Summary
held a hearing on Dec 11, 2025 at 10:00 AM in Rayburn House Office Building, Room 2167. 3 witnesses appeared.
Record
The meeting has its video, its transcript, witnesses and documents on the record.
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The proceedings, as the committee streamed them.
Transcript
The transcript runs to 3,229 lines and 180,245 characters, as the Government Publishing Office printed it.
1[House Hearing, 119 Congress]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34 CUTTING COSTS, ADDING VALUE: THE FUTURE5 OF FEDERAL PROPERTY6=======================================================================78 (119-31)910 HEARING1112 BEFORE THE1314 SUBCOMMITTEE ON15 ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, PUBLIC BUILDINGS, AND16 EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT1718 OF THE1920 COMMITTEE ON21 TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE22 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES2324 ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2526 FIRST SESSION2728 __________2930 DECEMBER 11, 20253132 __________3334 Printed for the use of the35 Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure3637[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]3839 Available online at: https://www.govinfo.gov/committee/house-40 transportation?path=/browsecommittee/chamber/house/committee/41 transportation4243� __________4445� U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE4663-336 PDF WASHINGTON : 202647=====================================================================�4849 COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE5051 Sam Graves, Missouri, Chairman52 Rick Larsen, Washington, Ranking Member5354Eleanor Holmes Norton, Eric A. ``Rick'' Crawford,55 District of Columbia Arkansas,56Jerrold Nadler, New York Vice Chairman57John Garamendi, California Daniel Webster, Florida58Henry C. ``Hank'' Johnson, Jr., Georgiaomas Massie, Kentucky59Andre Carson, Indiana Scott Perry, Pennsylvania60Dina Titus, Nevada Brian Babin, Texas61Jared Huffman, California David Rouzer, North Carolina62Julia Brownley, California Mike Bost, Illinois63Frederica S. Wilson, Florida Doug LaMalfa, California64Mark DeSaulnier, California Bruce Westerman, Arkansas65Salud O. Carbajal, California Brian J. Mast, Florida66Greg Stanton, Arizona Pete Stauber, Minnesota67Sharice Davids, Kansas Tim Burchett, Tennessee68Jesus G. ``Chuy'' Garcia, Illinois Dusty Johnson, South Dakota69Chris Pappas, New Hampshire Jefferson Van Drew, New Jersey70Seth Moulton, Massachusetts Troy E. Nehls, Texas71Marilyn Strickland, Washington Tracey Mann, Kansas72Patrick Ryan, New York Burgess Owens, Utah73Val T. Hoyle, Oregon Eric Burlison, Missouri74Emilia Strong Sykes, Ohio, Mike Collins, Georgia75 Vice Ranking Member Mike Ezell, Mississippi76Hillary J. Scholten, Michigan Kevin Kiley, California77Valerie P. Foushee, North Carolina Vince Fong, California78Christopher R. Deluzio, Pennsylvania Tony Wied, Wisconsin79Robert Garcia, California Tom Barrett, Michigan80Nellie Pou, New Jersey Nicholas J. Begich III, Alaska81Kristen McDonald Rivet, Michigan Robert P. Bresnahan, Jr.,82Laura Friedman, California Pennsylvania83Laura Gillen, New York Jeff Hurd, Colorado84Shomari Figures, Alabama Jefferson Shreve, Indiana85Maxwell Frost, Florida Addison P. McDowell, North86 Carolina87 David J. Taylor, Ohio88 Brad Knott, North Carolina89 Kimberlyn King-Hinds,90 Northern Mariana Islands91 Mike Kennedy, Utah92 Robert F. Onder, Jr., Missouri93 Jimmy Patronis, Florida94 ------ 79596 Subcommittee on Economic Development, Public Buildings, and97 Emergency Management9899 Scott Perry, Pennsylvania,100 Chairman101 Greg Stanton, Arizona, Ranking102 Member103Eleanor Holmes Norton, Mike Ezell, Mississippi104 District of Columbia Kevin Kiley, California105Kristen McDonald Rivet, Michigan Tom Barrett, Michigan106Shomari Figures, Alabama Robert P. Bresnahan, Jr.,107John Garamendi, California Pennsylvania108Dina Titus, Nevada Kimberlyn King-Hinds,109Laura Friedman, California, Northern Mariana Islands110 Vice Ranking Member Mike Kennedy, Utah111Rick Larsen, Washington (Ex Officio) Robert F. Onder, Jr., Missouri,112 Vice Chairman113 Sam Graves, Missouri (Ex Officio)114115 CONTENTS116117 Page118119Summary of Subject Matter........................................ v120121 STATEMENTS OF MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE122123Hon. Scott Perry, a Representative in Congress from the124 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and Chairman, Subcommittee on125 Economic Development, Public Buildings, and Emergency126 Management, opening statement.................................. 1127 Prepared statement........................................... 2128Hon. Greg Stanton, a Representative in Congress from the State of129 Arizona, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Economic130 Development, Public Buildings, and Emergency Management,131 opening statement.............................................. 3132 Prepared statement........................................... 5133Hon. Rick Larsen, a Representative in Congress from the State of134 Washington, and Ranking Member, Committee on Transportation and135 Infrastructure, opening statement.............................. 6136 Prepared statement........................................... 7137138 WITNESSES139140Andrew Heller, Acting Commissioner, Public Buildings Service,141 U.S. General Services Administration, oral statement........... 9142 Prepared statement........................................... 11143Heather Krause, Managing Director, Physical Infrastructure, U.S.144 Government Accountability Office, oral statement............... 14145 Prepared statement........................................... 15146Hon. Michael E. Capuano, Board Member, Public Buildings Reform147 Board, oral statement.......................................... 21148 Prepared statement........................................... 23149150 SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD151152Minority Staff Report of the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on153 Investigations entitled, ``The $21.7 Billion Blunder: Analyzing154 the Waste Generated by DOGE,'' July 31, 2025, Submitted for the155 Record by Hon. Greg Stanton.................................... 6156157 APPENDIX158159Questions to Andrew Heller, Acting Commissioner, Public Buildings160 Service, U.S. General Services Administration, from Hon. Rick161 Larsen......................................................... 41162163[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]164165 December 5, 2025166167 SUMMARY OF SUBJECT MATTER168169 TO: LMembers, Subcommittee on Economic Development,170Public Buildings, and Emergency Management171 FROM: LStaff, Subcommittee on Economic Development, Public172Buildings, and Emergency Management173 RE: LSubcommittee Hearing on ``Cutting Costs, Adding174Value: The Future of Federal Property''175_______________________________________________________________________176177 I. PURPOSE178179 The Subcommittee on Economic Development, Public Buildings,180and Emergency Management of the Committee on Transportation and181Infrastructure will hold a hearing on Thursday, December 11,1822025 at 10:00 a.m. E.T. in 2167 of the Rayburn House Office183Building entitled, ``Cutting Costs, Adding Value: The Future of184Federal Property.'' The purpose of this hearing is to continue185the Subcommittee's focus on the need to consolidate Federal186agencies and sell unneeded space. The hearing builds on the187March 2025 hearing about implementing the public buildings188reforms passed last Congress. Witnesses will include the189General Services Administration (GSA), the Government190Accountability Office (GAO), and the Public Buildings Reform191Board (PBRB).192193 II. BACKGROUND194195FEDERAL REAL ESTATE PORTFOLIO196197 GSA currently manages more than 8,300 owned and leased198assets, totaling over 365 million square feet, and 500 historic199buildings.\1\ The GAO reports that operating, maintaining, and200leasing office space costs more than $8 billion annually.\2\201The GSA has made efforts to reduce the amount of leased space,202but the portfolio remains underutilized. With more than half of203the GSA's operating leases (96 million square feet) expiring in204the next five years, the GSA must pivot to an efficient, cost-205effective and modern portfolio.\3\ While reviewing 24206headquarters buildings in 2023, GAO found that 17 of the207agencies under review were utilizing 25 percent or less of208their capacity.\4\ That same year, anonymized cell phone data209showed an average building occupancy of 12 percent from January210to September due to the sustained prevalence of remote and211hybrid work models among the Federal workforce.\5\212---------------------------------------------------------------------------213 \1\ Gen. Services Admin., GSA Accelerates Efforts to Right-size214Federal Real Estate with Plans for 1.5 Million Square Feet in215Reductions and More than $475 Million in Cost Avoidance to Taxpayers216(Dec. 4, 2024), available at https://www.gsa.gov/about-us/newsroom/217news-releases/gsa-accelerates-efforts-to-rightsize-federal-real-estate-21812042024.219 \2\ U.S. Gov't Accountability Off., GAO-24-106919, Federal Real220Property: Actions Needed To Better Assess Office Sharing Pilot's221Broader Applicability (2024), available at https://www.gao.gov/222products/gao-24-106919.223 \3\ Gen. Services Admin., Inventory Of GSA Owned and Leased224Properties (Sept. 9, 2022), available at https://www.gsa.gov/tools-225overview/buildings-and-real-estate-tools/inventory-of-gsa-owned-and-226leased-properties.227 \4\ U.S. Gov't Accountability Off., GAO-23-107060, Federal Real228Property: Preliminary Results Show That Increased Telework and229Longstanding Challenges Led to Underutilized Federal Buildings (2023),230available at https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-23-107060.231 \5\ PBRB, Public Buildings Reform Board Final Interim Report to232Congress (Mar. 21, 2024), available at https://www.pbrb.gov/files/2024/23303/3.21.24-FINAL-PBRB-Interim-Report.pdf.234---------------------------------------------------------------------------235 There have also been increasing reports of ``shadow'' or236``dark'' space in Federal buildings and leases--unassigned,237unused space.\6\ On January 20, 2025, the White House directed238all departments and agencies of the Executive Branch to239terminate remote work arrangements and require employees to240return to work in-person at their respective duty stations.\7\241Given these factors, the GSA has a unique opportunity to242significantly reduce space and dispose of underutilized and243unused Federal real estate.244---------------------------------------------------------------------------245 \6\ Gen. Services Admin., Unused & Underused Space (Jan. 25, 2023),246available at https://www.gsa.gov/real-estate/gsa-properties/unused-247underused-space.248 \7\ The White House, Return to In-Person Work (Jan. 20, 2025)249available at https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/250return-to-in-person-work/.251---------------------------------------------------------------------------252253FEDERAL BUILDINGS FUND254255 In 1972, Congress authorized and established the Federal256Buildings Fund (FBF) under the Public Buildings Act Amendments257of 1972 (P.L. 92-313).\8\ The GSA funds new construction,258alterations and repairs, building maintenance, and lease259payments, as well as the Public Buildings Service (PBS),260through commercially equivalent rental payments by the GSA's261tenant agencies into the FBF.\9\ While the FBF is funded262through agency rents paid to the GSA, it is not a true263revolving loan fund.\10\ The funds are made available via264annual appropriations bills and projects exceeding $3.961265million must be authorized by the Committee on Transportation266and Infrastructure in the House and the Committee on267Environment and Public Works in the Senate.\11\ The GSA has not268had full access to the FBF since 2011, when appropriators began269using the FBF to offset other unrelated costs in the Financial270Services and General Government appropriations bill.\12\ The271FBF accrued $11.9 billion in revenue in 2021, 59 percent of272which was generated by five customer agencies: the Department273of Justice, the Department of Homeland Security, the Federal274Judiciary, the Social Security Administration, and the275Department of the Treasury.\13\276---------------------------------------------------------------------------277 \8\ Pub. L. No. 92-313, 86 Stat. 216.278 \9\ Gen. Services Admin., Federal Buildings Fund (Feb. 1, 2021),279available at https://www.gsa.gov/reference/reports/budget-performance/280annual-reports/2020-agency-financial-report/managements-discussion-and-281analysis/financial-statements-summary-and-analysis/federal-buildings-282fund.283 \10\ See 40 U.S.C. Sec. 592(c)(1).284 \11\ Id.; 40 U.S.C. Sec. 3307.285 \12\ Gen. Services Admin., Fiscal Year 2024 Congressional286Justification, Federal Buildings Fund (2024), available at https://287www.gsa.gov/reference/reports/budget-and-performance/annual-budget-288requests/previous-congressional-justifications/fy2024-congressional-289justifications.290 \13\ Gen. Services Admin., 2021 Agency Financial Report (2021),291available at https://www.gsa.gov/system/files/GSA_AFR_FY21.pdf.292---------------------------------------------------------------------------293294DEFERRED MAINTENANCE BACKLOG295296 The GSA reported a $6.1 billion deferred maintenance and297repair backlog in fiscal year (FY) 2024, restoration projects298that are on the GSA's docket but have yet to be addressed. This299backlog grew from $1.39 billion in FY 2017.\14\ While300officially $6.1 billion, civilian agencies collectively301reported a deferred maintenance liability of $80 billion in FY3022022.\15\ This number could be significantly greater now. Most303recent budget documents do not communicate the amount of time304or finance required to address the ballooning bottleneck.\16\305The GAO, in its most recent Priority Open Recommendations306publication to the GSA, recommends the inclusion of an action307plan in the GSA's budget materials. As of February 2025, GSA308continues to develop a model to project the GSA's portfolio 10309years into the future, with anticipated completion in March3102026.\17\311---------------------------------------------------------------------------312 \14\ U.S. Gov't Accountability Off., GAO-25-108060, Priority Open313Recommendations: General Services Administration (May 16, 2025)314[hereinafter GAO-25-108060] available at https://www.gao.gov/products/315gao-25-108060.316 \15\ Library of Congress, Deferred Maintenance and Repair at317Civilian Agencies: Causes, Risks, and Policy Options (2024) available318at https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/R48211.319 \16\ GAO-25-108060 supra note 14.320 \17\ Id.321---------------------------------------------------------------------------322323``THIRD ROUND'' OF THE PUBLIC BUILDINGS REFORM BOARD324325 The Public Buildings Reform Board (PBRB) was established in3262016 as an independent Board, charged with identifying327opportunities for the government to reduce significantly its328inventory of civilian real property and reduce government329costs.\18\ The PBRB submits recommendations for the disposal of330underutilized Federal properties in ``rounds'' to OMB. With331OMB's approval, the agency with jurisdiction over that property332(GSA, in most cases) is responsible for selling the selected333property. Slated to sunset in May 2025, the Thomas R. Carper334Water Resources Development Act of 2024 (WRDA 2024) extended335its term for a ``third round,'' after the Second Round produced336projected savings of $5.4 billion in cost-avoidance over a 30-337year period.\19\ The PBRB intends to release its ``Third338Round'' recommendations before the board sunsets in December3392026.\20\340---------------------------------------------------------------------------341 \18\ Federal Register, Public Buildings Reform Board, available at342https://www.federalregister.gov/agencies/public-buildings-reform-board.343 \19\ Public Buildings Reform Board, Public Hearing (July 30, 2025),344available at https://www.pbrb.gov/files/2025/08/Public-Hearing-Boston-345July-2025-Final-PDF.pdf.346 \20\ Id.347---------------------------------------------------------------------------348349FEDERAL REAL PROPERTY PROFILE DATABASE350351 The Federal Real Property Profile Management System (FRPP352MS) is the GSA's system which contains the Federal Government's353inventory of real estate under the custody of executive354agencies. FASTA mandated the accessibility of this data to the355public.\21\ In February 2020, 67 percent of addresses in the356public database were incomplete or incorrectly formatted. This357was followed with program guidance to help improve data358quality, provided by the Federal Real Property Council in359August 2024. The GSA has since implemented a tool to alert360agencies of potentially incorrect entries. However, the GAO361discovered in February 2025 that current location data still362contains errors. This coincides with an Executive Order (EO)363released in the same month, requiring agency heads to confirm364to the GSA that updates were submitted by March 5, 2025.\22\365---------------------------------------------------------------------------366 \21\ Gen. Serv. Admin., Federal Real Property Public Data Set367(2024), available at https://www.gsa.gov/policy-regulations/policy/368real-property-policy-division-overview/asset-management/federal-real-369property-profile-frpp/federal-real-property-public-data-set.370 \22\ GAO-25-108060 supra note 14.371---------------------------------------------------------------------------372373OTHER KEY ISSUES374375 LThe GSA is in the process of reorganizing the376Public Buildings Service via a new ``function and377geographically focused'' approach to update the management378process.\23\379---------------------------------------------------------------------------380 \23\ Statement of Andrew Heller, (Acting) Public Buildings381Commissioner, Gen. Serv. Admin., at GSA Bi-Weekly Meeting (Sept. 29,3822025) (virtual meeting).383---------------------------------------------------------------------------384 LThe Department of Housing and Urban Development385(HUD) is in the process of moving to the current National386Science Foundation's (NSF) headquarters, with NSF's future387residence still pending. This will allow for the disposal of388the current Robert C. Weaver Federal Building headquarters.\24\389---------------------------------------------------------------------------390 \24\ Drew Friedman, `This is Going to be HUD Town:' Trump391Administration to Push NSF Out Of Virginia Headquarters, Fed. News392Network (June 25, 2025), available at https://federalnewsnetwork.com/393facilities-construction/2025/06/this-is-going-to-be-hud-town-trump-394administration-to-push-nsf-out-of-virginia-headquarters/.395---------------------------------------------------------------------------396 LThe Committee is now in receipt of the GSA's397prospectus to move the FBI headquarters from the J. Edgar398Hoover Building to the Ronald Reagan Building.\25\ Questions399regarding renovations, costs, and the timeline of such a move400remain.401---------------------------------------------------------------------------402 \25\ E-mail from Rachel Baker, Policy Advisor, Gen. Serv. Admin. to403H. Comm. on Transp. & Infrastructure (Sept 19, 2025, 1:35 EST) (on file404with Comm.).405---------------------------------------------------------------------------406 LThe GSA is currently working to develop a plan to407dispose of the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA)408Ag South Building headquarters as proposed by the PBRB.409Challenges with shared infrastructure between the Ag South410Building and the adjacent Whitten Building will need to be411addressed.\26\412---------------------------------------------------------------------------413 \26\ Statement of Christian Hazen, Deputy Regional Commissioner,414Pub. Buildings Serv., GSA Bi-Weekly Meeting (Sept. 29, 2025) (virtual415meeting).416---------------------------------------------------------------------------417 LFollowing discussions in our previous hearing,418the GSA is in discussions with the Department of Energy (DOE)419on moving out of the current DOE headquarters, the James V.420Forrestal Building, as has been a proposal by the PBRB and421Members of the House Committee on Transportation and422Infrastructure for several years.\27\ This aligns with the423National Capital Planning Commission's broader SW Ecodistrict424Plan and proposals by the District of Columbia.\28\425---------------------------------------------------------------------------426 \27\ America Builds: Making Federal Real Estate Work for the427Taxpayer, 119th Cong. (Mar. 5, 2025) (statement of David Winstead,428Board Member, Pub. Buildings Reform Board).429 \28\ Nat'l Capital Planning Comm., SW Ecodistrict, available at430https://www.ncpc.gov/plans/swecodistrict/.431---------------------------------------------------------------------------432433 III. PRIOR COMMITTEE ACTIONS434435FEDERAL ASSETS SALE AND TRANSFER ACT (FASTA) AND THE FASTA REFORM ACT436 OF 2023437438 In 2016, FASTA was enacted, which established a temporary439board, the Public Buildings Reform Board (PBRB), which is440composed of non-governmental experts who make recommendations441to OMB on the sale, disposal, or redevelopment of high value,442underused or unneeded Federal real property.\29\ The OMB then443approves or disapproves the packages of proposals and, if444approved, the GSA would execute the recommendations, allowing445agencies to retain a portion of the proceeds.\30\ Under FASTA,446agencies would be able to retain a portion of the sale proceeds447from such transactions as an incentive to dispose of excess448properties, but they would not be able to access those funds449until after the termination of the Board.\31\ FASTA also450codified the Federal Real Property Profile (FRPP) government-451wide database of real property and made it available to the452public.\32\453---------------------------------------------------------------------------454 \29\ Federal Assets Sale and Transfer Act of 2016 (FASTA), Pub. L.455No. 114-287, 130 Stat. 1463.456 \30\ Id.457 \31\ Id.458 \32\ Id. at Sec. 21.459---------------------------------------------------------------------------460 In 2024, Congress passed the FASTA Reform Act of 2023,461which extended the authorization and enhanced the authority of462the PBRB and required the board to report annually to Congress463on Federal properties it recommends for disposal.\33\ The FASTA464Reform Act enables agencies to access these incentive funds465more quickly, fostering better collaboration and increasing the466efficiency of the Federal property management system for467taxpayers.