Hearings to examine the expected nomination of Doug Burgum, to be Secretary of the Interior.

1[Senate Hearing 119-44]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34.                                                       S. Hrg. 119-445                           BURGUM NOMINATION67=======================================================================89                                HEARING1011                               BEFORE THE1213                              COMMITTEE ON14                      ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES15                          UNITED STATES SENATE1617                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS1819                             FIRST SESSION2021                                   to2223              CONSIDER THE NOMINATION OF DOUGLAS J. BURGUM24                    TO BE SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR2526                               __________2728                            JANUARY 16, 20252930                               __________3132[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]3334                       Printed for the use of the35               Committee on Energy and Natural Resources3637        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov3839                                __________4041                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE4260-020                     WASHINGTON : 20254344-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------4546               COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES4748                        MIKE LEE, Utah, Chairman49JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming               MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico50JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho                RON WYDEN, Oregon51STEVE DAINES, Montana                MARIA CANTWELL, Washington52TOM COTTON, Arkansas                 MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii53DAVID McCORMICK, Pennsylvania        ANGUS S. KING, Jr., Maine54JAMES C. JUSTICE, West Virginia      CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada55BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana              JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado56CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi        ALEX PADILLA, California57LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska               RUBEN GALLEGO, Arizona58JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota5960                  Wendy Baig, Majority Staff Director61            Patrick J. McCormick III, Majority Chief Counsel62                 Jasmine Hunt, Minority Staff Director63                 Sam E. Fowler, Minority Chief Counsel6465                             C O N T E N T S6667                              ----------6869                           OPENING STATEMENTS7071                                                                   Page72Lee, Hon. Mike, Chairman and a U.S. Senator from Utah............     173Heinrich, Hon. Martin, Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator from New74  Mexico.........................................................     375Hoeven, Hon. John, a U.S. Senator from North Dakota..............     576Cramer, Hon. Kevin, a U.S. Senator from North Dakota.............    147778                                WITNESS7980Burgum, Douglas J., nominated to be Secretary of the Interior....    168182          ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED8384Agua Caliente Band of Cahuilla Indians:85    Letter for the Record........................................   12686Alkire, Janet:87    Letter for the Record dated January 10, 2025.................     788    Letter for the Record dated January 11, 2025.................   19889All Pueblo Council of Governors:90    Letter for the Record........................................   12791American Catfishing Association et al.:92    Letter for the Record........................................   12893American Council of Engineering Companies:94    Letter for the Record........................................   13095American Exploration and Mining Association:96    Letter for the Record........................................   13197American Forest and Paper Association:98    Letter for the Record........................................   13399American Gas Association:100    Letter for the Record........................................   134101Biteman, Bo et al.:102    Letter for the Record........................................   136103Burgum, Douglas J.:104    Opening Statement............................................    16105    Written Testimony............................................    19106    Responses to Questions for the Record........................    74107Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma:108    Letter for the Record........................................   138109Chukchansi Indians:110    Letter for the Record........................................   140111Citizens for Responsible Energy Solutions:112    Letter for the Record........................................   141113Coalition of Large Tribes:114    Letter for the Record........................................    27115Coeur d'Alene Tribe:116    Letter for the Record........................................   142117(The) Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes of the Flathead118  Nation:119    Letter for the Record........................................   144120Cramer, Hon. Kevin:121    Opening Statement............................................    14122Cramton, Jack:123    Communication for the Record.................................   135124Curley, Crystalyne:125    Letter for the Record........................................   201126Domestic Energy Producers' Alliance:127    Letter for the Record........................................   146128Eklutna, Inc.:129    Letter for the Record........................................   147130GLAAD:131    Letter for the Record........................................   149132Great Plains Tribal Chairmen's Association:133    Letter for the Record........................................     8134Heinrich, Hon. Martin:135    Opening Statement............................................     3136Heritage Waters Coalition:137    Letter for the Record........................................   151138Hispanics in Energy:139    Letter for the Record........................................   152140Hoeven, Hon. John:141    Opening Statement............................................     5142Indian Gaming Association:143    Letter for the Record........................................   153144Institute of Makers of Explosives:145    Letter for the Record........................................   154146Koi Nation of Northern California:147    Letter for the Record........................................   155148Lee, Hon. Mike:149    Opening Statement............................................     1150Little Shell Chippewa Tribe:151    Letter for the Record........................................   156152Lower Yellowstone Irrigation Project:153    Letter for the Record........................................   157154Lytton Rancheria:155    Letter for the Record........................................   158156Mandan, Hidatsa, and Arikara Nation:157    Letter for the Record........................................    10158Mashantucket Pequot Tribal Nation:159    Letter for the Record........................................   159160Menominee Indian Tribe of Wisconsin:161    Letter for the Record........................................   160162Moapa Band of Paiutes:163    Letter for the Record........................................   161164Montana Trappers Association:165    Letter for the Record........................................   162166NAFOA:167    Letter for the Record........................................   172168National Alliance of Forest Owners et al.:169    Letter for the Record........................................   163170National Mining Association:171    Letter for the Record........................................   165172National Rural Electric Cooperative Association:173    Letter for the Record........................................   167174National Stone, Sand, and Gravel Association:175    Letter for the Record........................................   169176National Trappers Association:177    Letter for the Record........................................   170178National Tribal Energy Association:179    Letter for the Record........................................   171180National Water Resources Association:181    Letter for the Record........................................   148182Navajo Nation:183    Letter for the Record........................................   174184Neiman, Chip et al.:185    Letter for the Record........................................   175186NSSF:187    Letter for the Record........................................   177188Oglala Sioux Tribe:189    Letter for the Record........................................   179190Osage Nation:191    Letter for the Record........................................   181192Outdoor Heritage Coalition:193    Letter for the Record........................................   182194Outdoor Recreation Roundtable:195    Letter for the Record........................................   183196Pala Band of Mission Indians:197    Letter for the Record........................................   185198Pascua Yaqui Tribe:199    Letter for the Record........................................   186200Portland Cement Association:201    Letter for the Record........................................   187202Pueblo of Santa Ana:203    Letter for the Record........................................   188204Puyallup Tribe of Indians:205    Letter for the Record........................................   189206RV Industry Association:207    Letter for the Record........................................   190208San Juan Southern Paiute Tribe:209    Letter for the Record........................................   192210Santa Clara Pueblo:211    Letter for the Record........................................   194212Seminole Nation of Oklahoma:213    Letter for the Record........................................   195214Sisseton-Wahpeton Oyate of the Lake Traverse Reservation:215    Letter for the Record........................................    11216Southern Ute Indian Tribe:217    Letter for the Record........................................   196218Spirit Lake Nation:219    Letter for the Record........................................    12220Tribal Alliance of Sovereign Indian Nations:221    Letter for the Record........................................   199222Tunica-Biloxi Tribe of Louisiana:223    Letter for the Record........................................   200224Turtle Mountain Band of Chippewa Indians:225    Letter for the Record........................................    13226U.S. Chamber of Commerce:227    Letter for the Record........................................   202228Velasquez, Kasey:229    Letter for the Record........................................   204230Viejas Tribal Government:231    Letter for the Record........................................   203232Yavapai-Apache Nation:233    Letter for the Record........................................   205234235                           BURGUM NOMINATION236237                              ----------238239                       THURSDAY, JANUARY 16, 2025240241                                       U.S. Senate,242                 Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,243                                                    Washington, DC.244    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 a.m. in245Room SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Mike Lee,246Chairman of the Committee, presiding.247248              OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MIKE LEE,249                     U.S. SENATOR FROM UTAH250251    The Chairman. Good morning, and welcome to the Senate252Energy and Natural Resources Committee. This is a hearing that253we are holding today to consider Governor Doug Burgum of North254Dakota to be the Secretary of the Interior. It is an honor and255a privilege to serve in this capacity as Chairman during such a256pivotal moment for our nation and issues surrounding its energy257needs and land management policies.258    I want to extend a warm welcome to Governor Doug Burgum,259and to his wife, Kathryn, thank you for being here. And thank260you both for joining us today, and you will have a chance in a261moment to introduce anyone else in the audience who is here262with you today that you would like to.263    Governor Burgum, your nomination to lead the Department of264the Interior comes at an urgent time, as Americans under the265policies of the Biden Administration are suffering from266skyrocketing energy prices that drive up the cost of everything267from gas to groceries, from housing to healthcare, to268restrictive land use policies that tend to stifle growth269generally. The challenges facing American families are mounting270and they are staggering.271    This past November, voters decided to send a clear message.272They demanded bold leaders willing to break from the status quo273and take a fresh approach, one less likely to result in this274awful pattern of inflation in which we found ourselves over the275last four years. Your nomination has garnered remarkable276support from tribes, from organizations, businesses, and people277of all stripes and backgrounds, particularly those who were278most uniquely and directly affected by the U.S. Department of279the Interior and its policies. The dozens of letters of280support, nationwide, further underscore your reputation as a281leader, one who is committed to change, committed to fostering282relationships, and they reflect pretty widespread confidence in283your vision and in your readiness to lead this organization.284    The Department of the Interior, of course, plays a central285role in addressing many of these challenges, particularly in286states like Utah, my state, where federal land management287shapes nearly every aspect of our day-to-day life because,288well, the Federal Government owns two-thirds of the land, about28967 percent in my state. And there are other members of this290Committee who represent other public land states who understand291the relationship between the Department you have been called to292lead and their day-to-day lives. Nearly one-fifth of the land293in the United States is under the jurisdiction of the U.S.294Department of the Interior. In my state, it's much higher than295that, of course. And this influences everything from energy296development, to public land access, tribal relations, and297wildlife management. In Utah, where the Federal Government298controls more than two-thirds of the land, the impact of these299policies is profound. The decisions made in Washington ripple300through our economy and our communities in ways that are301unmistakable and not always positive.302    Unfortunately, these policies have taken a troubling turn303during the Biden Administration. Expanding national monuments304like Bears Ears and Grand Staircase without meaningful input305from local communities has jeopardized access and harmed the306locals, who call these places home. The Public Lands Rule and307restrictive management plans have placed unnecessary and often308insurmountable barriers in the way of responsible resource309development and land access. On his first day in office,310President Biden issued a moratorium on oil and gas leasing,311severely damaging our energy security, and locking away312resources we needed to power our homes and our economy.313    Now, over time, these decisions have revealed a pattern of314disregard for the multiple-use mandate that federal land315management is supposed to uphold, and to which it has been316subject for nearly 50 years. The consequences of these policies317extend, of course, far beyond Utah. As wildfires devastate318California, it is clear that mismanagement of public lands has319consequences that often reach far beyond rural areas. Federal320agencies must reevaluate their approach to wildfire prevention,321prioritizing forest management strategies that mitigate the322risk of catastrophic blazes. Utah and other western states know323too well the devastation that these fires cause, and addressing324this crisis must be a very key priority for the Department.325    Reversing course will, of course, require bold leadership326and a willingness to embrace innovative solutions. The327Department of the Interior must take a hard look at the leasing328restrictions of the last few years, which have steered329development toward low-potential areas while blocking access to330high-value resources, like critical minerals. These are the331building blocks for our economy and our national defense and we332can't afford to let bureaucratic delays jeopardize our future.333    Housing shortages across the West present another daunting334challenge that we have to face. By working with state and local335governments to identify underutilized federal lands, the336Department could finally, meaningfully alleviate the housing337crisis in places like Utah, where the demand for affordable338homes far exceeds supply. Bills like my HOUSES Act would339provide a long-term strategy and a strong framework for such340partnerships, showing that federal land policy can drive341solutions rather than creating obstacles. The Colorado River, a342lifeline for millions across the West, faces growing threats.343Effective communication and support from the Department of the344Interior as states negotiate the river's future will be345critical to safeguarding that vital resource.346    Our national parks also require renewed attention. These347iconic landscapes are a source of pride and a major economic348driver for the gateway communities surrounding them. According349to some polls, they are one of the few features of the Federal350Government that people actually like, so we have got to take351care of them. The Department must work to balance accessibility352with conservation, ensuring that visitors can enjoy these353treasures without compromising the future. This will require354stronger partnerships with local stakeholders to address355infrastructure needs and manage visitor impacts.356    On the regulatory front, the misuse of the Endangered357Species Act has caused significant harm by halting development358projects and undermining state authority. While the ESA is an359essential tool for protecting imperiled species, it must be360applied judiciously and in coordination with local governments361to avoid unnecessary conflict.362    Governor Burgum, your track record uniquely positions you,363in particular, to lead the Department of the Interior during364this challenging time. Your vision and your leadership will be365instrumental to restoring balance to federal policies and366ensuring that public lands are managed with accountability and367with care. Utah stands ready to work with you in tackling these368challenges and charting a new course that reflects the369principles of federalism and respect for local communities.370Utah stands ready to work with you in tackling these challenges371and charting a new course, and I invite you to visit Utah as372soon as you have a chance to see firsthand the opportunities373and the challenges we face.374    The hearing that we are having today marks the beginning of375an essential conversation about the future of the Department of376the Interior, and I look forward to hearing your perspective377and exploring ways that we can work together to address these378pressing issues.379    Thanks again for your willingness to serve, and I really380look forward to our discussions today. I am going to turn the381time over now to our Ranking Member, Senator Martin Heinrich382from New Mexico.383384 OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARTIN HEINRICH, U.S. SENATOR FROM385                           NEW MEXICO386387    Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Chairman, and Governor Burgum,388welcome to the Energy and Natural Resources Committee.389    We had a great conversation last week. I am very much390looking forward to hearing your answers to the questions today.391And I, too, want to begin by acknowledging the horrific392wildfires in California over the last couple of weeks. Having393spoken to many of my members on the dais, I know you are going394to get some questions about that, and in particular about395firefighters, and how we make sure that they are supported.396    The Department of the Interior has responsibility for an397incredibly broad array of issues, from conserving the places398that Americans love to spend time with their families, to399protecting and recovering our most iconic wildlife species, to400delivering water to cities and farms across the West and401fulfilling our nation's trust responsibilities to tribal402nations. Pretty much any job that involves responsibilities403that range from elementary school students and health care to404bison is a pretty big job. Public lands are where we go to camp405and hike and hunt and fish and spend time with our families.406They are where our veterans go to seek the peace and solitude407that their service to our country could not always provide. And408while there are some who argue that the very existence of409public lands--places like Yosemite or the Bitterroot National410Forest--is unconstitutional, most Americans know that the idea411of lands that belong to everyone, no matter where they live or412who their parents are or how thick or thin their wallet is, is413one of the most democratic ideas of our nation. I hope you will414join me in keeping public lands in public hands.415    The Interior Department is also the leader in meeting our416nation's trust responsibility to tribal nations and upholding417the treaty commitments that we, as a nation, made to tribes and418their members. As a nation, as we discussed in my office, we419routinely fall short of meeting those commitments. We can and420we must do better.421    As the relentless pace of climate change brings bigger422floods, hotter summers, higher winds, as we have seen in423California, and diminished snowpack, which we are experiencing424in New Mexico, it is also driving the long-term aridification425of the western United States. Over the next 50 years, it is426expected that New Mexico will have 25 percent less water than427we have had historically. And we are not alone in that. The428Colorado River, which provides drinking water for 40 million429people, irrigates billions of dollars' worth of crops, provides430essential habitat for fish and wildlife, and will likely never431return to those early 20th century flows that we used to be432able to expect. Through the Bureau of Reclamation, the433Department of the Interior must play an active role in helping434the West transition to that new water reality.435    And as you know, the Interior Department is also an energy436department. As we make the transition to a cleaner energy437economy, the land and water managed by the Department will play438an indispensable role in producing the energy that we need, as439well as facilitating the ability to move that energy around the440country. From geothermal and hydrogen, to solar and wind, the441Department's work is at the center of our energy future.442    Governor, I very much look forward to hearing your plans on443all of these topics and more, and I think we will have some444very active questions from all of our members today.445    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Heinrich.446    We are now going to hear introductions from the North447Dakota delegation.448    First, we will hear from Senator Hoeven, and then in a449moment, from Senator Cramer.450451            OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN HOEVEN,452                 U.S. SENATOR FROM NORTH DAKOTA453454    Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Chairman Lee, and also Ranking455Member Heinrich, I appreciate that, and thanks for holding this456hearing today.457    Doug, Governor, welcome to you, and Kathryn, welcome to you458and Doug, to your whole team. It's great to see you guys.459Thanks for your incredible service on behalf of North Dakota,460and it really is an honor today to introduce you to our Energy461and Natural Resources Committee.462    Senator Cramer, welcome to you, as well. Good to have you463here.464    I am not sure where to start. I have known Doug for more465than 30 years, and we have working in various capacities for466the duration, and as well as just being a very good friend,467both Doug and Kathryn, to myself and my wife, Mikey--so, on468behalf of her as well, greetings. And thanks for your469willingness to serve.470    Of course, grew up in Arthur, North Dakota and then went to471school at NDSU, home of the Bison--the mighty Bison--and then472went to a lesser-known school for--Stanford, I think--for an473MBA, right? But after that, went to work for McKinsey474Consulting. My staff wrote up this beautiful introduction, but475I think I am just going to talk a little bit about our shared476time together and friendship. He came back, and actually there477was this nascent software company, Great Plains Software, and478he, along with some of his relatives, mortgaged the family farm479and bought it on a flyer and went to work and started hiring480these kids from across--young people from across North Dakota481to develop this software company. And I went to his office, I482don't know, a long time ago, over 30 years ago, and he was in483there, he was putting these 8x8, I guess, floppy discs into484sleeves and then he would put them into boxes and then put them485into larger boxes, and they were shipping it. And I said, Doug,486you know, what is this? What are you doing? Well, I then487learned all about--and if you know Doug, you know what I mean,488it's true--all about PC software. And he built that company up,489sold it--or went public in 1997 with it--sold it to Microsoft490in 2001 and that became Microsoft Business Solutions. And so,491Microsoft Business Solutions today had its genesis in Great492Plains Software.493    Doug ran Microsoft Business Solutions for a number of494years, kept it there in Fargo. It was the largest location for495Microsoft outside of Bellevue, Washington, and it had, I don't496know, 2,000 or more North Dakotans working for them from across497the state. Left that after a while, started some more498companies. Went into philanthropy, including some really great499things for our North Dakota State University and many other500things. Revitalized, in many respects, downtown Fargo with his501real estate development. In 1997, when I was Governor, I gave502him the Theodore Roosevelt Rough Rider Award, which is our503highest award. And I can remember him looking at me at the time504and going, gee, John, I hope I am not done accomplishing505things. And obviously, you weren't, Doug.506    Ran for Governor in 2016--won. Ran again in 2020 and won507overwhelmingly, mostly because of Kathryn, we think, but won by508a big majority. Did a great job as Governor. Ran for President509and actually was the first of the presidential candidates, when510he left the race, to endorse President Trump. And President511Trump, right from the get-go, and Kevin will tell you the same512thing, when we talked to him about Doug, he was really excited513about Doug from the jump. And I am thinking, well, the guy ran514against you, really? But he never had anything but great things515to say about Doug, and of course, Kathryn, which we all516understand.517    But he endorsed President Trump, and what Trump saw was518somebody who truly understands energy, and the Trump519Administration has such a big energy agenda that he knew this520was the guy to lead it. So it's not just about leading the521Department of the Interior as Secretary, but leading the522National Energy Council, and that is what President Trump has523really seen in him. But that being said, because there are a524lot of things that Interior touches--I mean, this is a guy that525loves the outdoors. He has got a ranch. He loves to be outside,526riding horses, you know, rounding up cattle. He loves to hunt.527So he loves the outdoors. He loves the National Park System. He528is a historian. I mean, Angus King, he would even challenge you529for trivial knowledge of history, and important knowledge of530history too, but I mean, just any detail. Head-to-head, you two531guys going into detail, it would be fun to listen to for a532while.533    And so, he loves the outdoors. He loves the park system,534and talk to folks that he has worked with in Indian Country.535Every single tribe in North Dakota--we have five reservations.536We have a lot more tribes than that, but every single tribe has537endorsed him. Mr. Chairman, I ask that these letters be538introduced into the record.539    The Chairman. Without objection.540    [Letters of support follow:]541    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]542543    Senator Hoeven. And more than 180 different tribes across544the country have endorsed him too. That says something. That545says something about a guy who is willing to sit down and talk546to folks. And he--this is a guy that fits this job. He really547does. He covers all the bases. And so, I hope everybody on this548Committee will take time and visit with him and understand549where he is coming from and understand that he will take time550to understand your issues and work with you because I think you551will find this is the right man, the right fit for this job.552    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.553    The Chairman. Senator Cramer.554555            OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. KEVIN CRAMER,556                 U.S. SENATOR FROM NORTH DAKOTA557558    Senator Cramer. Thank you, Chairman Lee, and Ranking Member559Heinrich, and congratulations to both of you on your leadership560of this important Committee, and it was great to listen to561John. And by the way, let me start out by doing what I always562do best, and that is agree with John Hoeven. It has worked very563well for me in my career. But what struck me right away is, as564he starts talking like a governor, is I look around the room,565then he brings up Angus. I'm thinking I'm in a former566governors' club, for crying out loud. You guys, you are going567to have a lot of great things to talk about.568    You know, there is so much to be said, and John has done it569very, very well. So I am just going to highlight a couple of570things, and to John's point about President Trump's confidence571in Doug Burgum, he called me a lot, the President did. He even572called me when Doug was his opponent and said, I like that Doug573Burgum guy a lot. And he said, he is just so smart and he is so574good and he has got a big brain and he understands everything.575And I said, he does. He does, and he will be very, very576valuable to you in your service.577    And I think, as a consumer, as Governor Burgum and First578Lady Kathryn are consumers of these incredible federal assets579of ours, our great, rich properties, as recreators,580understanding the value that it brings to agriculture, that581they bring to extraction--responsible extraction of minerals, I582think one of the things that oftentimes maybe does not get583talked about with Governor Burgum is, he is not just an oil man584from an oil and gas producing state, he is first and foremost,585a conservationist. He is from the land of Roosevelt. And he586absolutely, relentlessly carried the ball to ensure that the587Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library gets built and that it588gets built in Medora, North Dakota, at the gateway to Theodore589Roosevelt National Park, so that it can become the symbol of590responsible extraction of minerals and responsible production591of federal assets in a way that both exercises great care for592the land and the water and the air, as well as great economic593opportunity for the people that own these assets. That is a594remarkable balance that he brings to this. And so, it's such a595great honor for me to be able to be here with him to talk about596the multiple uses of our federal assets in ways that recognize597their value in so many ways.598    And then, I want to--and I will just wrap up with this,599because John did such a great job, but I want to read one short600paragraph from one of the letters from one of our tribes. And I601know that many tribes throughout the country have written602letters. Over my years of public service in North Dakota, and603working hard at relationships with tribal leaders and604recognizing government-to-government relationships, the thing605that has impressed me the most, perhaps, about Doug Burgum as a606governor, was the respect that he always showed for them and607that has been reciprocated because he did the hard thing--he608earned the trust that had been lost, not by former governors so609much as just history, as history. It is hard work to do that.610    And so, I am just going to close, Mr. Chairman, I just want611to read a paragraph from Chairwoman Janet Alkire from the612Standing Rock Sioux Tribe in North and South Dakota. Probably613one of the more challenging relationships in recent years has614been over the Dakota Access Pipeline, and that particular615tribe, which with different leadership could have divided616people in a big way. But even through that, through all of617that, he earned their support, and I am just going to read this618short paragraph, and then I will end with my thanks to you for619allowing me this opportunity. And my thanks to you, Doug, for620allowing me this blessing.621    ``Governor Burgum understands the Native American dynamic,622which, if you are non-native can be difficult to maneuver. But623he does it well. He understands the importance of honoring624traditional values and culture, promoting family first,625remembering who we are and where we came from, the struggles we626endure, and community wellness.''627    And so, it's just my honor to be able to introduce him628today, and I look forward to a successful confirmation and629working together.630    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.631    The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Cramer, and also, Senator632Hoeven.633    Governor Burgum, the rules of the committee require that634``at any hearing to confirm a Presidential nomination, the635testimony of the nominee shall be under oath.'' Accordingly, if636you will please stand and raise your right hand, I will637administer the oath.638    Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to639give to the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources640shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?641    Mr. Burgum. I do.642    The Chairman. Thank you.643    Now, before I have you begin your opening statement, I will644ask three questions that are addressed to each nominee who645comes before the Committee.646    First, will you be available to appear before this647committee and other congressional committees to represent648departmental positions and respond to issues of concern to the649Congress?650    Mr. Burgum. Yes.651    The Chairman. Are you aware of any personal holdings,652investments, or interests that could constitute a conflict of653interest or create the appearance of such a conflict, should654you be confirmed and assume the office to which you have been655nominated by the President?656    Mr. Burgum. No.657    The Chairman. Are you involved or do you have any assets658that are held in a blind trust?659    Mr. Burgum. No, I do not.660    The Chairman. I will invite you now to introduce your661family before you give your opening statement.662663 STATEMENT OF DOUGLAS J. BURGUM, NOMINATED TO BE SECRETARY OF664                          THE INTERIOR665666    Mr. Burgum. Well, good morning. Thank you, Senator Lee.667Thank you, Senator Heinrich. I am grateful to have the668opportunity. Thank you for your leadership on this Committee.669    And I do want to begin with gratitude, as I always do, with670a special thank you to my friends, Senator Hoeven and Senator671Cramer, not just for their kind words this morning, but their672incredible service to the country, and to North Dakota over673their lifetimes.674    And Senator Lee, as you acknowledged, I am deeply grateful675for the support of all of my friends, my family, especially our676three kids, and my amazing and courageous former First Lady, my677wife, Kathryn Burgum, who is joining me here today.678    It is certainly an honor to have been nominated by679President Trump to serve as the 55th Secretary of the Interior.680As Senator Hoeven said, I grew up in Arthur, North Dakota. This681is a tiny town of about 400 people. We didn't even have paved682streets when I grew up. It was all gravel, and it was 400 if683you counted everybody that was also staying in the Good684Samaritan Home--that's how we got to 400.685    My father was a World War II Navy officer who served in the686Pacific. My dad died when I was freshman in high school, and my687mom went back to work in higher education. I was blessed to688learn from them about service, about leadership, and about689sacrifice, and certainly, from both of them, about a love of690the outdoors. Growing up, I worked in our family's grain691elevator. Every job I had, all the way from junior high through692the end of college was one that required showering at the end693of the day, not at the beginning of the day. And I even worked694my way through undergrad at North Dakota State as a chimney695sweep, which I loved that job because it was one where you696could move up fast and always stay in the black. I thought it697was the perfect career.698    [Laughter.]699    Mr. Burgum. After grad school, as John mentioned, I had an700opportunity to go directly from undergrad to Stanford for an701MBA. And then later, when I was working in Chicago, I saw my702first Apple II computer, and that was the moment, literally,703where I said I need to get into the software business. And I704had inherited 160 acres of farm ground from my dad, and I705literally bet the farm on that tiny software startup called706Great Plains. With a dream and hard-working team members we707grew to a global public company with over 2,000 team members708serving 140,000 businesses in over 100 countries around the709world. I spent my entire professional career in the private710sector until I was elected Governor in 2016. And for the last711eight years, I have been blessed with the privilege of serving712the citizens of the great State of North Dakota.713    My time as Governor has been a valuable preparation for the714opportunity and the privilege to potentially serve in the role715of Secretary of Interior, as our state and my duties716specifically as Governor there put me in contact with many of717the bureaus inside the Department. In North Dakota, we share718geography with five sovereign tribal nations. State and tribal719relationships in North Dakota have sometimes been challenged,720but the current partnership is historically strong because we721prioritized tribal engagement through mutual respect, open722communication, collaboration, and a sincere willingness to723listen. I am grateful for the many tribal nations, both in and724outside North Dakota, for expressing their support for my725nomination.726    As Governor of North Dakota, I also served as Chairman of727the North Dakota Land Board, which manages our state's land and728minerals with the goal of yielding a return for a state729endowment fund that significantly funds public education. I730chaired the North Dakota Industrial Commission, which oversees73116 agencies that are related to a variety of things, including732energy research, the state's geologic resources, energy733production, and transmission. The Governor or North Dakota also734serves as the Chair of