“An Update on DoD’s Struggling Background Check System”

1[House Hearing, 119 Congress]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                     AN UPDATE ON DOD'S STRUGGLING5                        BACKGROUND CHECK SYSTEM6=======================================================================78                                HEARING910                               BEFORE THE1112                 SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS1314                                 OF THE1516              COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM1718                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES1920                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2122                             SECOND SESSION2324                               __________2526                           FEBRUARY 24, 20262728                               __________2930                           Serial No. 119-583132                               __________3334Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform3536[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]3738    Available on: govinfo.gov, oversight.house.gov or docs.house.gov3940                                __________4142                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE4362-790 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 202644-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------4546              COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM4748                    JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman4950Jim Jordan, Ohio                     Robert Garcia, California, Ranking51Mike Turner, Ohio                        Minority Member52Paul Gosar, Arizona                  Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of53Virginia Foxx, North Carolina            Columbia54Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin            Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts55Michael Cloud, Texas                 Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois56Gary Palmer, Alabama                 Ro Khanna, California57Clay Higgins, Louisiana              Kweisi Mfume, Maryland58Pete Sessions, Texas                 Shontel Brown, Ohio59Andy Biggs, Arizona                  Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico60Nancy Mace, South Carolina           Maxwell Frost, Florida61Pat Fallon, Texas                    Summer Lee, Pennsylvania62Byron Donalds, Florida               Greg Casar, Texas63Scott Perry, Pennsylvania            Jasmine Crockett, Texas64William Timmons, South Carolina      Emily Randall, Washington65Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia66Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Yassamin Ansari, Arizona67Anna Paulina Luna, Florida           Wesley Bell, Missouri68Nick Langworthy, New York            Lateefah Simon, California69Eric Burlison, Missouri              Dave Min, California70Eli Crane, Arizona                   Ayanna Pressley, Massachusetts71Brian Jack, Georgia                  Rashida Tlaib, Michigan72John McGuire, Virginia               James R. Walkinshaw, Virginia73Brandon Gill, Texas74Vacancy7576                                 ------7778                       Mark Marin, Staff Director79                   James Rust, Deputy Staff Director80                     Ryan Giachetti, Chief Counsel81             Lisa Piraneo, Senior Professional Staff Member82             Jenn Kamara, Director of Strategic Initiatives83                 Sam Meunier, Professional Staff Member84                      Bill Womack, Senior Advisor85         Mallory Cogar, Director of Operations and Chief Clerk8687                      Contact Number: 202-225-50748889                Robert Edmonson, Minority Staff Director90                      Contact Number: 202-225-505191                                 ------9293                 Subcommittee on Government Operations9495                     Pete Sessions, Texas, Chairman9697Virginia Foxx, North Carolina        Kweisi Mfume, Maryland, Ranking98Gary Palmer, Alabama                     Member99Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Eleanor Holmes, Norton District of100Brian Jack, Georgia                      Columbia101Brandon Gill, Texas                  Maxwell Frost, Florida102                                     Emily Randall, Washington103104                        C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S105106                              ----------107108                           OPENING STATEMENTS109110                                                                   Page111112Hon. Pete Sessions, U.S. Representative, Chairman................     1113114Hon. Kweisi Mfume, U.S. Representative, Ranking Member...........     3115116                               WITNESSES117118The Honorable Justin Overbaugh, Deputy Under Secretary of War for119  Intelligence and Security, Acting Director, Defense120  Counterintelligence and Security Agency, U.S. Department of War121Oral Statement...................................................     7122123Ms. Alissa Czyz, Director, Defense Capabilities and Management,124  U.S. Government Accountability Office125Oral Statement...................................................     9126127Written opening statements and bios are available on the U.S.128  House of Representatives Document Repository at:129  docs.house.gov.130131                          ADDITIONAL DOCUMENTS132133  * Questions for the Record: Ms. Alissa Czyz; submitted by134  Chairman Pete Sessions and Rep. Kweisi Mfume.135136  * Questions for the Record: Hon. Justin P. Overbaugh; submitted137  by Chairman Pete Sessions and Rep. Kweisi Mfume.138139These documents were submitted after the hearing, and may be140  available upon request.141142                     AN UPDATE ON DOD'S STRUGGLING143                        BACKGROUND CHECK SYSTEM144145                              ----------146147                       TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 24, 2026148149                     U.S. House of Representatives150151              Committee on Oversight and Government Reform152153                 Subcommittee on Government Operations154155                                                   Washington, D.C.156157    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:02 a.m., in158room 2247, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Pete Sessions159[Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.160    Present: Representatives Sessions, Foxx, Palmer, Burchett,161and Mfume.162    Also present: Representative Walkinshaw.163164          OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN PETE SESSIONS165166                   REPRESENTATIVE FROM TEXAS167168    Mr. Sessions. Good morning. The Subcommittee on Government169Operations will come to order, and I would like to welcome170everybody to this important hearing.171    Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any172time. And I recognize myself for the purpose of making an173opening statement.174    We welcome today's hearing on the modernization of the175Federal Government's background investigations and security176clearance process, in particular, the Department of Defense's177National Background Investigative Services system, also known178as NBIS. If the topic of today's discussion sounds familiar, it179should. As a matter of fact, we are getting to know each other180rather well in this room.181    This Subcommittee first examined issues related to this182back in June 2024 when Congress raised serious concerns about183persistent failures in personnel vetting. Unfortunately, the184need for continued oversight has only grown more urgent. And I185must say that it is a welcome--seemingly welcome thing for the186Administration, GAO to want to tackle this issue. But it also187leads us to today's hearing.188    Unfortunately, the need for this continued oversight has189grown more urgent, and as I said, both--all three sides are190willing to come together for this discussion. I want to thank191the gentleman, Mr. Mfume, for his insistence that we continue192down this pathway.193    During our initial hearing, we heard from the gentlewoman,194Ms. Czyz, the same GAO witness that we will hear from today.195GAO has been tracking problems with our Nation's Federal196personnel vetting process since as far back as 2005. We also197heard from then Defense Counterintelligence and Security Agency198(DCSA) Director David Cattler who, in this same hearing room,199was brand new to the job, at the same time to speak about the200program's significant management and oversight shortcomings,201poor scheduling, poor cost planning, and dozens of202cybersecurity risks, which many of them have become true.203    At the time, our witnesses offered recommendations and204commitments to correct action. Today, our focus remains205squarely on NBIS and whether the program is on track to support206the Administration's stated goals of accelerating background207investigations and security clearances.208    Specifically, we want to know whether this system is209progressing as discussed, what additional steps may be210necessary to deliver a modern, reliable personnel vetting211platform that is long overdue that exists in law.212    NBIS was envisioned as a one-stop shop for all faces of213Federal personnel vetting by providing modern tools for214investigators. Once again, not a mission being met.215    It has become especially critical after the 2015 Office of216Personnel Management (OPM) data breach in which the personnel217data and sensitive information of over 21 million current,218former, and prospective Federal employees and their families219were exposed. Yet today, NBIS has deployed only limited220capacities and capabilities, and the program is now more than221eight years behind schedule, with completion delayed from 2019222to 2028. This has cost the American taxpayer hundreds of223millions of dollars and has wasted valuable government224resources.225    I will note, before I turn the page, it would be simple to226blame the people who are here today, and I do not intend to do227that. I intend to work with the people who are here and to move228forward. But we are going to take seriously what is done today229with the need to correct that action.230    In addition, it has called into question the safety and231reliability of all aspects of the Federal personnel vetting232system. It has also showed the broader governmentwide233initiative to reform personnel vetting policies and processes234known as, in the law, Trusted Workforce 2.0, zero. The Federal235workforce and the government's industrial partners deserve236better. That was why we have held so many hearings, and that is237why the law was made. Without these vetting reforms in place or238the promised information technology like NBIS that serve as239their backbone, security clearance providers and recipients240lack advanced tools and the assurance that their personnel241information is guarded and safe.242    Agencies and contractors are left struggling with the same243persistent challenges: slow and delayed onboarding, delaying244their access to facilities, and inefficiencies that undermine245mission readiness that people, like Mr. Mfume and the246Administration, need to make sure that they have the assured247people in place.248    As was clear from our last hearing, concerns about NBIS are249shared by Members of Congress on both aisles. This is