is less than $2 trillion, just so we are2981clear. So, we could cut everything from the domestic2982discretionary budget, every program, every Federal employee,2983and we are only a fraction of the way to $2 trillion, right?2984    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Well, I mean, Social Security is over2985trillion. Medicare is over a trillion.2986    Mr. Min. Yes.2987    Mr. Dodaro. Interest on the debt is over a trillion.2988    Mr. Min. Yes.2989    Mr. Dodaro. Medicaid is more than halfway there.2990    Mr. Min. Reclaiming my time. So, $2 trillion then.2991    Mr. Dodaro. Right.2992    Mr. Min. Yes. I think you are suggesting this, but I just2993want to get to the point.2994    Mr. Dodaro. Right.2995    Mr. Min. We are looking at $2 trillion, and we are only2996going to get there probably if we cut Medicaid, Social2997Security, Medicare. Is that about right?2998    Mr. Dodaro. You would have to get to the big programs. You2999cannot cut the big dollars if you do not go to where there is3000spending.3001    Mr. Min. That is right. And so, do you think there is $23002trillion in waste if we look in Medicaid, Medicare, and Social3003Security?3004    Mr. Dodaro. No.3005    Mr. Min. OK. Do you think there is $100 billion in waste?3006    Mr. Dodaro. Well----3007    Mr. Min. So, let me reclaim my time. Many of my House3008Republican colleagues have expressed their concerns about the3009$36 trillion debt. I am also concerned about that. Their3010proposed budget would cut $3 trillion, including for lifeline3011programs like Medicaid, SNAP, healthcare MET. You know, we are3012talking about food for hungry babies, healthcare for sick3013veterans, but it also adds over $4.5 trillion in tax cuts. So,3014my question to you is math. If you cut $3 trillion in spending,3015but also reduce revenues by $4.5 trillion, does that increase3016or reduce the national debt?3017    Mr. Dodaro. Well, according to that scenario, it would3018increase.3019    Mr. Min. And that is exactly right. Now I want to get one3020last little line of questioning because many of my constituents3021have told me they are concerned about the waste, fraud, abuse,3022and mismanagement associated with the idea that one person,3023Elon Musk, gets to decide so many aspects of the Federal budget3024these days. They are concerned not only that it is illegal and3025unconstitutional, but that so many of his decisions seem3026designed to go after the agencies that have tried to regulate3027his businesses, his competitors. So, my last question to you is3028if an auditor were coming to audit something for you, but they3029were a major investor in one of the companies that you were3030looking at, would you hire them to work on that project?3031    Mr. Dodaro. No.3032    Mr. Min. All right. Thank you very much.3033    Mr. Dodaro. We have been asked to, and we will be looking3034at the arrangements for those as it relates to ethics and3035conflict of interest.3036    Mr. Min. Well, thank you very much and I, again, appreciate3037your service.3038    Mr. Dodaro. Thank you.3039    Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes himself for 53040minutes. Mr. Dodaro, what are the worst programs for improper3041payments over the last year?3042    Mr. Dodaro. Over the last year, it is Medicare, Medicaid,3043the Earned Income Tax Credit, and Supplemental Nutrition3044Assistance Program, and then bringing up that would be3045unemployment insurance.3046    Chairman Comer. Medicare, Medicaid, and SNAP. The 2025 High3047Risk report, like the previous reports, continues to paint an3048alarming picture of the extent of improper payments, those3049issues facing Medicare and Medicaid. That I think we agree, and3050I know the American people agree, that we should not be giving3051payments to people or businesses improperly. So, last year,3052Medicare improperly paid roughly $51 billion in Medicaid,3053improperly paid about $50 billion. That is over a $100 billion.3054So, why do these programs continue to have such massive issues3055with improper payments year after year, because GAO's released3056report estimated between $233 billion and $521 billion, that is3057half a trillion, was lost annually due to fraud between 20183058and 2022. But Medicare and Medicaid, in particular, $1003059billion in the last year. Why does this happen?3060    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Well, I think you have a need for better3061provider screening. In other words, you know, letting providers3062in there and you have a need for better enrollment screening.3063This has been a consistent problem, particularly in the3064Medicaid area, yes, in that area. Now, during the pandemic, for30653 years, everybody who was eligible at the beginning was deemed3066eligible throughout to the end of the national emergency. So, I3067do not even think the recent numbers, as big as they are, are3068the full amount of improper payments. So, there needs to be3069more rigorous screening and more attention on managed care3070portion, and more auditing there of both of them.3071    Chairman Comer. So, during COVID, when the Federal3072Government lost its mind, and that spanned two Administrations,3073people were put on Medicaid without proper screening and things3074like that, supposed to be temporarily?3075    Mr. Dodaro. Right.3076    Chairman Comer. It is supposed to be a temporary safety net3077program, and what has happened is it has become an entitlement.3078And one of the