the State Water Commission, overseeing735billions of dollars of water resources and projects. All of736these are parallel responsibilities to Interior, and often737interacted with Interior agencies.738    North Dakota, of course, is blessed with a rugged natural739beauty, including the majesty of the Theodore Roosevelt740National Park, which is home to Theodore Roosevelt's Elkhorn741Ranch, which is considered by many to the cradle of modern742conservation. And of course, we have beautiful Badlands. I743would like to note here on the record that our Badlands are744significantly badder than South Dakota's Badlands.745    [Laughter.]746    Mr. Burgum. Just tremendously badder, not even close.747    [Laughter.]748    Mr. Burgum. But we, in addition to that, we have got great749prairies, world-renowned agriculture. We have got amazing750hunting and fishing, four-season outdoor recreation, and much,751much more.752    In North Dakota, we created a prosperous economy by753sustainably developing our natural resources, along with our754respect for the land and the wildlife, and at the same time,755having among the cleanest air and the cleanest water in the756country. During our tenure, North Dakota experienced among the757lowest unemployment in the nation and the highest real GDP758growth. Demographically, our state went from one of the oldest759states to one of the youngest. We attracted record levels of760talent and investment capital. I say this because our success761was underpinned by the understanding that we live in a time of762tremendous, tremendous abundance, and we can access that763abundance as Americans by prioritizing innovation over764regulation.765    If given the opportunity to serve as the Secretary of766Interior, I will bring those experiences and those lessons767learned to the leadership of the tens of thousands of dedicated768professionals within the Department of the Interior, which769brings us to President Trump's vision for a vibrant future that770we can achieve together. The American people have clearly771placed their confidence in President Trump to achieve energy772dominance. And by energy dominance, that is the foundation of773American prosperity, affordability for American families, and774unrivaled national security.775    Today, America produces energy cleaner, smarter, and safer776than anywhere in the world. And when energy production is777restricted in America, it doesn't reduce demand, it just shifts778production to countries like Russia and Iran, whose autocratic779leaders not only don't care at all about the environment, but780they use their revenues from energy sales to fund wars against781us and our allies. President Trump's energy dominance vision782will end those wars abroad and will make life more affordable783for every family in America by driving down inflation. And784President Trump will achieve those goals while championing785clean air, clean water, and protecting our beautiful lands.786    Next to T.R. National Park we are building the Theodore787Roosevelt Presidential Library and Museum to honor the leader788who advised America to ``speak softly, and carry a big stick.''789In our time, President Trump's energy dominance can be790America's big stick that would be leveraged to achieve historic791prosperity and world peace. The Department of the Interior, in792cooperation with the U.S. Congress, this Committee, and the793states will play a pivotal role in achieving the outcomes to794make the world safer and America even better for our children,795our grandchildren, and generations to come.796    I thank you for inviting me here today and look forward to797your questions and our discussion.798    [The prepared statement of Mr. Burgum follows:]799    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]800801    The Chairman. Thank you, Governor Burgum. We will now begin802our first round of five-minute questions. We will alternate803back and forth between Republicans and Democrats, and I will go804first, then Senator Heinrich and so on and so forth in order of805seniority and arrival at the hearing.806    I want to start by talking briefly about the Antiquities807Act. This is a law passed over a century ago by Congress. It808gives the President power unilaterally to declare national809monuments. Now, there is a restriction in it that requires810national monuments occupy no more land than is compatible--the811smallest area compatible with the interest to be protected by812the monument. These have become something of a political813football in parts of the country, especially in my state. In814Utah, President Clinton designated the Grand Staircase-815Escalante National Monument in 1996. President Obama added the816Bears Ears National Monument in 2016, shortly before he left817office.818    Now, both of these designations were made over the819objection of the people of Utah and their elected820representatives. President Trump later reduced the size of both821monuments in 2017, after he got elected, to bring them more822into conformity with the Antiquities Act requirement for823minimal boundaries. Then, in 2021, President Biden re-expanded824them, exceeding the scope of the law and disregarding local825input. As I explained to President Biden at the time, this is826the size of two Delawares within my state that have been moved827into this very restricted use classification. The point is not828that there aren't beautiful things to protect in the state, but829the line was drawn so big and the monument was made so830expansive, in part because local leaders were not consulted and831to the extent that they were heard, their counsel was ignored.832    So Governor Burgum, I would like to invite you, when you833visit Utah, to meet with those whose voices were ignored by the834Biden Administration during those monument re-expansions. Will835you work with me to try to fix that current mess and try to836figure out how best to proceed and to make sure that the837Antiquities Act-designated monuments don't exceed the838restriction within the statute itself?839    Mr. Burgum. Well, thank you, Senator Lee, for that840important question. The 1906 Antiquities Act, of course, was841signed into law by President Roosevelt himself, and it was, as842you stated multiple times, it states very clearly that it's the843smallest possible area to protect those objects to be844protected, and its original intention was really to protect, as845it says, antiquities areas like, I would say, Indiana Jones-846type archeological protections. These are essential that we847protect these areas as a country and that is what the law848intended. But I would look forward to working with you, and849particularly in the area of local consultation, because when850the Federal Government overreaches into a state like yours that851already has over 60 percent of its land in public lands and852restricts that use, it has got tremendous impact on tribes, on853the local communities, and all those around. And I just think854it's important that we strike the right balance. I look forward855to working with you on this issue.856    The Chairman. Thank you. I appreciate that.857    Housing is another area that I would like to address858briefly. There is a particularly acute housing shortage in the859West, where the presence of federal land--not just the860presence, but the predominance of federal land available for861housing frequently results in shortages. It just makes a lot of862things difficult. And it's not as though we have one part of863the state that is all federal and another part of the state864that is all non-federal. It's all intermingled. And as a865result, it impacts all kinds of things.866    Now, many of our communities in states like Utah and867Nevada, among others, find ourselves feeling sort of like we868are islands, floating islands within a sea of federal land, and869that just constrains growth and makes our constraints on our870housing supply that much more dire. I would love to work with871you on a bill that I have introduced, that I have worked on for872several years, called the HOUSES Act, in addition to looking873for developing other creative ways to address the housing874affordability crisis in the West. In your view, how can the875Department of the Interior help address the housing crisis in876areas like, as is the case in my state, where the presence of877federal land often inhibits community needs?878    Mr. Burgum. Well, I understand that one of the great879challenges we are facing in this nation right now is housing880affordability, and in my discussion and friendship with881Governor Spencer Cox of your state, I know that it's a high882priority for him and for the state. I think there are883opportunities for us to accomplish both. I mean, like I said,884we are in a time of abundance. We have got federal lands885abutting urban areas, and we maybe have other areas that maybe886need to be protected, like we have done in North Dakota. As887Governor, sometimes we have done land swaps. So we trade state888land for private lands to provide better outcomes for both of889those pieces of land. And I think there certainly are890opportunities here.891    Public lands, in general, some like the national parks,892absolutely we need to support and protect every single inch of893those, but in other cases, we have got a multiple-use scenario894for our lands, and I believe there are pathways that we can895find, particularly in states like yours and others that have 50896to 60 percent or more of your land held by the Federal897Government, that we can find appropriate solutions to help898address the housing. I look forward to working with you on899that.900    The Chairman. Yes, thank you, Governor.901    I see my time is expired. We will turn the time over to902Senator Heinrich.903    Senator Heinrich. Governor, I actually want to continue on904that same vein. I had a very long and detailed question here905written by my staff that I am going to depart from and just go906to the heart of the issue, which is: I think what people are907concerned about--and this was a very hot issue this year908because of legal action--is the idea that we would somehow, in909a wholesale way, divest our public lands. So talk a little bit910about how we can stay true to our conservation history, make911sure that the things we do on our public lands--especially,912well not especially, but economically, recreationally, and as913you know, they play such an essential cultural role in states914like mine--can be supported while making smart decisions about915individual parcels.916    Mr. Burgum. Well, thank you, Senator Heinrich. I think we917have to look no further than New Mexico for the answer to the918fact that we can find the balance because--as I know Senator919Hoeven and I hate to acknowledge--New Mexico passed North920Dakota as the number two oil and gas producer in the States,921and yet, your state has got a tremendous record of protecting922cultural and historical lands and providing that balance. And923so, I think there is certainly the opportunity for us to find924that balance going forward where we can protect the land that925we need to protect, but also solve issues, whether it's housing926or whether it's resource development that may be of interest to927the tribe and the local communities.928    Senator Heinrich. And that's something we really pride929ourselves on in New Mexico, is that we have been able to strike930a balance that we have been able to be an energy leader on many931fronts, and at the same time, we have created a number of932national monuments that are not controversial, that are deeply933supported by local leaders, by veterans groups, by tribes, by934hunters, and fishermen alike. So I would just simply ask that935before the Department makes wholesale changes to conservation936designations in the State of New Mexico, at least, that you937would meet with myself and any local leaders who helped to938create those designations in the first place.939    Mr. Burgum. Yes, absolutely, I would look forward to those940discussions with you, and I think, again, as you have941described, the key to this is the local consultation. As942Senator Lee and other states have experienced, there have been943incidents where there has been complete and total opposition944and no local consultation. And I think, again, my experience as945Governor and working with tribes and working with local946communities in North Dakota, whether it's grazing associations,947county commissioners, mayors, rural residents, I think the948consultation is key.949    Senator Heinrich. And part of that consultation is also950those tribes that have both current and historic connections to951those places as well, right?952    Mr. Burgum. Absolutely.953    Senator Heinrich. Great.954    As a former outfitter guide, I am really quite excited that955this Senate and this body just passed the EXPLORE Act. It's the956first major piece of outdoor recreation legislation. Senator957Barrasso was incredibly involved in that, as was Senator958Manchin. Permitting reform was something I worked on in that959piece of legislation. And it's kind of a recognition of the big960economic driver of our public lands that often doesn't get the961same attention that energy and other uses get. Outdoor962recreation in New Mexico is responsible for something like96329,000 jobs and billions of dollars of impact. On a national964scale, it's over a trillion-dollar economy.965    So talk again a little bit about how we can balance those966competing issues, as you did as Governor, and support that967outdoor recreation economy, because it is growing and it is968particularly critical to our rural gateway communities.969    Mr. Burgum. Well, first, I would just like to say this is a970really important topic, but it's also a passion of mine. As971someone who has spent my life as an avid outdoorsman, I was972very pleased to get the full endorsement of the Outdoor973Recreation Roundtable for this job, which represents that974trillion-dollar industry.975    Senator Heinrich. I think that's where we first met.976    Mr. Burgum. Yes, it represents all of these different977aspects. And I think the opportunity for, in most states--I978recognized this as Governor, and we created an Office of979Outdoor Recreation while I was Governor and continue to invest,980and whether that's access to fishing and hunting, public access981on public lands, we have got a number of great things going on982in North Dakota that we have done there that have been really983helpful, including using technology. We took all the posting984requirements in our state, and we got all the landowners, the985pheasant hunters, all the waterfowl hunters, and got everybody986to agree on that. And we created a tool where, even for987hunting, you can look on your phone and find out whether the988land is posted or not posted. And it might be posted no for989deer hunting, yes, for pheasant hunting.990    Senator Heinrich. Right.991    Mr. Burgum. And it includes the phone number and it is992posted, but if you call me and talk to me, I might let you on,993but then the landowner's name and the phone number is right994there. So we have been able to find tools to bring together995landowners and sportsmen on both private lands as well as996public lands to try to make sure that we can keep that outdoor997economy rolling.998    Senator Heinrich. Thank you.999    The Chairman. Senator Daines.1000    Senator Daines. Chairman, thank you.1001    Governor Burgum, welcome, as well as welcome to the First1002Lady of North Dakota. Good to have you both here.1003    If confirmed, you will be eighth in line of succession of1004President of the United States, Governor. And that goes in line1005with when these departments became part of the U.S. Government.1006Interior goes back to 1849. And the oldest agency within1007Interior is the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA). I think it's1008only fitting, before I get into my questions, my remarks, if I1009might submit a letter for the record from the Coalition of1010Large Tribes (COLT), of which three of my twelve federally1011recognized tribes in Montana are part of COLT. Of course, you1012have five federally recognized tribes and members of COLT. I1013just read the letter that they wrote in your support.1014    It says, ``It has been incredible for COLT tribes to have1015such a close supporter nominated to the Secretary's office. He1016is someone in whom we have deep trust and confidence. We have1017gone to him with our most complex, difficult issues over many1018years. He is exactly the kind of leader tribes need at the1019Interior Department.'' And they close the letter by saying1020this, ``Governor Burgum has COLT's highest recommendation and1021endorsement to serve as the next Secretary of the Interior.''1022    Mr. Chairman, I would like to submit this letter for the1023record.1024    The Chairman. Without objection.1025    [Letter of support from COLT follows:]1026   [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]10271028    Senator Daines. Governor, last week, the Fish and Wildlife1029Service denied Montana and Wyoming's petitions to delist the1030Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem and Northern Continental Divide1031Ecosystem grizzly bears because these two populations have1032exceeded recovery targets by so much that the service no longer1033believes these two populations are even distinct. We should be1034celebrating the fact that the grizzly bear has recovered as an1035example of a great species now that has recovered and is1036prolific across these ecosystems. But sadly, this ruling coming1037out of FWS punishes Montana's successful grizzly bear recovery1038efforts. It's really completely backwards. We should be1039celebrating the recovery, but instead, we are now having to1040sacrifice to adjust to living with the bears, whether it's1041predation losses by livestock producers, as well as human1042safety. Sadly, many Montanans have been killed or badly mauled1043by grizzly bears. So the people back home take this very, very1044seriously. It has literally gotten the point of, along the1045Rocky Mountain front, west of Great Falls, where the playground1046at one of our schools, they have a high fence there to protect1047the children from grizzly bears when they go out for recess.1048    The Service keeps moving these goalposts for delisting and1049returning these bears to state management, where it absolutely1050belongs, like we have done with the wolves. The Service set1051recovery numbers at 500 and 800, respectively, for the Greater1052Yellowstone Ecosystem and the Northern Continental Divide1053Ecosystem. The most recent estimate is now--best science--2,1001054bears in these two ecosystems. Governor Burgum, would you1055acknowledge that the data shows the recovery of these two1056populations and commit to working with me to delist them?1057    Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator Daines, I am aware of the data,1058and this is a super-important issue I know to Montanans. It's1059important to people also in Wyoming and Idaho. And I am with1060you. We should be celebrating when species come off the1061Endangered Species list as opposed to fighting every way we can1062to try to keep them on that list because, as you say, the1063complications. And the other thing you mentioned in your1064remarks is also the state. Having been a governor, I understand1065how dedicated the state fish and wildlife representatives are1066from Montana, from Wyoming, from North Dakota, South Dakota, I1067mean, all of the folks. As the Chair of the Western Governors'1068Association, I came to understand how dedicated those state1069officials are. I think there is a belief that when they come1070off of federal protection that they are unprotected. No, they1071are managed as they are, all the other species in the state, by1072the locals, who've got the closest data.1073    So yes, I pledge to work with you on this issue.1074    Senator Daines. Thank you, Governor.1075    The Biden Administration has been slow-walking three1076critical permits