not a250partisan issue. This is a national security issue. We must251continue to work together to ensure the security, efficiency,252and accountability of these personnel vetting systems and253processes, which play an increasingly vital role in254safeguarding our national interests comes to fruition.255    I am hopeful that our witnesses who have taken place--who256have provided this Subcommittee with data and information over257the last few weeks recognize that the progress that has been258made over the last 18 months must continue. Last September,259after Director Cattler's retirement from DCSA, Ranking Member260Mfume wrote the DOD to express our concerns about this261leadership--strike that--Department of War, DOW. We encourage262swift action to put a new director in place, especially given263the ongoing problems that NBIS has and the need to effectively264place leadership in that role. We will probably hear today some265of the followup to that. But it comes with a lot of uncertainty266and a lot of frailties attached to it. We are still going to267have the hearing, and while I have no doubt that this268Administration will find another leader with necessary269commitment, passion, and qualifications to guide this full and270successful implementation, I remain deeply concerned.271    Now, over seven months since Mr. Cattler announced his272retirement, DCSA remains without a permanent director, and part273of the discussion today will be to put on record that needed274desire for this Administration to accomplish this. I am275confident that my friend and colleague, Mr. Mfume, not only276shares my concern but I want to thank him for his277professionalism in addressing these issues.278    Today, I look forward to hearing more about the progress,279bringing a new director on, as well as status of the National280Background Investigation Service program because this hearing281will further develop because GAO is here. Lots of other ideas282that they have got, that are challenges that must be met. I283look forward to hearing how we continue to use this284relationship that we share with the Administration, GAO.285    And I would now yield to the Ranking Member, Mr. Mfume, for286his opening statement. The gentleman is recognized.287288        OPENING STATEMENT OF RANKING MEMBER KWEISI MFUME289290                  REPRESENTATIVE FROM MARYLAND291292    Mr. Mfume. Thank you very much, Chairman Sessions.293    And good morning to all of our witnesses.294    I want to thank you, Mr. Sessions, for your partnership on295this issue and a lot of other issues that have come before this296Committee that really require a bipartisan approach. You have297been very clear in that regard, and it has been clear, I think,298also, to the full Committee and to others who have watched us299over the last couple of years.300    Again, my thanks to the witnesses. When it comes to301national security, I think we all can agree that partisanship302stops at the water's edge. At least that is what I was taught303long ago. And it is important to underscore that because our304goal is straightforward: deliver a background check system that305keeps United States of America safe, that also gets qualified306people to work without delay, and continuously verifies that307they deserve and have earned our trust.308    America, in my opinion, cannot hope to maintain our309technological advantage in the national security space if we310make the best engineers, scientists, linguists, analysts, and311others spend months if not years, sometimes, in limbo before312they can serve. And if we cannot clear people, we cannot313complete our missions. It is very, very simple.314    The National Background Investigation Services, or NBIS315program, was launched, as we all know, to replace the outdated,316cumbersome legacy systems and to reduce backlogs and to harden317cybersecurity. However, successful implementation is still far318from a reality, and the current plan is for technical319capabilities in Fiscal Year 2027, full implementation in 2028,320and continued rigorous oversight, if necessary, to get us321across the finish line.322    Now, since 2017, the government has spent about $2.4323billion on NBIS and legacy sustainment to keep outdated systems324up and running. That is an awful lot of money. $2.4 billion.325And the Department projects that about another $2.2 billion is326needed to finish the job. So, we are far off the mark of where327we had hoped to be. It is an enormous amount of money for the328government to spend on anything and have so very, very little329to show for it.330    I understand that this project reached a state of disarray331and that after eight years of implementation, it had to return332to a planning phase to restructure the entire acquisition333strategy. This has left contractors in my district, and334districts all across the country, stuck with unclear335instructions and increased costs as they juggle various336systems.337    In a region where roughly nine percent of jobs require a338security clearance, this really is not a small problem. It is a339huge, huge problem. It is a direct hit to workers and employers340in my city of Baltimore, and cities and towns and hamlets all341over this country, east to west. They depend on a functioning342clearance system to be able to do their jobs. And so, the343consequences do not stop with my district or the Chairman's344district. This is chaos. And in many respects, it has also come345with system outages that have stopped work on ground operations346and have caused things to come to a halt all over the globe.347    These are more than just teachable moments, I hope. And348these issues have real mission impacts. So, here are a few349points I would like to hone in on and make sure are on the350record today.351    First, we need an ongoing sense of vigilance on this352project, otherwise we will be right here a year from now353treading water. The DCSA team has provided quarterly plans and354gives a quarterly report to the industry. We need that in an355ongoing fashion. But I pledge that we here in Congress are not356going to get bored or look the other way, and we will not357settle for surface-level check-the-box compliance exercises.358And I think many of you who have followed the work of this359Committee know that that is the case. We are going to be and360continue to be very dogged about trying to bring about change361here, and we will make sure that the goals of NBIS362implementation are quantifiable and that they are very, very363clear. We will be monitoring progress toward each milestone,364and we will do that quarter by quarter.365    Second, we must ensure that transparent costs on taxpayers366are just that, transparent. And so, taxpayers can trust NBIS367and trust also that the costs that they are paying, since it is368more than double than what was previously expected, will be369looked at and looked over.370    I think all of us here agree, whether you are on this panel371or in the audience, that we owe it to the American people to372hold the Department accountable for overruns and prevent such373gross mismanagement moving forward both for the remaining steps374of NBIS implementation and for future projects.375    Finally, I expect that real results from real people will376be coming soon. We need to know that we are seeing measurable377work and progress in bringing down the backlogs. We cannot just378trust that things are getting better, and we will not let up379until we get GAO's seal of approval and can see for ourselves380that the prospective employees are on the jobs as fast as381possible.382    I am going to repeat what the Chairman just said, and that383is that the last DCSA director, David Cattler, announced his384retirement, as you heard, from his role in July of last year. I385cannot help but to wonder how we are still sitting here seven386months later and we still do not have even a nominee for DCSA.387    Today, we have a Director of Defense, Intelligence and388Security Agency before us overseeing DCSA. That is just one of389the many duties, Mr. Overbaugh, that you have. We appreciate390your work. And we expect that you will keep NBIS on track as391acting director. But it seems like that is a full-time job, to392me, and so I ask for the following clear, on-the-record393commitments from the Department.394    One, name a permanent DCSA director and the plan for395getting a qualified candidate into the position as soon as396possible.397    Two, a full cost profile that ties dollars spent on NBIS to398the effectiveness of personnel security reform.399    And, three, a commitment to ongoing quarterly briefings400about NBIS' progress toward its stated milestones. And if any401of those milestones slip, I would expect, and I am sure the402Chairman would also, that the Department will notify this403Subcommittee in writing within five business days regarding the404cause, the impact, and what the recovery plan is.405    People in this country expect stewardship of their money,406and they expect trust and trustworthy persons in and around407government to carry that out. And they expect the Department408and a trusted workforce onboarded without delay will become a409reality very, very soon. They expect transparency when things410go right and when they go wrong. That is the spirit of this411hearing. There will also be transparency in measuring the412progress or the lack thereof.413    So, if we do our jobs here, all of us, those of us who have414sworn an oath and have the privilege of representing415congressional districts and those of you who are working for416the Agency or other agencies, we will turn plans into417demonstrable results and turn intent into real and lasting418impact. That is the spirit of this hearing today.419    I want to thank, again, Chairman Sessions for being as420dogged as he is in making sure that as a team, we work together421to bring about real and lasting change, otherwise we have422really just failed our jobs and failed our mission.423    And, Mr. Chairman, I would yield back.424    Mr. Sessions. Thank you very much. I appreciate the425gentleman's comments. I know that the people who are witnesses426today and have been a part of this for quite some time, do427recognize that you and I are attempting, along with this428Subcommittee on a bipartisan basis, to move a decisionmaking429and authority. And I concur completely with your comments that430this hearing today will be the beginning of that, that will431increasingly--upbeat tempo will be required on both sides.432    Without objection, I would allow and have Congressman433Walkinshaw of Virginia, a very kind gentleman, who has asked to434be waived onto the Subcommittee for the purpose of questioning435the witnesses at today's Subcommittee hearing, we welcome him436to this Subcommittee hearing.437    I also, just to be nice and fair, because she is my dear438friend from the last couple hundred years, we welcome the439distinguished Chairman [sic] of the Rules Committee, also a440member of this Subcommittee, my dear friend, Virginia Foxx.441Virginia, welcome today. I am delighted that you are here.442    Ms. Foxx. I am trying to be inconspicuous.443    Mr. Sessions. Oh. Well, you did not make that, Virginia.444    For those of you who know, I have told Virginia for the445last 20 years or so, every day, ``I love you, Virginia.'' And446Virginia, I love you, and thank you.447    Ms. Foxx. I love you too.448    Mr. Sessions. Yes.449    I am pleased to welcome our witnesses for today. Mr. Justin450Overbaugh is