\34\468---------------------------------------------------------------------------469 \33\ FASTA Reform Act of 2023, Pub. L. No. 118-272.470 \34\ Id.471---------------------------------------------------------------------------472473PUBLIC BUILDINGS REFORMS IN THE WATER RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT ACT OF 2024474475 Last Congress, Title III of the WRDA 2024 introduced new476authorities to improve the management of Federal real477estate.\35\ In addition to the FASTA Reform Act, other reforms478were enacted to ensure that the Federal real estate portfolio479is better aligned with current operational needs.480---------------------------------------------------------------------------481 \35\ WRDA, Pub. L. No. 118-272.482---------------------------------------------------------------------------483 WRDA 2024, among other reforms, included the Utilizing484Space Efficiency and Improving Technologies (USE IT) Act of4852023 which mandated GSA and OMB establish standardized methods486for measuring office occupancy across Federal agencies.\36\ The487Act introduced a government-wide 60 percent occupancy metric,488directing Federal agencies to consolidate, repurpose, or sell489underused office space to increase operational efficiency and490reduce real estate costs.\37\ This initiative aims to maximize491space utilization, particularly in light of the ongoing shift492to hybrid and remote work models.\38\ The USE IT Act also493specifically directs that department and agency headquarters494buildings in the National Capital Region be consolidated and495excess space sold to meet the minimum 60 percent occupancy496metric.\39\497---------------------------------------------------------------------------498 \36\ Utilizing Space Efficiency and Improving Technologies (USE IT)499Act of 2023, Pub. L. No. 118-272.500 \37\ Id.501 \38\ PBRB, Public Buildings Reform Board Final Interim Report to502Congress (Mar. 21, 2024), available at https://www.pbrb.gov/files/2024/50303/3.21.24-FINAL-PBRB-Interim-Report.pdf.504 \39\ USE IT Act of 2023, supra note 40.505---------------------------------------------------------------------------506 In addition, the reforms included the Federal Use It or507Lose It Leases (FULL) Act which requires the GSA and tenant508agencies to annually report their office space utilization509rates to Congress.\40\ Under the FULL Act, if an agency's510utilization rate falls below the 60 percent threshold for six511months out of a year, the tenant agency would be required to512return that underused space to GSA.\41\ This provision creates513an incentive for agencies to actively manage their real estate514holdings and reduce the financial burden of maintaining vacant515or underutilized property.516---------------------------------------------------------------------------517 \40\ Federal Use It or Lose It Leases Act, Pub. L. No. 118-272.518 \41\ Id.519---------------------------------------------------------------------------520 Key actions mandated by these reforms include establishing521standard methodologies and identifying technologies for522measuring space occupancy in leased and owned facilities, and523deployment of such methodologies and technologies within 180524days of enactment of WRDA. Within one year of enactment, by525January 4, 2026:526 LHeads of agencies are required to submit to the527OMB, the GSA, and Congress occupancy and actual utilization in528their owned and leased buildings, methodology used for529determining occupancy, and costs associated with capacity530exceeding actual occupancy;531 LThe OMB, in consultation with the GSA, must532ensure actual building utilization in each owned and leased533building is not less than 60 percent on average and, if any534agency fails to meet or correct a lower usage percentage, the535bill requires the GSA to take steps to consolidate or sell536unused space;537 LThe OMB, in consultation with the GSA, must538submit a plan to Congress to consolidate department and agency539headquarters building in the National Capital Region that will540result in building utilization rates of 60 percent or better;541 LThe GSA must include in its occupancy agreements542with its tenant agencies a requirement for the tenant agencies543to provide the GSA with the needed utilization data; and544 LHeads of agencies with their own real estate545authorities, independent of the GSA, must also report to546Congress utilization rates.\42\547---------------------------------------------------------------------------548 \42\ WRDA, Pub. L. No. 118-272.549550 On April 21, 2025, the OMB issued a memorandum for the551heads of Executive departments and agencies on the552implementation of the USE It Act providing guidance on553technologies for measuring space usage and information on554reporting required data.\43\ While the GSA is the lead agency,555along with the OMB in implementing many of the reforms, it is556unclear how agencies with independent real estate authorities557are being monitored. There are over 40 departments and agencies558with some sort of independent leasing authority outside of559GSA's authority.\44\560---------------------------------------------------------------------------561 \43\ Off. of Management and Budget, Memorandum for the Heads of562Executive Departments and Agencies (Apr. 21, 2025), available at563https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/M-25-25-564Implementation-of-the-Utilizing-Space-Efficiently-and-Improving-565Technologies-Act.pdf.566 \44\ Technical Assistance on Identified Independent Leasing567Authority of Certain Civilian Federal Entities, GAO (Aug. 5, 2025) (on568file with Comm.).569---------------------------------------------------------------------------570571SPACE ACT OF 2025572573 The Shared Property Agency Collaboration and Engagement Act574of 2025 or the SPACE Act of 2025, sponsored by Rep. Robert F.575Onder, would expand section 2303 of WRDA and direct the GSA to576collaborate with tenants on shared-space arrangements. This577bill passed the House on September 8, 2025, and was referred to578the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works for579further consideration.\45\580---------------------------------------------------------------------------581 \45\ H.R. 3424, SPACE Act of 2025, 119th Cong. (2025), available at582https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/3424/583text?s=2&r=1.584---------------------------------------------------------------------------585586CASE ACT OF 2025587588 The Courthouse Affordability and Space Efficiency Act of5892025 or the CASE Act of 2025, sponsored by Rep. Jefferson590Shreve, mandates the optimization of courthouse space usage and591informs future courthouse construction through a policy of592courtroom sharing. This bill passed the House on September 15,5932025 and was referred to the Senate Committee on Environment594and Public Works for further consideration.\46\595---------------------------------------------------------------------------596 \46\ H.R. 3426, Courthouse Affordability and Space Efficiency597(CASE) Act of 2025, 119th Cong. (2025), available at https://598www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/3426/text?s=4&r=1.599---------------------------------------------------------------------------600601 IV. SUMMARY602603 This hearing will follow the Subcommittee's hearing from604March 5, 2025, ``America Builds: Making Federal Real Estate605Work for the Taxpayer,'' which examined strategies to transform606Federal real estate by consolidating, relocating, and selling607unused and underutilized spaces. The hearing builds on the608previous hearing, in addition to discussing related interests609in the deferred maintenance backlog, the Public Building Reform610Board's ``third round'', and updates on actions taken since611March on real property reform.612613 V. WITNESSES614615 LAndrew Heller, (Acting) Public Buildings Service616Commissioner, General Services Administration617 LHeather Krause, Managing Director, Physical618Infrastructure, Government Accountability Office619 LThe Honorable Michael E. Capuano, Member, Public620Buildings Reform Board621622 CUTTING COSTS, ADDING VALUE: THE FUTURE OF FEDERAL PROPERTY623624 ----------625626 THURSDAY, DECEMBER 11, 2025627628 House of Representatives,629 Subcommittee on Economic Development, Public630 Buildings, and Emergency Management,631 Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure,632 Washington, DC.633 The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:03 a.m., in634Room 2167, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Scott Perry635(Chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.636 Mr. Perry. The Subcommittee on Economic Development, Public637Buildings, and Emergency Management will come to order.638 The Chair asks unanimous consent that the Chair be639authorized to declare a recess at any time during today's640hearing. Without objection, so ordered.641 The Chair also asks unanimous consent that Members not on642the subcommittee be permitted to sit with the subcommittee at643today's hearing and ask questions. Without objection, so644ordered.645 As a reminder, if Members wish to insert a document into646the record, please also email it to DocumentsTI@mail.house.gov.647 The Chair now recognizes himself for the purposes of an648opening statement for 5 minutes.649650 OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. SCOTT PERRY OF PENNSYLVANIA,651 CHAIRMAN, SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, PUBLIC652 BUILDINGS, AND EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT653654 Mr. Perry. I want to thank our witnesses for being here655today as we examine the Federal real estate portfolio.656 Earlier this year, the subcommittee held a hearing to657discuss how we could make Federal real estate work for the658American taxpayer. Legislation that Congress has enacted, like659the USE IT Act and the Federal Asset Sale and Transfer Act, or660the FASTA, are intended to operate in lockstep to improve661abysmal space utilization rates, hold agencies accountable for662the amount of space they use, and rightsize the Federal663footprint.664 As the Public Buildings Reform Board continues to665deliberate its next round of recommendations, I look forward to666hearing about the progress that has been made since our last667hearing and ensuring that reforms we passed last year are668helping. With an anticipated $5.4 billion in savings from its669``second round'' recommendations, this next round serves as an670opportunity to realize even more savings for the taxpayer.671 I am also pleased that the GSA is taking aggressive action672to reduce costs, including taking steps to move HUD to allow673for the sale of the Weaver Building. Shaving off excess,674however, will not unilaterally rectify the numerous challenges675we face in Federal property, as the maintenance of the676buildings is becoming increasingly costly to upkeep.677 The deferred maintenance liability grew from a mere $1678billion in fiscal year 2017 to a whopping $6 billion by fiscal679year 2022, and that is just what the GSA reported. In fiscal680year 2022, civilian agencies reported a collective deferred681maintenance liability of $80 billion.682 We need to get a handle on these costs, and the683administration is moving to reduce taxpayer liability and684costs. But there are critical authorities and tools we provided685to the GSA in reforms signed into law on a bipartisan basis in686January of this year. To ensure those tools can effectively be687used, and it is important that the GSA ensures key deadlines688are met.689 For example, in January of 2026, all Federal agencies690should be reporting to the GSA, the OMB, and Congress the data691on their space occupancy, methodology used, utilization rates,692and the costs associated with any excess space. Also, by next693month, all Federal office space is required to have an actual694building utilization rate of at least 60 percent, and those695buildings that don't have that utilization rate have then 1696year to correct, or the agencies are moved out and the space is697either sold or relinquished.698 Finally, next January, the OMB and the GSA are to submit a699plan to consolidate Federal agency headquarters in the National700Capital area to meet the minimum 60-percent building occupancy701rate. The GSA was required to amend its occupancy agreements702with its tenant agencies to ensure those agencies agree to703provide the data that GSA needs. The GSA's proposed capital704investment projects are required to prioritize buildings that705meet or exceed the 60-percent utilization threshold.706 There are additional requirements on the information707provided to the committee in prospectuses, and the GSA is now708required to report on key milestones on all prospectus-level709projects. It is critical for the GSA to meet these deadlines710and requirements, not only to save taxpayer dollars, but to711ensure accountability and transparency over the long term.712 The Chair looks forward to hearing from the GSA on where we713are in rightsizing the portfolio and implementing these714reforms.715 While the state of Federal real estate continues to face an716uphill battle, the policies of this Congress and this717administration have, and will continue to, accelerate this718important corrective work.719 [Mr. Perry's prepared statement follows:]720721 Prepared Statement of Hon. Scott Perry, a Representative in Congress722 from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and Chairman, Subcommittee on723 Economic Development, Public Buildings, and Emergency Management724 Earlier this year, this subcommittee held a hearing to discuss how725we could make federal real estate work for the American taxpayer.726 Legislation that Congress has enacted, like the USE IT Act and the727Federal Asset Sale and Transfer Act (FASTA), are intended to operate in728lockstep to improve abysmal space utilization rates, hold agencies729accountable for the amount of space they use, and right-size the730federal footprint.731 As the Public Buildings Reform Board continues to deliberate its732next round of recommendations, I look forward to hearing about the733progress that's been made since our last hearing and ensuring that734reforms we passed last year are helping. With an anticipated $5.4735billion in savings from its ``Second Round'' recommendations, this next736round serves as an opportunity to realize even more savings for the737taxpayer.738 I am also pleased that the GSA is taking aggressive action to739reduce costs, including taking steps to move HUD, to allow for the sale740of the Weaver Building. Shaving off excess, however, will not741unilaterally rectify the numerous challenges we face in federal742property, as the maintenance of the buildings is becoming increasingly743costly to keep up.744 The deferred maintenance liability grew from a mere $1 billion in745fiscal year 2017 to a whopping $6 billion by fiscal year 2022; and746that's just what the GSA reported. In fiscal year 2022 civilian747agencies reported a collective deferred maintenance liability of $80748billion.749 We need to get a handle on these costs. The Administration is750moving to reduce taxpayer liability and costs, but there are critical751authorities and tools we provided to the GSA in reforms signed into law752in January of this year. To ensure those tools can effectively be used,753it's important that the GSA ensures key deadlines are met.754 For example, in January of 2026, all federal agencies should be755reporting to the GSA, the OMB, and Congress the data on their space756occupancy, methodology used, utilization rates, and the costs757associated with any excess space. Also, by next month, all federal758office space is required to have an actual building utilization rate of759at least 60 percent, and those buildings that don't have one year to760correct or the agencies are moved out and the space sold or761relinquished.762 Finally, next January, the OMB and the GSA are to submit a plan to763consolidate federal agency headquarters in the national capital area to764meet the minimum 60 percent building occupancy rate. The GSA was765required to amend its occupancy agreements with its tenant agencies to766ensure those agencies agree to provide the data that the GSA needs. The767GSA's proposed capital investment projects are required to prioritize768buildings that meet or exceed the 60 percent utilization threshold.769There are additional requirements on the information provided to the770Committee in prospectuses, and the GSA is now required to report on key771milestones on all prospectus-level projects. It is critical for the GSA772to meet these deadlines and requirements, not only to save taxpayer773dollars, but to ensure accountability and transparency over the long774term.775 I look forward to hearing from the GSA on where we are on right-776sizing the portfolio and implementing these reforms. While the state of777federal real estate continues to face an uphill battle, the policies of778this Congress and the Trump Administration have, and will continue to,779accelerate this important corrective work.780781 Mr. Perry. With that, I look forward to hearing from our782witnesses, but at this time, recognize Ranking Member Stanton783for 5 minutes for his opening statement.784785 OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. GREG STANTON OF ARIZONA, RANKING786MEMBER, SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, PUBLIC BUILDINGS,787 AND EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT788789 Mr. Stanton. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you790for the witnesses for being here today for this important791hearing.792 This hearing is about two things: cutting costs and adding793value. That is the standard that the public expects from us,794and it should be the standard that we expect from ourselves.795 Federal property is expensive, it can be complicated, and796central to how Government serves people. When we get these797decisions right, taxpayers save money and the agencies work798better. When we get them wrong, the public pays twice: once in799tax dollars and again in the quality of service that they800receive.801 When I was mayor of Phoenix, real efficiency never came802from swinging an ax. It came from discipline, planning, and803knowing exactly how each decision affected the people we were804there to serve.805 Government is not a corporation reworking a balance sheet.806It is a network of public responsibilities. Cuts that ignore807that reality don't create efficiency; they undermine it.808 And we don't have to theorize about that; we just lived809through it. DOGE, the billionaire, tech-bro failure known as810the Department of Government Efficiency, was a textbook example811of what happens when you chase cuts without understanding812value. It drove Federal property decisions at a speed and scale813that outran planning, operational needs, and basic due814diligence. Agencies were told to vacate buildings before815replacement space was ready. These decisions were driven by816targets and assumptions, not by reliable, validated information817about how Federal space was being used or which functions818depended on it.819 Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the820record the July 2025 minority staff report from the Senate821Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations.822 Mr. Perry. Without objection, so ordered.823 [The information follows Mr. Stanton's prepared statement.]824 Mr. Stanton. That investigation found that DOGE wasted at825least $21.7 billion in just 6 months. It burned $14.8 billion826paying, roughly, 200,000 employees not to work. Then it pushed827more than 100,000 additional workers into administrative limbo,828costing taxpayers another $6.1 billion. It froze essential829projects from energy grid upgrades to medical research, wasting830hundreds of millions more, offering nothing in return.831 DOGE is a clear example of what happens when you chase cost832and ignore value. I raise it here because, as ranking member, I833look forward to working with the chair to advance an approach834that recognizes efficiency as both cutting costs and adding835value, and I thank the chair for making those the focus of836today's hearing.837 As we look ahead, DOGE also taught us another important838lesson. It exposed a deeper structural problem that complicates839this committee's work now and in the months to come.840 We are responsible for overseeing all Federal property, but841GSA does not give us a clear, portfoliowide view of how Federal842buildings are being used. We get lease prospectuses. We get843scattered updates. We do not get a regular, comprehensive844report on the Public Buildings Service portfolio.845 For a system this large, this expensive, and this central846to the function of Government, that blindspot is unacceptable.847DOGE showed how dangerous it is to make major space decisions848in that kind of fog. That is why I introduced bipartisan849legislation, cosponsored by Chairman Perry, requiring the GSA850Administrator to submit an annual report to Congress on the851state of the Federal real estate portfolio. That is basic852governance.853 If we want real savings, real accountability, and real854value, we need complete information about the buildings where855Federal work is done, and we need to ensure that wherever we go856next, we are guided by data and the full scope of information.857 Federal property is a public asset. It should strengthen858the work inside it and the people who rely on those services.859Today's hearing is an opportunity to learn from DOGE's860failures, insist on better data, and set a clear expectation861that cutting costs and adding value are equally important to862the future of Federal property.863 I look forward to the testimony today. Thank you, Mr.864Chairman.865 [Mr. Stanton's prepared statement follows:]866867 Prepared Statement of Hon. Greg Stanton, a Representative in Congress868from the State of Arizona, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Economic869 Development, Public Buildings, and Emergency Management870 Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the witnesses.871 This hearing is about two things: cutting costs and adding value.872That is the standard the public expects from us, and it should be the873standard we expect from ourselves. Federal property is expensive,874complicated and central to how government serves people. When we get875these decisions right, taxpayers save money and agencies work better.876When we get them wrong, the public pays twice--once in tax dollars and877again in the quality of service they receive.878 When I was Mayor of Phoenix, real efficiency never came from879swinging an ax. It came from discipline, planning and knowing exactly880how each decision affected the people we were there to serve.881 Government is not a corporation reworking a balance sheet. It is a882network of public responsibilities. Cuts that ignore that reality don't883create efficiency; they undermine it.884 And we don't have to theorize about that; we just lived through it.885DOGE, the billionaire, tech-bro