for coal mines in Montana. The Bull Mountains1077Mine, south of Roundup, the Rosebud Mine that supplies coal for1078Colstrip, and the Spring Creek Mine in Southeast Montana are1079all in desperate need right now to finalize permits. The Bull1080Mountains Mine has already had to lay off hard working1081Montanans because the Biden Office of Surface Mining has1082refused to finish the needed reviews. My question is, when1083confirmed, will you prioritize completing these permits so1084Montana families don't lose their jobs?1085    Mr. Burgum. Senator Daines, this is part of a larger crisis1086our nation is facing around electricity. We have a shortage of1087electricity, and especially, we have a shortage of baseload. We1088know that we have the technology to deliver clean coal. We are1089doing that in North Dakota. Senator Hoeven and others began1090these efforts over two decades ago. But we have an opportunity1091to decarbonize, produce clean coal, and with that produce1092reliable baseload for this country. And so, again, we1093absolutely would want to work with you on this issue because1094this is something that is critical to our national security.1095Without baseload, we are going to lose the AI arms race to1096China. And if we lose the AI arms race to China, then that has1097direct impacts on our national security and the future of this1098country.1099    Senator Daines. Mr. Chairman, one just final statement to1100read and then I will complete my questions.1101    I want to quickly close by highlighting the importance of a1102bill that I am working on with Senator King of Maine. We co-1103chair the National Parks Subcommittee. We are proud of the fact1104that no matter which way the gavel goes--it goes back and forth1105over time in the U.S. Senate--Angus King and I are always co-1106chairs, as it were, together, on behalf of our national parks.1107I am working with him to reauthorize the National Parks and1108Public Land Legacy Restoration Fund. This is critical to1109address the deferred maintenance challenge we face with our1110great public lands. President Trump signed the greatest1111conservation bill in 50 years when he signed the Great American1112Outdoors Act. And I thank Vice Chairman Heinrich for helping so1113much in getting that across the finish line. He signed that in11142020. I hope I can count on your support for reauthorizing this1115program.1116    Mr. Burgum. You can, absolutely. The Great American1117Outdoors Act, by President Trump, was a great step forward, but1118I know, from my own personal experience as Governor of North1119Dakota and working with the Theodore Roosevelt National Park,1120the amount of deferred maintenance that we have is probably1121even greater today across the park system than it was when that1122bill was passed. And so, we have to continue to invest in our1123national parks.1124    Senator Daines. Great. Thank you, Governor.1125    The Chairman. Senator Hirono.1126    Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1127    Welcome. As part of my responsibilities to ensure the1128fitness of nominees before any of the committees on which I1129sit, I ask the following two initial questions.1130    First, since you became a legal adult, have you ever made1131unwanted requests for sexual favors or committed any verbal or1132physical harassment or assault of a sexual nature?1133    Mr. Burgum. No, Senator, I have not.1134    Senator Hirono. Have you ever faced discipline or entered1135into a settlement relating to this kind of conduct?1136    Mr. Burgum. I have not.1137    Senator Hirono. We received your testimony late yesterday,1138and you noted that, ``President Trump's energy dominance vision1139will end wars abroad.'' And President Trump has directed you to1140expand oil and gas drilling on a massive scale, which will lead1141to increased burning of fossil fuels. Now, the scientific1142consensus is that burning fossil fuels is a primary human cause1143of climate change. In 2017, then Secretary of Defense James1144Mattis, appointed by then President Trump, told the Senate1145Armed Services Committee that, ``Climate change is impacting1146stability in areas of the world where our troops are1147operating.'' In 2014, Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel said1148that climate change is a critical national security threat and1149a threat multiplier.1150    Now, these are two Secretaries of Defense. They know1151something about war. Were you aware that they testified before1152the Senate Armed Services Committee a number of times that1153burning more fossil fuel is actually not going to result in the1154end of wars, but could very well exacerbate and cause wars?1155Were you aware of this testimony?1156    Mr. Burgum. Senator, no, I am not aware of that specific1157testimony, but I do know that within fossil fuels that the1158concern has been about emissions, and within emissions, we have1159the technology to do things like carbon capture to eliminate1160harmful emissions at the same time.1161    Senator Hirono. Well, the fact on the matter is that you1162have military leaders who acknowledge that climate change is a1163major issue, and for you to take the position that you are1164going to engage in actions that will result in the burning of1165more fossil fuel, it is troubling.1166    As Secretary of the Interior, it is your duty to see that1167the Department carries out its mission to protect and manage1168our nation's natural resources and cultural heritage. If you1169are ordered by the President to act in a manner that is counter1170to the Department's mission, or to the Constitution, such as1171drilling in Bears Ears National Monument, will you do as the1172President asks because he wants to drill in that monument?1173    Mr. Burgum. Senator, of course, as part of my sworn duty, I1174will follow the law and follow the Constitution, and so, you1175can count on that. And I haven't heard of any----1176    Senator Hirono. Well----1177    Mr. Burgum. Anything about President Trump wanting to do1178anything----1179    Senator Hirono. Well, he certainly wants to----1180    Mr. Burgum. Other than advancing energy production for the1181benefit of the American people----1182    Senator Hirono. We all know that the President wants to1183``drill, baby, drill,'' and in your testimony, you say that he1184has an energy dominance vision.1185    So I would ask you that, should you be confirmed, that you1186will have these kinds of matters that you will have to decide--1187are you going to drill in a monument? Are you going to protect1188our natural resources? Or are you going to drill, baby, drill?1189So I raise that as a concern with you going forward.1190    Compacts of Free Association: Last year, Congress renewed1191our Compacts of Free Association, and that comes within the1192purview of Interior. It involves Palau, Micronesia, and the1193Marshall Islands. I would like to get your commitment to1194implement the new Compacts of Free Association in accordance1195with the bipartisan law that was enacted last year.1196    Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator, these Pacific Islands, in1197addition to the three that you mentioned that are part of the1198Compact, but also the others that are under the Insular Areas1199of Interior, are all critically important to national security1200for the United States of America. All of them have important1201military implications.1202    Senator Hirono. Yes.1203    Mr. Burgum. All of these are places where U.S. sailors1204fought and died during World War II. And with the aggression1205that China is showing in the Pacific, it is more important that1206we support them more than ever. I know that Hawaii plays an1207important role, including in things like with medical care for1208those residents of those islands, and I think it is important1209that the Federal Government does its share as opposed to1210putting the load on the state.1211    Senator Hirono. Thank you. It sounds as though you have1212familiarity with the Compacts, for which I am gratified.1213    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1214    The Chairman. Thank you.1215    Senator Justice.1216    Senator Justice. Governor Doug, First Lady Kathryn,1217welcome. And my questions are going to be short and sweet, but1218I can tell you just this, that I think we share in the fact1219that energy--energy is the key. Energy, oh, gosh, I don't have1220my mic on. Okay. Good enough, I am talking loud enough anyway.1221    But nevertheless, energy is such a key, such a key that1222opens every door, in my opinion, every single door. And the1223world is starving for us, America, to lead the way. And I1224believe we share that thought. I believe we share the thought1225that electricity, if we don't watch out, will become a crisis1226like we can't imagine, and we absolutely need to be prepared1227and move forward in that. But we have got a problem along the1228way. Permitting has gotten totally outrageous, and absolutely,1229we all want it to be fair and proper and not endanger our1230environment. We all share in that.1231    But absolutely, I ask you, Governor, I ask you, please,1232tell us your thoughts on how we are going to approach this, how1233we are going to approach the issues with fish and wildlife and1234on and on and on. Please tell us.1235    Mr. Burgum. Well, I should say, Governor--now Senator--so1236great that you are here in the Senate, and what a fantastic job1237you did as Governor, and it was a pleasure serving alongside of1238you as another energy state. You have got everything, just--you1239get that we are in an energy crisis in our country, and the1240first place is actually related to electricity. Electricity is1241at the brink. Our grid is at a point where it could go1242completely unstable. We could be just months away from having1243skyrocketing prices for Americans. And of course, as we talked1244about in the AI arms race, we need electricity for1245manufacturing, and AI is manufacturing intelligence. And if we1246don't manufacture more intelligence than our adversaries, that1247affects every job, every company, and every industry. You1248understand this and we have got to get to work.1249    The permitting, right now, in some of the queues in FERC1250for electricity, it's seven years or longer. And it's a1251completely--that queue in FERC is 95 percent intermittent1252sources and only five percent baseload. We need baseload to be1253able to allow the renewables to be part of the system. We have1254got to have the balance between those two, or the grid, which1255is like a giant machine, just doesn't work. And so, we have got1256to get to work, and permitting reform and speeding permitting,1257right now, we have stacked the deck where we are creating1258roadblocks for people that want to do baseload, and we have got1259massive tax incentives for people that want to do intermittent1260and unreliable, when the balance is out of whack, and we have1261got to bring it back in line. And we can do that and still1262achieve the objectives that we want to have about having a1263cleaner environment, because the U.S. has done that. We are the1264one nation on the planet that has actually reduced1265CO2 over the last 20 years. We are the ones that1266have done it. China has doubled their CO2 emissions1267in the same time frame.1268    Senator Justice. Well, thank you, sir and thank you for1269your kind comments as well.1270    Now, if I could just ask one more question and just shift1271just a little bit. We all know the outdoors touches our soul,1272and I am an outdoorsman like crazy. I have enjoyed hunting and1273fishing all across this nation, but especially in my home State1274of West Virginia. And I welcome you to come to West Virginia to1275experience that--just what I am speaking of. But I would just1276say just this--we have an attack on our sport of hunting and1277fishing. You know, hunters absolutely do so much to contribute1278to all the goodness, all across all of our lands, to all the1279wildlife, to all the different things that happen within the1280sport of hunting. And I know you share, you know, my love, just1281as much as I do.1282    With all that being said, what will you do to ensure that1283we will perpetuate this unbelievable tradition to our youth, to1284our youth and all those to come? What will you do, sir?1285    Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator, in North Dakota, we have taken1286steps, as I know other states have done, to create youth1287hunting seasons, youth hunter education, make it more1288available, create more opportunities, as we have also done for1289disabled and wounded veterans, but when we have public lands1290and we have public access, the greatest conservationists in our1291country--and some are probably listening today--but whether1292it's the, you know, the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Mule1293Deer, Pheasants Forever, Ducks Unlimited, you name any of these1294organizations, they are the ones that raise the money that1295actually pour dollars into conservation in this country.1296Hunters, Safari Club, all of these different groups, and of1297course, President Roosevelt--Theodore Roosevelt--is one of the1298founders of Boone and Crockett. I mean, he was a hunter who1299also set the ethic for conservation for our country.1300    And so, these two things go hand-in-hand. You cannot1301separate hunting from the love of outdoors, respect for1302wildlife, and dollars that flow back into habitat and making1303sure that we have got the privilege of hunting for the public.1304It doesn't matter who you are. In North Dakota, you can get a1305$20 tag and go on a hunt that is just as amazing as if you1306were, you know, going to Africa. I mean, it is a miracle that1307we have in this country, one of the few countries that has1308that, something we have to fight to protect to preserve.1309    Senator Justice. Thank you, sir. And I have only got just1310one other comment. You know, President Trump is bringing to us1311amazing nominees, but in my book, this man, you know, just1312think just for one second--he is super smart. His track record1313is unbelievable. He has experience off the chart. If anybody is1314the pick of the litter, it has got to be this man. He has done1315an amazing job, but he has got courage like you can't imagine.1316Just think about this: he stood on one leg at the debate and1317absolutely, with a torn Achilles, and I have been a coach1318forever in basketball, and I have seen kids get a torn1319Achilles, and absolutely, it is one serious injury. How you did1320this, I will never know, but nevertheless, I give him kudos for1321courage beyond belief. Thank you so much, sir.1322    Mr. Burgum. Thank you, Senator.1323    The Chairman. Maybe you will tell us that someday. I assume1324it involved just biting on a leather strap until moments before1325you walked on the debate stand, but we can save that for1326another day.1327    Senator King.1328    Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I associate myself1329with the comments about sportsmen. Just several weeks ago, I1330accepted the chairmanship of the Congressional Sportsmen's1331Foundation, which I am greatly honored to do and look forward1332to working with you on those issues. I have visited your1333wonderful state, camped there, visited Minot with Senator1334Cramer, and I must say, Minot is the flattest place I have ever1335been in my life. One of the locals said the good thing about it1336is, if your dog runs away, you can still see him after three1337days.1338    [Laughter.]1339    Senator King. And I also want to compliment you. A lot of1340people talk about an all-of-the-above energy strategy. You did1341it. You implemented it in North Dakota. Over 30 percent--361342percent of your electricity comes from wind. And I hope one of1343the projects you might undertake when and if you are confirmed1344is to convince your boss that wind power is not all bad. He is1345well known for his opposition to wind power, but you know that1346the benefits are there. Of course, baseload is also important.1347Storage is important to balance the grid. I understand that.1348But coming from a state where 35, 36 percent of your1349electricity came from wind, I hope you can talk to the1350President about the fact that wind has its virtues and can1351contribute significantly because we are, as you note, facing a1352huge energy challenge over the next 15 to 20 years to support1353the knowledge economy.1354    Will you undertake that project?1355    Mr. Burgum. Senator King, certainly you have got great wind1356resources in Maine. We have got good wind resources in North1357Dakota. Not every state is lucky to have the resources that we1358do, where the wind, well, maybe that flat ground helps us on1359that--very few trees to stop the wind. But I would say the key1360here, you mentioned it, it is baseload versus the intermittent,1361because we have got to have the right balance and we maybe have1362tipped a little too far in one direction. So I think that is1363the key piece for us, the key short-term emergency.1364    Senator King. But you do see the value of wind power? A1365third of your state's electricity comes from that source.1366    Mr. Burgum. Yes, and most of that we export, and so, I1367think our neighbors are happy to have that. But I would also1368say that, again, we need an all-of-the-above strategy. It's1369what we have had in North Dakota.1370    Senator King. And a balanced grid.1371    Mr. Burgum. It's a balance, but we need more. We need more,1372and the thing we are short of most right now is baseload.1373    Senator King. Well, Maine has an asset similar to yours,1374offshore. And the Department of the Interior executed several1375leases recently. I hope I can have your commitment to continue1376with those leases. They will produce enough energy for all the1377homes in Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont. It's an enormous1378resource in the Gulf of Maine that can provide significant1379energy. As you may know, the capacity factor of offshore wind1380is significantly higher than terrestrial wind. So I hope that1381your Department will continue with the projects that were1382already underway. Will you commit to that?1383    Mr. Burgum. I am not familiar with every project that the1384Interior has underway, but I will certainly be taking a look at1385all of those, and if they make sense and they are already in1386law, then they will continue. I think the key is, and I think1387President Trump has been very clear in his statements, that he1388is concerned about the significant amount of tax incentives1389that have gone toward some forms of energy that have helped1390exacerbate this imbalance that we are seeing right now, today.1391    Senator King. You talked briefly to some of the other1392questions about permitting reform, and I was involved in the1393discussions with Senator Barrasso, Senator Manchin, and others1394about the permitting bill that, unfortunately, we couldn't get1395across the goal line at the end of last Congress. I presume1396that permitting reform not only is for generation projects, but1397transmission. Do you appreciate the difficulty of permitting1398transmission assets, particularly in the West?1399    Mr. Burgum. Well, yes and I think that this is one of the1400challenges of our time, and it's one of the challenges that we1401need to undertake, because whether it's a transmission line, a1402pipeline, whatever it happens to be trying to get built, it1403just takes too long in our country. And if we don't have--it's1404one thing to be able to generate that electricity--but if we1405don't have the ability to transmit it to the places where it's1406needed, that is going to be a problem.1407    Senator King. Exactly.1408    Senator Daines has already mentioned the America the1409Beautiful Act that he and I have introduced. It's a refresh of1410the Great American Outdoors Act, one of the most successful1411initiatives of the Trump Administration. I remember working1412with Secretary Zinke on that