currently serving as both the Acting Director of451the Defense Counterintelligence and Security Agency, as well as452the Deputy Under Secretary for Defense for Intelligence and453Security. In this important role as Acting DCSA Director, he is454responsible for leading efforts to protect Americans' trusted455workforce, trusted workspaces, and classified information. And456he has a daytime job and a nighttime job, obviously, because457this, as Mr. Mfume noted, is a heavy lift, and we appreciate458him, his professionalism, in taking time to be with us today.459    Then we also welcome Alissa Czyz who serves as the Director460in the Defense Capabilities and Management Team at GAO. In her461role at the Government Accounting Office [sic], she oversees462reviews on the personnel security clearance process, artificial463intelligence, intelligence infrastructure, and DOW's approach464to business transmissions, among other topics. And we have465found her testimony, professionalism, and reliability to not466only want to work with this Subcommittee but in a professional467attribute that is related to her agency. And we welcome her.468So, thank you very much. I look forward to--if I could have469both of you stand and raise your right hand for the purpose of470administering the oath to the witnesses.471    Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witnesses that stand472before us raise their right hand.473    Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony that you474are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing475but the truth, so help you God?476    [Chorus of ayes.]477    Let the record reflect that both the witnesses answered in478the affirmative. Thank you very much. And you may take your479seat.480    We are now going to move to recognizing the witnesses. And481we appreciate you being here. You are not new to this. You know482that we have got a yellow light--a green light, yellow light,483red light. I would ask, as I always do, for the gentleman to484understand that we would like for our witnesses to give us the485information that is necessary. And I am not going to stick to486necessarily a 5-minute rule if either side goes over. But we487are here today to get to the bottom of this, because I think488that this will be a hearing that whoever you hire will want to489know how serious this is and will want to know that it has been490vetted not only by GAO, but the importance to each of these491Members that are here. And so, we are not going to cut you off.492We want you to give full testimony, full hearing, full493articulation on the matter. And I am delighted that you are494here. The gentleman, Mr. Overbaugh, is now recognized.495496            STATEMENT OF HONORABLE JUSTIN OVERBAUGH497498                 DEPUTY UNDER SECRETARY OF WAR499500                 FOR INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY501502          ACTING DIRECTOR, DEFENSE COUNTERINTELLIGENCE503504          AND SECURITY AGENCY, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF WAR505506    Mr. Overbaugh. Good morning, Chairman Sessions, Ranking507Member Mfume, and distinguished Members of the Subcommittee.508Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. It is509an honor and a privilege to represent the over 13,000510civilians, service members, contractors of the Defense511Counterintelligence and Security Agency.512    I was appointed Acting Director of DCSA on November 19,5132025, with a clear mandate from the Under Secretary of War for514Intelligence and Security, Hon. Bradley Hansell, to ensure DCSA515finally delivers the critical security capabilities our Nation516requires. I understand this Committee has received testimony517from previous leaders suggesting the Agency was largely on518track. Respectfully, that assessment was too optimistic. The519truth is, DCSA has been an agency in the midst of an identity520crisis. After it was cobbled together from disparate programs,521DCSA never truly self-actualized or forged a unified culture. I522contend that this foundational issue has directly contributed523to the significant challenges in delivering both Trusted524Workforce 2.0, and the National Background Investigation525Services program on time and on budget.526    It is my assessment that previous Agency leadership, in an527effort to establish a brand, focused more on marketing than on528delivering value and allowing that value to speak for itself.529The Agency's original purpose became blurred, drifting toward530an intelligence-focused entity rather than embracing its vital531security mission.532    Instead of focusing on executing its most important533functions with excellence, the Agency attempted to accumulate534more missions to the point that it failed to achieve its core535purpose. Altogether, the lack of a viable vision, clear536expectations, and leadership accountability from past537Department oversight allowed DCSA to fail.538    Under Secretary Hansell dismissed DCSA leadership because539the transformation required here cannot be incremental. It must540be complete and total. He had little confidence that the541leadership he inherited would have been successful in leading542the change from a sclerotic, compliance-based bureaucracy to a543customer-centric, business-oriented entity the Department of544War and the Nation need DCSA to be.545    While the Under Secretary continues to search to select a546new director with the optimal mix of private sector technology547and government experience, he directed me and the interim DCSA548leadership team to steer toward a business model that mirrors549Secretary Hegseth's approach of eliminating bureaucratic550processes in favor of speed and innovation. In my short time as551Acting Director, I have found what I expected: a dedicated,552talented, and innovative workforce unfortunately shackled by553burdensome processes designed not to empower them, but to554maintain the status quo and sustain layers of management. Our555focus now is on unleashing their potential.556    To that end, we are designing the Agency for purpose,557moving it from a cumbersome bureaucracy to an agile558organization that can serve as a model for the rest of559government. At DCSA, we will build a workforce of the future560founded on a culture of meritocracy, efficiency, creativity,561empowerment, and accountability that enables timely, risk-562informed decisions.563    DCSA's struggles to deliver NBIS and implement Trusted564Workforce 2.0 are but symptoms of the deeper cultural problems565I have outlined. These two efforts are not merely programs.566They are the backbone of our national security personnel567vetting enterprise. Their delivery is nonnegotiable.568    While the Government Accountability Office rightly noted569recent progress on the NBIS program's cost and schedule570estimates, we must be honest that this progress is fragile.571Without the cultural and structural reforms we are now572implementing, technical gains alone will not secure success.573Absent this transformation and a refocus on its core mission,574DCSA would surely continue to fail to meet its targets for NBIS575development and deployment. We look forward to partnering with576GAO to give us an objective look at the Agency as we continue577to make reforms.578    Under Secretary Hansell and I share as a top priority the579delivery and development of NBIS by Fiscal Year 2028. He and I580are aided in this task by the Under Secretary of War for581Acquisition and Sustainment, Hon. Mike Duffey, who has582designated NBIS as an acquisition category 1 special interest583program, subjecting it to the highest level of scrutiny.584    At DCSA, we are overhauling our governance, acquisition585strategy, and partnership with industry to ensure every586decision serves the core mission. Through the Trusted Workforce587Implementation group, we work to validate the policy588requirements and make sure that they are matured through the589executive agents and are translated into real-world590capabilities delivered by NBIS.591    These goals are to get people to work faster, eliminate592waste, optimize risk management, and improve the experience for593our government customers.594    While the full transition to Trusted Workforce 2.0 and NBIS595will be complete by Fiscal Year 2028, we are accelerating the596development of key capabilities now, including adjudicative597improvements for public trust cases, expanded use of interim598secret clearances, and broader application of vetting services599features.600    Even with the renewed vision, this will not be easy. NBIS601is a massive undertaking intended to replace deeply entrenched602legacy systems across the Federal Government. Getting this603right is as important as getting it done quickly. DCSA now has604the appropriate oversight, a clear mandate for change, and a605leadership team committed to transparency within the606Department, with partners in the interagency, industry, and607other stakeholders, and with you here in Congress.608    The exceptional team at DCSA is the driving force that will609make this transformation possible. My commitment to you is that610I will continue to foster a culture of innovation and611accountability that empowers them and that I will maintain612oversight in my role as Deputy Under Secretary for Intelligence613and Security.614    We appreciate Congress' engagement on this critical issue,615and look forward to demonstrating, through our actions and616results, that DCSA is on a new and better path. Thank you, and617I look forward to addressing your questions.618    Mr. Sessions. Thank you very much.619    The gentlewoman is now recognized.620621                  STATEMENT OF MS. ALISSA CZYZ622623         DIRECTOR, DEFENSE CAPABILITIES AND MANAGEMENT624625             U.S. GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE626627    Ms. Czyz. Chairman Sessions, Ranking Member Mfume, and628Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to629testify again on GAO's work on personnel vetting, and630specifically the National Background Investigation Services631system, or NBIS for short.632    As you know, the U.S. Government relies on over four633million personnel with security clearances to protect our634Nation. Personnel vetting helps ensure a trusted workforce, but635the government has struggled with managing this process for636years. This issue has been on GAO's high-risk list since 2018,637due in part to challenges with IT systems. Reform is urgently638needed. The Federal Government is taking too long to grant639security clearances to essential personnel. For example, it640takes over 200 days to grant a top-secret clearance. This is 80641percent longer than the government's goal.642    As you know, after a massive cybersecurity breach of OPM's643systems in 2015, the President tasked DOD with building a new644IT system to manage personnel vetting. The Department began645developing NBIS in 2016. My statement today focuses on the646Department's progress with NBIS and what actions are still647needed to ensure its success and achieve personnel vetting648reform.649    First, the good news: DCSA has made progress addressing our650recommendations. It now has a reliable cost estimate for NBIS651for the first time ever. A reliable estimate should help the652program better manage expenses, avoid unexpected increases, and653promote transparency. However, the government is years late in654delivering NBIS. This failure happened in part because DCSA had655not developed a reliable schedule for the system as we first656recommended several