failure known as the Department of886Government Efficiency, was a textbook case of what happens when you887chase cuts without understanding value.888 It drove federal property decisions at a speed and scale that889outran planning, operational needs and basic due diligence. Agencies890were told to vacate buildings before replacement space was ready. These891decisions were driven by targets and assumptions, not by reliable,892validated information about how federal space was being used or which893functions depended on it.894 Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record the895July 2025 Minority Staff Report from the Senate Permanent Subcommittee896on Investigations.897 That investigation found that DOGE wasted at least $21.7 billion in898six months. It burned $14.8 billion paying roughly 200,000 employees899not to work. Then it pushed more than 100,000 additional workers into900administrative limbo, costing taxpayers another $6.1 billion. It froze901essential projects--from energy grid upgrades to medical research--902wasting hundreds of millions more and offering nothing in return.903 DOGE is a clear example of what happens when you chase cost and904ignore value. I raise it here because, as Ranking Member, I look905forward to working with the Chair to advance an approach that906recognizes efficiency as both cutting costs and adding value, and I907thank the Chair for making those the focus of today's hearing.908 As we look ahead, DOGE also taught us another important lesson. It909exposed a deeper structural problem that complicates this committee's910work now and in the months to come.911 We are responsible for overseeing all federal property, but GSA912does not give us a clear, portfolio-wide view of how federal buildings913are being used. We get lease prospectuses. We get scattered updates. We914do not get a regular, comprehensive report on the Public Buildings915Service portfolio.916 For a system this large, this expensive, and this central to the917functioning of government, that blindspot is unacceptable. DOGE showed918how dangerous it is to make major space decisions in that kind of fog.919 That is why I introduced bipartisan legislation, cosponsored by920Chairman Perry, requiring the GSA Administrator to submit an annual921report to Congress on the state of the federal real estate portfolio.922 This is basic governance. If we want real savings, real923accountability, and real value, we need complete information about the924buildings where federal work is done. And we need to ensure that925wherever we go next, we are guided by data and the full scope of926information.927 Federal property is a public asset. It should strengthen the work928inside it and the people who rely on these services. Today's hearing is929an opportunity to learn from DOGE's failures, insist on better data,930and set a clear expectation that cutting costs and adding value are931equally important to the future of federal property.932 I look forward to the testimony.933934 Minority Staff Report of the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on935 Investigations entitled, ``The $21.7 Billion Blunder: Analyzing the936 Waste Generated by DOGE,'' July 31, 2025, Submitted for the Record by937 Hon. Greg Stanton938 The 54-page report is retained in committee files and is available939online at the House of Representatives document repository at https://940docs.house.gov/meetings/PW/PW13/20251211/118689/HHRG-119-PW13-20251211-941SD003.pdf.942943 Mr. Perry. The gentleman yields back.944 The Chair now recognizes the ranking member of the full945committee, Representative Larsen, for 5 minutes.946947 OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICK LARSEN OF WASHINGTON, RANKING948 MEMBER, COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE949950 Mr. Larsen of Washington. Thank you, subcommittee Chair951Perry and Ranking Member Stanton, for convening today's hearing952on Federal real estate.953 So, a lot has happened at the GSA since the beginning of954this year. At the beginning of the year, GSA's Public Buildings955Service had 5,655 full-time employees; now, that number is9563,126. That total would be even lower, but GSA reversed course957on 392 departures after realizing its inability to get all of958its work done.959 At the beginning of the year, the Public Buildings Service,960or PBS, had 11 distinct geographic regions, but after a961reorganization, PBS is now structured, quote, ``based on962integrated functional operations which are centrally managed963with a portfolio structure that continues to support a964geographic presence nationwide.''965 What does that mean? I don't know.966 At the beginning of the year, PBS used its purchasing power967to encourage commercial landlords and Federal agency tenants to968adopt environmentally sustainable practices to reduce the969impact of climate change, promote energy efficiency, and save970money. But this administration rescinded Federal building971sustainability requirements and terminated PBS's efforts to972lease space for Federal tenants in ``green'' buildings.973 At the beginning of the year, the White House had an East974Wing, and now it does not. At the beginning of the year, there975were no plans to build a privately funded ballroom on the White976House grounds, but that is exactly what is happening, without977the collaboration of Congress, without the collaboration of the978National Capital Planning Commission or the Commission of Fine979Arts.980 The President started the project without first notifying981the public or consulting experts. We still don't know how much982it will cost, what it will look like, who is paying for983construction, and who will be responsible for ongoing984maintenance and repairs.985 Over the course of the year, agencies were directed to986identify underutilized and unneeded owned and leased space for987disposal, and DOGE and the OMB utilized this information to988terminate 260 leases. That is an achievement, but there was989also significant chaos and mixed messaging surrounding the990disposal of buildings and the termination of leases.991 In March, GSA published a list of 440 properties it992intended to dispose of, but the list disappeared from its993website within hours after observers noted that the list994included the headquarters of more than a dozen agencies,995including its own. GSA then issued a revised list with only 320996entries, but that list also disappeared from GSA's website the997next day.998 Now, earlier this week as well, Bloomberg Law reported that999the White House is independently soliciting bids to recommend1000the demolition of four Federal buildings in Washington, DC,1001without the input of the GSA. According to a former director of1002GSA's Office of Planning and Design, GSA has, quote, ``sole1003authority over this process,'' yet it has not followed the1004procedures required under historic preservation and1005environmental laws for these buildings to be destroyed.1006 Now, I will say I am very pleased that GSA is making1007progress on three Washington State land ports of entry--they1008all happen to be in my district--but it has taken awhile to get1009to where we are even today.1010 During a recent meeting of the Whatcom Council of1011Governments, GSA staff shared plans to combine the design-build1012contracts for the Kenneth G. Ward Land Port of Entry in Lynden1013and the Sumas Land Port of Entry in Sumas. The current1014expectation is that Lynden will start its construction1015modernization first, then Sumas will follow approximately1016midway through construction. This provides port operators the1017ability to divert at least some of the Sumas commercial traffic1018to the modernized Lynden port while the Sumas port is1019modernized. Combining two of these projects will enable them to1020complete both ports in 3 years instead of 4 and, hopefully, for1021less money, something we can all support.1022 In conclusion, the administration said from the outset that1023it plans to shrink the Government's real estate holdings by1024offloading unnecessary leases and Federal buildings, and that1025is a laudable goal. As I started talking yesterday with Chair1026Perry, having a smaller and fuller Federal footprint should be1027our goal, but the President has not been forthcoming about the1028details and decisionmaking, and that is cause for concern.1029 So, I thank our witnesses for appearing before us today,1030and hopefully we can get some answers. I look forward to their1031testimony.1032 With that, I yield back.1033 [Mr. Larsen of Washington's prepared statement follows:]10341035 Prepared Statement of Hon. Rick Larsen, a Representative in Congress1036 from the State of Washington, and Ranking Member, Committee on1037 Transportation and Infrastructure1038 Thank you, Subcommittee Chairman Perry and Ranking Member Stanton,1039for convening today's hearing on federal real estate.1040 A lot has happened at General Services Administration (GSA) since1041the beginning of 2025. At the beginning of the year, GSA's Public1042Buildings Service (PBS) had 5,655 full-time employees; now, that number1043is at 3,126.1044 That total would be even lower, but GSA reversed course on 3921045departures after realizing its inability to get all its work done.1046 At the beginning of the year, PBS had 11 distinct geographic1047regions, but after a ``reorganization,'' PBS is now structured ``based1048on integrated functional operations which are centrally managed with a1049portfolio structure that continues to support a geographic presence1050nationwide.''1051 What does that actually mean? I don't know.1052 At the beginning of the year, PBS used its purchasing power to1053encourage commercial landlords and federal agency tenants to adopt1054environmentally sustainable practices to reduce the impact of climate1055change, promote energy efficiency and save money.1056 But the Administration rescinded federal building sustainability1057requirements and terminated PBS's efforts to lease space for federal1058tenants in `green' buildings.1059 At the beginning of the year, the White House had an East Wing--and1060now it does not. At the beginning of the year, there were no plans to1061build a privately funded ballroom on the White House grounds. But that1062is exactly what is happening without collaboration with Congress, the1063National Capital Planning Commission or the Commission on Fine Arts.1064 The president started the project without first notifying the1065public or consulting experts. We still don't know how much the project1066will cost, what the ballroom will look like, who is paying for1067construction, and who will be responsible for ongoing maintenance and1068repairs.1069 Over the course of the year, agencies were directed to identify1070underutilized and unneeded owned and leased space for disposal.1071 DOGE and OMB utilized this information to terminate 260 leases.1072That is an achievement. But there was also significant chaos and mixed1073messaging surrounding the disposal of buildings and the termination of1074leases.1075 In March, GSA published a list of 440 properties it intended to1076dispose of, but the list disappeared from its website within hours1077after observers noted that the list included the headquarters of more1078than a dozen agencies-- including its own.1079 GSA then issued a revised list with only 320 entries, but that list1080also disappeared from GSA's website the next day.1081 Earlier this week, Bloomberg Law reported that the White House is1082independently soliciting bids to recommend the demolition of four1083federal buildings in Washington, D.C., without the input of GSA.1084 According to a former director of GSA's Office of Planning and1085Design, GSA has ``sole authority over this process,'' yet it has not1086followed the procedures required under historic preservation and1087environmental laws for these buildings to be destroyed.1088 I am pleased that GSA is making great progress on the three1089Washington State Land Ports of Entry (LPOE) projects, but it takes a1090while.1091 During a recent Whatcom Council of Governments meeting, GSA staff1092shared plans to combine the design-build contracts for the Kenneth G.1093Ward Land Port of Entry in Lynden and the Sumas Land Port of Entry in1094Sumas.1095 The current expectation is that Lynden will start its construction1096modernization first and then Sumas will follow approximately midway1097through construction. This provides port operators the ability to1098divert at least some of Sumas' commercial traffic to the modernized1099Lynden port, while the Sumas port is modernized.1100 Combining two of the projects will enable them to complete both1101ports in three years instead of four and, hopefully, for less money--1102something we all can support.1103 In conclusion, the Administration said from the outset that it1104plans to shrink the government's real estate holdings by offloading1105unnecessary leases and federal buildings--and that is a laudable goal.1106 But the president has not been forthcoming about the details and1107the decision-making and that is cause for concern.1108 I thank our witnesses for appearing before us today, and I look1109forward to their testimony.11101111 Mr. Perry. The Chair thanks the ranking member of the full1112committee.1113 And we will now, let me see, turn to the statements from1114our witnesses. I want to thank our witnesses for taking the1115time to be here today and for coming in.1116 I would like to take a moment to explain our lighting1117system for anybody that is new here so you know what you are1118doing there. There are three lights in front of you. Green1119means go, yellow means you are kind of running out of time,1120about a minute left, and red means to please conclude your1121remarks if you haven't done so already.1122 And that means you too, Mr. Capuano. I know you know1123better, right. [Laughter.] You can't get away with ``I didn't1124know.''1125 The Chair now asks unanimous consent that the witnesses'1126full statements be included in the record, and, without1127objection, so ordered.1128 The Chair also asks unanimous consent that the record of1129today's hearing remain open until such time as our witnesses1130have provided answers to any questions that may be submitted to1131them in writing. Without objection, so ordered.1132 The Chair also asks unanimous consent that the record1133remain open for 15 days for any additional comments and for1134information submitted by Members or the witnesses to be1135included in the record of today's hearing. Without objection,1136so ordered.1137 As your written testimonies have been made part of the1138record, the subcommittee now asks that you limit your oral1139remarks to 5 minutes. And with that, Mr. Heller, you are1140recognized for 5 minutes for your testimony.11411142 TESTIMONY OF ANDREW HELLER, ACTING COMMISSIONER, PUBLIC1143 BUILDINGS SERVICE, U.S. GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION;1144 HEATHER KRAUSE, MANAGING DIRECTOR, PHYSICAL INFRASTRUCTURE,1145 U.S. GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE; AND HON. MICHAEL E.1146 CAPUANO, BOARD MEMBER, PUBLIC BUILDINGS REFORM BOARD11471148 TESTIMONY OF ANDREW HELLER, ACTING COMMISSIONER, PUBLIC1149 BUILDINGS SERVICE, U.S. GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION11501151 Mr. Heller. Good morning, Chairman Perry, Ranking Member1152Stanton, and members of the subcommittee. My name is Andrew1153Heller, and I am the Acting Commissioner of the Public1154Buildings Service at the U.S. General Services Administration,1155where I have proudly served as a career civil servant for1156almost 22 years. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss the1157future of Federal real property management. I appreciate the1158committee's invitation to appear before you today.1159 I would also like to thank this subcommittee for its1160ongoing engagement in public buildings management and1161advocating for full access to the Federal Buildings Fund.1162Simply put, the Government no longer needs, nor can it afford1163to maintain, the amount of real estate it currently owns. With1164your support and with the necessary resources, GSA is well1165positioned to rightsize the portfolio.1166 To support this shared goal, GSA is focused on disposing of1167underutilized buildings with significant liabilities and1168investing in buildings that are core to the Government's needs.1169Where cost-effective, we will use leasing to meet general1170office space requirements.1171 I am proud to report that GSA has made great strides. Last1172year, we executed 90 building dispositions, reducing the1173Government's footprint by more than 3 million square feet.1174Those building sales generated $182 million in proceeds and1175avoided $415 million in repairs and operating costs.1176 GSA also identified 45 additional assets for disposition.1177With your continued support, those dispositions will further1178reduce the inventory by 15 million square feet and avoid an1179additional $3 billion in future repairs and operating costs.1180 GSA also continues to focus on the efficient management of1181its lease portfolio, generating $730 million in cost avoidance1182through lease negotiations and inventory reductions. However,1183GSA continues to face challenges.1184 As the GSA Administrator nominee, Ed Forst, said at his1185confirmation hearing, ``American taxpayers shoulder billions of1186dollars in delinquent maintenance costs under the Federal1187Government's current real estate portfolio. These costs are1188likely underestimated and will only grow if left unaddressed.''1189 GSA requires resources to optimize its aging inventory.1190Unfortunately, the Federal Buildings Fund has been underfunded1191by $15 billion since 2011. It is no coincidence that, during1192this time, delinquent maintenance has also risen exponentially,1193to approximately $26 billion, which is not sustainable.1194 In fiscal year 2026, we are requesting $10.5 billion in1195budget authority, a request that is equal to our anticipated1196levels of revenue collections. Without access to this funding,1197we are unable to maintain facilities in a manner that our1198customer agencies expect, and we are unable to optimize the1199portfolio in a way that the taxpayers deserve.1200 This request includes $365 million for an optimization1201program. This program will help us dispose of underperforming1202buildings, improve the quality of core assets, and implement1203lease strategies to save taxpayer money. With this committee's1204full authorization of the program and with full funding, GSA1205has projects ready to execute that will save the taxpayer1206hundreds of millions of dollars.1207 In the absence of full funding, GSA continues to work with1208Congress, occupant agencies, and the Public Buildings Reform1209Board to dispose of unneeded properties in an expedited manner.1210Through our partnership with the Board, GSA recently sold the1211former U.S. Geological Survey campus in Menlo Park, California.1212This sale generated $137 million in proceeds, reduced the size1213of the portfolio by almost half a million square feet, and1214saved taxpayers more than $110 million in estimated repairs and1215operating costs.1216 The President's budget request also supports the Asset1217Proceeds and Space Management Fund. Access to this funding is1218critical, since it is intended to cover the upfront costs1219associated with footprint reduction. One recent example of a1220project using this funding is the William O. Lipinski Federal1221Building in Chicago. By investing $20 million up front to1222relocate the tenant, the taxpayers will realize over $1611223million in savings by eliminating delinquent maintenance1224liabilities and reducing space. This is just one example of1225sensible solutions that GSA can implement if funding is made1226available to cover upfront costs.1227 Your support is vital to rightsizing the Federal footprint,1228and I humbly request the committee's support for GSA's budget.1229 I look forward to partnering with the distinguished members1230of this committee to address the key priorities that drive1231efficiency and effectiveness in Federal real estate. Thank you1232for the opportunity to testify before you today, and I look1233forward to answering any questions you may have.1234 [Mr. Heller's prepared statement follows:]12351236 Prepared Statement of Andrew Heller, Acting Commissioner, Public1237 Buildings Service, U.S. General Services Administration1238 Introduction:1239 Good morning, Chairman Perry, Ranking Member Stanton, and1240distinguished Members of the Subcommittee. My name is Andrew Heller,1241and I am the Acting Commissioner of the Public Buildings Service (PBS)1242at the U.S. General Services Administration (GSA). I appreciate the1243Committee's invitation to appear before you today to discuss PBS's1244management of federal real property.1245 I would also like to thank this Subcommittee for its ongoing1246engagement in public buildings management, including through its1247oversight and prospectus approvals, and by advocating for full access1248to the Federal Buildings Fund (FBF) to ensure GSA has the resources1249necessary to optimize and improve its real property portfolio.1250 Additionally, the real property reforms supported by this Committee1251and enacted in Title III of the Thomas R. Carper Water Resources1252Development Act of 2024 are important steps toward improving federal1253real property management. GSA is working closely with the Office of1254Management and Budget, the Comptroller General of the United States,1255and applicable agencies to implement the Act and we look forward to1256making continued progress to implement this statute.1257 GSA is well positioned to deliver once-in-a-generation value to the1258American taxpayers and capitalize on this unique opportunity to right-1259size the portfolio by making smart and strategic investments that1260meaningfully reduce the size of the federal footprint. The government1261no longer needs, nor can it afford to maintain, the amount of real1262estate it currently owns. At the same time, GSA is cognizant of the1263impact of putting too many buildings on the market at the same time,1264and we will therefore manage the oversight of the sale of Federal1265property strategically and in close coordination with OMB.1266 GSA's strategy for right-sizing its portfolio is to dispose of1267underfunded, high liability federally owned facilities, and invest our1268limited capital on core buildings the Federal government needs to1269retain over the long term. To be successful, GSA will leverage our1270leasing authority as a more flexible tool for procuring general use1271office space on behalf of our customer agencies.1272 I'm proud to report that GSA has made great strides towards1273optimizing our footprint and meeting these goals. For example, in1274Fiscal Year 2025 we have--1275 Executed 90 governmentwide real property dispositions1276including Federal Asset Sales and Transfer Act properties, resulting in1277a reduction of more