things that we are proposing in the budget3079reconciliation bill is not cutting Medicare and Medicaid, like3080my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, it is trying to3081reform Medicare and Medicaid to where there are no improper3082payments. We recognize the fact that you have been writing3083about this for years. The problem is not getting any better.3084People got on Medicaid during COVID, supposed to be3085temporarily, but they are still on there.3086    Mr. Dodaro. Right.3087    Chairman Comer. They are still on there. They are not3088supposed to be in there. Hardworking taxpaying Americans have3089to pay for their health insurance, and there are people that3090are gaming the system getting on Medicare and Medicaid. That is3091who we are looking at in this budget reconciliation bill. That3092is what President Trump and DOGE are looking at. This is not3093something that we made up. This is not something that we pulled3094out of the air. You all have been writing about this for years,3095and we recognize there is a problem. But the fear, people say,3096well, why hasn't Congress done anything? This is why. The way3097they are acting.3098    People know that Social Security is being skimmed. People3099know that unemployment is being skimmed. People know in this3100chamber that Medicare and Medicaid is being skimmed, but they3101wait. They wait for one person, and it is always a Republican,3102to be bold enough to say we need to look at this and we need to3103stop these improper payments. We need to stop the waste, fraud,3104abuse, and mismanagement. And then the Democrats go, oh my God,3105they are going to cut, they are going to cut, the Republicans3106are going to cut, and then they get their constituents all3107fired up. They say, oh, Elon Musk is going to steal your Social3108Security check, and nothing gets done.3109    We are serious about it. The President has a mandate. We3110appreciate the work that you and your staff has done3111identifying the High Risk List. But one reason that people in3112both parties, for numerous Congresses, have refused to even3113look at Medicare and Medicaid fraud, is because they knew that3114somebody would try to score political points and spook the3115elderly people that need Medicare, the children that need3116Medicaid, the children that need SNAP. They will not face the3117reality that people have been added to the rolls that should3118not be on the rolls. There are people ineligible. There are3119providers in all 50 states that are abusing the system. And it3120is going to take someone bold, it is going to take a Congress3121with the backbone to do something about it.3122    And I will conclude by saying this. We do not want to cut3123benefits for children. We do not want to cut benefits for the3124elderly and the truly needy. We want to look at the system and3125get rid of the waste, fraud, and abuse. That is what DOGE is3126about. That is what President Trump campaigned on. And that is3127what I hope at least the Majority party in here is committed to3128get his back and try to do that because the American people are3129fed up. They have lost confidence in government.3130    And just as Ms. Greene said that an overwhelming majority3131of people approve of what the objectives of DOGE are, but it is3132going to be up to Congress to get it done. I think we are3133seeing tonight during this hearing, there are some people that3134are going to obstruct and kick and try to score political3135points, and there are some that are serious, they have rolled3136up their sleeves, and, hopefully, we will get something done.3137    So, thank you for your High Risk report, and hopefully,3138this Congress and this Administration will have the backbone to3139do something about this heist of the American taxpayer dollars.3140So, thank you. My time has expired.3141    I now recognize Ms. Pressley, I guess, or Ms. Crockett. Who3142is next? Ms. Pressley.3143    Ms. Pressley. Thank you. Thank you to the Comptroller3144General for being here today. I am grateful for your service,3145and you are a great reminder of the ways in which government3146does benefit people every day, but they are often unaware.3147Congress has a duty to ensure that government operates3148efficiently, effectively, and in the public interest. For any3149elected official, constituent services are our bread and3150butter.3151    I know long before I was an elected official, I worked as a3152constituent services advocate, a Social Security liaison,3153advocating for our most vulnerable. If your grandfather cannot3154get an appointment at the VA or if your mom is stuck on hold3155with the Social Security Administration for hours, you should3156be angry and we should be fixing it. But instead of fixing it,3157the Trump Administration has turned over the keys to an3158unelected billionaire, Elon Musk, through the so-called3159Department of Government Efficiency, or DOGE. Mr. Dodaro, can3160you define--just so we are operating with the same3161understanding and comprehension here--can you define government3162efficiency?3163    Mr. Dodaro. Well, efficiency is getting the best possible3164outcome with the least amount of resources.3165    Ms. Pressley. Right. It is not about slashing budgets for3166the sake of headlines while weakening the very services that3167keep people safe, fed, and housed. True efficiency is about3168making government work better for the people, protecting the3169rights, strengthening