years ago. DOD had originally planned for657NBIS to be fully functional in 2019 and has changed its658deadline several times since then. In 2024, DCSA paused NBIS659development while it drafted a recovery plan. Just last summer,660the Department began development again. DCSA now projects it661will finish NBIS development in 2027, or Fiscal Year 2028,662according to DCSA's statement. This is nearly a decade after663its original goal.664    The latest NBIS schedule shows some improvements in key665areas, but overall, we find that it is still not reliable,666putting NBIS at risk of further delays.667    Notably, DCSA has not done a risk analysis and thus cannot668determine where slippage is most likely to occur. Without669implementing this best practice, it cannot effectively target670actions to milestones that are at the most risk. We are making671new recommendations in our written statement today for DCSA to672address these and other deficiencies.673    Having a reliable schedule is a basic program management674principle. We agree with Mr. Overbaugh, DCSA needs to get this675right given the program's history of missed milestones.676    Further, while DCSA has a reliable cost estimate for NBIS677now, delays have caused the price tag to balloon. The678Department has already spent at least $2.4 billion developing679new NBIS systems and maintaining OPM's legacy systems. It now680projects spending an additional $2.2 billion to finish NBIS,681bringing the total cost to the taxpayer to about $4.6 billion.682This is a 100 percent increase over DCSA's previous683projections.684    Finally, strong and sustained leadership is critically685important, especially with high-risk government programs like686this one. When I last testified, NBIS had been failing. Since687then, DCSA has taken some important actions to try to get688things on track, but shortcomings still persist. This, at a689time when DCSA does not have a permanent director, and the time690it takes to get a security clearance continues to far exceed691goals.692    Strong leadership and oversight, like the important work693this Subcommittee is doing, are essential for the program to694continue to make improvements and ultimately deliver what it695has promised. Simply put, personnel vetting reform has the696potential to better protect our country. But the IT must be in697place for this to happen.698    Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ranking Member, and Members of the699Subcommittee, thank you for your time. I look forward to your700questions.701    Mr. Sessions. Thank you very much. Detailed information702about what needs to be accomplished, I think, is very clear703from your constant reports, and I appreciate that.704    We now move to our Members, and I will move to the705distinguished gentlewoman from North Carolina, the gentlewoman,706the Chairwoman of the Rules Committee, Ms. Foxx.707    Ms. Foxx. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.708    No one put in my notes that I should be very concerned709about this, but I am, along with all of you. What our witnesses710have said today is very, very troubling. But let me say, last711fall, the Subcommittee was supposed to hear from DCSA Director712Cattler shortly before he left Federal service. While I713appreciate Mr. Overbaugh's attendance here today as Acting714Director, I am disappointed there is still no permanent715replacement for Director Cattler. As Ms. Czyz just said, steady716leadership is important for continuity and accountability. The717National Background Investigation Service needs to become718operational. Having a permanent director at NCSA would send a719strong message that DOD is serious about the issue.720    Can you elaborate, Mr. Overbaugh, on how delays in the721implementation of NBIS impacts other Federal agencies that rely722on timely clearances?723    Mr. Overbaugh. Representative Foxx, I can. It is very clear724to me that the entire Federal Government and all the agencies725and partners that rely on DCSA to deliver Trusted Workforce 2.0726are impacted when employees cannot get to work in a timely and727efficient manner.728    Ms. Foxx. Well, as a followup, based on DCSA's recent729review of NBIS implementation, what actions are you and others730taking to get it back on track? We have just heard it is going731to cost an additional $2.2 billion, and be delayed to 2027,7322028. What in the world are you all doing?733    Mr. Overbaugh. That is the exact question that I asked,734Representative Foxx, when I took over the Agency in November. I735can tell you that our teammates at DCSA have done a fantastic736job on establishing the technology required with NBIS to ensure737that we can get to Trusted Workforce 2.0. What the Agency had738failed to do, however, in the past, was match emerging739requirements, the business or the mission side, if you will,740with that technology. As a result of that identified failure,741the Trusted Workforce Integration Group was stood up. That742brought together our technology specialists along with our743operations and mission side.744    Together, they produced, over the last couple months, a key745set of milestones that we can use to judge DCSA's performance746on delivering Trusted Workforce 2.0 moving forward. And those747milestones are laid out in the PAC principle, the Performance748Accountability Council's Fiscal Year 2026 implementation749strategy.750    Now, this is a great step forward, and it gives us751something that we can sink our teeth into to hold ourselves752accountable for progress. It is not complete. We need to do753more here. We need to use these milestones to break down--754almost a complete work breakdown structure so we are then able755to identify the things that our GAO partners have told us are756critically important; namely, critical paths and the757identification of risks.758    That is forthcoming. We are looking forward to producing759that document in March, April timeframe, and would certainly760look forward in future interactions with this body to share the761work that we have done there.762    Ms. Foxx. And the Chairman mentioned the issue of763transparency and the need for that. Are you committing that the764reports and the progress are all going to be transparent?765    Mr. Overbaugh. Without question.766    Ms. Foxx. Thank you.767    Ms. Czyz, in the Committee's 2024 hearing, you raised768concerns about cybersecurity privacy protections. Has DCSA769taken concrete steps to mitigate those risks, and have you seen770evidence these steps are effective?771    Ms. Czyz. Yes. DCSA has taken swift action to address our772recommendations. At the time of our last hearing, we put out a773report with 13 recommendations, mostly focused on the774management of cybersecurity, making sure that there is current775guidance and effective oversight. The previous DCSA Director,776Director Cattler, made it a priority to implement all of those777recommendations within one year, which is very fast for a GAO778report to have all recommendations closed in one year, so we779think that that is a very positive efforts.780    DCSA does need to remain very, very vigilant on this. This781is the whole reason that the Department has a responsibility782for personnel vetting because of that cybersecurity breach in7832015 that compromised, as the Chairman mentioned, data on over78422 million Federal employees and contractors. We do have work785that is not available in the public setting to discuss, looking786more specifically at NBIS and testing of cybersecurity controls787and issued a recent report in December on that, which we have788discussed with DCSA. But we are confident that they are taking789it seriously, yes.790    Ms. Foxx. Thank you very much. And thank you, Mr. Chairman,791for recognizing me. I yield back.792    Mr. Sessions. The gentlewoman yields back her time. Thank793you very much. The gentleman, Mr. Mfume, is recognized.794    Mr. Mfume. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to yield to the795gentleman from Virginia, Mr. Walkinshaw, who has waived onto796the Committee, and I will pick up with my questions at some797other point in the hearing. Mr. Walkinshaw.798    Mr. Walkinshaw. Thank you. I thank the Ranking Member and799Mr. Chairman, thank you for having me today, and to our800witnesses for being here.801    Mr. Overbaugh, as you laid out in your testimony, you have802many responsibilities in your role as Deputy Under Secretary803for Intelligence and Security. I know that in your role you804serve as Acting Director of DCSA, as we are discussing today.805You oversee Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), National806Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA), the National807Reconnaissance Office (NRO), the National Security Agency808(NSA). You serve as an advisor to the Under Secretary of809Defense on intelligence-related matters. And given all of that,810I guess my question for you is why should the Committee and the811American people have confidence that you can manage this812multibillion-dollar critical modernization while performing813your many other duties, including safeguarding our Nation's814secrets from adversaries, ensuring proper vetting of815individuals with access to classified information, and, as I816noted, acting as an advisor to the Under Secretary?817    Mr. Overbaugh. Representative Walkinshaw, I appreciate that818question very much. And the short answer is, I am surrounded by819a fantastic group of teammates who are assisting me in this820endeavor. I have down at DCSA as Acting Deputy Director, Ms.821Tara Jones, who also comes from our office at the Under822Secretary of War for Intelligence and Security. In addition, we823have Acting Chief of Staff Colonel Brooke Carr. Our team down824there--and they are down there on a permanent basis to assist825me in leading that organization. And I have fantastic teammates826as well up in my office in the Pentagon.827    And so, while I understand from an external perspective it828looks like we are stretched thin, and in all honesty, there are829times when it feels like it. But I will tell you that the830passion that we have as a group of teammates to get this task831right, energizes all of us and the entire team. And, quite832honestly, it is an honor and a blessing to be able to do this.833    Mr. Walkinshaw. Thank you.834    In a recent January 22, 2026, briefing with Committee staff835here, I think it is accurate that you said you intended to836eliminate what you have called inefficiencies within DCSA and837suggested--and you can correct me if this is wrong--that you838felt there is a need to eliminate positions at the Agency. So,839are you planning to reduce the workforce at DCSA? And if so,840how will you ensure that those cuts to the workforce do not841further derail this critical modernization?842    Mr. Overbaugh. I think DCSA faces a challenge,843Representative, that the entire government faces and, quite844frankly, our society writ large faces. And that is the impact845that technology is having and is going to have on the way that846we work moving forward.847    DCSA faces this dynamic quite acutely with our848responsibility to implement NBIS and Trusted Workforce 2.0. I849cannot say at this time exactly what the workforce of the850future at DCSA looks like exactly, but I know that we have an851obligation to empower our teammates to ensure that they can be852as effective as humanly possible in the future of work.853    Mr. Walkinshaw. So, you do not have any immediate plans to854reduce