project. So I am gratified to hear1413your support for that proposal.1414    A final point we talked about is the backlog of maintenance1415in the national parks and public lands. One of the problems is,1416the Department has chronically underfunded maintenance on an1417ongoing basis. In other words, we are being asked to fix a1418backlog that, frankly, should not have existed. And I hope that1419you will work with the National Park Service and the Office of1420Management and Budget to be sure that a sufficient fund is1421allocated to ongoing maintenance so we don't continue to dig1422the hole deeper.1423    Mr. Burgum. Well, I agree with you on that. And this is one1424of the things, when I came in as a business guy into1425government, I was shocked to find out that we, in North Dakota,1426did not have appropriate formulas for funding deferred1427maintenance. I mean, everyone was happy to approve1428appropriations to build new buildings, but it was tough to get1429a dime to take care of the ones we already have. And I think1430this is something we are going to have to take a look at1431procedurally within Interior. I know that we have got over, you1432know, 2,400 locations, I am told, in terms of where we have1433people stationed.1434    Senator King. Right.1435    Mr. Burgum. We just have to make sure that not just the1436national parks, but across the whole Department, but we have1437got to get the formulas right because we are creating1438liabilities for future generations if we are not taking care of1439that deferred maintenance.1440    Senator King. I can tell you that the formula right now is1441not right. So I encourage you to take that step. Thank you very1442much, Governor, for joining us, and we look forward to hearing1443from you further in this hearing.1444    Thank you.1445    Mr. Burgum. Thank you, Senator.1446    The Chairman. Senator McCormick.1447    Senator McCormick. Governor, good to see you. Kathryn, good1448to see you. We had a great meeting, I guess a week or two ago,1449and I promise to visit the baddest Badlands in the Dakotas. I1450am looking forward to that. And I know we have all these1451energy-state governors here, but in Pennsylvania, we like to1452think that the path to energy dominance goes through the1453Keystone State, so I am so glad to have you here before us1454today.1455    When we met, we talked about an energy and innovation1456summit that I am planning to do later this year where we bring1457in energy companies, AI companies, as well as big investors,1458and an opportunity to really celebrate and also make more1459progress on President Trump's vision of energy dominance. I was1460happy to talk to you about that, and look forward to working1461with you and Secretary Wright on that, and just hoping I can1462start with getting your support to work with me closely on that1463and make that a reality.1464    Mr. Burgum. Well, I think it's a great idea, Senator. And I1465think it is absolutely true, the Keystone State is the key, and1466there is such a resource there. I mean wow, so few Americans1467understand that Pennsylvania is now producing 20 percent of our1468nation's natural gas. And of course, the fact that innovators1469in the private sector invested--the whole shale revolution that1470got created in this country has been a miracle. I mean, we went1471from being one of the largest importers of energy to one of the1472largest exporters. And at the time, you know, Russia, you know,1473they ran a campaign with all of the CyOps they have--we can't1474be naive. You know, they pounded Europe for ten years of1475getting everybody in Europe and Germany to shut down all their1476baseload so they could buy natural gas from Russia, then they1477invade--Russia invades Ukraine. The price goes up. Russia makes1478bank like they have never made before and they are funding a1479war against us. Germany then rushes to try to reopen their1480baseload power plants. They are doing all that. If America1481hadn't come to the rescue with LNG exports from our country to1482Western Europe, this thing could have escalated even beyond the1483tragedy that we see today in Ukraine.1484    Senator McCormick. I couldn't agree more, and that really1485relates to my second question, which is, Pennsylvania, as you1486mentioned, the second largest natural gas producer, and yet,1487America's allies, even states across our great country cannot1488get access to LNG. So we need to really expand LNG exports, and1489that would be a huge win and create a lot of great jobs for1490Americans and a lot of great jobs for Pennsylvania. So as Chair1491of the National Energy Dominance Council, how will you work1492with the Administration to increase natural gas production and1493get new export terminals online in places like Pennsylvania as1494quickly as possible?1495    Mr. Burgum. Well, of course, I learned in the private1496sector, in public companies you don't want to make forward-1497looking statements, and the Energy Council is yet to be1498created--hopefully by an EO, you know, early in this1499Administration. But one thing I would say that's not a forward-1500looking statement, it's just a fact, and I talked about it with1501Senator King, but you know, we have got, you know, 80 percent1502of the homes in Maine are still heating their homes with1503heating oil. It's 41 percent in New Hampshire. And we cannot1504get a pipeline with clean U.S. natural gas into New England to1505states like, you know, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Maine?1506    And at the time of the Russian invasion, not only had1507Western Europe become dependent, we were offloading, you know,1508hundreds of thousands of barrels of dirty Russian heating oil1509into New England.1510    Senator McCormick. Boston Harbor, right?1511    Mr. Burgum. Yeah, so, I mean, it's like we have a national1512security issue and we have got to be able to get clean U.S.1513energy to every state. We need the transportation networks,1514whether it's pipelines or transmission lines to do that. We1515can't be--at a time of global risk like we are now in global1516national security--in a position where we are exposed to supply1517chains that depend on our adversaries, whether it's critical1518minerals with China or whether it's heating oil from Russia or1519uranium from Russia, we cannot be dependent on them. We have1520got the resources here. We need to develop them.1521    Senator McCormick. You know, like many energy-producing1522states, Pennsylvania has thousands of orphaned wells that need1523to be plugged. Many states have programs to plug these wells1524that have worked pretty well over many years. I am concerned1525that the federal funding that is available for that is being1526held up for a number of these projects because of red tape. And1527so, as Secretary, will you streamline these requirements so1528states like mine can quickly access the much-needed funding to1529plug these wells?1530    Mr. Burgum. Well, this is a--I don't want to say a passion1531project, because I am passionate about a lot of things--but the1532federal legislation which was put in place after the pandemic1533was modeled after something we created in North Dakota, and I1534want to thank Senator Hoeven and Senator Cramer for their work1535on doing that. Pennsylvania, of course, you guys have been1536producing and drilling oil wells since the 1880s. North1537Dakota's first one wasn't until 1951, so ours were all easier1538to track. We have got ours down now in North Dakota to under1539200, and there are other states that have tens of thousands of1540abandoned orphaned wells. And this is something from an1541environmental standpoint that we have got to take care of. The1542technology is there. We can clean it up. And there are ways to1543do that and it can be, you know, great for the local economy,1544great for Reclamation. There is a way to do it. I have got a1545lot of knowledge in this area and you can count on my support1546to make sure that we have got a program to take care of this.1547    Senator McCormick. I look forward to working with you on1548that.1549    Mr. Burgum. Part of it, you know, the U.S. can be energy1550dominant, but we have to maintain the path which we are on. We1551do it cleaner, safer, and smarter than anybody else in the1552world, and we have to maintain that.1553    Senator McCormick. Thank you.1554    The Chairman. Senator Cortez Masto.1555    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you.1556    Governor, good to see you again. Thank you for meeting with1557me. Welcome to your wife, Kathryn. It's a good name. Thank you1558very much.1559    We talked a little bit about this, but I want to bring this1560to the public as well because Senator Lee and I do have a lot1561in common when it comes to our public lands, and most of the1562lands in the state of Nevada, about 85 percent, are owned by1563the Federal Government. And he is right, we have to manage not1564only our housing issues, but economic development, unlike some1565of the states--your state, where you own most of the land. And1566so, we are always looking for that partnership with our federal1567partners. And Nevada has a successful track record when it1568comes to bringing different parties together to create that1569balance of releasing public land for that needed development,1570conserving lands, addressing various land management needs. And1571an example of that collaboration is my Southern Nevada lands1572bill. And so, I am hopeful that, based on your comments already1573to my colleagues, that you believe in a balanced land use, and1574that the key to that is local consultation and state1575consultation. I agree. So I am hoping that you will be willing1576to work with us as we address, in Nevada, our housing needs,1577which is an issue, as well as economic development, and work1578with me on my Southern Nevada lands bill and other lands bills1579in the State of Nevada. Would you commit to doing that?1580    Mr. Burgum. Yes, absolutely, Senator. I know that you,1581other than Alaska, you guys are in the top of the list in terms1582of having the most amount of federal land. You have some of the1583same challenges around affordable housing that Senator Lee is1584seeing in Utah, with the great success of population growth in1585Southern Nevada, and I think, again, there are some creative1586ideas about land exchanges.1587    You have thought through it. I can tell. I would look1588forward to working with you.1589    Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. I appreciate that.1590    I also want to touch on a comment that you made that tax1591incentives going toward some forms of energy creates an1592imbalance for baseload. That's what I have heard you say, and1593you made that comment when we were together as well. Let me ask1594you this, because in Nevada, it is important for us to1595absolutely have an opportunity to support public-private1596partnerships in clean energy. I would imagine you support1597public-private partnerships?1598    Mr. Burgum. Oh, I think it's great whenever we can get more1599market incentives built into programs, or if we spend a tax1600dollar, if we can match it with two or three from the private1601sector. That is one of the things we did in North Dakota to1602really, you know, both grow our economy and extend the return1603on investment for every taxpayer dollar invested.1604    Senator Cortez Masto. And I appreciate that. And so, with1605that said, there is a role for the Federal Government to be a1606part of incentivizing and supporting those public-private1607partnerships. Would you agree with that?1608    Mr. Burgum. Yes, where appropriate, absolutely.1609    Senator Cortez Masto. All right. And in Nevada, because of1610the Inflation Reduction Act, as well as the Bipartisan1611Infrastructure package, we have benefited, not only in Nevada1612with jobs and growing our economy, but in contributing to our1613national security in bringing back manufacturing to this1614country because we have critical mineral mining going on in1615Nevada thanks to those pieces of legislation. We have the1616complete ecosystem for battery--not only manufacturing, but1617storage and recycling as well. And our energy now is both gas1618as well as solar. Solar is really one of the number one areas1619that we have in the state for our energy needs, and that is why1620battery storage is important.1621    So let me ask you this, and maybe I am wrong about this,1622but isn't the combination of renewables plus battery storage1623baseload?1624    Mr. Burgum. Yes, that is certainly the future, and again,1625as I said before, all of the above. We need all forms of1626electricity. We are short of electricity in this country. We1627just have to make sure that we have the balance because if we1628don't have the baseload, the intermittent--and I will call it1629unreliable, because the sun doesn't always shine and the wind1630doesn't always blow. Until we get storage, and storage is still1631a few years out to where we are going to be able to operate it1632at grid scale to be able to make that work--until we get to1633that time, we really have to have two systems. We have to----1634    Senator Cortez Masto. I agree, but if we don't have the1635incentives continue that kind of research and making sure that1636is happening, because it's happening in Nevada right now--1637storage.1638    Mr. Burgum. Yes.1639    Senator Cortez Masto. I have been to the facilities. We see1640it. If we don't have those incentives, then we are never going1641to get there. And so, my concern is, and what I am hearing is,1642under this Administration, a shift from those incentives for1643renewables back to fossil fuels. And that is not going to do1644any of us, really, in this country a benefit to--at the end of1645the day, leaning into clean energy, being dominant in that1646space of clean energy, protecting our national security when it1647comes to that clean energy as well. So I do think there is a1648balanced approach here, but not one at the expense of another.1649And I am hopeful, based on your experience as a governor, and1650what I just heard, and I know about your state because you1651found that balanced approach for energy, and every state is1652going to be different based on their geography, that you are1653going to work with states as well and not take away an1654opportunity where they can have that balanced approach for1655energy.1656    Would you be willing to do that, even stand up to the1657Administration, when it somehow is not a benefit, what they are1658trying to do to a state, like the state of Nevada? My1659Republican governor and I are in lock-step when it comes to1660moving forward in this space.1661    Mr. Burgum. Well, there are certainly big opportunities in1662Nevada, whether it's solar, geothermal--there are a lot of1663opportunities--critical minerals--lots of things to work on.1664But I would say that the benefit to every American is, if we1665have baseload that's reliable that works, that's part of how we1666have affordability. I mean, every American today is paying more1667for their electricity than they were before. So the current1668policy is hurting every American. It hasn't happened yet, but1669it's coming soon--more and more brownouts and blackouts because1670we aren't going to have the balance on the grid. And I think1671every senator and every governor is going to be hearing from1672every consumer. And so, this is something we have to work on1673together as a priority to make sure that we restore a balance1674to the grid, and that means that we, like you said, when you1675take a look at a FERC queue that has got 95 percent1676intermittent and unreliable, that probably tells us we are a1677little bit out of balance. And we just have to bring it back1678and then keep moving forward.1679    But great opportunities to work with you in Nevada. You1680have got some special opportunities and resources. And I would1681say critical minerals, which you mentioned, I am glad you1682brought them up, but you know, in the IRA, we, you know, passed1683all kinds of incentives for electric vehicles at a time when1684China is controlling 85 percent of the critical minerals in the1685world. So I mean, incenting something which increases our1686dependence on a major adversary, because we are in a cold war1687with China, and we are in a cyber war every day with them. I1688mean, right now, we are in a cyber war with them, North Korea,1689Russia, Iran. Every day we are being attacked by these folks.1690    Senator Cortez Masto. So you don't support the credits for1691electric vehicles, and that would be something that you would1692support the Administration repealing?1693    Mr. Burgum. Well, I support economics and markets, and if1694you add up the EV totals, it's over $900 per ton of1695CO2 avoided. And in North Dakota, we can give you a1696liquid fuel with zero carbon in it for 60 bucks. And so, we are1697doing that today with carbon sequestration for biofuels and so1698it's like----1699    Senator Cortez Masto. I know my time is up, and I look1700forward to talking to you about this, but thank you, I1701appreciate it.1702    Mr. Burgum. Yes.1703    The Chairman. Senator Hoeven.1704    Senator Hoeven. I think that interchange demonstrates the1705kind of really high-level discussion that Governor Burgum1706brings to these issues. I mean, he really will work through1707these issues, and applies a real analytical approach to problem1708solving. I think that is really important for both sides of the1709aisle. I think that is something that people are going to very1710much appreciate about him.1711    Federal law requires that on public lands there be multiple1712use. Recently, the BLM promulgated rules that violate that law,1713very clearly, in my opinion. Do you support multiple use on1714federal lands? And I know you do, but I want you to express it1715for the record, and then I want you to tell us why it's so1716important that we have multiple use on public lands, not just1717in our state, but across this country.1718    Mr. Burgum. Well, thank you, Senator Hoeven. The answer is1719obviously yes, but this is the public lands, and particularly1720when we talk about aspects of BLM, this is essential to local1721economies, and whether that is, you know, grazing rights that1722were a part of this, whether it's recreation opportunities and1723access, whether it's timber, or whether it's oil and gas and1724mineral production that supports local economies and supports1725our country, this land was put away for the benefit, the use,1726and the enjoyment of the American people. Not every acre of1727federal land is a national park or a wilderness area. Some of1728those areas we have to absolutely protect for their precious1729stuff, but the rest of it, this is America's balance sheet, and1730I think every American during a Presidential campaign finds1731out, and gets pounded into their head that we have got $361732trillion in debt. We have got all this debt. We have all this1733debt. Oh, Americans, you owe part of this national debt--$361734trillion. This is on you. We never talk about the assets, and1735the assets are the land and minerals.1736    This agency, the Department of the Interior, has got close1737to 500 million acres of surface, 700 million acres of1738subsurface, and over two billion acres of offshore--two1739billion. That is the balance sheet of America. And if we were a1740company, they would look at us and say, wow, you are really1741restricting your balance sheet and do you know what those1742assets are worth? We don't. I believe we ought to have a deep1743inventory of all the assets in America. We ought to understand,1744maybe, what are our assets--$100 trillion, $200 trillion? We1745could be in great shape as a country, but then, if you said,1746wow, if we had $200 trillion in assets just sitting there, but1747we restrict access, we don't cut a tree, you know, we don't use1748them for recreation, and then we don't develop the minerals1749sustainably and in a smart way, then we are getting super-low1750return for