essential services, and ensuring tax3170dollars go to the public good, not private profits. By that3171standard, DOGE is not here to serve anyone other than Elon3172Musk. But let us take a step back. History is important. Mr.3173Dodaro, do you know how the term, ``DOGE,'' came about?3174    Mr. Dodaro. Not particularly.3175    Ms. Pressley. Well, it came from an internet meme featuring3176a Shiba Inu dog that went viral on Reddit, and that meme led to3177the creation of Dogecoin, a joke cryptocurrency, eventually3178caught the attention of none other than Elon Musk in 2019. More3179than 5 years ago, Elon Musk started tweeting about DOGE, making3180jokes and using the cryptocurrency for profit. He was not3181interested in government efficiency. He only cared about making3182money. That is why the actual creator of Dogecoin said that3183Elon ``was and always will be a grifter.''3184    Mr. Chair, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record3185this article titled, ``Dogecoin Co-Creator Calls Elon Musk a3186Grifter Who Had Trouble Running Basic Code.''3187    Chairman Comer. Without objection, so ordered.3188    Ms. Pressley. Talk about did not earn it. So, here we are3189in 2025, and Elon Musk is still using DOGE to make money. This3190time, instead of pumping up a joke currency for his own3191profits, he is using a meme-inspired agency to launch a hostile3192takeover of the Federal Government.3193    DOGE has recklessly fired FAA employees and attacked the3194Agency all while Musk's own aerospace business benefits from3195regulatory rollbacks, make it makes sense. DOGE dismantled the3196Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, a watchdog agency that3197returned $21 billion to victims of fraud when he heard it was3198planning to investigate his company. And just last week in a3199moment of stunning incompetence, the Administration frantically3200tried to un-fire hundreds of employees they had to let go the3201day before. Why? Because those employees were overseeing our3202nuclear stockpile. Those employees were managing the bird flu3203outbreak. Those employees were providing not-nice-to-have, but3204essential must-have services that all of our constituents rely3205on.3206    Mr. Dodaro, do firing workers and then trying to un-fire3207them sound like government efficiency to you?3208    Mr. Dodaro. It is not a best practice.3209    Ms. Pressley. Sure, it does not to me. What kind of3210efficiency makes people hungrier? What kind of efficiency makes3211people poorer? What kind of efficiency makes people less safe?3212If Trump and Musk truly wanted to make government better than3213they would turn to the actual efficiency experts at the3214Government Accountability Office, but this was never about3215efficiency. Just like the DOGE meme, the lives of hardworking3216families are a joke to them. I will not stand for it. I know my3217colleagues will not either, and we will continue to fight for a3218government rooted in real efficiency, one that works for3219everyone, not just for billionaires. I yield back.3220    Chairman Comer. The Chair now recognizes Ms. Tlaib.3221    Ms. Tlaib. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you so much. For me,3222it is really ridiculous that we are sitting here today3223listening actually to this incredibly thoughtful presentation3224and report from you about all the ways we can make government3225work better for our families, but tomorrow, my Republican3226colleagues are actually going to ignore all of that. They are3227going to ignore all of your thoughtful and very investigative,3228thorough report of looking how we can serve our communities3229better.3230    And so, it is alarming to me because I do not know if you3231know this, Mr. Dodaro, like, our phones have been off the hook3232of people just, increased anxiety, fear of what is going to3233happen, many parents who have special needs children who just3234cannot imagine Medicare and health services are being cut.3235Another person who has access to Affordable Care Act is saying,3236I cannot believe they are thinking about allowing that to3237increase. I think it averaged by $600.3238    I understand from your report, some of the biggest3239challenges in delivering for our families, for the people that3240we represent here, stems from staffing shortages, right? And3241skill gaps that make it very difficult to be effective in3242delivering disaster assistance. I believe your report said3243about responding to public health emergencies and keeping3244groceries safe to eat, food, safe to eat. Is that correct?3245    Mr. Dodaro. That is correct. Twenty of the 38 areas are on3246there, in part, because of skill gaps and shortages.3247    Ms. Tlaib. So, you are talking about we do not have enough3248people?3249    Mr. Dodaro. In some cases, that is true, but in most cases,3250it is having the right skills necessary to do it.3251    Ms. Tlaib. That is right.3252    Mr. Dodaro. It is both. It is both.3253    Ms. Tlaib. I mean, for me, a lot of my colleagues talk3254about, like, oh, Elon Musk is about making more money. I3255actually think he just likes experimenting, and he is3256experimenting with us, the American people. It is like a huge3257experiment and a game or something of that sort. I mean, 1 day3258they turn the lights off in one department, the next day they3259turn it back on. I mean, we are talking about, like, Head Start3260programs that did not even get access to the portal