than 3 million square feet and 8,000 acres of land,1278generating over $182 million in sales proceeds, and avoiding $4151279million in estimated capital repairs and operating costs;12801281 Identified 45 GSA assets for accelerated disposition,1282representing 14.6 million square feet and $3 billion in estimated1283capital repairs and operating costs; and12841285 Generated approximately $730 million in cost avoidance by1286terminating unneeded leases, reducing leased space where appropriate,1287and negotiating leases with better terms.12881289 I would like to thank the Subcommittee for recently recognizing in1290its `Views and Estimates for FY 2026' the significant challenges GSA1291faces due to an aging inventory, difficulties disposing of excess1292property, and lack of full access to the FBF, which has, over the past1293fifteen years, increased deferred maintenance costs to the point that1294they have become delinquent maintenance costs. GSA charges federal1295agencies a commercially equivalent rent for the space they occupy, with1296the expectation that these funds will be used to properly maintain the1297space. However, with approximately $15 billion in FBF agency rent1298collections utilized for other purposes over the past 15 years, it has1299become exceedingly difficult to properly maintain our core assets in a1300state of good repair.1301 As our nominee for GSA Administrator, Ed Forst said at his1302confirmation hearing, ``American taxpayers shoulder billions of dollars1303in delinquent maintenance costs under the federal government's current1304real estate portfolio. Those costs are likely underestimated and will1305only grow if left unaddressed.''1306 It is no coincidence that GSA's delinquent maintenance, as noted by1307Mr. Forst, has risen to approximately $26 billion as identified through1308GSA's portfolio planning efforts. By Mr. Forst reframing this issue as1309delinquent maintenance, GSA is intending to highlight the operational1310impacts of inaction and a lack of access to the FBF.1311 Real Property Optimization:1312 To help address this unique challenge, GSA has proposed a1313transformational Optimization Program in the President's FY 2025 and13142026 budget requests. In FY 2026, GSA is requesting $365 million in1315funding for the real property Optimization Program. The purpose of the1316fund is three-fold:1317 1. Seizing the opportunity before us and dispose of1318underperforming buildings,1319 2. Investing in core assets to improve the quality of the1320remaining portfolio, including investing in beautiful buildings, and1321 3. Implementing cost-effective lease strategies that save money1322and shift the maintenance burden to the private sector.13231324 Optimization projects will add value to the federal real property1325portfolio and be selected based on the following priorities:1326 1. Favorable Taxpayer Savings: The project clearly reduces agency1327costs, avoids future liabilities, or addresses existing ones.1328 2. High Readiness: The project requirements are well-defined, cost1329estimates are solid, and we are well positioned to start executing the1330project.1331 3. Acceptable Risk: The project has manageable complexity, without1332extensive phasing or major modernization, and tenants can be housed in1333cost effective solutions.13341335 I would like to thank the committee for its partial authorization1336of this program on a markup earlier this summer. If full funding and1337authorization for this transformational special emphasis program is1338received, some examples of Optimization Projects could include:1339 Captain John F. Williams Coast Guard Building--Boston,1340Massachusetts: By disposing of this 134,000 square foot underutilized1341building that has a 39% vacancy rate in a high value market, and1342consolidating a majority of tenants into an existing GSA core asset, we1343will reduce costs, improve the condition of our portfolio and reduce1344the size of the federal footprint.1345 + This project has Favorable Taxpayer Savings: Disposition of1346the asset will avoid almost $30 million in capital maintenance1347liabilities.1348 + It also has a High Level of Readiness: In anticipation of1349potential funding allocated in FY 2026, we are proactively developing1350space requirements and project schedules with our tenants.1351 + And it is considered to be Low Risk: The project would reduce1352the current tenant footprint by 68%, removing an estimated 60,0001353square feet from our inventory by consolidating agencies into more1354functional and efficient space. Tenants are engaged with requirements1355development and project schedules, and GSA is preparing the core asset1356to absorb the United States Coast Guard, which is the facility's1357primary tenant, into its space.13581359 312 N. Spring Street Federal Building and Courthouse--Los1360Angeles, California: By disposing of this large 715,000 square feet1361building that has a 35% vacancy rate in the highly valued downtown Los1362Angeles market, and relocating tenants into commercial leased space,1363the government can achieve greater efficiency and reduce ongoing1364maintenance burdens.1365 + This project also has Favorable Taxpayer Savings: Disposition1366of the asset will avoid almost $153 million in capital maintenance1367liabilities.1368 + In anticipation of potential funding allocated in FY 2026, we1369are proactively working requirements with our tenants, so it has a High1370Level of Readiness.1371 + And it is Low Risk: The project would reduce the tenant1372footprint by 66%, removing an estimated 344,000 square feet from our1373inventory. The Los Angeles market has a surplus of potentially cost1374effective leasing solutions.1375 Recent Disposition Announcements:1376 Although full access to the FBF would facilitate more common sense1377solutions, GSA continues to work with Congress, the Public Buildings1378Reform Board (PBRB) and federal agencies to identify and dispose of1379more properties in an expedited manner. Some examples of recently1380completed dispositions include:1381 1. Huntsville, Alabama: GSA completed the conveyance of the1382Huntsville Courthouse and Post Office to the City of Huntsville,1383Alabama on September 15, 2025. Conveyance of this property will save1384taxpayers more than $520,000 annually in operating and maintenance1385costs and avoid over $10 million in estimated capital repairs over the1386next 10 years.13871388 2. Menlo Park, California: GSA completed the public sale of the1389former United States Geological Survey campus in Menlo Park, generating1390$137 million in proceeds and offloading over 412,000 square feet. The1391sale will save taxpayers close to $4 million annually in operating and1392maintenance costs and avoid $107 million in estimated capital repairs.1393This property was identified for disposition under the Federal Assets1394Sale and Transfer Act (FASTA).13951396 3. Des Moines, Iowa: GSA successfully sold the historic United1397States Courthouse in Des Moines in September 2025 for $2.6 million1398after completion of the new courthouse. The sale will save taxpayers1399over $1.6 million annually in operating and maintenance costs and avoid1400over $27 million in estimated capital repairs over the next 10 years.1401The sale returns a prime downtown riverfront location to productive re-1402use.14031404 4. Charlottesville, Virginia: GSA worked with the Department of1405Education to convey the former Federal Executive Institute campus in1406Charlottesville to the University of Virginia (UVA) for a new campus1407ROTC center. GSA worked closely with the State Historic Preservation1408Office to satisfy historical preservation requirements, and coordinated1409closely with UVA to expedite this transfer after the Department of1410Education selected UVA as the grantee. This conveyance helps turn141191,000 square feet and 13 acres of surplus Federal real property into a1412center that educates future military leaders.14131414 5. Washington, DC: GSA is working with its private sector broker1415partners to sell the Liberty Loan Building, a truly unique opportunity1416in the heart of Washington, DC. While the disposition has not been1417finalized yet, there is significant market interest with over 1001418registrations and over two dozen tours. Initial offers are due later1419this month.1420 Fiscal Year 2026 Request:1421 In FY 2026, GSA is requesting net zero obligational budget1422authority equal to its anticipated annual revenues and collections for1423a total of approximately $10.5 billion in gross budget authority for1424the FBF. The requested New Obligation Authority (NOA) includes $1.71425billion for GSA's Capital Investment Program whose funds are used to1426repair mission critical federally owned facilities and facilitate the1427disposition of underutilized assets through the optimization of core1428federal buildings. The request also includes more than $3 billion for1429Building Operations to support operating expenses.1430 As you know, agencies make rental payments to GSA with the1431expectation that such funds will be used to properly maintain the1432facilities they occupy. GSA's FY 2026 budget request highlights the FBF1433and certain challenges we have experienced over the past fifteen years1434due to a lack of appropriated funding commensurate with the annual1435revenues and collections deposited in the FBF. Simply put, we are not1436able to maintain facilities in a manner that our customer agencies1437expect due to these funding challenges. While increasing dispositions1438and relying more on leases for general use office space will help to1439address this issue, funding will be needed to facilitate the1440dispositions and to maintain our core assets in a state of good repair.1441 The President's budget request for GSA also supports the Asset1442Proceeds and Space Management Fund (APSMF). The purpose of the fund is1443to carry out actions recommended by the PBRB and approved by the Office1444of Management and Budget (OMB), consistent with the FASTA law. Access1445to these sales proceeds allows GSA to consolidate the federal1446footprint, maximize the utilization rate of federal buildings and1447facilities, reduce operating and maintenance costs, and expedite the1448sale or disposal of underutilized federal properties, which is why we1449are requesting $193.3 million in FY26.1450 One recent example of a project that utilized the APSMF is the1451William O. Lipinski Federal Building in Chicago, Illinois. By disposing1452of this underutilized property, the taxpayers will realize over $1611453million in savings by eliminating delinquent maintenance liabilities.1454The APSMF funding has been critical to making this upcoming disposition1455possible, as it provides resources to cover essential move and personal1456property costs for the existing tenant agency. These costs have1457historically been an obstacle to right-sizing because the tenant agency1458lacked dedicated funding. By investing $20 million in disposition-1459related costs funded by the APSMF, we enable the tenant's transition,1460downsize their footprint by over 30%, and house the majority of their1461operations in a modern leased solution.1462 Let me say that again. With an upfront investment of less than $201463million using the proceeds from the sale of other federal real estate1464assets, the taxpayers can realize a savings of $161 million. These are1465the types of common sense real estate solutions that GSA can implement1466if funding is made available to cover the upfront costs associated with1467consolidation and disposition.1468 PBS Reorganization:1469 I would like to take a moment to discuss how the PBS organization1470is changing to drive efficiency, flexibility, consistent service1471delivery, and innovation that will generate long-term savings and add1472value to the future state of federal real property:1473 1. Improve Operations and Efficiency: The PBS organization is1474transitioning to a fully integrated functional model, rather than a1475regional geographic structure. PBS is standardizing processes and1476streamlining operations by functional area to drive greater efficiency.14771478 2. Construct A More Flexible Workforce: By integrating business1479functions on a national scale rather than being constrained by1480geographical boundaries, PBS can more efficiently leverage workload1481imbalances and allocate resources according to changing demands, while1482maintaining the geographic presence necessary to manage a large and1483dispersed real property portfolio.14841485 3. Deliver Exceptional Customer Service: By driving consistency in1486standards, operations, and processes, PBS will improve service1487delivery. PBS has incorporated feedback from our customer agencies and1488stakeholders regarding the need for more consistency. This integrated1489functional alignment will improve consistency across PBS programs and1490result in improved service delivery.14911492 4. Leverage New Technologies and Processes: PBS is developing new1493ways of conducting business through this realignment and1494standardization by using new technologies, improving our data1495infrastructure and analytics, and developing innovative real estate1496solutions.14971498 PBS began operating in this new organizational structure in late-1499October. GSA is appreciative of this Committee's support and1500partnership of our realignment and Fiscal Year (FY) 2026 budget1501request, which will help GSA more effectively serve our customers and1502the American taxpayer. Feedback from our stakeholders has been1503positive.1504 Conclusion:1505 In conclusion, as federal real property needs continue to evolve,1506GSA is well positioned to deliver savings and enhance collaboration1507with customer agencies, this Committee, and other Congressional1508stakeholders.1509 Your support is vital to right-sizing the Federal footprint, and I1510humbly request the Committee's support for GSA's FY 2026 budget1511request, including key investments in the Federal Buildings Fund and1512the Asset Proceeds and Space Management Fund. These tools will help to1513reshape the Federal footprint by making GSA's portfolio smaller, more1514functional, and less expensive to operate and maintain.1515 I am very proud of the work that we are doing to help return GSA to1516its founding mission drafted over 75 years ago--a mission designed to1517help customer agencies achieve their missions through cost-effective1518real estate management.1519 I look forward to partnering with the distinguished members of this1520Committee to address the key priorities that drive efficiency and1521effectiveness in federal real estate. Thank you for the opportunity to1522testify before you today, and I look forward to answering any questions1523you may have.15241525 Mr. Perry. The Chair thanks the gentleman.1526 And the Chair now recognizes Ms. Krause, and you are1527recognized for 5 minutes.15281529 TESTIMONY OF HEATHER KRAUSE, MANAGING DIRECTOR, PHYSICAL1530 INFRASTRUCTURE, U.S. GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE15311532 Ms. Krause. Thank you, Chairman Perry, Ranking Member1533Stanton, Ranking Member Larsen, and members of the1534subcommittee. I am pleased to be here today to discuss the1535future of Federal property.1536 There is a unique opportunity right now to transfer the1537Federal Government's footprint. For decades, GAO has reported1538that the Federal Government has too much space, that its1539buildings are often in poor condition, and that agencies don't1540have good data to make real property decisions. There have been1541efforts in the past to rightsize the Federal footprint, but1542these underlying issues have persisted. Agencies have often1543been too slow to shed unneeded space, and when they have, it1544has been challenging to do so. The pandemic shined a spotlight1545on these problems.1546 In response, Congress and the executive branch have taken1547actions that have generated significant momentum for1548transforming Federal real property management. To sustain this1549momentum and ensure it leads to an effective result, it is1550essential that GSA and other stakeholders continue to focus on1551action taken in a deliberate and well-planned manner. Doing so1552could generate substantial savings for the American taxpayer,1553while mitigating the risk of costly mistakes and mission1554impacts.1555 GSA's Public Buildings Service, or PBS, will be key to how1556well this transformation plays out over the next several years.1557The office plays a critical role in not only serving tenant1558agencies, but also helping to improve the efficiency of the1559Federal Government's vast real property holdings. Given that,1560it is imperative that PBS's reorganization be a success.1561 We are currently evaluating PBS's reorganization efforts1562and how well they line up with leading reform practices. Those1563practices provide a path for any agency undergoing a major1564reorganization to do so in the most effective way possible.1565These practices will be particularly important for PBS given1566the significant staff and leadership turnover it has had this1567year. We plan to issue the results of our evaluation, with1568recommendations, in early 2026.1569 In conclusion, rightsizing the Federal Government's real1570property holdings is long overdue. It is essential that1571Congress and the executive branch sustain the momentum to1572transform Federal property management with a focus on well-1573planned, deliberate action. Doing so will best position the1574Federal Government to cut costs while adding value. This will1575help ensure agencies have the right space to successfully carry1576out their missions, while achieving the most efficient and1577effective result for the American taxpayer.1578 Chairman Perry, that concludes my opening statement. I am1579happy to answer any questions.1580 [Ms. Krause's prepared statement follows:]15811582 Prepared Statement of Heather Krause, Managing Director, Physical1583 Infrastructure, U.S. Government Accountability Office1584 Federal Real Property: Successful Public Buildings Service1585 Reorganization Is Critical for Addressing Longstanding Challenges1586 GAO Highlights1587What GAO Found1588 Federal real property management has faced longstanding challenges.1589The General Services Administration (GSA) and its component office, the1590Public Buildings Service (Buildings Service), play a central role in1591addressing the high-risk issues identified by GAO of underused1592buildings, real property data reliability, and building condition.1593 Underused buildings. Federal agencies, many of which are1594tenants in buildings managed by the Buildings Service, have long1595struggled to determine how much space they need to fulfill their1596missions. Retaining this underused space costs millions of dollars.1597While the issue remains on GAO's High-Risk List, GSA and others have1598taken steps to address underused buildings in recent years. For1599example, in March 2025, GSA launched a program called Space Match to1600help agencies find available office space in underused federal space.1601According to GSA, potential benefits of the program include helping1602agencies find available space as employees return to in-person work;1603optimizing the use of underused space; and creating a collaborative1604work environment for agencies.16051606 Data reliability. Without reliable data, supporting real1607property management and decision making is difficult. GAO has1608identified problems with the reliability of federal real property data1609since GAO first designated management of federal real property as a1610High-Risk area in 2003. GSA has taken steps to improve the reliability1611of real property data, including contributing to new quality standards1612in August 2024.16131614 Building Condition. In the 2025 High-Risk Update, GAO1615added building condition as a new concern for federal real property due1616to large increases in the cost of addressing deferred maintenance in1617federal buildings. This backlog of maintenance and repair needs has1618more than doubled in estimated cost from fiscal years 2017 through16192024, going from $170 billion to $370 billion. In addition, GAO found1620in 2023 that the spaces of federal agencies, many of which are GSA1621tenants, are not well configured to meet modern office needs. If1622agencies continue to operate in poorly configured office buildings,1623they will continue to underuse space, spending unnecessary operating1624funds. GSA and Buildings Service tenant agencies are taking steps to1625improve building condition and configuration, but challenges remain.16261627 As instructed by the administration, the Buildings Service began a1628major reorganization in March 2025, which has included reducing staff1629levels by about 50 percent. Buildings Service officials told GAO in1630September 2025 that they planned to finalize this reorganization in1631October 2025. GAO has not confirmed with GSA how the recent lapse in1632appropriations affected its implementation timeline. GAO will issue a1633report in the coming months applying leading practices for agency1634reforms to the Buildings Service's reorganization efforts. GAO's past1635work has shown that agency reforms are more likely to be successful in1636refocusing and enhancing agency missions and achieving efficiency and1637effectiveness if they follow these leading practices.1638Why GAO Did This Study1639 Federal real property management has been on GAO's High-Risk List1640since 2003. GAO has previously reported that better management is1641needed to effectively dispose of underused buildings, collect reliable1642real property data, and improve the condition of federal buildings. The1643Buildings Service's primary mission is to manage federal real property.1644In March 2025, the Buildings Service began taking reorganization1645actions.1646 This statement discusses how the issues of underused buildings,1647data reliability, and the condition of federal buildings on the High-1648Risk List relate to GSA and the efforts GSA's Buildings Service has1649taken to reorganize as of October 2025. This work is a part of a review1650for Congress on the organization and management of the Buildings1651Service.1652 GAO's description of the relationship of the high-risk issues to1653GSA is based on GAO's prior work and reflects GAO's most recent High-1654Risk Update, released on February 25, 2025. As of May 2025, GAO has1655eight open priority recommendations to GSA on real property High-Risk1656issues, including property disposal, data reliability, and the1657management of deferred maintenance and repair. See GAO-25-108060.1658 To identify the steps the Buildings Service has taken to1659reorganize, GAO reviewed GSA documents and interviewed GSA officials.16601661 __________1662 December 11, 20251663 Chairman Perry, Ranking Member Stanton, and Members of the1664Subcommittee:1665 Federal real property management has been on GAO's High-Risk List1666since 2003.