the American people. It is our responsibility to get1751a return for the American people when we do that.1752    When we did that in North Dakota, you started it as1753Governor, and on the Land Board we have got, in our little1754state, we have got a $12 billion endowment for K-12 for about1755125,000 kids. I mean, we had an endowment bigger than most1756universities in the country for our K-12 system because we1757learned how to utilize this stuff. And guess what? We still1758have among the cleanest air, cleanest water, greatest1759recreation in the nation. This is the time of abundance. We can1760do all of it.1761    Senator Hoeven. Yeah, and so, it really is about working1762with people in all these different uses. And that is true with1763working in Indian Country on the reservations as well, right?1764Empowering the local tribe, you know, to make those decisions1765about how they use the land and all the beneficial ways that1766they can, right?1767    Mr. Burgum. Yes, well, in our state, I mean, MHA Nation,1768the Mandan, Hidatsa, Arikara, the Three Affiliated Tribes, one1769of the great energy tribes in our country. These guys have, I1770say, the hardest job in America. It's not being a governor or a1771senator--the hardest job in America is a tribal chairman1772because you get a whole other layer of federal bureaucracy on1773top of you, and they show up at MHA and they say, hey, you guys1774are doing too much flaring. And then they say, well, we1775wouldn't be if you would give us a permit to actually do a gas1776gathering line. So the same government that tells them that1777they are flaring too much won't give them the permit to do the1778thing that we can do in the rest of the state. So they get1779constrained.1780    Senator Hoeven. In addition to serving as Secretary of1781Interior, there is also the role as the leader of the National1782Energy Council--very important. Talk for a minute, for the time1783we have left, and maybe even go over a little bit--the Chairman1784is really a good guy. So talk about how you implement a game1785plan to achieve that goal of energy dominance that President1786Trump wants for this nation.1787    Mr. Burgum. Well, again, I think I don't want to get caught1788in making forward-looking statements because the council will1789be formed by an EO, but I think that the intention that you can1790read in President Trump's public statements is very simple. He1791wants to cut red tape. He wants to have more affordable energy1792for us. He wants to sell energy to our friends and allies so1793they don't have to buy it from our adversaries. That is how we1794reduce tensions in the world. And then, we have got to make1795sure that we are doing it in a smart way because he talks all1796the time about clean air and clean water.1797    So he basically is talking about the approach that we are1798talking about here at this Committee. This Committee will be1799deeply involved in helping set those policies, but it's an all-1800of-the-above, go get it done and stop getting in the way of1801ourselves, and particularly, with this AI--the AI battle.1802People don't understand that what is coming right now with the1803AI revolution is going to happen during President Trump's term,1804where when we have generalized intelligence that we can1805manufacture, it's going to affect our ability to compete with1806every other power. And China, they permitted more than two coal1807plants a week in the first half of 2023 and they are already1808the world's largest emitter.1809    So we are competing against someone who is going to create1810more electricity, produce more AI, and this could be how we1811lose the cold war with them if we don't get enough. We have to1812do it here. And we are a country that believes in reclamation.1813We believe in following labor laws. China--child labor, no1814reclamation, no care about the environment. They are a tough1815competitor right now in terms of their ability to produce1816electricity. So we have got to get going. We have to cut red1817tape. And we have got to realize that if you shut down U.S.1818energy production here, it doesn't help the global environment.1819That's a false trade-off. It doesn't help because somebody else1820produces it someplace else less cleanly than we do.1821    Senator Hoeven. Thank you.1822    The Chairman. Senator Cantwell.1823    Senator Cantwell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Governor Burgum,1824congratulations on your nomination, and I hope to run through a1825couple of questions here. So help me out in your brevity, if1826possible.1827    I know you have already--I know the Ranking Member, anyway,1828and maybe even the Chairman, brought up our beautiful outdoor1829economy, which we have heard from your Senator that apparently,1830you are a big outdoorsman yourself. But not only will you1831become steward of over 20 percent of the land in the United1832States, but some of the most beautiful, iconic places in1833America, and these are an economic juggernaut. They are in my1834state, if you think about Mount Rainier or Olympic National1835Park or the Hanford Reach or many other places. The outdoor1836recreation economy generates $1.2 trillion in economic output1837every year--$1.2 trillion--and accounts for five million jobs,1838and I believe, continues to grow at an incredible clip that1839when you think about economic development in some of our more1840rural communities, it doesn't take a lot to add a little bit of1841infrastructure and then the next thing you know, you are off to1842the races as to making a tourism and an economic impact to1843these economies. I think in North Dakota it was your third1844largest industry, generating $1 billion and 14,000 jobs, and1845you actually created an Office of Outdoor Recreation. Good for1846you--good for you.1847    So I think you get it. But now when we talk about oil,1848first of all--well, first, I want to make sure on the public1849lands, will you support more input in outdoor recreation1850economies and gateway communities, and will you fully utilize1851the LWCF and support the conservation legacy bills that we have1852passed?1853    Mr. Burgum. Well, of course. First of all, in your comments1854on outdoor recreation, I agree completely on the importance of1855this. And it's not only good for the economy, it's also good1856for the health of Americans. I mean, I think one thing that we1857understand is that we just need more people to get off their1858devices, get outdoors, get engaged, understand the importance1859of our land, our wildlife, our soil health, all of the aspects1860of it. And again, you know, we are facing a mental health and1861addiction crisis in our country, and part of the answer is, for1862many people, is that, you know, getting that connection back to1863the outdoors. So I support that completely, and would look1864forward to working with you on your other issues as well.1865    Senator Cantwell. Great. So you support the LWCF that we1866passed in continuing to support those funds?1867    Mr. Burgum. Some of those acronyms I am less familiar with,1868so I would look forward to learning more about them, but----1869    Senator Cantwell. Okay, well, we will get you a question1870for the record.1871    Mr. Burgum. Okay.1872    Senator Cantwell. Because it's vitally important, we1873believe. We think we broke through finally, and the reason why1874I am asking this is because this is a lead up to the next1875question.1876    Mr. Burgum. Okay.1877    Senator Cantwell. You are for this very aggressive oil and1878lease strategy, I think, or maybe you are going to take this1879helm over, you know, with a group of people and say we need to1880do more on oil and gas. Part of our efforts have been to show1881that these federal lands are very important in an outdoor1882economy. And so, how many areas that we have already leased for1883oil and gas that aren't being used, why don't we start there?1884Why don't we just start with those, the leases that are already1885there? Why don't we start with that?1886    Mr. Burgum. Well, I think I wouldn't use the term that I1887was for aggressive, I have never stated that. I am for1888following the law. In the current Administration, in North1889Dakota, for the first time since Harry Truman, the quarterly1890lease sales were not held, as required by law. It didn't happen1891for two years. We ended up having to sue the Federal Government1892just to follow the law. So I think the starting place is for us1893to go back to, you know, following the law on these. And then1894again, we always want to prioritize those areas that have the1895most resource opportunity for America with the least impact on1896lands that are important. And I think that is a pretty simple1897formula to be able to figure that out, given the scale of the1898amount of public lands we have. We can do a lot more without1899touching or even being visible to any of the people that are1900concerned about land use.1901    Senator Cantwell. So you would prioritize the existing1902leases?1903    Mr. Burgum. I am not sure if I understand the----1904    Senator Cantwell. A juxtapose to this conversation, which1905we have had many times in this Committee--oh, let's expand more1906leases, you know, that we don't have right now. I am sure the1907Chairman would probably, we could get into a very long1908discussion here about Bears Ears, particularly. I wasn't for1909expanding oil and gas leasing into Bears Ears. It's a1910beautiful, protected area. I personally think that the outdoor1911economy is a juggernaut. I don't want offshore drilling off the1912coast of Washington. I have got a marine sanctuary. Why in1913God's name--I have Cascadia fault line. I mean, I could have1914devastation to an economy that is paying dividends. Why would I1915want to do that?1916    So I am just saying one of the things that would be helpful1917to hear from you is that you believe in prioritizing on federal1918land the leases that are already there as opposed to now going1919and saying, okay, let's get a big map and open up all federal1920land to new leasing, because your point about efficiency--the1921most efficient thing is to go after what you already have.1922    Mr. Burgum. Well, I am going to have to, before I can make1923an affirmative statement that I agree with you, would have to1924understand, because what I have seen in my time as Governor is1925not that we have existing, but we are actually restricting1926legal access for development or timber or oil and gas or1927whatever on public lands today----1928    Senator Cantwell. Okay.1929    Mr. Burgum [continuing]. By illegally not holding the lease1930sales that should have been held. So I am not even--I am not--1931--1932    Senator Cantwell. Okay, my time is up, and I am now in the1933red. So I am going to get cut off here. But I will submit1934something for you for the record on that. I am sure I will1935submit something on fire and CLT and maybe you and I can have a1936discussion about what I think really would help us move forward1937on some of those issues.1938     But I also, just for the record, on tribal sovereignty,1939you believe in tribal sovereignty, you believe in tribal1940consultation, which doesn't mean you just pick up the phone and1941have one conversation. Tribal consultation means you actually--1942when the Federal Government says, hey, so much money needs to1943go to tribes, that you actually figure out the plan for that to1944happen.1945    Mr. Burgum. Well, tribal consultation to me as Governor of1946North Dakota has meant actually spending time, going to the1947tribes, listening, sometimes listening for hours to really1948understand what the issues are and then in getting to the1949people ahead of time and then working on things that are1950important. We achieved MOUs on law enforcement. I mean, some of1951the scarcest and most devastating law enforcement in this1952country right now is the lack of BIA agents on federal land. I1953mean, some of the tribal reservations have become harbors for1954criminal organizations because they know that we don't have1955enough resource there and then our local county sheriffs to1956state police, in many cases, didn't have jurisdiction. That is1957just one. Healthcare is another. I mean----1958    Senator Cantwell. Yes, thank you. I'm sorry. The Chairman1959is going to cut me off. But thank you so much for that answer.1960I appreciate it. That is kind of stewardship we need with our1961partnership between us and Indian Country. Thank you.1962    The Chairman. Thank you.1963    We are going to go to Senator Murkowski now. I do want to1964interject here. There is no significant oil in the Bears Ears.1965There is no plan to drill for oil in the Bears Ears. I am not1966aware of any significant oil reserves. Look, there are cattle1967that graze in that area. There are recreation purposes. There1968are some other things that go on there. I don't know who came1969up with this idea that somebody is getting ready to drill in1970the Bears Ears National Monument. It's paranoid fantasy. That's1971not a thing.1972    The dispute here is about the process by which it was1973designated--unilateral Presidential action taken without1974consultation, and to the extent there was any input, it was1975negative input, but it affected local people in a way that1976affects their access to recreation, their ability to continue1977to graze their cattle as they have, and other reasons. So let's1978just keep those facts straight.1979    Senator Murkowski.1980    Senator Cantwell. Happy news to hear that you don't want to1981drill there.1982    The Chairman. Well, yes, I mean, there is no oil there, so.1983    Senator Murkowski.1984    Senator Murkowski. Well, we got oil.1985    [Laughter.]1986    Senator Murkowski. We got oil.1987    Mr. Burgum. Yes, you do.1988    Senator Murkowski. It's good to see you and it's good to1989have these robust conversations. As you and I discussed, part1990of our challenge in Alaska is not lack of resource, whether it1991is oil or gas, coal, whether it's our renewables with1992everything from, yes, wind, the geothermal, even solar, yes,1993tidal power, we have got it all, but our big challenge, as you1994know, is access. And it has been noted that there are several1995states where the Department of the Interior has probably a1996disproportionate impact. It doesn't do my heart any good to1997oftentimes refer to the Secretary of Interior as Alaska's1998landlord. But we pretty much have to go to Interior to ask for1999permission to do anything. And this is regardless of what our2000statehood compact says, regardless of ANILCA, ANCSA, the laws2001that have a direct impact to us.2002    So it's good to be able to have a conversation with you as2003the nominee for the Department of the Interior and knowing that2004you have the scope of knowledge and experience that you bring2005to these issues. I love the fact that you are talking about2006America's balance sheet, including assets that we have, such as2007lands and minerals. Part of the challenge that we have in2008Alaska is that oftentimes when we talk about our nation's2009inventory of assets, we are not on the map. We are not included2010in the surveys. And we are told, well, it's going to be hard to2011assess that. Well, yes, but look at it from the business2012perspective. Just because it's hard to assess your assets, you2013think you are going to keep them off of that ledger, off that2014balance sheet? So as we are talking about these, recognize that2015we not only have what we know we have, we probably have three,2016and four, and five, and ten times more. We just need to be able2017to do that assessment. So I am looking forward to that kind of2018engagement with you.2019    We have a lot of work to do with the Department of the2020Interior. You and I have had a chance to go over many of these2021issues. But again, so much of it is about access. And the first2022question that I am going to ask--or the first commitment that I2023am going to ask of you--is one that I can guarantee that nobody2024around the panel has mentioned, and this has to do with polar2025bears. The Biden Administration has done a lot of things that2026most Alaskans don't appreciate, and last week we added another2027thing to the list. We learned Interior is not going to finish2028its revised incidental take regulations, these ITRs, for North2029Slope activities. And it's going to leave this very routine2030renewal of current letters of authorization as unfinished2031business.2032    Well, when you leave those authorizations as unfinished2033business, it means that the business of what is going on in the2034North Slope is put on pause, put on hold. So I need your2035commitment that you will work with Alaskans, particularly the2036Inupiat people up there, the North Slope Borough up there, on2037basically all things polar bear.2038    Mr. Burgum. Well, I will be happy to do that, and as you2039know better than anyone, Senator, I think close to half of the2040land and subsurface and offshore that Interior controls is in2041Alaska.2042    Senator Murkowski. Yes.2043    Mr. Burgum. So you can't--Interior, you may view as a2044landlord, but I would view Alaska as one of the biggest assets2045this country has and one of the biggest responsibilities of2046Interior, and I look forward to working with you.2047    Senator Murkowski. That is exactly what I was hoping you2048would say, recognizing the--really, the significance there. And2049I don't want the Department of the Interior to be a landlord. I2050want you to be a partner. I want you to be a partner with us as2051we determine how we achieve the balance that we talk about in2052this Committee, because we are just as proud of our outdoor2053activities. You have had an opportunity, firsthand. I love your2054story about the time that you spent in Alaska. We, of course,2055welcome you back anytime, all the time. But we have been able2056to access our resources, whether it's timber, or whether it's2057oil, and still provide for a place that most would say, this is2058a ``where I want to go before I die'' type of location. So I2059think we are doing something right there.2060    I need to alert you, as well as my colleagues, and when we2061talk about abundance, we have it in Alaska, but when you can't2062access it--we are now in a situation in my state, in the South2063Central portion, where pretty much 75 to 80 percent of the2064people actually are living in this region where the energy, the2065natural gas that we have been relying on out of Cook Inlet, is2066dwindling in its supply. We are talking, as we speak, about2067building an import terminal to import liquefied natural gas2068from Canada to keep the lights on and to keep homes warm in2069Alaska, where we have unquantifiable reserves of natural gas.2070We just need to figure out how we are going to be able to2071commercialize this. So we need the help to unleash the2072opportunities that we have, to only allow Alaska to have that2073energy independence that we so rightfully should have, but also2074to be able to help not only our country, but our friends and2075allies.2076    And we have had plenty of time to talk about it. My time is2077expired. I am hoping we are going to have another round because2078I don't want to submit questions for the record to you. I want2079the opportunity to just be able to put it out on the record2080now. So, good to be able to welcome you here. You didn't have2081to answer any of that, but I just need you to come back to2082Alaska soon.2083    Mr. Burgum. Okay, I look forward to that.2084    The Chairman. Senator Hickenlooper.2085    Senator Hickenlooper. You know, I am going to yield to the2086Senior Senator from California because he has got a thing on2087the floor he has got to do.2088    The Chairman. Senator Padilla.2089    Senator Padilla. Thank you, Mr. Chair.2090    Governor, good to see you again. I appreciate the time in2091my office a few weeks back, and greetings to your wife,2092Kathryn. We can't do the jobs that we do without the support2093and love of our