until, I3261think, this past week, and these are folks that are offering3262services already, right? They already rendered the services and3263they are trying to get reimbursed by us. So, do you think, I3264mean, this Elon Musk experiment of indiscriminately firing3265hundreds of thousands of Federal employees working on these key3266issues will make a positive impact in addressing some of these3267life and death challenges?3268    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. I think there is a need for more3269efficiency in government. I want to be clear about that, and I3270do think----3271    Ms. Tlaib. Yes, I agree. They should start with the3272Pentagon budget, but OK.3273    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Well, it is across the board in3274government. I think you can be more efficient, but you have to3275approach it in a more thoughtful, deliberative process.3276    Ms. Tlaib. But, Mr. Dodaro, do not you think they are3277hiding behind efficiency? They are saying it is efficiency, but3278it is irresponsibility. It is chaotic.3279    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, it is not my job to decide, though, as I3280told you, but I do not----3281    Ms. Tlaib. Mr. Dodaro, one day they say, OK, all these3282folks are fired. The next day they say, OK, you can come back.3283    Mr. Dodaro. Well, as I said, that is not a good practice.3284Well, the good part about it is they recognized it and they3285brought them back right away, but they----3286    Ms. Tlaib. Yes, but even when they try to turn the lights3287back on, it is flickering.3288    Mr. Dodaro. I think you need to take a more deliberate3289process. The one thing I have learned--I have been auditing the3290Federal bureaucracy for 50 years--that you need to find out3291what is the reason why things are the way they are before you3292change it. Usually, there is a good reason, but not often, but3293you need to know the answer to that question before you start3294making changes. Otherwise, you have unintended consequences.3295    Ms. Tlaib. I mean, do you know what they did today?3296    Mr. Dodaro. No, I have been here all day.3297    Ms. Tlaib. No, because I think it is important, but you3298know what they did today? They let go 28 veteran workers. So,3299John Dingell VA in Detroit, it is a veteran hospital. They let3300go 28 employees. I called, I said, what did they do? Like, I3301asked a simple question. I do not know if they are doing that.3302What did they do? Do you know what they did? Most of them were3303the people that worked in cleaning the surgical equipment. Do3304you know that we had an audit of the VA? You know about this,3305right?3306    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.3307    Ms. Tlaib. And people died.3308    Mr. Dodaro. We did the audit.3309    Ms. Tlaib. Mr. Dodaro?3310    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.3311    Ms. Tlaib. People die in the John Dingell VA Hospital3312because we did not have people cleaning the surgical equipment.3313Yes or no.3314    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.3315    Ms. Tlaib. So, they just let go all these people. So, you3316are telling me my veterans are going to go under a knife, and3317we do not know if somebody is cleaning the surgical equipment?3318    Mr. Dodaro. This was a particular problem with colonoscopy.3319    Ms. Tlaib. How is that efficiency? He is experimenting with3320the lives of our constituents and our residents. He should come3321here voluntarily--they will not allow us to subpoena him--and3322answer our questions. What are the reasons behind you letting3323go, again, essential services? That is not efficiency. It is3324irresponsible. It is almost negligent. It is chaos.3325    Mr. Dodaro, your service is welcomed because we believe we3326want to be effective in delivering for our families, we do, but3327this is not the way to do it. And I really do thank you for3328your service. I know it is a long way, and it must be so3329frustrating. God, watching this last few weeks must be just3330unbelievable for you. For us, hearing our residents in tears3331has been painful. So, thank you all. Thank you.3332    Mr. Dodaro. Thank you.3333    Chairman Comer. The Chair recognizes Ms. Crockett.3334    Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much. And Mr. Dodaro, I am going3335to pick up where my colleague left off by, No. 1, thanking you3336for your service. I mean, I do not really know if they would3337have been trying to push you out, too, because it seems like3338anybody that knows what their job is gets pushed out. So,3339congrats on your retirement, and I am hoping that you have3340sunnier days ahead.3341    But Ms. Talib just went through a series of things that she3342feels like this is other than efficiency, and I have a term for3343what I believe is going on. I think it is just downright cruel.3344I think that you have people that literally do not have a3345heart. They are telling us that, oh, no, no, we are going to3346run the Federal Government like a business. Well, let me talk3347to you about the people that are allegedly running this3348business because the Federal Government ain't a business. But3349let me clarify. If it was, I do not want to run like the3350President has run businesses.3351    The President, it is my understanding, has filed bankruptcy3352six times. We do not have that luxury in the United States of3353America. But even when we start to think about