the workforce short-or medium-term?855    Mr. Overbaugh. Quite the contrary, Representative856Walkinshaw. We are constantly looking at the DCSA organization857and determining where we can find efficiencies. I have no858implementable plans at this time, but it is something that we859will be looking at moving forward.860    Mr. Walkinshaw. Okay. One of the things I understand this861Committee has asked for previously is an organizational chart862for your staffing and any proposed changes. Is that something863you can commit to providing to us?864    Mr. Overbaugh. I would absolutely be happy to provide that865to you once we have a clear understanding of the direction that866we think we need to go in.867    Mr. Walkinshaw. Okay. Thank you.868    Mr. Overbaugh, DCSA's job, as you know, is to vet cleared869personnel and ultimately ensure the protection of classified870U.S. Government information. It is a cornerstone of our871national security. I appreciate the passion that you have for872the work and that your teammates have. I think I share the873concerns on the dais here that the mandate is far too large and874critical to function indefinitely under an acting director no875matter how passionate. We need a director focused on its876counterintelligence mission who has the skills and the877bandwidth. I do not question that you have the skills. I878question whether you have the bandwidth to keep this project879moving forward. I hope you can commit to providing this880Committee with a hiring plan and criteria for a new director881promptly.882    Thank you. And I yield back.883    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time. Thank you884very much. I have been approached by several Members who plan885to be in attendance today. I would move next to the gentleman,886Mr. Mfume, for any time he would choose.887    Mr. Mfume. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.888    Let me just be deliberately redundant for a quick second.889NBIS, and the NBIS project, is, as you have heard repeatedly890today, ten years behind schedule and already billions and891billions over budget. So, I would like to know--and by the way,892this keeps me up at night because America's secrets are at risk893the longer we do not do what we ought to do here. And the894Russians and the Chinese who can tune into C-SPAN whenever they895want to, to be assured that we are behind, will look at what we896are doing and, year after year after year, get emboldened897because we are so transparent about why and when we expect to898have this completed.899    So, Mr. Overbaugh, when you look, as you have been doing900since November when you came on board, at cost overruns, which901ones are the most apparent to you?902    Mr. Overbaugh. Representative--or, excuse me--Ranking903Member Mfume, to me, the most alerting is the overall amount of904money that we have spent so far writ large, the $2.4 billion,905and not delivering the capabilities that we promised over time906to the American people.907    It is--there are many details within that. The failure to,908as I mentioned earlier, to match up the operations and business909side with the technical side, there are redundancies and910inefficiencies in there. But I think that that number overall,911the $2.4 million--correction--billion, is inexcusable and one912of the things that drives me and the team on a daily basis to913fix the things in the past that we have not done well so that914we can deliver for the American people.915    Mr. Mfume. Do you think your predecessor felt the same way?916Was he driven the same way?917    Mr. Overbaugh. I will not speak to the intent or what was918going on inside the minds or hearts of any of my predecessors.919I know that the organization today sits ready, and they are920excited about delivering for the American people.921    Mr. Mfume. Well, and I understand and I appreciate it, but922you have to realize what it is like to sit here year after year923after year after year and be told the same thing, that it is924getting better, the organization understands, we have got the925right path, we are going to be transparent. And in that926process, contractor after contractor is billing the U.S.927Government for services that I assume are never fully completed928within that caveat saying we could not do this, we will not do929this, or we need more money for that. That is very, very930disturbing, and it is not your fault. I am just giving you the931history of how we got to this point and why it is so very932disturbing to us.933    You have heard the term, ``fat rats.'' Well, a lot of them934are making out with a lot of money and not providing the kind935of service that they are being contracted for and paid for. And936Ms. Czyz, if I could just ask you the same question. What are937some identifiable cost overruns that repeatedly, year after938year, GAO looks at, identifies, and points out?939    Ms. Czyz. Yes. In fact, our previous analysis showed that940DCSA did not have a reliable cost estimate for NBIS. It was not941accurate. It was not comprehensive. It was not credible and it942was not well-documented. So, we cannot tell you where the943problems were. It was across the entire estimate. It could not944be relied upon for planning.945    Now they have taken important steps including conducting an946independent cost estimate to get a better handle on cost, so we947are at a better place now. That estimate needs to be updated948annually. And so, I advise the Subcommittee to stay on top of949DCSA, as we will, to make sure that that is updated annually950with actual costs, but they are better positioned now.951    Unfortunately, and if I can kind of veer off a little bit,952earlier on in the program, I think one of the key shortcomings953was a lack of oversight, right? So, DCSA was really policing954itself in its actions. No one broader in the Department was955taking a look at what DCSA was doing as NBIS was going off the956rails. There were some steps put in place for Intelligence and957Security (I&S), where Mr. Overbaugh is from, to be now the958program sponsor, and then even higher within the Department to959have milestone decision authority.960    There were some other mechanisms put in place, a961requirements board, for example, that is supposed to meet962quarterly, and some other reporting requirements. Where we do963still have concerns, is some of these oversight mechanisms are964great that they are in place but we are not actually seeing965them working as they are supposed to be working. So, that966requirements board that I just mentioned is supposed to meet967quarterly. We think it met last Friday, but before then, had968only met in June, right? So, maybe once a year.969    So, it is good to put those mechanisms in place, but you970have to exercise the oversight as well too. So, that is971something that we will be taking a look at as the program moves972on, making sure that oversight is actually working.973    Mr. Mfume. And what would GAO immediately recommend be done974as you look at where we are in this process? Notwithstanding975the things you just mentioned.976    Ms. Czyz. Right. I think we have been on record for years977that you really cannot plan effectively without having a978reliable schedule for the NBIS program. Milestones have shifted979for years. We are decades--it is a decade-long program now.980Costs have increased 100 percent. We still do not have a981reliable schedule. So, it is great that we are mirroring that982policy with milestones, but our recent analysis showed that983almost half, 46 percent, of milestones in the Trusted Workforce9842.0 strategy that are NBIS-related have slipped over the past985nine months. 46 percent because of NBIS delays, right?986    So, that is something that has got to be addressed right987away. We have new recommendations, kind of to target in on what988needs to be done for a schedule. And it is great that Mr.989Overbaugh is very focused on this. But this is something that990we have been talking about for years. We talked about at the991last hearing as well. Without getting this in place, the992program still is at risk of slippage going forward and then993increased cost to the taxpayer.994    Mr. Mfume. And, Mr. Overbaugh, I know you have been there995since November, but do you have some semblance of a schedule, a996sketch, an outline--are you talking directly to GAO to figure997out how and when that ought to be completed?998    Mr. Overbaugh. Ranking Member Mfume, the schedule has yet999to be developed, and that is one of the great things that we1000have discovered through our partnership with GAO. And as a1001reminder, as we dig down into the milestones that the TWIG1002recently established, we will be producing that schedule. That1003is the document that I hope to bring back to this body in the1004March and April timeframe.1005    I do want to push back on one thing that you said earlier.1006You mentioned that it is not my fault. I just want to give you1007the confidence, sir, as I am Acting Director, everything that1008this organization does or fails to do is now my responsibility.1009We do take on the fact that the previous failures are now our1010responsibility. And we own them. And that is part of the1011cultural change that we are trying to instantiate at DCSA.1012    Mr. Mfume. Well, that is good to know and it is good to1013hear, but it really was not your fault because you were not1014there. But I commend you for owning them.1015    So, are you saying to the Chairman and Members of the1016Committee that by late March or early April, this schedule will1017be in place? We can call another hearing and talk about it?1018    Mr. Overbaugh. What our team is attempting to produce by1019March, April timeframe is a business operationalization1020synchronization schedule. That is our attempt to get at the1021critical paths and the risks that GAO has rightly pointed out1022that we continue to lack. Once we have that established, I am1023happy to bring that product back. We have, as a goal, to1024establish that by the March and April timeframe.1025    Mr. Mfume. And just one other question. Are you interacting1026with GAO to make sure what you produce is exactly what they1027have identified?1028    Mr. Overbaugh. We will be moving forward. I had the1029opportunity to meet Ms. Czyz the other day in preparation for1030this hearing, and we agreed that we would interact on a1031quarterly basis moving forward. And we look forward to them1032helping us provide an objective look at our organization as we1033try and implement the change.1034    Mr. Mfume. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1035    Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir. We will move to the distinguished1036gentleman from Tennessee. You are recognized.1037    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1038    One of the things I like about your Chairmanship and your1039relationship with our Ranking Member--I always dig his line of1040questioning. And sometimes, like myself, it takes me a little1041longer than 5 minutes, and I appreciate you allowing us to do1042that.1043    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman is recognized. And the1044gentleman does understand from his experience in dealing with1045Mr. Mfume and myself, I would like for you to take the time1046that is necessary to express yourself, as well our witnesses,1047to get everything out. And the gentleman is now recognized.1048    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1049    Ma'am, your last name is Czyz? Is that how you pronounce1050it?1051    Ms. Czyz. That is correct, yes.1052    Mr. Burchett. Well, Burchett. Nobody gets that right1053either. I was on some show this week, and I said it is birch1054like the tree and ``ett'' like I just ett breakfast. And they1055all laughed. And my wife got on me and said, ``No, it is not1056Burchett. It is Burchett.'' It is Burchett. You know? I mean,1057they can never get it right, so anyway. Thank you.1058    Since 2024, how has the Defense Counterintelligence and1059Security Agency, the DCSA, progress in addressing the NBIS1060high-risk areas like cybersecurity, and what issues remain?1061    Ms. Czyz. So, since 2024, DCSA has made significant1062progress addressing cybersecurity issues with NBIS. We had1063issued a report in 2024 really focused on the management and1064lack of management attention on cybersecurity. We made 131065recommendations at that time. The DCSA leadership took swift1066action and implemented all of those recommendations.1067    Mr. Burchett. Did you say they implemented all of those?1068    Ms. Czyz. They implemented all 13 recommendations from our10692024 report on cybersecurity, yes.1070    Mr. Burchett. Which of those are you most concerned about1071moving forward?1072    Ms. Czyz. Right. So, we were very concerned that there was1073just a lack of management oversight of cybersecurity in1074general. They were using outdated guidance. There were issues1075with privacy controls. There were folks that did not have the1076necessary training to use the system.1077    So, those were some issues that we pointed out, and they1078did take immediate action, addressed all of those1079recommendations in a very fast timeframe for addressing GAO1080recommendations.1081    As I mentioned earlier, we do have a nonpublic report that1082we did produce in December on cybersecurity, too, looking at1083testing of cybersecurity controls.1084    So, it is a topic that we stay on, we know DCSA is taking1085seriously. But the entire reason that the department has a1086responsibility for the IT system was because of the1087cybersecurity breach in 2015 of OPM systems, so it is1088critically important to get that right.1089    Mr. Burchett. OPM means?1090    Ms. Czyz. The Office of Personnel Management, who had1091previous responsibility.1092    Mr. Burchett. In my office, we do not use initials because1093I am 61 and it kind of fills up my brain.1094    Ms. Czyz. Right. The Office of Personnel Management had1095previously had responsibility for personnel vetting, but that1096moved after that cybersecurity breach.1097    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, ma'am.1098    Ms. Czyz. Sure.1099    Mr. Burchett. When I get back to the office, I am going to1100have to ask some of my young people exactly what you just told1101me. So, thank you.1102    Sir, let me ask you a question. And your name is Overbaugh.1103I believe I can get that one right. Thank you, brother.1104    Since you were appointed, what steps have you taken to1105address the cultural issues identified? I think you made them1106in your opening statement.1107    Mr. Overbaugh. Representative Burchett, thank you for the1108opportunity to chat with you today.1109    There have been a couple things that we have done from a1110cultural perspective.1111    The first thing was we looked at leadership across the1112organization, and we identified where we had individuals who1113were stymieing progress because they were too comfortable with1114the status quo, and we made some changes in that regard.1115    The second thing that we have done is myself and Ms. Jones1116have traveled to a number of the different locations where our1117DCSA colleagues and teammates reside. We have over 1631118different locations across the United States. And we have begun1119to hear from folks who work on the front line across our agency1120about the types of things that we can do at a leadership level1121to change the culture.1122    Ultimately, the steps that we are taking are designed1123toward transforming it from a reactive to a proactive1124organization, from a risk-based or--correction--from a fear-1125based culture to one that looks for opportunities to continue1126to shore up security for the American people.1127    Mr. Burchett. This is not in my notes, but it jogged a1128memory of encrypted messages. They always, well, they cannot1129get into this, it is encrypted, and then there is some kid in a1130garage in southern California who has figured out how to do it1131in about 15 minutes.1132    Is there anything truly encrypted, in your opinion?1133    Mr. Overbaugh. Representative Burchett, we could go into1134greater detail on that particular topic, but not necessarily in1135this forum. And I would want to bring back to you, from my role1136in I&S, a more fulsome picture on that perhaps in a closed1137setting in the future.1138    Mr. Burchett. Can I ask one more question, Mr. Chairman? I1139have run over just a minute.1140    Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir.1141    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, brother.1142    What do you think--what is your all's plan on getting1143everything on track for the next three years? Do you have a1144plan? I mean, I do not want you to disclose any secrets, but do1145you feel like you can obtain those objectives?1146    Mr. Overbaugh. Yes, I do believe that we can attain the1147objectives, and the plan relies on a couple parts.1148    First, going back to what our GAO colleagues have talked1149with us about, we will and we must get our hands around a1150detailed schedule that enables the Agency itself to hold itself1151accountable and for our oversight partners to hold us1152accountable.1153    That is a nonnegotiable. We will achieve that in the coming1154months. And I very much look forward to coming back, either as1155Acting Director or in my oversight role in I&S, to report to1156you and your colleagues about the progress that we have made1157there.1158    In addition, though, we do have to change the culture of1159the organization, like I talked about earlier. We have to be1160adaptable, we have to be flexible, and we have to take on an1161attitude that our primary responsibility is to provide1162decisionmakers with risk-informed information so that they can1163make assessments about the trustworthiness of their workforce.1164    Mr. Burchett. Thank you.1165    Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you again for letting me1166go over. I wish more committees would allow us to do this.1167    And I appreciate the relationship that you have with the1168Ranking Member, because I think more committees could probably1169fashion a little bit more of their attitude toward us lower-1170level Members if they would follow your two leads.1171    So, thank you all.1172    Mr. Sessions. I thank the gentleman from Tennessee and will1173tell him that Mr. Mfume and I intend to maintain this1174relationship for the benefit of not only Members, but also the1175American people.1176    Mr. Burchett. Mr. Chairman, I would also like to say, I1177tend to like Mr. Mfume more than I like you. And I just want to1178say that for the record. Keep that off the record, though.1179    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman is not recognized for more1180time. In fact, Tim, it is with great respect that you offer1181that feedback, because Mr. Mfume, in my opinion, is an1182outstanding example of collegiality and something which I1183think, as Mr. Burchett noticed, is desperately in need here on1184a regular basis. And so, thank you very much.1185    I will now yield myself such time as I may consume.1186    The opportunity to have both of you here with what I1187consider to be outstanding or sterling insight and ability to1188accept, as I say--you are accepting the role, Mr. Overbaugh,1189and the responsibility and the good things and the bad things.1190    Ms. Czyz, part of what we are talking about today, we do1191not always get down to brass tacks, but what Mr. Overbaugh has1192spoken about is his analysis--which I do accept, appreciate,1193and respect--about how professional they are, about their1194ability to do their work.1195    He did, comma, suggest that there are some things that1196still need more tinkering with, more reliability.1197    Do you get into those management, personnel type things of1198frailties of outcomes that he spoke about?1199    Ms. Czyz. I would say that the progress within this is very1200recent, and so it is fragile. Sustained leadership attention is1201critical for the program to continue to make the improvements1202that it has done recently and then continue to implement the1203recommendations that GAO has made for several years to have a1204schedule, to make sure the oversight mechanisms are in place,1205to marry up those milestones with Trusted Workforce 2.0, so we1206are not seeing continued slippage down the road.1207    Mr. Sessions. Okay.1208    Ms. Czyz. So, it is important to not take--this is great1209that there is some progress, but I would agree with Mr.1210Overbaugh, it is recent and it is fragile if we do not have the1211leadership and oversight mechanisms in place.1212    Mr. Sessions. Mr. Overbaugh, the discussions, without1213naming names, but do you find that there are people within the1214organization who are not interested in its success, in1215mastering the timeframes and allowing slippage, that they were1216seemingly happy with their performance that you have described?1217    Why did this even slip months? And were those people spoken1218to realistically or simply exited from the organization?1219    Mr. Overbaugh. Chairman Sessions, I will tell you that 99.91220percent of the workforce today is absolutely passionate and1221capable for the task that we have in front of us.1222    I did find some individuals who embody the culture of1223wanting to maintain the status quo. Where we find those1224individuals, we will take the opportunity to give them a chance1225to serve in another capacity.1226    But for DCSA moving forward, we need a team that is 1001227percent dedicated to the mission, that understands that we have1228a critical mission, and that we achieve that mission through1229the hard-earned dollars of the American taxpayer.1230    Mr. Sessions. Okay. Let us stay on this pathway, please.1231    You mentioned that you have offices, different people in1232160-some different locations. Do you have metrics on them? And1233are they part of the slippage? Or are we talking about systems1234that they enter data into that then talk to people looking for1235more back-and-forth to then agree to that and then move? Is it1236system oriented or do you have a metric that determined it was1237people also?1238    Mr. Overbaugh. One of the things I recognize that we need1239at DCSA is a way to visualize the performance of our entire1240organization succinctly and clearly. We do not have that today.1241That is one of the things that I am working on internally to1242the organization, to be able to see, for example, from cradle1243to grave, how our investigative processes are going.1244    We have some of that picture right now and the team does a1245very good job of providing that data, but we can do much1246better. It will enable us to find those areas in the funnel1247where we have clogs or where we have obstacles that as leaders1248we can first identify how we can remove those obstacles for our1249teammates. And if it ends up being a personnel challenge, we1250can