spouses.2094    My time is limited. Not sure if we will have a second2095round. There are a number of issues that I am going to try to2096get to. If I don't, I will be submitting questions for the2097record. Issues like tribal sovereignty--that has come up2098before, and your thoughts on our trust and treaty obligations2099as a country. Public lands--we have had some recent progress2100and exciting announcements in California that we would like to2101continue to build on and not go backwards on trying to get to2102some water system.2103    But let me begin with some of the more urgent questions and2104issues in California. Los Angeles, specifically, as we have all2105seen the devastation of recent fires in Southern California. As2106we speak here today, more than 40,000 acres burned, 12,0002107structures plus destroyed, more than two dozen people who have2108perished--that number is probably going to grow. It has been2109one of the most destructive natural disasters in Los Angeles2110history. As Governor, you had an experience, not at this scale,2111but in 2024, you requested a major disaster declaration to2112assist in the recovery from historic wildfires that ravaged2113across Northwest North Dakota. And President Biden, as I2114understand it, approved it quickly and without conditions. Is2115that correct?2116    Mr. Burgum. Yes.2117    Senator Padilla. So do you believe federal disaster aid2118should come with or without conditions?2119    Mr. Burgum. Well, I think each situation would vary. But2120first of all, let me just say that I want to extend, on behalf2121of Kathryn and I, you know, our empathy and sympathy to anybody2122that has lost their home, lost their lives, lost a loved one.2123We have friends that have lived in the area that have lost2124their homes, the homes they raised their kids in for 30 years,2125every piece of memorabilia and memory that they had, gone, only2126getting out with the shirt on their back, in talking to those2127individuals directly. And as it happens, our daughter was in LA2128for an event. The event was canceled. Kathryn had flown out2129there, so both of them also had to evacuate as the fires were2130encroaching in that part of the city. So our family, part of2131our family, saw it firsthand. And again, it's just--urban2132wildfire is something that we, as a country, we need to think,2133and I say each situation is different because where you talked2134about in North Dakota, it was largely rural, largely2135grasslands--very, very different.2136    Senator Padilla. And we have experienced both, but please2137extend my offer to support assistance in any way, any of my2138constituents that are friends or relatives of your family.2139    For the record, there have never been strings attached to2140disaster relief, and I certainly hope this is not the first2141case. So I would ask, as this plays out in Congress over the2142next several months, if you are fortunate enough to be2143confirmed as Interior Secretary, and you wouldn't be the one2144deciding on whether or not to grant disaster declarations, but2145the Department is significant, particularly when it comes to2146wildfire response. Would you commit to responding to every2147disaster with as much support and resources possible,2148regardless of which state or jurisdiction the disaster is in?2149    Mr. Burgum. Well, absolutely, but I would say I would go a2150step further, which is we have got to commit to--and maybe it's2151going to take, you know, apparently the fire in Maui was not2152big enough in a sense--I mean, that was horrible--100-plus2153lives lost, the devastation that is there, but it did not2154create a response nationally or at the federal level or a2155collaboration of states, but with this incredible, you know,2156the largest ever. And when the dollars come up, this could be2157the most expensive wildfire--urban wildfire--in the history of2158the country, probably a time for all of us, together, to say2159what could we be doing differently. And I am excited that Tim2160Sheehy is a new Senator. He is the first that I know of who has2161actually worked as a professional firefighter on wildfire. I2162know that he and others are willing to work across the aisle to2163come up with solutions.2164    Senator Padilla. And Senator Sheehy and I are working on2165some proposals on a bipartisan basis to improve the Federal2166Government's ability to help in situations like these.2167    Mr. Burgum. And if I could, Senator, I would say we would2168also have to look at, it goes back to actually the grid because2169if you--a wildfire, whether it's in North Dakota or California,2170you need three things: you need oxygen, you need fuel load, and2171you need a spark. And in both cases, in North Dakota and in2172whatever, when you have high winds, those sparks can come from2173above-ground power lines coming in contact with vegetation. And2174so, we have to think about the grid----2175    Senator Padilla. I love that you have that appreciation and2176knowledge, and unfortunately, the experience, because red flag2177conditions is something new to people across the country, but2178nothing new for those of us in the very dry West.2179    My time is running quickly. I want to get at least one2180other issue in on the record. Last session, I began another2181bipartisan effort, with Senator Daines, to primarily protect2182the pay increases for federal firefighters that Congress had2183previously approved. Side note, there are currently about a2184thousand brave federal firefighters that are part of the2185tremendous response. It's not just locals. It's not just state2186firefighters, but through mutual aid, a number of jurisdictions2187there, including federal firefighters. If confirmed, are you2188committed to supporting wildland firefighters? Because2189recruitment and retention challenges exist for a number of2190reasons, but compensation has certainly been one of them.2191    Mr. Burgum. Well, it's a dangerous and very hard job. But2192it's an essential job. And I know, again, from my own recent2193experience, this was just October--the first week of October,2194we lost two lives in North Dakota as part of these raging2195wildfires that were tearing across the prairie. I had a chance2196immediately after that to meet with local volunteers and local2197firefighter units and our small state fire-front team. Our2198national guard was out, including a lot of citizens that jumped2199in as they did in California to try to save their own homes. I2200think we all have got a greater appreciation for that role. I2201think we need to have a better, more sophisticated response2202than we have right now because, again, this is a thing we need2203to recognize that there is rural firefighting and then there is2204urban. And I think the LA example shows us that there are2205things that we have to do differently going forward.2206    Senator Padilla. Thank you.2207    And just in closing, I will follow up on a number of issues2208with questions for the record, unless we do get a second round.2209But a note, not a question--and a nod to Senator Hickenlooper,2210who allowed me to jump the line here--we are working on2211engagement on the Colorado River, some important negotiations2212that need to stay consensus-driven in the years ahead, and a2213recognition, again, tapping your experience as Governor, that2214we need federal and state agencies working collaboratively to2215tackle resource issues, especially water. In California, we2216have both the Central Valley Project, which is a federal2217system, and the State Water Project, which is the state system,2218that are truly interconnected. And so, I introduce that to you2219and look forward to working with you on the water management2220challenges that we will have to address together going forward,2221particularly given the federal biological opinions that have2222been carefully crafted and need to be maintained.2223    Thank you for your time.2224    The Chairman. Senator Cassidy.2225    Senator Cassidy. Hey, Governor Burgum, thanks for doing the2226job, man, we appreciate it. We both come from oil and gas2227producing states. One of my top priorities has been to use2228federal/state revenue sharing on oil and gas lands to help2229rebuild Louisiana's coastline. During the time of this hearing,2230we will have lost several football fields worth of Louisiana2231coastline, which, of course, makes us more vulnerable to a2232hurricane hitting our coast. And last Congress, I am pleased to2233say, the RISEE Act, which did that, passed by voice vote out of2234this Committee. So I am hoping we do that again.2235    Can you briefly speak to the importance of revenue sharing2236to North Dakota, knowing that on federal lands in North Dakota,2237there is revenue that comes back to help mitigate whatever2238negative impact that drilling may have?2239    Mr. Burgum. Well, yes, absolutely. And the federal revenue2240goes two ways. I mean, at least we have got it coming back, a2241portion of it, back to the state. But then a portion of it goes2242back to the Federal Treasury, and the Federal Treasury, as we2243know, we have talked earlier about the debt that we have.2244Responsible, sustainable, smart development, whether it's2245onshore or offshore, is of great benefit to conservation--in2246your case, a coastline. But it also can help pay for other2247things. In our state, the revenues that are coming in are2248helping pay for education, healthcare, roads. It touches2249everything----2250    Senator Cassidy. If you will, it's kind of a middle class,2251if you will, and lower economic class benefit program because2252those things are touching services directly, aside from the2253jobs being created, directly impacting the quality of their2254life.2255    Mr. Burgum. Absolutely, and then when done effectively and2256appropriately, it also lowers the burden of sales tax and2257property tax and income tax on those same working individuals.2258    Senator Cassidy. It's music to my ears. I will say when I2259speak to the folks that actually do these big developments, one2260fellow said, you know, it used to be when they had a lease2261sale, I could plan a fishing trip with my son at the same time2262because it was so regular. It was going to be on this day, at2263this time, happened to be in New Orleans, so they had a great2264meal. So I wanted to say that now there have been dilatory2265practices that have been instituted, not for the sake of2266anything other than being dilatory and to increase the cost of2267development to hopefully thwart that development. Can I get a2268commitment from you, as much as you can possibly do it, that2269when we have lease sales now, they will be as they are2270scheduled to have lease sales and so that people making these2271decisions will have certainty as to them?2272    Mr. Burgum. As someone who is participating in a lawsuit2273suing the Federal Government to try to get them to hold the2274lease sales when they were supposed to be held by law, you can2275count that. As head of Interior, we will be following the law2276when it comes to lease sale time.2277    Senator Cassidy. I think the operative statement is you2278will be following the law, and that is a good thing.2279    Mr. Burgum. Yes.2280    Senator Cassidy. Now, on that, we know that on some federal2281lands from before modern environmental standards, there are2282abandoned oil and gas wells, and those tend to leak methane,2283for example. I am very interested in working on a bipartisan2284basis, bicameral basis, of how we can actually have a federal2285program which sustainably is paying to cap these abandoned oil2286and gas wells. And Louisiana has about 1,500 of them. Any2287thoughts about that, because I am sure in North Dakota that you2288had to address this issue too.2289    Mr. Burgum. Well, in North Dakota, we took part of the2290revenues that were coming into the state from the oil and gas2291tax revenues and we created an Abandoned Well Reclamation Fund.2292And that has been replenished, and then that goes back in to do2293that. But we have also made sure that the private sector is2294doing their share.2295    Senator Cassidy. Now, let me ask, because one thing I hear2296from the private sector is the issue of liability protection.2297Will they be sued the bejesus out of if something goes bad2298about this remediation of the abandoned oil and gas well? And I2299ask because I don't know the answer to it, we are trying to2300explore that. There are the abandoned mine provisions that we2301are looking at. How did you all manage that in North Dakota?2302    Mr. Burgum. Well, we always were looking for incentives to2303make sure that the private sector was willing to participate as2304opposed to being afraid to participate. And you are describing2305this thing where if you get unlimited liability, then they want2306to run the other way and lawyer up and do that as opposed to,2307hey, if you got the appropriate bond levels that are economic,2308they pay those upfront, we exhaust those. If they have got2309other payments that they need to do, we have just been able to2310work collaboratively in a way to make sure the private sector2311is doing their share when we are doing this. And part of their2312share is because we are taking--if they were not investing in2313creating the well, putting in the people, doing the2314development, taking the risk on the front end, we wouldn't have2315the revenue to split up on the back end.2316    Senator Cassidy. So we are going to look at what you all2317did in North Dakota as we draft our legislation.2318    One more thing, knowing that you will be in charge of this,2319as I gather, this kind of ``how do we do energy'' sort of2320thing. One thing that I have been concerned about is that2321countries like China do not enforce international standards on2322controlling pollution. That lowers their cost of manufacturing2323as much as 20 percent, incentivizing manufacturers to leave our2324country and move there. But then we get the loss of the jobs,2325but also all the air pollution that then blows over to our West2326Coast. I think I read 20 percent of the SOX in2327California is related to emissions from China.2328    Now, one thing I have been proposing--Senator Graham is my2329co-sponsor--is a foreign pollution fee that would put a fee on2330certain products from a country like China roughly equal to2331their avoided cost of not complying with environmental2332regulations. Now, as the President speaks about tariffs, this2333would be a tariff that would be thoroughly defensible as we2334address something the economists call externalities. I slept in2335a Holiday Inn last night, I know that word.2336    [Laughter.]2337    Senator Cassidy. So I go through that knowing that you, in2338your position, will be making sure that our industry is2339competitive in terms of controlling our emissions in accordance2340with the law, which then gives us that advantage relative to2341those competitors arbitraging those rules. Any quick comment on2342that, because the Chair is being generous in allowing me a2343little extra time?2344    Mr. Burgum. Well, I think you are spot-on to recognize2345President Trump, who has a willingness to use tariffs. His2346principle is reciprocity. If you have access to our markets,2347and we don't have access to yours, of if you are using unfair2348practices, if you are dumping in here, in this case, if they2349are not doing reclamation, they are using child labor, they are2350doing all the things that lower their cost, that is exactly the2351kind of place that he has publicly spoken about that he would2352want to have reciprocity with tariffs.2353    Senator Cassidy. Thank you very much.2354    The Chairman. Senator Hickenlooper.2355    Senator Hickenlooper. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you,2356Governor, for being here, I appreciate this. It's always good2357to have other governors in the room--or former governors, I2358guess.2359    At this point, I have got three questions, so I am going to2360be pretty quick in the questions, and I might--I try to be2361unfailingly polite, but if I override you, it's just because I2362want to get to all three questions.2363    Obviously, I worked on methane regulations back when I was2364Governor. We were the first state or province anywhere in the2365world to actually regulate methane, but we did it by working2366with the industry. They came and helped create the regulations2367that were going to guide them. Senator Cassidy was just talking2368about abandoned wells. It's all part of that same problem. As2369Secretary of the Interior, how do you think you can use your2370authority to advance rules that boost innovation in the energy2371sector to, you know--let's reduce methane is one thing, but I2372will broaden the question, say, and getting to better, cleaner2373energy that is at the same time reliable and low-cost?2374    Mr. Burgum. Well, I should say, Mayor/Governor/Senator, I2375love this question because of the focus on innovation. We have2376seen in North Dakota, again, the federal regulation comes in,2377it's proposed. It goes through the rule changing. It takes2378years to finally get it finalized, then it gets finalized, and2379then, all of a sudden, you got a federal employee in a white2380pickup with a clipboard, you know, driving around, that the2381taxpayers are paying for, trying to find out if we have got an2382emission here, emission there. Meanwhile, if that is six to2383eight years from the beginning of a problem to when the rule2384gets finalized and is actually enforced, we have gone through2385like four or five cycles of----2386    Senator Hickenlooper. Get to the innovation because----2387    Mr. Burgum. We have gone through four of five cycles of2388Moore's Law, and then someone's got a solution to say we can do2389methane capture at the well. We can do it cheaply. We can do2390this. They implement it. They can capture it. They can turn it2391into electricity. They can, you know, do power generation for a2392data center onsite, on a well site. I mean, the amount of2393innovation that is occurring right now in the energy industry2394is unbelievable. And so, it's as exciting as anything in tech2395that's going on.2396    And so, that's why I say, ``innovation over regulation.''2397We could solve these problems cheaper, faster, and quicker than2398we can through expensive and outdated regulations.2399    Senator Hickenlooper. Yeah, we have never needed more2400innovation in a short time then we need energy right now.2401    As the energies are, on the other side, there have been a2402lot of reports about tariffs on critical minerals and possibly2403on everything, from all different--I mean, a lot of people are2404saying a lot of different things. So in terms of imposing2405tariffs without having a clear strategy on how we are going to2406secure the supply chains for these critical minerals that are2407essential to our defense, to our aerospace industry--go down2408the list--what's your plan to collaborate with our allies to2409make sure that we can ensure a reliable supply chain on these2410critical minerals?2411    Mr. Burgum. Well, I think the key there is allies, because2412we have to have a security network of people that are truly our2413allies, and we have to be able to buy and sell from each other2414around these critical minerals, but right now, we have been,2415over the last 20 years, I mean, we were, as a nation, one of2416the great mining economies in the world 20 years ago. It has2417become a dirty word. You can hardly find a kid in college that2418wants to go into geology or geologic----2419    Senator Hickenlooper. You are hurting me.2420    Mr. Burgum. Well, you were there. You were----2421    Senator Hickenlooper. I am a geologist.2422    Mr. Burgum. Yes, you are.2423    Senator Hickenlooper. Well, I was.2424    Mr. Burgum. But you understand, in your profession, how2425that has shifted in your lifetime, and we have to bring it back2426because this is critical to our nation's future. And again,2427when we can do it