\1\ We have previously reported that better management is1667needed to effectively dispose of underused buildings, collect reliable1668real property data, and improve the condition of federal buildings.1669While the challenges of managing federal real property are1670governmentwide, the Public Buildings Service (Buildings Service),1671within the General Services Administration (GSA), is the agency1672component whose primary mission is to manage federal real property.1673Specifically, the Buildings Service's mission is to provide workspace1674for more than 1 million federal employees at the best value for1675taxpayers.1676---------------------------------------------------------------------------1677 \1\ Since the early 1990s, our high-risk program has focused1678attention on government operations with significant vulnerabilities to1679fraud, waste, abuse, and mismanagement or that need transformation to1680address economy, efficiency, or effectiveness challenges. GAO, High-1681Risk Series: Heightened Attention Could Save Billions More and Improve1682Government Efficiency and Effectiveness, GAO-25-107743 (Washington,1683D.C.: Feb. 25, 2025).1684---------------------------------------------------------------------------1685 As of September 2025, the Buildings Service's portfolio includes1686about 8,500 owned and leased properties covering, 359 million square1687feet and housing 80 tenant agencies. It collects more than $10 billion1688annually in rent from its tenants and provides tenants with a broad1689range of real estate services, including maintaining owned buildings,1690negotiating leases, disposing of unneeded properties, and helping1691agencies plan their real property portfolios. The administration has1692expressed a desire for a smaller and more efficient federal workforce,1693including in its February 26, 2025, memo, Guidance on Agency Reduction1694in Force and Reorganization Plans (ARRP). Since March 2025, the1695Buildings Service has been engaged in a large-scale reorganization.1696Buildings Service officials told us in September 2025 that they planned1697to finalize this reorganization in October 2025. GAO has not confirmed1698with GSA how the recent lapse in appropriations affected its1699implementation timeline. The successful implementation of this1700reorganization will be critical for the Buildings Service's ability to1701address longstanding real property management challenges moving1702forward.1703 My statement today discusses: (1) how the recommendations made1704concerning issues of underused buildings, data reliability, and the1705condition of federal buildings on GAO's High-Risk List relate to GSA;1706and (2) the reorganization efforts of GSA's Buildings Service as of1707October 2025. We plan to report more fully on the Buildings Service's1708reorganization in the coming months. Our description of GSA's efforts1709to address high-risk issues is based on GAO's prior work and reflects1710GAO's latest High-Risk Update, released on February 25, 2025.\2\ To1711identify the efforts the Buildings Service has made to reorganize, we1712reviewed pertinent documents and interviewed GSA officials.1713---------------------------------------------------------------------------1714 \2\ GAO-25-107743.1715---------------------------------------------------------------------------1716 We conducted the work on which this statement is based in1717accordance with generally accepted government auditing standards. Those1718standards require that we plan and perform the audit to obtain1719sufficient, appropriate evidence to provide a reasonable basis for our1720findings and conclusions based on our audit objectives. We believe the1721evidence obtained provides a reasonable basis for our findings and1722conclusions based on our audit objectives.1723 GSA Actions Have Resulted in Improvements to the High-Risk Area of1724 Managing Federal Real Property, but More Progress is Needed1725Underused Buildings1726 Federal agencies, many of which are tenants in buildings managed by1727the Buildings Service, have long struggled to determine how much space1728they need to fulfill their missions. Retaining underused space costs1729millions of dollars and is one of the main reasons that federal real1730property management has remained on GAO's High-Risk List since 2003.1731The following are key actions that Congress, GSA, and others have taken1732to address underused buildings in recent years.1733 Enacted in January 2025, the Utilizing Space Efficiently1734and Improving Technologies (USE IT) Act requires agencies to measure1735building utilization and plan to dispose of underused space.\3\1736Specifically, it requires that agencies measure the utilization of1737public buildings by comparing the usable square footage of each space1738to the occupancy of the building.\4\ If a tenant agency's building1739utilization remains below 60 percent capacity for 2 consecutive years,1740GSA, in consultation with the Office of Management and Budget (OMB),1741must take steps to reduce the amount of underused space. This Act,1742combined with effective implementation, would address our 20231743recommendation on the need for governmentwide guidance on measuring1744space utilization.\5\1745---------------------------------------------------------------------------1746 \3\ Thomas R. Carper Water Resources Development Act, Pub. L. No.1747118-272, Sec. 2302, 138 Stat. 2992, 3218 (2025).1748 \4\ Occupancy is the average number of employees performing duties1749in person in a public building or federally leased space at least 401750hours per week over a 2-month period. Covered agencies were directed to1751begin collecting utilization measurements beginning no later than July17523, 2025, 180 days after the date of enactment. Id. Sec. 2302(b)(2).1753 \5\ GAO, Federal Real Property: Agencies Need New Benchmarks to1754Measure and Shed Underutilized Space, GAO-24-107006 (Washington, D.C.:1755Oct. 26, 2023).17561757 In March 2025, GSA announced it would begin disposing of1758federally owned office buildings using what it described as an1759accelerated approach. As of November 2025, GSA had identified 451760federal properties--many of which were previously identified for1761disposal--for this accelerated approach. GSA estimates that disposing1762of these properties will reduce the federal government's real property1763inventory by 14.6 million square feet and save $106 million in annual1764---------------------------------------------------------------------------1765operations and $3 billion in deferred maintenance costs.17661767 In addition, as of August 2025, a temporary real property1768disposal process established under the Federal Assets Sale and Transfer1769Act of 2016 (FASTA) had resulted in GSA selling 11 properties for a1770total of $331 million.\6\ In May 2025, the board created under FASTA1771also recommended 11 additional GSA properties for disposal.1772---------------------------------------------------------------------------1773 \6\ Pub. L. No. 114-287, 130 Stat. 1463 (codified as amended 401774U.S.C. Sec. 1303 note). FASTA originally included three rounds of1775recommendations by the Public Buildings Reform Board, but recently1776enacted legislation directed an additional, fourth round to identify1777additional properties. Pub. L. No. 118-272, Sec. 2301, 138 Stat. at17783214.17791780 In February 2025, GSA initiated an effort to reduce1781unneeded and underused space leased by GSA for federal tenant agencies.1782GSA targeted its space reduction effort on federal leases in the ``soft1783term,'' the part of the lease term subject to termination rights.\7\1784According to GSA officials, GSA consulted with tenants prior to sending1785formal intent to terminate lease letters. GSA sent letters to federal1786tenant agencies asking them whether the agency's ability to fulfill its1787mission would be ``irreparably compromised'' if GSA were to terminate1788these leases. GSA estimates $112 million in annual costs savings from1789over 260 completed lease terminations or leases for which GSA has sent1790an intent to terminate.1791---------------------------------------------------------------------------1792 \7\ GSA often enters into leases for a ``full term,'' split into an1793initial ``firm'' term and a ``soft'' or ``non-firm'' term. The firm1794term is the part of the lease not subject to termination rights, while1795the ``soft'' or ``non-firm'' term is the portion of the lease following1796the firm term, which is subject to termination rights. See, for1797example, U.S. Gen. Services Admin. Leasing Desk Guide, chs. 2, 2.1-13-17982.1-14 (2022); U.S. Gen. Services Admin, Global Lease Template--GSA1799Template L100, 2 (2023).18001801 In March 2025, GSA launched a program called Space Match1802to help federal agencies find available office space in underused1803space. According to GSA, potential benefits of the program include1804helping agencies find available space as employees return to in-person1805work; optimizing the use of underused space; and creating a1806collaborative work environment for agencies. GAO has not reviewed this1807---------------------------------------------------------------------------1808program.18091810 We are currently reviewing GSA's real property disposal and sales1811processes. We expect to issue reports on those topics in 2026.1812Data Reliability1813 Effective real property management and decision-making is difficult1814without reliable data. GSA relies on federal agencies to submit1815accurate data to the Federal Real Property Profile, the governmentwide1816database of federal real property that GSA uses to manage buildings,1817structures, and land. We have identified problems with the reliability1818of federal real property data since we first placed management of1819federal real property on the High-Risk List.1820 GSA has worked with federal agencies to improve the reliability of1821federal real property data. In 2020, we reported that 67 percent of1822addresses in the Federal Real Property Profile public database were1823incorrectly formatted or incomplete.\8\ GSA took actions to improve its1824process for validating and verifying addresses in this database. In18252023, we found that over 98 percent of addresses were correctly1826formatted, but that location data errors continued.1827---------------------------------------------------------------------------1828 \8\ GAO, Federal Real Property: GSA Should Improve Accuracy,1829Completeness, and Usefulness of Public Data, GAO-20-135 (Washington,1830D.C.: Feb. 6, 2020).1831---------------------------------------------------------------------------1832 In August 2024, the Federal Real Property Council, an interagency1833council of which GSA is a member, published guidance to help federal1834agencies improve the quality of data they submit to the Federal Real1835Property Profile.\9\ The guidance instructs agencies to concentrate1836their initial data quality improvement efforts on data elements such as1837property type and property use because these elements are most easily1838verified with external information. GSA established a strategic1839initiative to improve real property data accuracy through data1840standards and management in its strategic plan for fiscal years 2022-18412026. GSA also implemented a tool that alerts agencies to potentially1842incorrect location data in the Federal Real Property Profile database.1843---------------------------------------------------------------------------1844 \9\ Federal Real Property Council, Agency-Level Federal Real1845Property Profile Data Quality Improvement Program Guidance (August18462024).1847---------------------------------------------------------------------------1848 Moving forward, GSA should continue to take steps to fully1849implement our 2020 recommendation to help federal agencies improve1850their data reliability by implementing the data quality standards1851identified in the Federal Real Property Council's August 2024 guidance1852and ensuring street address information is accurate.\10\ As of November18532025, this recommendation was partially addressed.1854---------------------------------------------------------------------------1855 \10\ GAO-20-135.1856---------------------------------------------------------------------------1857 We are currently completing an assessment of the reliability and1858utility of the Federal Real Property Profile. We plan to issue that1859report in early 2026.1860Building Condition1861 In the 2025 High-Risk Update, we added building condition as an1862area for concern due to large increases in the cost of addressing1863deferred maintenance in federal buildings. This backlog of maintenance1864and repair needs more than doubled in estimated cost from fiscal years18652017 through 2024, going from $170 billion to $370 billion. GSA's1866estimated backlog of total liabilities, including deferred maintenance,1867for the next 10 years is $26 billion, as of September 2025. GSA and1868Buildings Service tenant agencies are taking steps to improve building1869condition and configuration, but the continuing challenges led us to1870include the topic in the High-Risk update.1871 In 2023, we determined that the spaces of federal1872agencies, many of which are tenants of GSA, are not well configured to1873meet modern office needs.\11\ If agencies continue to operate in poorly1874configured office buildings, they will continue to underuse space,1875spending unnecessary operating funds. Agencies ranked a shortage of1876funds in their budget to reconfigure space as the top challenge to1877increasing utilization of their headquarters buildings.1878---------------------------------------------------------------------------1879 \11\ GAO-24-107006.18801881 In 2023, we reviewed GSA and three other agencies and1882found they did not fully communicate the potential costs of maintenance1883backlogs to Congress.\12\ None of the agencies provided sufficient1884information in their financial and budget documents to explain how much1885of their backlog was for projects necessary to fulfilling agency1886missions. As a result, Congress and the public do not have a clear1887picture of the anticipated costs to address the deferred maintenance1888that may impact critical government functions. We recommended that GSA1889and three other agencies fully communicate repair needs to Congress and1890the public. As of November 2025, all four of these recommendations1891remained open; two of the four are partially addressed.1892---------------------------------------------------------------------------1893 \12\ GAO, Federal Real Property: Agencies Should Provide More1894Information about Increases in Deferred Maintenance and Repair, GAO-24-1895105485 (Washington, D.C.: Nov. 16, 2023).1896---------------------------------------------------------------------------1897 GSA's Buildings Service Reduced Staff and Took Initial Steps to1898 Implement a Reorganization as of October 20251899 As of October 2025, the Buildings Service had taken several1900reorganization actions, such as reducing staff and developing its1901proposed new organizational structure. We have not confirmed with GSA1902how the recent lapse in appropriations affected its implementation1903timeline. We spoke to Buildings Service officials as part of an ongoing1904review on the organization and management of the Buildings Service,1905which was directed by a provision of the Thomas R. Carper Water1906Resources Development Act.\13\ Buildings Service officials told us that1907the agency initially planned to complete its reorganization in July19082025 but postponed implementation due to litigation and leadership1909changes. See Figure 1 for a timeline of events since January 20251910related to the Buildings Service's reorganization.1911---------------------------------------------------------------------------1912 \13\ Pub. L. No. 118-272, div. B, tit. III, Sec. 2305, 138 Stat.19132992, 3225 (2025).1914---------------------------------------------------------------------------19151916 Figure 1: Events Related to the Public Buildings Service's1917 Reorganization,19181919 January 2025 through November 20251920[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]19211922 Source: GAO analysis of administration directives, GSA documents,1923information from GSA officials, and court documents associated with Am.1924 Fed'n of Gov't Emps. v. Trump, 3:25-cv-03698, (N.D. Cal.). GAO-26-1925 10878519261927 Our past work has shown that agency reforms are more likely to be1928successful in refocusing and enhancing agency missions and achieving1929efficiency and effectiveness if leading reform practices are1930followed.\14\ Following these leading reform practices could help the1931Buildings Service ensure that its reorganization is a success.1932---------------------------------------------------------------------------1933 \14\ We use the term ``reforms'' to broadly include any1934organizational changes--such as major transformations, mergers,1935consolidations, and other reorganizations--and efforts to streamline1936and improve the efficiency and effectiveness of government operations.1937GAO, Government Reorganization Key Questions to Assess Agency Reform1938Efforts, GAO-18-427 (Washington, D.C.: June 13, 2018).1939---------------------------------------------------------------------------1940 We have work underway for the Congress which applies selected1941leading practices for agency reforms to the Buildings Service's1942reorganization to date. We plan to issue this work in the next few1943months. We selected these leading practices and associated key1944questions based on their relevance to Section 2305 of the Water1945Resources Development Act, which directed our work; the stage of the1946Buildings Service's reorganization; and relevance to administration1947priorities identified for Agency Reduction in Force and Reorganization1948Plans (ARRP) (see fig. 2).\15\ We interpret the administration's ARRP1949guidance as indicative of the administration's priorities in conducting1950agencies' reorganizations. We do not plan to assess GSA's ARRP, but we1951assessed the Buildings Service's actions related to its own1952reorganization.1953---------------------------------------------------------------------------1954 \15\ OMB, Guidance on Agency RIF and Reorganization Plans1955(Washington, D.C.: Feb. 26, 2025).1956---------------------------------------------------------------------------19571958 Figure 2: Selected Leading Practices and Key Questions for Agency1959 Reform1960[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]19611962 Source: GAO. GAO-26-10878519631964 In addition, we plan to report on selected tenant agency views on1965the strengths and limitations of the organization of the Buildings1966Service that was in place as of December 31, 2024. We also will1967describe former Buildings Service Commissioners' views on both the1968strengths and limitations of the organization of the Buildings Service1969as of December 31, 2024, and their perspectives on potential1970improvements.1971 Chairman Perry, Ranking Member Stanton, and Members of the1972Subcommittee, this concludes my prepared statement. I would be pleased1973to respond to any questions that you may have at this time.19741975 Mr. Perry. The Chair thanks our witness.1976 Moving on to Congressman Capuano. You served on this1977committee with distinction. You have many friends here, and you1978are recognized for 5 minutes for your testimony.19791980 TESTIMONY OF HON. MICHAEL E. CAPUANO, BOARD MEMBER, PUBLIC1981 BUILDINGS REFORM BOARD19821983 Mr. Capuano. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1984 Good morning. My name is Mike Capuano, Board member of the1985Public Buildings Reform Board and a member of this committee1986for 18 years. I want to begin by thanking Chairman Perry and1987Ranking Member Stanton for inviting the Board.1988 And before I get into my real testimony, I want to also1989offer my completely insincere condolences for the Eagles' loss1990this past weekend. [Laughter.] It was terrible. I could fake1991that I care, but I can't do that.1992 FASTA was enacted in December of 2016 as a bipartisan,1993bicameral effort that created the PBRB. It was most recently1994amended last year by this committee through the Water Resources1995Development Act. And our current Board members are Talmage1996Hocker, who is the acting chair; Nick Rahall, who is a former1997ranking member of this committee; Dave Winstead is a former PBS1998Commissioner; Dan Mathews is a former PBS Commissioner and a1999former staffer of this committee; Jeffrey Gural; and myself.2000 The purpose of the Board is to identify Federal properties2001that should be disposed of and recommend them for disposition2002to the Office of Management and Budget and the General Services2003Administration. We look for properties that are underutilized2004and which have significant deferred maintenance. The Board is2005not empowered to force a disposition. All we can do is make2006recommendations.2007 The amended law dictates four rounds of recommendations. To2008date, the PBRB has submitted three rounds, totaling $8462009million in sales proceeds, $5.7 billion in cost savings over 302010years. The most recent recommendation submitted in May of this2011year identified 11 Federal properties encompassing nearly 72012million gross square feet in 7 cities across the United States,2013plus the Washington, DC, area. Our next report is due next year2014by December of 2026.2015 Today, I would just like to enlighten you about a few2016issues we have struggled with over the years.2017 While every approved recommendation saves taxpayers2018millions, it costs money to achieve these savings. New2019locations have to be identified and fit-out for use, employees2020and office equipment must be moved, and the old property must2021be prepared for sale.2022 Congress created the Asset Proceeds and Space Management2023Fund under the original FASTA law and directed the sales2024proceeds from PBRB recommended properties into that fund. WRDA2025amended that law to stipulate that future proceeds from sales2026be reverted to the land-owning agencies. In both cases,2027expenditures are subject to the appropriation process. The2028Board notes that faster access to these funds generated--2029billions have already been generated--would provide both an2030incentive to consolidate and the resources to support the next2031sale of the next property.2032 The Board's independent analysis identified approximately2033$50 billion in deferred maintenance and repair liabilities2034across the entire GSA-owned portfolio. In contrast, the GSA2035currently receives about $600 million annually to address those2036needs. GSA's portfolio would have to shrink by about 80 percent2037to keep up with the maintenance within the budget of the2038appropriation. Everyone realizes this is unrealistic and2039undesirable.2040 Moving Federal agencies to leased space does solve many2041problems. Leases, obviously, are known and predictable for the2042duration of the lease. Federal agencies don't have to contend2043with constantly degrading