Elon Musk, right3354now, as it relates to Tesla, the sales are down. As it relates3355to X, he has never made a profit since he bought X. In fact,3356the value of X is 75 percent lower than it has ever been. So,3357if I am going to go look for somebody to run a business, I am3358going to look for someone who is going to run one successfully.3359And before people start screaming and yelling about, well, he3360is a billionaire, yes, when you know the right people and they3361will just give you money, then you can become a billionaire3362too, and maybe 1 day all of us will have that kind of access.3363But until then, I want to talk about the fact that3364congressional Republicans again, as has been stated, they do3365not care about government efficiency no more than they care3366about government services and programs that constituents rely3367on. And just like Elon is hiding from this Committee,3368Republicans are now hiding from their constituents.3369    Under the current Republican budget proposal, 166,0003370people in the Chairman's district could lose their Medicaid3371benefits, including more than 70,000 children. The same for the3372Chairwoman of the DOGE Subcommittee: under the current budget3373proposal, 120,000 people in her district could lose Medicaid3374benefits, including 75,000 children. This is what efficiency3375looks like to Republicans, selling out their own constituents3376to pass tax cuts for their billionaire donors and friends, and3377rather than taking GAO's recommendations and discussing how3378Congress can help make Federal employees and agencies more3379efficient, effective, and support it, they are firing3380probationary Federal employees, which, again, in my opinion,3381has led to planes actually falling out of the sky, but3382nevertheless, which is crazy because no one has been more3383unproductive than the Republicans on the Oversight Committee.3384    Nevertheless, Mr. Dodaro, of the 38 high-risk areas in3385GAO's 2025 report, more than half are due in part to staffing3386or skills gaps, which you have already discussed. In your3387written testimony to the Committee, you stated, ``When we have3388seen progress on high-risk issues, it is typically involved3389three essential elements: congressional action or oversight,3390commitment from top leaders at agencies, and active involvement3391by the Office of Management and Budget.'' In your opinion, has3392Congress done enough to ensure the mass indiscriminate purging3393of Federal workforce does not ``impede the government from cost3394effectively serving the public and achieving desired results?''3395Yes or no.3396    Mr. Dodaro. Well, I talked before about telling the truth,3397the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Sometimes it is not3398a yes or no. I think Congress should get more engaged and3399proactive in this area. I have always encouraged3400administrations in the past to consult Congress in making some3401changes. Many of these things deal with laws that Congress3402passed, and I think Congress needs to get more active.3403    Ms. Crockett. I agree. We need to do our constitutional3404duty, which is to conduct oversight. So again, I am inviting3405Elon or anybody else that is a member of DOGE to come through3406and we can have a conversation. In fact, I am not aware of any3407recommendations that really go beyond just cutting those3408services that people need. There has not been any talk about3409cutting any of Elon's contracts, though, not a one, not that I3410am aware of. Maybe you are aware of it, but you are aware that3411Elon has been getting money from the Federal Government for a3412number of years, correct?3413    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.3414    Ms. Crockett. OK. And it is my understanding that he has3415not made a recommendation to cut any of his money as we are3416trying to save money and save this country. At the end of the3417day, what I am going to say is that we had the National Highway3418Traffic Safety Administration open five investigations on Tesla3419for complaints of unexpected braking, loss of steering control,3420and crashes while cars were in self-driving mode. And Tesla3421tried to block at least two rulings from the National Labor3422Relations Board, punishing Elon for tweeting that factory3423workers would lose stock options if they joined a union. This3424is a problem. Can you at least tell me that you agree, that you3425understand what a conflict of interest is, and that Elon----3426    Mr. Dodaro. I am well aware of what a conflict of interest3427is, and we have been asked by the Congress to take a look at3428this situation, and we will.3429    Ms. Crockett. Well, I appreciate that, and with that, Mr.3430Chair, I will yield.3431    Chairman Comer. The gentlelady yields back. That concludes3432our questioners.3433    In closing, I want to thank our witness, Mr. Dodaro, for3434your testimony today. Thank you for your many years of service.3435I want to thank your staff once again for your input today as3436well.3437    With that, and without objection, all Members have 53438legislative days within which to submit materials and3439additional written questions for the witnesses, which will be3440forwarded to the witnesses.3441    Chairman Comer. If there is no further business, without3442objection, the Committee stands adjourned.3443    [Whereupon, at 5:44 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]34443445                                 [all]