address that as well.1251    Mr. Sessions. So, what have you found?1252    Mr. Overbaugh. As it relates to what in particular, Mr.1253Chairman?1254    Mr. Sessions. The delay of your 160 different offices. You1255seemingly would have an idea that you have a problem or do not1256have a problem or can set a standard that seemingly could be1257established rather quickly if that is the issue.1258    Once again, it is hard for me to know if that is the1259issue--people-oriented responses, decisionmaking, moving things1260along--or whether it is correspondingly in the processes of1261systems that then do not effectively provide the information to1262decisionmaking.1263    Ms. Czyz, will you answer that?1264    Ms. Czyz. Our work has found that it has mostly been in the1265lack of basic program management principles. Again, and not1266having a reliable schedule for the program.1267    We do know that DCSA has taken some efforts even before Mr.1268Overbaugh----1269    Mr. Sessions. So, you are worried about headquarters'1270decisionmaking for fixing the systems that people operate1271within.1272    I was asking him--and we will get here--the people who do1273the work and then that process, is it then the systems that are1274causing the delays?1275    And so, I want to then focus on the 160 offices that you1276are evaluating and yet the systems or tools by which they have1277to operate, where are the issues that you found?1278    And there could be some of both. But this is where then I1279want to come to Ms. Czyz and say you have and GAO has a broader1280viewpoint than just this organization on how to effectively1281deal with management systems and structures and try and work1282with them to find how to update which comes first, which vendor1283comes first, which system needs updating, which system needs1284new standards or procedures.1285    So, let me go back and have you both--feel free, once1286again, we are trying to get to the bottom of this.1287    You went out and visited some offices and you had an1288opportunity, which is very professionally oriented and good.1289What did you find out there?1290    Mr. Overbaugh. I found both, Mr. Chairman, quite frankly. I1291found a dedicated workforce but one that suffered from lack of1292our technology integration and one that also, unfortunately, at1293some areas in management, was too oriented toward the status1294quo.1295    That is why the recommendations that the GAO has made to us1296about tools like the critical path and the risk schedule are so1297important, because metrics will drive behavior within the1298organization.1299    Once we have that clearer picture, once we have those1300metrics, we are going to be able to drive that cultural1301behavioral change in a much more effective manner.1302    But the short answer to your question, Mr. Chairman, was I1303found both.1304    Mr. Sessions. Okay. So, in other words, when you take on a1305particular issue, subject, a person, and you have got a request1306that may have been sitting there for a long time, you have then1307identified that we need certain data, certain information,1308processing of their form, verifying the data and information,1309touching base where an investigator will move forward, getting1310that investigator's recommendation, looking at feedback that1311others provided, and then sifting through that, and then1312placing that into some sort of system where that is then vetted1313properly.1314    That is people oriented. No, no, it is really system, too,1315because if you have got a system problem, they are not able to1316effectively do that.1317    Is that what you also have, a system problem?1318    Mr. Overbaugh. In the sense--if I understand your concern--1319--1320    Mr. Sessions. You put your data in something that would be1321reviewed by--you decide how many--but several people. It is not1322just a one-person process. You have got an investigator that1323goes out and they put their data and information.1324    Is that a problem of getting that data and information? We1325are dissecting this now in this Subcommittee. Is that a1326problem? Because it seems like that may be part of your daytime1327job.1328    Mr. Overbaugh. Yes, Chairman Sessions. And what I would say1329is that is--the problem that you are highlighting is the exact1330reason why we are--why it is so important that we get in this1331online so that we are able to achieve the goals laid out in1332Trusted Workforce 2.0. As it stands right now, from a system1333standpoint, we are using old and antiquated technology, I think1334developed in the 1980s, in order to do the task of personnel1335vetting.1336    Mr. Sessions. And we hear that, and that is that $2.51337billion, and then the need to update it or make it work, $2.51338billion.1339    My point is, are you looking for the director to cut1340through that and say, ``We are going to do this until we get1341that done in ten years''?1342    I am worried about the ten years. I mean, you may not have1343what you are asking for, for ten more years. And I am asking1344you, how are we going to do that?1345    And then looking at Ms. Czyz and say, doesn't the GAO--I1346think the answer is yes--doesn't the GAO have some1347recommendation of which one of these systems may need to1348spend--I do not know whether it is $600 million, I do not know1349what it is--to update it to make something happen, if not a1350relationship that you have identified to getting data quicker1351and faster, even though it is not the NBIS delivery. It is an1352interim step.1353    Somebody has got to do that. We cannot wait ten years. Mr.1354Mfume and I will not wait ten years. Will you? That answer is1355no.1356    I know you are very glib at understanding and nimble at1357understanding this, but I still have not heard back, ``Okay, we1358got a problem here, we know we have got to fix that. We got1359good people, but this system, this one right here, has to be1360updated for these other factors to work.''1361    And then Ms. Czyz to be able to say, ``Yes, I think that is1362right, that we have got to do this, this one first, this one1363second, this one third over the next year to better the lot1364where we are.''1365    That is what I am looking for. I think that is what Mr.1366Mfume and I are looking for, not, ``Well, we are going to wait1367ten years. Well, we have got good people, but we have got a1368systems problem.''1369    What the heck are we doing to work together to say we are1370going to update this one thing, which is material to the work1371that has got to be done. I do not want something out there1372done. I want something in here.1373    I have, unfortunately, been around enough in life where I1374have had to wait on computer systems, but we did--we understood1375when that was going to happen.1376    So, get ready for this next round when you are back. I want1377to know what systems. I do not need to know the vendor, you do1378not need to do a flow chart, but that you have taken the five1379or four most critical systems, and they are online, you are1380with standards and procedures and understanding about what they1381are supposed to do, and go get that darn thing done. I mean, we1382are not looking at paint drying and we are not going to do1383that.1384    Likewise, I do not think Mr. Mfume and I want to manage1385your job, either one of you. We want to provide oversight. We1386want to make sure, as you talked about, and one of the best1387things you said today was we got to get a person with the1388bandwidth, the bandwidth not to sit back and say, ``I cannot1389get my job done because my boss is always gone.''1390    Clear lines of authority, delegation authority, clear lines1391of responsibility, timeframes that are professionally1392established to be met, not to slip. And I just think that this1393has got to be done.1394    Ms. Czyz, can you make sense of what I have said?1395    Ms. Czyz. Yes.1396    Mr. Sessions. Do you have the desire and ability to1397understand the systems that if he talked to you or you would1398know where they are, what the problem is, and provided feedback1399back to them to say, ``We think this system is the first that1400needs to be updated,'' not waiting for NBIS? This is a backlog1401or a clog or a bottleneck in the system.1402    Do you think you have that level of detail?1403    Ms. Czyz. So, those are what the recommendations we have1404made in our written statement go toward, the sequencing of1405events.1406    Mr. Sessions. Sequencing.1407    Ms. Czyz. That was our whole point here, that the NBIS1408program has been focused on an agile program, very focused on1409near-term gains, that they are not looking at, if a milestone1410slips here, what is the effect of it down the road, right?1411    And that is what Mr. Overbaugh I believe wants, that1412visibility, and talked about having that visibility for him at1413the leadership level, too, so he can take action.1414    But he does not have that information right now because the1415NBIS program does not have a schedule set up to be able to1416sequence those events, to be able to identify risks, and then1417to be able to take action targeted toward those systems.1418    Mr. Sessions. Then how can we say it is going to be done in1419ten years? How can you say you have got a schedule in ten years1420yet if you do not have that schedule?1421    Mr. Overbaugh. Well, Chairman Sessions, we do not have ten1422years. We have a couple years. And we are charged with1423delivering Trusted Workforce 2.0 by Fiscal Year 2028.1424    Mr. Sessions. Right.1425    Mr. Overbaugh. And I am quite confident that we can.1426    To address what I think one of the things that you are1427talking about is this. Aside from NBIS, in our current1428procedures, do we have the ability to generate trust decisions1429for our workforce? And the answer to that question is yes, we1430can.1431    We are operating with legacy systems, but we do have1432dedicated professional teammates who have experience with those1433systems and all the associated bolt-ons that go with it to1434provide those trust decisions.1435    We are not where we want to be. And as we implement and1436integrate NBIS, the team is looking at continual improvements1437that we can make to the process.1438    Mr. Sessions. So, would that be against the 80 percent1439model that Ms. Czyz spoke about? The 80 percent model, you are144080 percent inefficient, is the way I took her comments.1441    Mr. Overbaugh. I would need to hear again, ma'am.1442    Ms. Czyz. Right. It is the time for granting top secret1443clearances is 80 percent longer than the government school.1444    Mr. Sessions. It is just one number that she threw out.1445    Ms. Czyz. Right. It is one data point.1446    Mr. Overbaugh. Yes. Yes, Mr. Chairman. And that is a1447concern that we have had. And I am encouraged by the work that1448DCSA has done to get down the investigative backlog to a number1449that is more acceptable. I think we spoke the other day on the1450fact it is about 100,000 now.1451    Mr. Session. Yes, you did.1452    Mr. Overbaugh. The team thinks that it can get to about145370,000 as part of a normal workflow process.1454    But we are also looking at things like the better that we1455get on the investigative side, we have to make sure that we are1456not overburdening the folks that do the adjudication. There are1457interoperabilities and relationships between those two tasks1458that will impact one another.1459    So, I am absolutely focused on the concerns that you