properties. Leases also offer the2044flexibility that can be expanded or shrunk according to the2045needs of the agencies, and taxpayers are not forced to pay for2046empty space that needs maintenance. However, the economic2047conditions that may encourage leasing in some markets also2048reduce the value of the real estate that we might want to sell2049in that same market. So, therefore, in some markets, there are2050competing interests depending on the market.2051 The Board believes that the GSA agrees that the Federal2052portfolio really should be consolidated; however, we also2053recognize that GSA currently relies on the rents paid by their2054tenant agencies to fund a large portion of their normal2055operating budget. Any consolidation or reduction denies the GSA2056those funds, which makes their annual operations much more2057difficult to do. The Board believes it would be wise to address2058these conflicting interests and would be happy to work with2059Congress to achieve those goals.2060 The Board has uncovered a fair amount of market--my time is2061coming to an end. I just want to wrap up then. I'm going to2062jump to the bullets.2063 People realize that we have too many buildings that are not2064fully occupied. We are not getting the current information we2065need to give this Congress the information that we would like2066to give you and our recommendations are more thoughtfully put2067out, and we would like to find a way to get access to that2068information. I know the WRDA says that we shall get it. We2069shall see whether that is fulfilled. I have my serious doubts2070based on past experience that we will be able to get access to2071the information that we need.2072 With that, I am going to yield back and not get into that2073red light.2074 [Mr. Capuano's prepared statement follows:]20752076 Prepared Statement of Hon. Michael E. Capuano, Board Member, Public2077 Buildings Reform Board2078 Good morning, I am Mike Capuano, Board member of the Public2079Buildings Reform Board (PBRB) and former Member of this Committee. I2080want to begin by thanking Chairman Perry and Ranking Member Stanton for2081inviting the Public Buildings Reform Board to speak. Congress created2082PBRB as the sole engine for the execution of the Federal Asset Sale and2083Transfer Act (FASTA) and we are pleased to be invited to this hearing2084to discuss our work. I will first provide you with a brief overview of2085PBRB and then describe what we are finding during our review of the2086federal real property portfolio.2087 Overview2088 FASTA was enacted on December 16, 2016, as a bipartisan and2089bicameral effort, and created the Public Buildings Reform Board.2090Current Board members are D. Talmage Hocker (Acting Chair), Nick Rahall2091(former Chairman of this Committee), David Winstead, Dan Mathews2092(former Staff for this Committee), Jeffrey Gural, and me.2093 The purpose of the Board is to identify federal properties that2094should be disposed of. We look for properties that are either2095underutilized or in need of so much repair work that it would be2096financially wiser to relocate or consolidate. We try to focus on2097properties that offer the largest taxpayer savings. We work with the2098local stakeholders before we make our recommendations.2099 The Board is not empowered to force a disposition--all we can do is2100make recommendations to OMB and GSA. If they agree with our2101recommendations, GSA has the sole authority as to how and when to2102dispose of the property.2103 The law, as amended, dictates four rounds of recommendations. To2104date, PBRB has submitted three rounds that should total $846 million in2105revenues from sales and $5.675 billion in cost savings over 30 years.2106The latest of these recommendations, issued in May 2025, identified 112107federal properties encompassing nearly 7.1 million gross square feet of2108office space in seven U.S. cities and the National Capital Region.2109 The Board is currently assessing properties for its next round,2110which is due no later than December 31, 2026, when the Board is2111scheduled to sunset. That assessment includes recent site visits to2112Boston, Jacksonville, Denver, Savannah, Charleston, and Columbia, South2113Carolina and in-person meetings with stakeholders in each area. Plans2114are in the works to visit other U.S. markets including Bozeman and2115Minneapolis. To date, the local governments have been supportive of our2116approach.2117 During our analysis, we have uncovered several issues that I would2118like to briefly highlight for you today.2119 Disposing of Property Requires Some Upfront Expenditures2120 While every recommendation the Board makes saves taxpayers millions2121upon millions of dollars, it does cost money to achieve those savings.2122New locations must first be located, that new location usually requires2123some amount of fit-out for its intended use, moving workers into the2124new location requires some expenditures, often the old property2125requires some degree of remediation before it can be offered for sale,2126and finally it costs some money to hire brokers to dispose of the2127property.2128 Congress did create the Asset Proceeds Fund (APF) under FASTA and2129directed the revenues generated from the sale of PBRB-recommended2130properties into the fund for the purpose of supporting all the costs2131listed in the previous paragraph. For many reasons the funds in the APF2132have not been made available for the intended purpose and remain unused2133at this time. The amended FASTA stipulates that proceeds from the sale2134of properties be reverted to the land-owning agency. In both cases,2135appropriations must take place to make funds available for subsequent2136consolidations or even maintenance. The Board has noted that2137establishing a mechanism to provide agencies ready access to funds2138generated from property sales would provide an incentive and the2139resources to sell excess properties, improve maintenance in remaining2140properties and consolidate the workforce. A timely resource solution is2141urgently needed, as I will explain shortly.2142 The Board would be happy to work with Congress to address this2143conundrum.2144 The Deferred Maintenance Liability Is Extraordinary2145 The Board is conducting an analysis of the total deferred2146maintenance liability for the federal portfolio owned by GSA. Many2147properties are owned by other agencies, but data from those other2148agencies is unavailable. The analysis will provide Congress with an2149independent, data-driven estimate of the deferred maintenance and2150repair liabilities across the GSA-owned portfolio.2151 The Board's analysis has identified approximately $50 billion in2152deferred maintenance and repair liabilities across GSA's owned2153portfolio. This number is approximately twice as high as the highest2154number GSA has communicated publicly in its various testimonies before2155Congress. Using GSA's own rate of escalation (27%), in 10 years, the2156total deferred maintenance for GSA's portfolio will be approximately2157$546 billion, if there are no significant changes in Congressional2158funding or reductions to the portfolio. In contrast, GSA currently2159receives approximately $600 million annually to address these2160mushrooming needs. To put this into perspective, the estimated2161functional replacement value (FRV) of the portfolio--the cost to simply2162replace the properties, and not the market value--is $160 billion. The2163currently budgeted $600 million in annual capital funding would meet a21642% of FRV target (which is industry standard) if the portfolio's FRV2165were $31B--a stark contrast to its current $160B FRV. This indicates2166that GSA's portfolio would have to shrink by around 80% to be2167maintained with a $600 million budget.2168 The Board believes that GSA cannot adequately divest from and2169consolidate the federal presence with the speed required by the large2170pool of properties requiring vast amounts of maintenance. The effort to2171divest will take years and require funds that can be derived from the2172disposition of valued properties. However, those decisions must be made2173rapidly and in sequence, and appropriations of sale proceeds should be2174committed to the subsequent downsizing.2175 The Board believes that its work represents only initial analysis2176in that we seek properties that provide value upon their sale. There2177are a large number of buildings that present no value or such low value2178that the cost to move employees and shut the facility exceeds the2179possible savings. But these unmarketable and often underused and under2180maintained properties are a drain on the federal budget and taxpayers.2181One solution would be to extend the life of the Board and grant it2182amplified authorities and budget to achieve the number of reductions2183urgently required across the portfolio.2184 GSA Cannot Sufficiently Shrink Its Portfolio to Fit Within Its2185 Appropriations2186 Congress has sent a consistent and clear message to GSA through the2187appropriations process: downsize the portfolio wherever you can. In2188FY2024, GSA received $600 million \1\ for repairs and alterations of2189its entire portfolio. The Board can identify two properties that would2190consume this entire amount on their own. The is no realistic2191expectation that the federal government will ever be able to fund an2192amount sufficient to meet its needs.2193---------------------------------------------------------------------------2194 \1\ GSA CBJ 20252195---------------------------------------------------------------------------2196 It is also unrealistic to expect GSA to shrink its portfolio so2197that $600 million is sufficient to bring federal property up to modern2198day expectations. Testimony to this Committee in May suggested that2199land ports of entry, courthouses, and law enforcement facilities should2200continue to be owned by GSA and funded from its appropriations. As of2201right now, federal real property data show that land ports of entry and2202border inspection facilities, courthouses, and facility security2203structures have a maintenance requirement of $6.8 billion. That means2204that even if GSA sold every single office building in its inventory, it2205still would require $6.8 billion to fix the remaining critical assets.2206 Leasing Could be a Part of Any Solution2207 Moving federal agencies into leases solves several issues2208simultaneously. The biggest advantage to the taxpayer is that the lease2209costs are known and predictable for the duration of the lease, and2210federal agencies do not have to contend with exponentially degrading2211properties. Leases can be expanded or shrunk according to needs more2212quickly than buying or selling property. Lease rates are down in many2213areas of the country, meaning that agencies may be able to find leases2214which would cost less than what taxpayers pay in rent charged by GSA.2215Further, long-term federal leases are desirable to commercial building2216owners and agencies should be able to negotiate concessions that would2217enable moves and improvements to spaces, resulting in lowered or2218vanishing costs for the consolidations.2219 However, one should note that the same market that creates cheaper2220rents also drives down the value of real estate. So, in some markets,2221any sale of Federal property may bring much less than what otherwise2222may be expected.2223 GSA Faces Conflicting Pressures on Downsizing2224 As stated, GSA is under pressure to downsize from most observers2225and the Board believes that GSA shares those sentiments. However, this2226fact is often lost--federal agencies that occupy GSA-owned buildings2227pay market-rate rents to GSA and those payments are used to fund a2228large portion of GSA's operating budget. If agencies leave those GSA-2229owned buildings, the rental payments end and GSA loses significant2230revenue. The result is that GSA faces a real financial dilemma whenever2231federal agencies consolidate or vacate GSA-owned real estate.2232 On occasion, taxpayers are forced to pay twice when a tenant agency2233voluntarily vacates a GSA-owned property. An example would be an agency2234that decides to move out of a poorly maintained GSA-owner property to2235lease a more appropriate space. In that case, taxpayers foot the bill2236for the cost of moving the agency and leasing the new space; plus the2237GSA is left with vacant space no other agency will lease but still2238requires some degree of maintenance and the costs associated with same,2239and the deferred maintenance costs continue to increase. Of course,2240this not-uncommon example also harms the host community that now2241suffers all the harms associated with vacant and unwanted space.2242 The Board would be happy to work with Congress to address these2243conflicting pressures.2244 The Board Has Uncovered a Market for Federal Buildings2245 As noted earlier, the Board has been busy meeting with2246municipalities, historic preservation groups, and real estate brokers,2247and has uncovered significant interest in federal properties. At a2248recent meeting with local stakeholders in Savannah, Georgia, the local2249preservation organization and the city expressed interest in acquiring2250one of these historic properties. The Board has also been working with2251brokers to understand how GSA could divest large tracts of land for2252data centers. One property the Board has identified in Northern2253Virginia is potentially valued at about $800 million, according to2254brokers.2255 Although the Public Buildings Reform Board does not have a planning2256role, we agree with the efforts by the District of Columbia and the2257National Capital Planning Commission to create a master plan for2258Southwest DC, which has the largest concentration of underutilized2259Federal buildings and will benefit all stakeholders It is also the2260location of two of our Round 2 recommendations (the Dept of Energy2261Forrestal Building and the former GSA National Capital Regional Office2262Building). We are reviewing some of the remaining buildings in the2263southwest for potential inclusion in Round 3. However, the value will2264be greatly dependent on the plans for this area as well as the2265absorption period for existing vacant property.2266 The Board notes that GSA does not routinely engage with local2267communities, historic preservation groups, and local brokers to explore2268market possibilities when considering which properties it may want to2269divest. Instead, it creates internal priorities and then, as funding2270becomes available from appropriations, it works to effect2271consolidations.2272 In contrast, the PBRB happily engages any stakeholder we can2273identify and the local real estate community who is most familiar with2274the local market.2275 Given the level of engagement and interest demonstrated by2276municipalities and historic preservation groups, the Board is preparing2277a set of more urgent property recommendations where potential buyers2278have already been identified in order to seize the market opportunities2279we have uncovered.2280 The Lights Are On, But Nobody Is Home2281 Despite the return-to-office mandates, it is apparent to the Board2282as it travels around the country, analyzing properties and talking to2283communities that many federal properties are not occupied near2284capacity. The 2024 Water Resources Development Act (WRDA) stipulated2285that properties that did not meet a space use rate of 60% on average2286over a year, would be required to be divested from the portfolio.2287 The Board notes that agencies appear to be having trouble2288collecting real data on daily use despite readily available technology2289that would support collection and produce the valid and consistent2290information required to effectively manage properties. We understand2291that OMB is pushing agencies hard to gather and provide the required2292occupancy information. The PBRB has not be allowed access to this data,2293even though we readily acknowledge it may not be perfectly accurate at2294this time. Nonetheless, we anxiously await access to whatever data any2295agency has in order to better assess various properties we have2296identified for possible disposition across the country.2297 The Board's own work in determining the costs of maintaining2298properties ``as is'' versus downsizing and moving is hampered by a lack2299of use data, and the data are not expected to become validated until2300too late in the Board's analysis cycle. Extending the life of the Board2301would allow for continued analysis and incorporation of better daily2302use data, making our recommendations more accurate.2303 The Board will continue to talk to communities and gather2304information about what markets and properties present opportunities in2305preparation for its next report. We appreciate the support of this2306committee.2307 Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today, and I2308look forward to your questions.2309 Summary2310 The PBRB was created by Congress to encourage federal2311agencies to consolidate and dispose of unnecessary properties in order2312to increase efficiency and save taxpayers billions of dollars.2313 It costs a little money to save lots of money when it2314comes to disposing of property.2315 The Board has conducted an analysis that estimates a $502316billion cost to address the backlog of repair problems in federal2317properties. In 10 years, that backlog will grow to $546 billion if2318nothing is changed.2319 Even if GSA sold every property it owns, current funding2320levels could not meet its repairs and maintenance requirements.2321 Leasing can and should be a part of the solution.2322However, more affordable rents also mean lower sales proceeds.2323 The Board has found some properties with no value, so2324that leasing presents the taxpayer with a bill for the lease, plus the2325cost for day-to-day operations in a partially vacant building, and the2326extraordinary unfunded capital requirements for deferred maintenance.2327 GSA faces conflicting financial pressures when2328considering disposition and consolidations.2329 The PBRB and others have concluded that many federal2330properties are seriously underutilized. However, official data on2331utilization rates is not currently made unavailable for the Board to2332analyze.2333 Taxpayers would be better served if the Board and GSA2334were granted faster access to proceeds generated from prior sales in2335order to fund the next round of sales. Such changes would require legal2336and policy changes to ensure market-timed dispositions were feasible.2337 There are numbers of buildings that present no value or2338such low value that the cost to move employees and shut the facility2339exceeds the value. But these unmarketable and often underused and under2340maintained properties are a drain on the federal budget and taxpayers.2341 The PBRB will submit our next report no later than Dec.234231, 2026. The Board may submit partial reports before that date. If the2343Board is extended by Congress, the PBRB will continue its mission and2344save taxpayers billions more.23452346 Mr. Perry. The Chair thanks the gentleman. And we also2347thank the gentleman for his acknowledgment of the world2348champion Eagles, Philadelphia Eagles. Fascinating.2349 All right. Thank you all for your testimony. We will now2350turn to questions.2351 The chair is now recognized for 5 minutes of questions. I'm2352going to start with Mr. Heller. By January, all agencies are2353required to meet the 60-percent minimum occupancy target, and2354if they don't, they must correct or release the space. Data in2355this regard is also critical--I think I just screwed up my2356notes here--to the work of the Public Buildings Reform Board.2357We received a notification just this week that data release2358will be delayed due to the shutdown.2359 Look, I know there was a shutdown, but--and we will use2360that slide in the next question. But I am assuming you are2361collecting data, and maybe you are delayed because of the2362shutdown, but you have a certain amount of data now. Can you2363give us the preliminary data that you have now and then commit2364to us receiving the data on a timely basis based on the time2365lost for the shutdown? I would say that would be about March,2366March 31. Can we get the preliminary data that you have now,2367now? And can you commit to us getting all the data no later2368than March 31?2369 Mr. Heller. Mr. Chairman, thank you for the question.2370 GSA has been working closely across the executive branch,2371including with the Office of Management and Budget and all of2372our occupant agencies, to collect the data that is required by2373the USE IT Act. We very much appreciate this committee's action2374to pass the public buildings reform earlier this year. We2375believe it gives us a lot of the tools that are going to be2376necessary to rightsize the portfolio.2377 We will require resources, as Congressman Capuano and I2378noted in our opening testimony. The shutdown really did create2379a situation where many agencies were asking for extensions to2380be able to submit and verify the data that we have been2381collecting, and so I believe this was communicated to the2382committee yesterday.2383 Mr. Perry. Right.2384 Mr. Heller. The administration is committed to providing2385the information by the end of March this year. We want to make2386sure that we are providing the committee with accurate data2387that you all can trust and use to conduct oversight and to make2388decisions. I would be happy to work with the committee to2389discuss your question regarding receiving interim data at an2390earlier date. Happy to follow up and talk with your staff.2391 Mr. Perry. Okay. So that is a long answer, but what I think2392I gleaned out of that is you are committed to March 31?2393 Mr. Heller. Yes, sir.2394 Mr. Perry. And you will work with us on preliminary data2395that you have received or partial data that you have received2396to this date, assuming and recognizing and acknowledging the2397delay that might have been caused by the shutdown for some2398agencies?2399 Mr. Heller. Happy to discuss ways that we can provide the2400committee with----2401 Mr. Perry [interrupting]. And we will understand it is not2402complete and not completely reflective and might need to be2403adjusted pending further review, but we want to make sure that2404the process stays on track. We want to start looking at what2405you have now, and we want to make sure that that is just not2406some reason to not provide the full panoply of data on March240731, and then on March 31 you say, well, look, we are still not2408complete yet. We want to kind of use the opportunity to gauge2409how fast you are going and how far you are getting.2410 Let me turn to the next question, and then you can put the2411slide up.2412 As I understand it, GSA is working to reduce liability to2413the taxpayer by focusing its core, owned assets on things like2414courthouses, land ports of entry, and other specialized spaces2415while moving to leased space for traditional offices. In order2416to manage this, I think it is critical for the GSA to leverage2417real estate expertise.2418 [Slide shown.]2419 And I think, if you look at this slide, it shows that the2420expertise from the outside market of brokers really does very2421well for the taxpayers and for the Government, and so--where2422the GLS or brokers contracts play an important role in keeping2423lease costs low. These are no-cost contracts, leveraging2424experts at no cost to the taxpayers, because the experts are2425paid on commissions by the buildings' owners, and they share2426that commission with the GSA currently.2427 That having been said, where is the GSA in renewing the2428current GLS contract for leasing services, and how is the GSA2429effectively leveraging the current brokers to work through2430expiring leases?2431 We feel like you are well behind, and we need to catch up2432to this, and that the program needs to be modified so that it2433incentivizes the accurate and efficient work of the outside2434experts.2435 Mr. Heller. Mr. Chairman, thank you for the question.2436 We agree with you, and we have been partnering with2437private-sector brokers to supplement our workforce in the2438Public Buildings Service for over two decades. We recognize the2439value that they bring to the table.2440 The current contract expires in January of 2026. Our plan2441at this time is to enter into what we would call a 1-year2442bridge contract while we sort of work with our incoming2443political leadership to make sure that we structure the2444contract in a way that simplifies ordering procedures, reduces2445inefficiencies, but still allows industry competition and2446participation, and make sure we are getting the best expertise2447to get the job done.2448 Mr. Perry. And I apologize to my colleagues for going over2449time here, but I just want to delve into this a little more. I2450don't know that I was aware of this bridge contract, and I want2451to make sure that we are not creating a bunch of uncertainty2452for the year with a bridge contract. It should pretty much2453reflect where we hope we are going to go.2454 And so, is there an--will there be an opportunity for2455Members of both sides of the aisle here to review that bridge2456contract prior to it coming out, and what is the--like, January2457is next month. We are coming pretty fast here.2458 Mr. Heller. Yes. We have been working on this for the past2459couple of months and happy to follow up with the committee to2460provide additional information that would be helpful.2461 Mr. Perry. Yes, we would very much like to see that and2462provide an opportunity to weigh in where necessary.2463 All right. Again, I apologize. I am over time.2464 The Chair now turns to the ranking member, Representative2465Stanton from Arizona.2466 Mr. Stanton. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.2467 This subcommittee also has jurisdiction over FEMA. A draft2468of the FEMA Review Council's report is out. In my opinion,2469unfortunately, it still plans to keep FEMA within the Homeland2470Security Department, but the report also recommends the2471movement of most of the remaining FEMA employees out of2472Washington, DC.2473 Commissioner Heller, has GSA been involved in any2474discussions or efforts to move FEMA employees out of2475Washington, DC, to Texas or anywhere else?2476 Mr. Heller. Thank you for the question, Mr. Ranking Member.2477 I am not aware of any of those conversations occurring. We2478have been in discussions with FEMA regarding their headquarters2479lease here in Washington. That lease is coming up for2480expiration in 2027. So I have not read the report that you just2481referenced, but our partners at FEMA have been communicating to2482us that receiving that report is a very important milestone as2483they plan for their headquarters occupancy.2484 We will continue to partner with FEMA and get an2485understanding of what their requirements are in terms of2486headcount, where they need to be, and we will provide FEMA with2487options to meet those requirements in a cost-effective and2488efficient way.2489 Mr. Stanton. As part of your ongoing discussions with2490Homeland Security with regard to their current lease, you have2491had no conversations regarding whether or not they want to2492significantly reduce headcount and move headcount out of2493Washington, DC, as part of the planning for the future2494disposition of their building?2495 Mr. Heller. I think--I certainly don't want to speak for2496the Department of Homeland Security, but I think----2497 Mr. Stanton [interrupting]. I just want to talk about your2498conversations that you have had with them. You indicated you2499are in conversation with them regarding the disposition of2500their lease.2501 Mr. Heller. Absolutely, we are. I think those2502requirements----2503 Mr. Stanton [interrupting]. What have they said to you2504about their desire for the future of that lease?2505 Mr. Heller. At this point, they have really been waiting2506for the release of the report that you referenced to get an2507understanding of what impact that report would have on their2508headquarter's occupancy. But we will continue to partner with2509them, and happy to follow up with this committee on any2510information related to that lease that you would like to2511obtain.2512 Mr. Stanton. As of this time, as far as your conversations2513with them, there is no planning for another FEMA building or2514lease of a building for FEMA employees outside of Washington,2515DC?2516 Mr. Heller. I am not aware of one at this time. My staff2517does have conversations with FEMA on an ongoing basis. As part2518of those conversations, there is a chance that this may have2519come up, but I am not aware of any active plans at this time to2520enter into leases anywhere else.2521 Mr. Stanton. Okay. They better act quick because, according2522to the report that just came out today, as we speak in this2523hearing, they are planning to move their employees out of2524Washington, DC. At least that is what Secretary Noem wants to2525do. The bill that I have with Ranking Member Larsen and2526Chairman Graves very much goes in a different direction. We2527want to make sure that we continue to grow FEMA here in2528Washington and move the FEMA Director to a Cabinet-level2529position. So I appreciate that information.2530 Congressman Capuano, good to see you. Welcome back to this2531august committee. As GSA eliminates space, should customer2532service operations, such as Social Security field offices and2533VA health facilities, be treated the same as general office2534space? How can GSA ensure that the taxpayers who pay for these2535Federal services still have access to them?2536 Mr. Capuano. The answer is, we don't look at that type of2537stuff. We are interested in buildings. Obviously, as a former2538Member, I fought to keep my Social Security office in my2539district for the same reason I am sure you would want it in2540yours. People need access to it. That is not--doesn't2541necessarily have to be in a Federal building. It could be in a2542leased property. There are plenty of ways to deal with this.2543 We are aware of that when we look at buildings as to who is2544in them and who needs to be where. However, the Board is not2545empowered to make those decisions. We can and do make2546recommendations to GSA, but most of what we focus on is the2547building itself, the physical assets.2548 Mr. Stanton. All right. I mentioned that I am a recovering2549mayor. Congressman, should the Federal Government work with2550local governments to determine future land use and zoning2551principles before taking properties to market?2552 Mr. Capuano. Very much so. I am also a--not a recovering2553mayor. I still----2554 Mr. Stanton [interrupting]. Recovering Congressman,2555recovering mayor.2556 Mr. Capuano. Recovering Congressman, maybe. Mayor was a2557great job. You get to actually do things as opposed to talk to2558them.2559 The answer is, yes, very much so. Again, I wasn't on the2560Board from the get-go, and I know there were some issues with2561certain properties before I got there, but in these last2562several rounds, last several years, very much so.2563 Every one of the buildings we look at are pretty major2564assets in the cities and towns. We look at them. We know there2565will be a major impact on them. We have tried very much to work2566closely with them as best we can, and so far, to my knowledge,2567since I have been on the Board, there have been not an ounce of2568problems. We actually have had less problems with the local2569communities, because we talk to them, than we have had with2570some of the Federal agencies.2571 Mr. Stanton. Thank you very much, Congressman.2572 I yield back.2573 Mr. Perry. The Chair thanks the gentleman.2574 The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Mississippi,2575Representative Ezell.2576 Mr. Ezell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you all for2577being here today and spending time with us.2578 When I entered Congress, I was unaware of the big Federal2579footprint of real estate in this country, both owned and2580leased. Not only is it one of the largest holders of real2581estate in the country, but the Federal Government is now facing2582a possible financial crisis due to these holdings.2583 Since 2003, the GSA has been on the high-risk list due to2584the financial ruin it faces. Maintenance and repairs alone are2585over $370 billion and growing worse each year. The general2586management of many of these buildings costs over $10 billion a2587year.2588 Until this year, most of these buildings sat partially or2589fully empty while the taxpayers footed the bill for them. If2590there is any place where a conversation about the need to rein2591in Government spending can be on hand, it could start here.2592 The Federal Government should not own buildings it cannot2593maintain, and it should not lease offices that are not staffed.2594 Mr. Heller, given the significant cost of ownership, is2595there an overall plan from the GSA to significantly shift from2596ownership to leasing?2597 Mr. Heller. Thanks for the question, Congressman. Yes, I2598would say there has been a shift, specifically with respect to2599general office space requirements. Those are the types of2600requirements that can typically be met in a very satisfactory2601and cost-effective way in the leasing market.2602 Where we are concentrating the limited resources that we2603have with the Federal inventory is on those more highly2604specialized spaces, such as courthouses, land ports of entry,2605laboratories, major law enforcement centers.2606 So we do seek to enhance our partnership with the private2607sector in terms of leasing for general office space as we move2608forward. I think our financial situation just dictates that we2609must do so, and it is a sensible thing to do.2610 Mr. Ezell. Thank you. Could you tell me what has been the2611main burden of transitioning from ownership to leasing?2612 Mr. Heller. Yes. The main burden--and thank you for the2613question--is really funding to relocate agencies. I think2614Congressman Capuano did a really good job in his opening2615remarks outlining some of the costs associated with relocation.2616You have got to build out space in a new location to meet the2617tenant's needs. You have got to physically move them. You have2618got to buy personal property like IT and furniture.2619 And so I would say really the chronic underfunding of the2620Federal Buildings Fund is to the tune of $15 billion over the2621past decade and a half. We have developed a program called the2622Optimization Program, and we appreciate this committee's2623support of that program. We were able to allocate about $2502624million of funding in fiscal year 2025 and have requested $3652625million more in 2026.2626 And we also seek to partner with the Public Buildings2627Reform Board on the Asset Proceeds Fund where we have requested2628$193 million in fiscal year 2026. Our issue is that we need to2629get access to that funding to make some of these relocations2630happen so that we can dispose of the assets effectively.2631 Mr. Ezell. Thank you.2632 Last question. Beyond eliminating commission credits and2633recompeting at the task order level, what else might be used to2634help attract and retain the best brokers for GSA services?2635 Mr. Heller. Well, I think sort of relying on a merit-based2636system and rewarding those high performers. And so as we seek2637to strategize around our longer term broker contract over the2638next several months, we are going to be looking at ways to2639incentivize strong performance and to minimize inefficiencies2640and simplify the ordering procedures.2641 Mr. Ezell. That is going to help speed up the process?2642 Mr. Heller. I hope so.2643 Mr. Ezell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.2644 Mr. Perry. The Chair thanks the gentleman.2645 The Chair now recognizes the ranking member of the full2646committee, Representative Larsen from Washington.2647 Mr. Larsen of Washington. Thank you, Chair.2648 First for Representative Capuano. Now that you have May of26492025 recommendations out, you said 11 Federal projects, 7.12650million gross square feet, what happens next with those2651recommendations?2652 Mr. Capuano. Well, the recommendations require the approval2653of OMB, which they have already given, and now it goes to GSA2654to make the dispositions the way they see fit. We have no2655authority to tell them how to do it.2656 I will say that in this round, GSA--we have been pushing2657the use of brokers for years now. Up until now, GSA has2658resisted that. It has basically just put the properties on2659websites, which has resulted in not such great results, in my2660opinion.2661 But this round, I will say that the GSA has hired a few2662brokers to try to help them get rid of some, and I think I am2663looking forward to a more successful round than we have had in2664the past.2665 Mr. Larsen of Washington. And following up, you said you2666have another round and then the Board sunsets at the end of2667next year. Is that right?2668 Mr. Capuano. Yes.2669 Mr. Larsen of Washington. Do you have a goal for that next2670round, or do the recommendations come organically?2671 Mr. Capuano. Little bit of both. I mean, the goal is to try2672to do the best we can. I mean, none of us are in favor of2673leaving empty buildings in the portfolio. However, it is2674difficult to locate them. We don't have any access to the2675information that this committee is also looking for. We do the2676best we can with what we have.2677 We have a very small staff, and so, therefore, we don't try2678to bite off more than we can chew. I do think that that argues2679in favor of either extending the Board or creating some other2680entity that would then carry on the work of the Board, if for2681no other reason, to keep the other agency's feet to the fire. I2682think it has been very helpful to focus people's attention.2683When we start looking at a building, others start looking at it2684as well.2685 So for the next round, we have had internal discussions of2686not waiting till the end to make one big recommendation. We2687might make an approach where we make a few smaller2688recommendations as we go along. No reason to keep buildings in2689the portfolio that are ready to be disposed of.2690 Mr. Larsen of Washington. Yes. Great. Thanks.2691 Dr. Krause, GAO added building condition back as a high-2692risk issue this year. What are the issues on your radar for the2693high-risk update?2694 Ms. Krause. Yes, we will continue to track the four areas2695of our high risk related to Federal properties. So you2696mentioned building condition, which is something we will2697continue to monitor, but the other areas are related to2698facility security; data reliability, having good data to make2699decisions like we are seeing with the USE IT Act and the data2700we will have on utilization come the beginning of the year; as2701well as addressing underused property.2702 So we will continue to look at that and have a number of2703reviews and reports. We anticipate issuing it next year.2704 Mr. Larsen of Washington. Okay. Great.2705 Commissioner Heller, I mentioned at the beginning of my2706comments how many folks GSA Public Buildings Service employed2707at the beginning of the year. It's about 2,400 or so fewer. Is2708that the right number, or should it be higher or lower? I mean,2709are you able to get your work done? Because we have a lot2710through the USE IT Act. We gave you work so that we could get2711to the right size, the footprint.2712 And there is a separate question about what the right size2713of the Federal Government employee base should be, but do you2714have the people you need? Because you did as well hire back 3922715people after cutting--not you personally, but we all know how2716that happened. So where are you in terms of people?2717 Mr. Heller. Thanks for the question, Mr. Congressman.2718 So we did effect our reorganization formally on October 20.2719And as you noted in your opening comments, we are now an2720integrated, functional organization where we organize sort of2721by major program area. We call it integrated because we work2722together across our different disciplines to deliver services2723to our customers.2724 Our current political leadership at GSA is very focused,2725laser-focused on the Public Buildings Service being able to2726effectively provide services to the occupant agencies that pay2727us for those services and to provide value to the taxpayers,2728and that is why I was able to get the approval to offer the2729opportunity to come back to almost 400 folks across PBS, and2730very happy to report that almost 300 of them did decide to come2731back and have since rejoined us.2732 We are really going through an exercise now to determine if2733there are additional gaps in our workforce. And I know that our2734leadership has been very supportive of our needs and PBS, and I2735am confident that, to the extent that we do have additional2736needs, that we will get the support to fill those needs through2737maybe a combination of Federal employees and contractor2738employees. But we are certainly going to be staffed in a way2739that enables us to deliver our services effectively.2740 Mr. Larsen of Washington. Thank you. We will have to2741certainly monitor that as we go forward.2742 And with that, I yield back.2743 Mr. Perry. The Chair thanks the gentleman.2744 The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from California,2745Representative Kiley.2746 Mr. Kiley of California. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate2747you convening this hearing and your work on this important2748topic, and we are seeing, I think, some major improvements for2749taxpayers, which is a great thing.2750 Mr. Heller, I wanted to get your thoughts on an Executive2751order that the President issued making Federal agriculture--2752Federal architecture, I should say--beautiful again, which I2753think is a pretty exciting idea, so much so, in fact, that I2754have introduced legislation to codify it.2755 Do you know how that is going in terms of its2756implementation?2757 Mr. Heller. Thanks for the question, Congressman.2758 It is going well. The Executive order requires us to have2759qualified professionals within the Public Buildings Service who2760are expert in classical and traditional architecture. It2761requires us to hire a senior adviser for those types of2762matters, and we are in the process of doing so.2763 We have been able to analyze our ongoing design and2764construction projects and realign them to ensure that they do2765align with the President's Executive order. Like all of the2766President's Executive orders, our job is to implement them to2767the maximum extent possible, and we are certainly doing so with2768that particular Executive order.2769 Mr. Kiley of California. Yes. One rationale for the E.O. is2770that some of our public buildings have just kind of become2771eyesores. But on the flip side, there is this idea that the2772public buildings that we have--courthouses, other places where2773citizens gather, and we see it here in DC with our well-known2774national buildings--should evoke--they should be beautiful, but2775they should also evoke this sort of civic spirit about what2776democracy is all about.2777 Do you want to just say a word about how that philosophy is2778informing the process?2779 Mr. Heller. Happy to do it, and maybe do so with a real2780life example.2781 So last week, I was in Huntsville, Alabama, to meet with2782the Federal Judiciary, their Space and Facilities Committee,2783and we met in the new courthouse that GSA recently constructed2784in that city. Happy to report that we conveyed the former2785courthouse out of Federal ownership earlier this year as well.2786And I think when you sort of drive up on that building or walk2787into that building, you get a sense that you are in a Federal2788courthouse. And I think all of the meeting participants that2789were there last week kind of agreed upon that. So I think that2790is just an example of how we are putting the Executive order to2791action.2792 Mr. Kiley of California. That is great to hear. Thank you2793for your work on that. I have the bill here. Senator Banks has2794a companion measure over in the Senate. So hopefully we will2795get that in statute as well.2796 I yield back.2797 Mr. Perry. The Chair thanks the gentleman.2798 The Chair now recognizes the gentlewoman from Nevada, Ms.2799Titus.2800 Ms. Titus. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.2801 I could not disagree more with my colleague about the need2802for classical architecture on every one of our Federal2803buildings. I support the notion that has been in place for2804decades, that our Federal buildings should reflect the culture,2805the talent, the history of the places where they are built. We2806don't want a courthouse in Boston looking like it is from Santa2807Fe, we want the Santa Fe courthouse to look like that.2808 So with all due respect, one man's eyesore is another man's2809Notre Dame. So I have a bill called Democracy in Design that2810would do just the opposite. So you don't have to thank me for2811that question. I want to put that out there as a statement.2812 Now, through its fine arts program, GSA maintains one of2813the oldest and largest public collections in the United States.2814Some of this work goes back to the 1850s. It is displayed in2815Federal buildings all around the country, courthouses. It2816carries deep cultural meaning, significance, helps us2817understand our culture and our history.2818 Now, as you work to get rid of some of these buildings and2819to oversee the Federal real estate portfolio, I want to be sure2820that this art is being protected, taken care of like it should2821be. So we have a Fine Arts Protection Act, directs the GAO to2822survey the art that is out there in the collection, provide a2823recommendation of how we can protect it. I am wondering if2824maybe you are aware of that, if you are doing that. Are you2825working with other institutions like the Smithsonian? And what2826about the murals that are on the outside of the buildings that2827you are selling and tearing down? What are you doing to protect2828those?2829 Mr. Heller. Thank you for the question.2830 Ms. Titus. Answer the question.2831 Mr. Heller. All right. All right. Well, we certainly want2832to respect the artwork in any facility that GSA is disposing2833of, and that is our goal. GSA has options available to itself2834to include covenants in the deed, maintain ownership in the2835artwork, and those are strategies that we would utilize to2836ensure that that artwork is preserved appropriately.2837 Ms. Titus. Could you give us some of that information about2838what those covenants are and what is actually being done,2839instead of what you might have in place to protect that art?2840 Mr. Heller. Yes, ma'am, happy to follow up with the2841committee and provide that information.2842 Ms. Titus. Okay, good. I look forward to getting that.2843 Now, another question I have is that, recently, the State2844Department X account posted that they had renamed the Peace2845Institute, the Institute of Peace, to now the Donald Trump2846Institute of Peace. Now, I have some personal reservations,2847political reservations about putting his name on the Institute2848of Peace given his foreign policy and some of his renaming of2849the Department of Defense and all that.2850 But I wonder, what is the GSA's role in allowing that name2851change to have happened?2852 Mr. Heller. The GSA did have no formal role in that2853renaming. GSA transferred the building back to the U.S.2854Institute of Peace earlier this year, and we had no involvement2855in the renaming of that facility.2856 Ms. Titus. Well, according to our legislative counsel, it2857is still a GSA building. So why wouldn't you be involved in2858that, or did you just abdicate your responsibility?2859 Mr. Heller. The transfer back to USIP occurred--I don't2860have an exact date, but it occurred within the last month or2861so, and would be happy to follow up with you and your team to2862clear that issue up.2863 Ms. Titus. That would be great. And so if you could also2864send us maybe any of the communication that we had between GSA2865and the State Department about renaming that. Surely they told2866you they were going to do it even if you didn't have any input2867into it. Or did you just see it driving by?2868 Mr. Heller. If the committee does have written requests for2869information between GSA and the State Department, happy to2870follow our normal customary procedures and providing that.2871 Ms. Titus. Great. Well, thank you.2872 Now, also, this is not the only thing that is happening2873here. I mean, we have torn down the East Wing. I mean, that is2874outrageous enough, but now we are hearing from the President he2875has got other plans. We are going to have an Arc de Trump. He2876is putting together some commission of unknown people, I don't2877know who they are, to look at other changes to the White House2878and other reforms and other rebuilding, make everything look2879like Mar-a-Lago. How is the GSA involved in that?2880 Mr. Heller. I am not familiar with those conversations,2881and, respectfully, I would have to defer to the White House on2882that matter.2883 Ms. Titus. But isn't that your job to those Federal2884buildings, to oversee----2885 Mr. Heller [interrupting]. Well, there are multiple2886agencies involved with the management of the White House. GSA2887is one of them, but----2888 Ms. Titus [interrupting]. What about this new arc?2889 Mr. Heller. I am not familiar with those details, no.2890 Ms. Titus. It seems like GSA is kind of helpless or2891hopeless in light of what is going on with our Federal2892buildings and the dictates that come from the President. Is2893there any reason to keep you around?2894 Mr. Heller. Well, I think there is a lot of reasons to keep2895GSA around. We deliver savings for the taxpayer, provide high-2896value services to our customers. But with respect to the2897projects at the White House, I would have to defer to the White2898House.2899 Ms. Titus. Or the public art or the arc or any of that?2900 Mr. Heller. Well, as I mentioned----2901 Ms. Titus [interrupting]. I will yield back. Thank you.2902 Mr. Heller [continuing]. A few moments ago, we are2903certainly committed to preserving artwork and respecting its2904historical integrity.2905 Mr. Perry. The Chair thanks the gentlelady.2906 The Chair now recognizes the Representative from Michigan,2907Representative Barrett.2908 Mr. Barrett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you all for2909being here. Merry Christmas, and I appreciate your testimony.2910 I am probably the least qualified person to opine on2911architecture and what is artistic and aesthetic. I am just an2912Army grunt, so I will leave it to the professionals to make2913that determination.2914 One interesting point I was thinking about is the last2915major restoration or renovation in the White House was about 752916years ago, and I think they tore it down to the wall studs and2917rebuilt entirely from the inside. And, Mr. Chairman, my great-2918grandfather was actually on the commission that helped oversee2919that 75 years ago, which was kind of interesting.2920 But, anyway, the questions I had for you. When I heard we2921were having a PBS in our hearing, I thought maybe we were all2922going to go viral today, but it turns out you are with a2923different PBS. So thank you for being here nonetheless.2924 I wanted to ask--so I had a Social Security office in my2925district that closed for several months. It was a leased2926building, and it felt like the property owner was not really2927diligently working in earnest to remedy the issues of concern2928there before the building and the office could be reopened.2929 Do you feel that we have adequate enforcement capability2930with our--like the leased spaces that we have that are owned by2931a landlord, do we have adequate leverage to make sure that they2932are enforcing their obligations appropriately?2933 Mr. Heller. Thank you for the question, Congressman.2934 Yes, generally, I think we do have the right enforcement2935mechanisms embedded into our leased contracts to remedy issues2936such as that, in an expeditious manner. Unfortunate to hear2937about the Social Security office in your district, and I would2938be happy to follow up with you to get more details and get a2939better understanding of what took place there and how we can2940make sure----2941 Mr. Barrett [interposing]. Sure.2942 Mr. Heller [continuing]. That doesn't reoccur elsewhere.2943 Mr. Barrett. Yes. Thankfully, they have since reopened.2944Appreciate the work to get that done. But it did give me2945concern that if we were constantly in this dispute with a2946landlord with an important office that affects, obviously,2947constituents in my district but could be equally applicable2948anywhere else in the country, that we want to make sure we have2949the appropriate negotiating leverage over the landlord for any2950leases that we are engaged in.2951 I am also curious to know, I mean, we talked a lot about2952deferred maintenance and how a lot of legacy buildings are2953going to cost a lot more to upkeep or renovate or build back2954into a condition of serviceability. So there has been a shift2955to kind of go into more leased spaces, which I think in today's2956evolving workforce environment might make a lot of sense, that2957we have a little bit more of a nimble ability then to scale up2958or scale down based on the needs that we have without owning2959the underlying assets.2960 You pointed out some costs associated with that, kind of2961more startup costs maybe. Have you done or has there been any2962analysis of kind of the break even point, if we were to do2963everything that the three of you think may be necessary to get2964done to perfectly move into the right appropriate size space2965and maybe shed off some of these legacy buildings that may not2966be necessary anymore? At what point do you think the taxpayers2967could break even on those leased spaces?2968 Mr. Heller. Thank you for the question, Congressman.2969 We really look to analyze financially every one of those2970transactions that you just described, and typically, we like to2971see that we are able to recoup throughout the firm term of the2972lease at least the amount of savings in terms of reduced rental2973cost to the taxpayer that it costs to move the tenant upfront.2974 So if it is going to cost $10 million to move the tenant2975out of a Federal building into a leased space, we want to2976ensure that the Government is going to save at least $102977million during the occupancy of that lease. So that is one of2978the ways that we look at it.2979 Mr. Barrett. Do you take into account--I assume if we2980vacate a building, do we sell that, or what happens to the2981building in the inventory, or is it, like, by the time it is in2982that condition, it is like when you try and trade in your car2983when you are in college and it is not worth anything anymore?2984 Mr. Heller. Every asset is different. There is usually a2985market for every one. But, primarily, the savings that we2986capture are associated with the deferred maintenance costs and2987the annual operating costs that the asset incurs related to2988janitorial services, keeping the lights and the heat and the2989cooling on, and----2990 Mr. Barrett [interposing]. Right.2991 Mr. Heller [continuing]. The operations and maintenance of2992the mechanical plan.2993 Mr. Barrett. Okay. My last question, Mr. Chairman.2994 A lot of our Federal buildings are historic in nature. If2995we have deferred in a lot of maintenance due on them, are we2996obligated by a lot of the historic preservation requirements to2997replace the building facade with the exact same material that2998might be difficult to source, or can we be a little bit more2999pragmatic with how we do that?3000 Mr. Heller. I am not an expert on all of those details. I3001certainly have folks within our staff that are. But there are3002generally different approaches that you can take to mitigate3003different adverse impacts to a historic building. And we work3004closely with stakeholders, such as State historic preservation3005officers, other consulting parties, where applicable, to put3006those measures in place.3007 Mr. Barrett. Okay. Thank you. Appreciate it.3008 Thank you, Mr. Chair.3009 Mr. Perry. The Chair thanks the gentleman.3010 The Chair now recognizes the Representative from3011Washington, DC, Delegate Norton.3012 Ms. Norton. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.3013 I strongly oppose the Trump administration's plans to move3014Federal agencies outside the District of Columbia and the3015National Capital region. However, there are specific Federal3016buildings in DC that GSA should dispose of and then relocate3017the employees in these buildings to other buildings in DC These3018disposals would save the Federal Government money, generate tax3019revenue for DC, increase housing supply, and lead to new mixed-3020lease neighborhoods.3021 I am deeply concerned that the Trump administration has not3022developed a plan to dispose of Federal buildings in DC in a3023manner that benefits both Federal taxpayers and DC.3024 My question for all three witnesses is, what is your view3025of establishing an entity like the Pennsylvania Avenue3026Development Corporation or using a mass developer, as was done3027for the Southeast Federal Center, now known as The Yards, to3028develop a plan for and to manage these disposals? This is for3029all three witnesses.3030 Ms. Krause. I can start. That seems like a reasonable3031proposal to explore. I think anytime you have a number of3032assets in a similar location, you need to take a strategic look3033at how you are redeveloping them. So, that redevelopment really3034requires deliberative planning and partnering with local3035partners or working, coordinating with local partners to ensure3036you are maximizing taxpayer value.3037 Mr. Capuano. Again, the Board, per se, would have no role3038in that, but we have had our discussions. We would strongly3039support the general concept of it, especially in the DC area,3040but not only in the DC area. There are other cities around the3041country that have concentrations of Federal buildings that3042would be seriously impacted, depending on what we do with them.3043 We like the idea of working with local communities or city3044leaders to try to come up with what they want. And some of3045these areas--especially DC--are just too large, it is more than3046just one building, have a major impact on the community, have a3047major impact on the real estate values that are underlying. So3048we very much favor the concept of creating some sort of entity3049to do it. Again, I would say not just in DC, but around the3050country. DC is not the only place that has those concerns, but3051I think the concept is absolutely right.3052 Mr. Heller. Yes, I will agree with my colleagues here on3053the panel. GSA has begun to make good progress in disposing of3054unneeded buildings here in the district. We sold the Webster3055School earlier this year. Liberty Loan and our former regional3056office building at 7th and D are both currently on the market,3057and we would welcome an opportunity to partner with this3058committee and other stakeholders to ensure that as we dispose3059of these facilities, that they are either reused and3060redeveloped in a way that benefits the local community and the3061taxpayers.3062 Ms. Norton. Commissioner Heller, GSA has not been3063coordinating closely enough with DC on the disposal of Federal3064buildings here. Do you think such coordination is important,3065and will you commit to close coordination with DC on all future3066disposals?3067 Mr. Heller. Thank you for the question, Congresswoman.3068 We agree that stakeholder engagement is an important facet3069of disposing of buildings effectively, and we seek to partner3070with local communities in every community that we dispose of3071Federal buildings in. So, yes, we will continue to partner with3072the district and, again, make sure that as Federal buildings3073are redeveloped or reused, that they are done in a way that3074benefits the local community and the taxpayer.3075 Ms. Norton. I yield back.3076 Mr. Perry. The gentlelady yields back. I thank the3077gentlelady.3078 Are there further questions from any of the members of the3079subcommittee who have not yet been recognized?3080 Seeing none, and sadly saying so, that concludes our3081hearing for today. I would like to thank each of the witnesses3082for your testimony.3083 This subcommittee stands adjourned.3084 [Whereupon, at 11:13 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]30853086 Appendix30873088 ----------30893090 Questions to Andrew Heller, Acting Commissioner, Public Buildings3091 Service, U.S. General Services Administration, from Hon. Rick Larsen30923093 Question 1. Is the White House a public building? Has GSA been3094involved in the destruction of the East Wing and the planning for the3095construction of a new ballroom on the White House grounds?3096 Answer. GSA did not participate in the recent decision to demolish3097the East Wing or any contracting to obtain the services of a demolition3098company. GSA has taken no actions, and has no plans to take any3099actions, to contract for the planning, design, or construction of the3100proposed ballroom.31013102 Question 2. 42 U.S.C. Section 8259 establishes requirements for3103energy and water management in federal buildings and defines the term3104``Federal building'' as ``any building, structure, or facility, or part3105thereof, including the associated energy consuming support systems,3106which is constructed, renovated, leased, or purchased in whole or in3107part for use by the Federal Government . . . ''3108 Will the new White House ballroom meet the energy and water3109requirements included in 42 U.S.C. Section 8259?3110 Answer. Please refer to the prior response.31113112 Question 3. President Trump rescinded Executive Order 14057 which3113required federal buildings to achieve net-zero building emissions by31142045.3115 Will GSA continue to participate in the Energy Star program?3116 Answer. In accordance with the Energy Independence and Security Act3117of 2007 (EISA) Section 432 and Energy Act of 2020 requirements, GSA3118will continue to use the Department of Energy (DOE) Compliance Tracking3119System and the DOE identified benchmarking system (i.e., Energy Star3120Portfolio Manager) for its EISA Section 432 covered facilities (753121percent of GSA's utility usage and cost).31223123 Question 4. President Trump revoked President Biden's electric3124vehicle mandate and rolled back investments in EV charging3125infrastructure.\1\3126---------------------------------------------------------------------------3127 \1\ https://www.gsa.gov/directives/files?file=2025-312803%2FPBS%205605.1B%20-%20EVSE%20Order.pdf3129---------------------------------------------------------------------------3130 What does EV charging infrastructure at federally owned facilities3131under the U.S. General Services Administration's (GSA) jurisdiction,3132custody, and control look like today?3133 Answer. GSA has 184 active electric vehicle charging stations in3134its inventory at federally-owned facilities under GSA's jurisdiction,3135custody and control.31363137 Question 5. The Trump administration established a 25 percent3138tariff on all imported steel and aluminum.3139 How have these tariffs impacted GSA's construction and renovation3140projects?3141 Answer. GSA continues to see construction cost increases across its3142projects for a multitude of reasons including construction material3143costs, skilled trade labor shortages in the labor market, and3144competition with other infrastructure and private sector construction3145work. For example, GSA Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act Land Port3146of Entry projects have seen cost increases upwards of 40-70 percent3147from the original funding levels set in 2017-2018.31483149 Question 6. How is GSA providing adequate fire, life, safety and3150building operations and management services to federal tenants when3151their staff has been cut by nearly 44 percent? Many buildings lack3152onsite building managers.3153 Answer. GSA is following the Administration's guidance to3154strategically assess workforce needs and optimize staffing. Our3155commitment to providing fire, life, safety, and building operations3156remains a top priority. At this time, all GSA facilities have an3157assigned building manager and contract support staff to ensure safe3158occupancy. GSA continues to explore options to adjust staffing levels3159to enable better service to tenant agencies.31603161 Question 7. How many Full-time Employees (FTEs) were working in3162GSA's Public Buildings Service (PBS) on January 31st, 2025, and how3163many are employed by PBS today? What skill gaps have resulted from3164staff reductions and what impacts are they having?3165 Answer:3166January 31, 2025 FTE: 56143167December 31, 2025 FTE: 326831683169 In October 2025, PBS implemented a new organizational structure3170designed to improve customer service and business operations, and3171provide a more agile workforce to respond to customer needs. While3172these changes are intended to enhance our service delivery, we expect3173some challenges given the size of the change and GSA's portfolio during3174this period of transition. However, the aim is for customers to3175experience minimal impacts on operations or service, and GSA remains3176committed to maintaining the appropriate staff and skill sets to3177consistently deliver excellent service to all of our customers and to3178meet customer's mission-critical real estate needs.3179 Thanks to this Committee, GSA now has more tools to achieve the3180goal of right-sizing the federal real estate portfolio. Chronic3181underfunding of the Federal Buildings Fund (FBF) through the enacted3182net negative annual budget authority level remains a major challenge to3183implementing these reforms.31843185 Question 8. Is GSA currently working with OMB or specific agencies3186to relocate operations from DC?3187 Answer. GSA is working closely with the Office of Management and3188Budget and agencies to optimize the Federal real estate portfolio.3189Specifically, GSA is partnering with agencies to evaluate agency space3190needs, requirements, occupancy data and then examining options and3191solutions that support agency mission needs at the best value to the3192American taxpayer.31933194 Question 9. What is the status of the Department of Agriculture's3195Beltsville Agriculture Research Center in Maryland? Are GSA and USDA3196planning to relocate the tenants on the property and dispose of the3197land?3198 Answer. The Beltsville Agricultural Research Center is owned and3199operated by the U.S. Department of Agriculture. GSA defers any3200questions related to this Center and its tenants to the Department of3201Agriculture.32023203 Question 10. In 2019, GSA issued FMR Bulletin B-49 which clarified3204that ``sleeping in buildings under the jurisdiction, custody or control3205of GSA, including those buildings delegated to other Federal agencies3206by the Administrator of General Services, is prohibited, except when3207expressly authorized by an agency official.'' \2\ According to press3208reports \3\, staff from the Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE)3209resided on the sixth floor of the General Services Administration3210headquarters from February 2025 through June of 2025.3211---------------------------------------------------------------------------3212 \2\ https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2019/11/05/2019-321324102/federal-management-regulation-fmr-sleeping-in-federal-buildings3214 \3\ https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2025/11/21/doge-elon-3215musk-succession-006411103216---------------------------------------------------------------------------3217 Question 10.a. Who authorized DOGE staff to reside in GSA's3218headquarters building?3219 Question 10.b. What expenses did GSA incur because of people3220sleeping in the building? For example--the purchase of washing3221machines, beds, toys, kitchen appliances, as well as cleanup and3222disposal costs after the DOGE staff moved out?3223 Answer to 10.a. & 10.b. Primarily due to increased work demands3224associated with the transition period, GSA set aside certain rooms on3225an as needed, first-come, first-served basis to accommodate3226intermittent sleep. The Government incurred approximately $6,800 to3227supply the building with these intermittent sleeping areas.32283229 [all]Witnesses
3 witnesses appeared, with 8 papers on file.
Documents
The committee filed 4 documents for the meeting.