are1460raising, and, again, why I would go back to the fact that I1461recognize that the progress that we have made is exceptionally1462fragile and we are going to have to stay laser focused on this.1463    I agree, we cannot wait another ten years. We have already1464spent way too much of the American taxpayers' dollars on this1465problem, and we are committed to delivering this capability by1466Fiscal Year 2028.1467    Mr. Sessions. It would be appropriate for me to recognize1468that both of you are, as I have said in the past, very1469professional, very inward looking, and attempting to focus on1470these things.1471    I want to put you in a position, however, that adds a1472little bit of fuel to the fire about decisionmaking that you1473and the department have to make. And you and I spent a little1474bit of time on that, about some of the intricacies, some of the1475problems of mirroring up who will take the job, who has got the1476background.1477    I will just say to you that something has got to happen1478there. We want the next person, as you have openly said, ``I1479will accept the responsibility.'' And I think that is1480magnanimous. I am delighted, as opposed to, ``Not my problem.''1481But time clicks on.1482    This Committee will not become frustrated. Mr. Mfume and I1483are not frustrated. We want to hear progress that is on both1484sides, and that is that the GAO has a responsibility as our arm1485to look at this.1486    I just simply think that there are things that he and I1487need to get into to see the incremental progress, that we are1488going to need to see that the decisionmaking that was done did1489better itself over some small period of time.1490    And, it could be the things that you have delineated. You1491have delineated, look, we have been out and talked to people.1492We had a problem with some personnel that were satisfied with1493not moving the ball forward. We have made decisions. We are,1494least of all, I think concerned about being nice to people but1495getting results.1496    And, I think Mr. Mfume and I do recognize there is always1497room for someone else to move or if you have got a problem to1498move them somewhere else and for them to take that as a lesson,1499a learning opportunity. Perhaps they are better positioned to1500do something different. But not to get in the way and not when1501you have accepted responsibility. I expect you to be able to1502have the bandwidth to pull that off notwithstanding a myriad of1503Federal laws, okay, employment laws.1504    One last point that I would like to ask. Do you have a1505handle on your people, meaning the people in this organization,1506some 13,000 of them reporting to work by the President's1507directive in January 2025?1508    Mr. Overbaugh. I am aware of no violations of the1509President's directive.1510    Mr. Sessions. So, you believe that you report, which you1511are required to do, report to Office of Management and Budget1512that your employees are back at work.1513    Mr. Overbaugh. Yes. As far as I know now, Mr. Chairman,1514that is true, and if I am misspeaking, I will definitely----1515    Mr. Sessions. Okay, you are entitled to revise that. But if1516you would please go back and double-check that. In some areas1517of the government, we still have a larger number of people and1518it is dragging down the organization's ability to effectively1519meet its goals too.1520    Mr. Overbaugh. Gladly. I will take that back, Mr. Chairman.1521    Mr. Sessions. Mr. Mfume, do you wish to have further time?1522    Mr. Mfume. Chairman, yes.1523    I have got a question, I guess, that always pops up when we1524are talking about this agency. And there is an old saying that1525goes, ``The hurrier I go, the behinder I get,'' which was the1526way people used to characterize frustration. Just spinning1527wheels, spinning wheels, spinning wheels.1528    And thinking about that, Mr. Overbaugh, I wanted to ask1529you, are you aware if the Secretary has sent from on high a1530directive all the way down to the thousands of people that work1531for you, and all that are on your level, that he wants in place1532a permanent director of the Defense Counterintelligence and1533Security Agency? Talking about Secretary Hegseth.1534    Mr. Overbaugh. Ranking Member Mfume, I can assure you that1535through the leadership of Secretary Hegseth and my boss, Mr.1536Hansell, that the selection for a permanent DCSA Director is a1537top priority.1538    Mr. Mfume. Right. But has he sent that word down to the1539many, many minions and ranks below him as a directive from his1540office as Secretary that you may be aware of?1541    Mr. Overbaugh. I am not aware of that communication, but I1542do know that Mr. Hansell views this as one of his top1543priorities and he has been looking for the right person to1544ensure that the progress that we have made continues forward.1545    Mr. Mfume. So, let me ask you another question about my1546frustration with the department at times.1547    Are you aware the department has failed seven or eight1548straight audits?1549    Mr. Overbaugh. I am.1550    Mr. Mfume. So, that is very troubling to me, and I am sure1551it is troubling to the Chairman of this Committee, because we1552just do not understand that. Seven or eight straight audits1553year after year after year with a budget that shrinks any other1554budget that is out there.1555    And one of the things that I try to do in dissecting that--1556and GAO was very helpful--I wanted to know what were the1557components that sort of led to that. And what we learned was1558that there was not a problem with the Marine Corps. They, for1559the last three or four years, have figured it out, gotten it1560done. And it was not a knock against the Army, the Air Force,1561or anyone else.1562    We asked, through GAO, what was the single most important1563feature that caused the Marine Corps to do what others had not1564been able to do, and the answer was that there was an order on1565high from the Commandant straight to everybody below him: This1566is a priority, get it done. And they got it done.1567    So, I asked the question about the Secretary, because I1568think if there was a directive from on high straight down that1569says this is a priority, get it done, it would get done.1570    Now, you cannot respond to that because you are not the1571Secretary, and casually, and not so casually, we have always1572said to him that this Committee is wide open to receive him any1573time that he would like to come by and talk about that or1574anything else. And I just want to reaffirm that that is the1575case today.1576    But in the absence, in my opinion, of a clear directive1577from the Secretary that this is not only a priority but, ``I1578want to get it done,'' I think we are kind of treading water,1579and one month turns into the next and the seasons change and1580the years change, and here we are now, aside from eight1581straight audits that have been failed, here we are now, 1001582percent over budget years beyond where we should be.1583    So, that is not for your ears to God. It is for the1584Secretary's ears to God. I hope that he will understand why1585this is so very important and why in this case he is the man,1586as they say. He can get this done. There is nothing that the1587U.S. Government cannot do. I honestly have always believed1588that.1589    And I do not know to what extent beyond you people have1590gone to him and said this is exposure here, this is not good,1591eight straight audits, 100 percent over cost, ten years behind1592schedule.1593    So, I want to thank you for your work previous to November1594and your work since November, and thank you also for wanting to1595own some of the issues that predated you.1596    But as I said before, that is somebody else's ownership. We1597will be looking at you from November on, obviously, and hoping1598and wishing that things change, which is why I was particularly1599encouraged to hear the GAO say that there have been some1600improvements and there are some things on track and for us to1601talk about a schedule and trying to get something before this1602Committee again in March or April. And I want to wish you well.1603    My sense is that we will be having this discussion again1604when the Chair decides to call us together again, and maybe1605incrementally we can designate or pinpoint some sort of1606progress.1607    Ms. Czyz, thank you also. I really want to thank the GAO. I1608do not want to call you the police, but you have done a great1609job of policing agencies throughout this government. And I am1610going to be heartened by your words, as I said a moment ago,1611that you have seen some improvements here, and we have got to1612make sure that every time we meet we can say that.1613    And I really hope, Mr. Secretary, if you are listening,1614that you would contact the Chair of this Committee and myself.1615We would love to talk with you, not to sling arrows but to try1616to figure out how do we put our finger in the dike to stop this1617amount of money going out and creating a security situation for1618the United States and its people and agents all over the globe1619that none of us want and none of us want to see come to pass.1620    So, Mr. Chairman, you have been very generous, as the1621gentleman from Tennessee said earlier. He is going to like you1622more than he likes me. It is just a matter of time. But thank1623you.1624    Mr. Sessions. I have got a little bit of time on my side,1625and I want to thank the gentleman.1626    If I could say that one of the things that temporarily1627disturbed us, is we did not hear--have back a letter that we1628sent to the Secretary. I did not see a response.1629    And Members of Congress that come from Subcommittees like1630ours where we attempt to approach things on a bipartisan basis1631to keep it level, to keep it professional, it would be1632appreciated that when we send a letter to hearing something1633back.1634    And I find it in a way that Mr. Mfume has been gracious1635about that. I do not write letters for the Department of War. I1636write letters to them. And I think that if there is one thing1637that you or the chief of staff, Mr. Hewett's here, would take1638back to some bit of people, that is when we get a letter, we1639should respond back professionally or at least respond back,1640``We do not intend to, too bad, we will wait to find out, it1641may take seven more months or ten more months.''1642    But that letter was sent with good intent. And for us to1643maintain a professional standard of business that Mr. Mfume1644insists on and I do, too, I think that that open communication1645extends also beyond you, sir.1646    I want to thank our witnesses for being here today. I want1647to thank the time, your staff. I want to thank our staffs. We1648have spent a good bit of time on this issue, and as Mr. Mfume1649said, we are not going away.1650    I want to thank everyone for being here today. I want to1651move to my--where I have got to state in closing I want to1652thank our witnesses. There is a five day--there it is.1653    So, with that said, without objection, all Members have1654five legislative days within which to submit materials and1655additional written questions for the witnesses, which will be1656forwarded to our witnesses.1657    If there is no further business, without objection, the1658Subcommittee stands adjourned.1659    [Whereupon, at 11:37 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]16601661                                 [all]