here with innovation, better, cleaner, and2428safer than anywhere else the world, we are actually helping the2429world environment----2430    Senator Hickenlooper. Exactly.2431    Mr. Burgum [continuing]. When we do it in the United2432States.2433    Senator Hickenlooper. We can set those standards. And I2434agree completely that we are the ones who are going to create a2435better way to extract minerals with less pollution and less2436risk.2437    Last question: obviously, public lands are a key part of2438Colorado, just like they are of North Dakota. I commend you. I2439think what you did as Governor, you took a lot of what we did2440and did it better. It is very frustrating, but we governors2441like to give credit where credit is due. We have certain places2442in Colorado, and we discussed this when you were in my office2443last week, and I appreciate you taking the time with all that2444you have got going on to come and spend an hour with us. We2445have some places where local governments, the local community,2446the ranchers, have kind of joined arms side-by-side to protect2447lands. We have one piece of land there that is called the2448Thompson Divide. And it has been somewhat controversial. There2449is one mining or oil company that felt that there was potential2450there. I took a pretty deep look at the seismic, and couldn't2451see much source there, much potential, but it has been2452controversial.2453    I wanted to make sure to extend the invitation that you2454come to Colorado, which I am sure everyone up here, even if2455they haven't said it, they look forward to it, but to come walk2456that landscape with some of the local ranchers and farmers2457there so you can get a sense that this isn't a partisan issue,2458this is a piece of land that pretty much everyone in the2459community has a side that needs to be protected.2460    Mr. Burgum. Well, I appreciate the invitation. I would look2461forward to it, Senator.2462    Senator Hickenlooper. Great, thank you.2463    I yield the floor.2464    The Chairman. Senator Risch.2465    Senator Risch. Governor, welcome. I can't tell you how glad2466I am to see another governor for this position, and2467particularly coming from west of the Mississippi. You know, if2468you look at this Committee, it's kind of the former governor's2469club. There are a lot of us on here and we have meetings from2470time to time. Hoeven takes up most of the time trying to2471convince us there is a ``z'' in bison, and we can't find it,2472so.2473    [Laughter.]2474    Senator Risch. In any event, thank you for doing this, and2475because of the fact that most of our western states have so2476much federal land, it's really important we have somebody that2477understands those issues. So thank you for that and thank you2478for the job.2479    They have already had a discussion with you about grizzly2480bears. We don't want grizzly bears, they kill people. You know,2481the Federal Government already gave us wolves. We had them all2482killed off about 75 years ago and then some yahoo back here2483decided we needed them again and they brought them in and2484brought us 30 wolves and said when there were 203 breeding2485pairs, we could delist them. Well, by the time I became2486Governor, there were at least 1,500 wolves. Nobody knows how2487many breeding pairs, and we couldn't get them delisted until I2488got back here and we finally were able to put together a2489coalition and got them delisted. Grizzly bears are so far over2490the top because they kill people. They really do kill people.2491And they just don't mesh with society. So in any event, we will2492look forward to working with you on those issues.2493    Probably one of the most important decisions you are going2494to make here in the immediate future is--I know how the2495transition team is working, and you and the transition team are2496going to have to pick a BLM Director. And that is really2497important to us because all of us that are western states have2498a tremendous amount of BLM land. We had a real problem with2499this one. Fortunately, she has only got about 95 hours left.2500She was an eco-terrorist. She engaged in the work that was done2501in Idaho of spiking trees. You probably know about spiking2502trees. Since she has been BLM Director, we haven't seen her.2503She has been up here, I think, once in the four years. And it2504divided this Committee deeply. We had a huge fight over it. It2505was a straight party-line vote. She got confirmed. We don't2506want somebody like that running the BLM, particularly somebody2507we can't find. So I urge you to use your best decision-making2508ability when you choose that person.2509    On another important issue, the issue for us in Idaho right2510now is the Lava Ridge Wind Project. And my good friend Senator2511King and I have different views on windmills, and bless you for2512taking the windmills. You can have them all. We don't want them2513in Idaho. We hate windmills in Idaho. They are a tremendous2514blight on our viewscape. We really don't like them. And the2515Green New Deal that this Administration has put together is2516trying to saddle us with 100,000 acres--100,000 acres--with 2412517windmills on them that are a little higher than the Space2518Needle. I appreciate you meeting with me and listening to how2519wrong this project is on so many different levels. The good2520news is, and you don't know this yet, I don't think, but that2521project has only got about 95 hours left to be on the table.2522That's going to go by the by, and believe me, in Idaho, this is2523a 99 to 1 percent issue. And we are going to be so glad to see2524it gone. And it will be gone and you are not going to have to2525worry about it anymore after that.2526    Let me just close with this. I am so glad to hear that the2527President is going to put you in the position he is on energy.2528That's incredible. We need it. We all know his vision for2529making America independent and actually being an exporter and2530tapping our wealth. One word we haven't used here in that2531regard is nuclear. Idaho is the birthplace of nuclear energy in2532the universe. We have still got the first lightbulbs we lit in25331951 by generating nuclear energy. We built about 52 reactors2534out there at the site. I don't know if you have been to the2535Idaho National Lab or not, but if you are going to be in the2536energy business, you really need to. There's a tremendous,2537tremendous resurgence of interest in nuclear. You know, the2538thing kind of went by the way after we had the unfortunate2539Three Mile Island incident, but the renaissance in nuclear, not2540just in America, but around the world, is staggering.2541    Coming off the drawing boards at INL and in the very near2542future are SMRs--small modular-reactors. It is going to be2543followed by the micro-reactors. That is going to change the2544world as far as energy is concerned. And I am glad to hear you2545talk about baseload because when you are talking about nuclear,2546you are talking about baseload. And I suspect the world, as we2547go through this century, is going to rely heavily on nuclear.2548There is tremendous--and the other hat I wear is Chairman of2549the Foreign Relations Committee. I deal with countries,2550particularly the Eastern European countries--they are entering2551contracts and it is a national security issue because we2552compete with China, with Russia, and to a degree, France, when2553these new projects are coming on board.2554    So thank you for what you are doing. God bless you. We2555welcome you.2556    The Chairman. Senator Gallego.2557    Senator Gallego. Thank you. And Governor, thanks again for2558joining me, and thank you for sitting down in my office, and I2559appreciate our time together. We kind of hit upon this, but one2560of the biggest Interior-related issues is going to be the2561Colorado River. Arizona is at the heart of our national defense2562when it comes to chip making, agriculture, and food security,2563and of course, home to the fifth largest and best city in the2564country. In addition, 22 of the 30 Colorado River Basin tribes2565are in Arizona. So rules governing the reductions of Colorado2566River water expire at the end of 2026. And post-2026 operation2567conversations are still ongoing. The Lower Basin states have2568put forward a proposal for management of the Colorado River2569that shares the risk among all states. However, no agreement2570has been reached, leading to potential conflicts within the2571Basin, which, of course, we would all like to avoid.2572    Would you work with Arizona parties and my office so that2573any determination post-2026 isn't overly burdensome to any one2574state and is consistent with the Colorado River Compact?2575    Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator, you bring up a really important2576issue, and this is with the 2026 date looming, coming forward,2577and of course, as you know, Interior does have some specific2578authorities relative to helping with the Lower and Upper2579Basins. I would say, as a former Chair of the Western2580Governors' Association, I know that this has been a battle that2581has gone on as long as there have been people in the West,2582people fighting over water in the West. My experience in North2583Dakota has been more on the Missouri River Basin, but also, we2584have been in some deep battles with Canada because we have two2585rivers that are in North Dakota that actually flow north into2586Canada--the Souris River and the Red River in the North.2587    So whether it's international or the complexities of the2588Missouri, I have some good understanding and good exposure to2589this. But I think you can count on it that we are going to look2590for a collaborative solution that serves everyone. Also, we2591have to look for innovation on ways on the conservation side,2592because we can't make more water, but if we could use what we2593have wisely, that is going to look for the best solutions for2594all. But I appreciate that you are engaged in this. I know how2595important it is to Arizona and its economy.2596    Senator Gallego. Thanks, Governor.2597    In our meeting we also discussed a lot about our tribal2598communities and tribal nations. I am very glad that you have a2599good background and understanding and relationships with them.2600And we talked a lot about tribal law enforcement, including2601some of the bills that I have put forward to increase tribal2602law enforcement. But unfortunately, we see just high rates of2603missing and murdered women, as well as other violent crimes, a2604lot of this really due to lack of tribal law enforcement and2605communications with our agencies that are supposed to have2606oversight and collaboration. So, you know, I have worked2607through my time in Congress to try to increase the funding for2608tribal law enforcement, but our federal budget cuts really put2609all of that work at risk. So can you tell me, what is your plan2610to work collaboratively with Congress and tribes across the2611country on tribal law enforcement and proven efforts, and how2612do you plan to ensure that we can do this in a bipartisan2613manner?2614    Mr. Burgum. Well, I think there is nothing partisan about2615enforcing the law and protecting the citizens of the United2616States. And one of the great tragedies in our country is the2617lack of law enforcement on tribal lands and the fact that we2618have organized crime that is, you know, preying on those gaps.2619They are aware that the gaps are there, and whether it's2620training centers--Senator Hoeven has been particularly2621supportive, along with Senator Cramer--we don't have enough2622training centers across the nation for the northern tribes or2623the southern tribes. So we need more recruiting. We need more2624staffing. We need lots of other things that are going on.2625    But you mentioned, the first time it has come up, but the2626missing and murdered indigenous women. I mean, this is, again,2627an unseen tragedy in America. I think the FBI list is now at2628over 6,000 unsolved cases. And I, you know, believe, again,2629that we just--it is a complete tragedy. It seems if we, you2630know, we lose a college student at spring break, it's a Netflix2631series and the whole nation knows her name personally. And then2632we have these same individual tragedies that happen over and2633over again in Indian Country, and people aren't even aware that2634is it's going on. So we have got to change our entire approach2635to this.2636    Senator Gallego. Thank you again for that, and I look2637forward to working with you on that, and I had a lot of sense2638of history on the House side on this.2639    In the last four years, we have learned from Reclamation2640that Glen Canyon Dam has some design flaws that limit its2641ability to pass water at lower elevations, which means we have2642to fix that dam, and pretty soon. We need the ability to2643essentially pass water around the dam if we actually obviously2644cannot go through it, especially if the hydrology in the region2645gets worse. How would you make fixing the dam that delivers2646water to the Grand Canyon and the three million people2647downstream from that in the Lower Basin, and of course Mexico2648as part of our treaty obligations, a priority?2649    Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator, I appreciate your bringing that2650to my attention. This is one issue I was not aware of about--2651the Glen Canyon Dam deficiencies, but obviously, with the2652Bureau of Reclamation being the second largest operator of2653hydroelectric dams in the country behind the Army Corps of2654Engineers, I will quickly be meeting with the team, if I have2655the privilege of being confirmed for this position, about this2656issue because we have to have working facilities on these2657critical rivers.2658    And as we know, we have to have more reservoir capability2659because part of the issue we are facing is that perhaps we not2660only need to fix--we have to upgrade some of these so that we2661can have more storage.2662    Senator Gallego. Yeah, I would love to work on that,2663personally. Thank you. Thank you, Governor. I yield back.2664    The Chairman. Senator Hyde-Smith.2665    Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I think2666you guys will be very happy that I am probably the last one.2667This will soon be over. But I just certainly appreciate your2668willingness and your eagerness. I enjoyed the visit we had in2669my office and the sincerity that you have, but most of all,2670your capabilities. You are so capable for this position. And I2671am very thankful to you and your family that you are willing to2672do this.2673    I am going to be brief, but one of the things we talked2674about in my office was a local Mississippi thing. William2675Faulker once said, ``To understand the rest of the world, you2676first must understand a place like Mississippi.'' But we are2677very blessed with the National Park Service, that we have2678several sites in Mississippi that certainly contribute to our2679tourism, the economy of our state, and we work with them very2680closely with public-private partnerships. And in Vicksburg,2681now, we are working on a visitor center with the State of2682Mississippi, public-private partnerships, and Friends of2683Vicksburg National Military Park. So we certainly want to make2684sure that continues. In Natchez, the state is enhancing two2685state historical sites to better complement the Natchez2686National Historic Park sites.2687    So, of course, I would want to invite you to visit those2688and am asking for your willingness to commit to me on working2689on these two particular projects in Vicksburg and Natchez.2690    Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator, thank you, and first of all, I2691just want to thank you too for your capabilities. It's great to2692have a Senator who grew up in agriculture and also was Ag2693Commissioner. That is fantastic. I spent most of my life--my2694family was always involved in agriculture my entire life, and2695many of my cousins still are. So it's such an important part of2696our national security as well.2697    But in terms of the national park thing, as we said2698earlier, we have a big deferred maintenance issue and we have a2699big opportunity. These are the precious spots out of the2700billions of acres of surface, subsurface, and offshore that we2701own. The national parks, for Americans, are a priority, and we2702need to take care of these sites, whether historic or others.2703And again, we have to make sure that they are capable of2704handling and supporting the visitors that want to see them. We2705know they are great for the local economy. So I appreciate the2706invitation and look forward to working with you.2707    Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you on that.2708    Now, I am going to go to South Mississippi--our offshore2709oil and gas production in the Gulf of Mexico. Of course, it2710plays a vital role in the Gulf States' economies as well. We2711call it our blue economy down there. The anchor platform has2712recently come online with the Gulf of Mexico, but it will2713produce 75,000 barrels of oil per day, and this oil is refined2714in Pascagoula, Mississippi, and obviously, the jobs that it2715provides there and the benefits that we have. But it is2716important that the Department maintain a steady leasing2717schedule to ensure companies can continue the opportunities2718there for exploration for new production to support the2719affordable, reliable energy. So the current National Outer2720Continental Shelf Oil and Gas Leasing Plan for the five-year2721plan includes only three possible lease sales, a historic low.2722Do you believe the current five-year plan is adequate to2723continue to meet the energy needs of the nation? And if not,2724will it be a priority for Interior to develop or finalize a new2725five-year plan?2726    Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator, I think that you know the long2727lead times it takes for the private sector to make the2728significant investments to do safe, secure, and smart,2729sophisticated offshore development. It is a really important2730part of our nation's economy and our national security. The2731fact that during the current Administration, the lease sales2732have been so unpredictable and disruptive, and the fact that2733they are projecting forward to have among the fewest we have2734ever had, almost would guarantee that we would see a decline in2735energy production in offshore in the years ahead because of the2736lead times. And knowing that we are in a national security2737battle, and the way that we win, the way that we ensure2738America's future is that we have energy dominance. This isn't2739opposed to the President's direction, I mean, to have, I mean,2740the President would be saying we have to be doing more smart2741development, not less. And as I stated earlier with one of the2742questions, in North Dakota we literally were suing the Federal2743Government because they were not holding the lawfully required2744lease sales. So getting lease sales to be regular, predictable,2745and at a level that allows us to maintain energy production in2746our country is a minimum standard for us.2747    Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you for those answers, and I2748cannot tell you how glad we are to have you. Thank you.2749    Mr. Burgum. Thank you, Senator.2750    The Chairman. Senator Wyden.2751    Senator Wyden. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and let2752me say, I very much look forward to working with you and2753Senator Heinrich. We have always worked on these issues in a2754bipartisan way, and I look forward to doing it again.2755    Mr. Burgum, I think you know from our visit in the office2756how strongly I feel about these clean energy tax credits. I2757wrote this package, $400 billion or so, the biggest investment2758in fighting climate change in American history. It uses2759carrots, not sticks. The more you reduce carbon, the bigger2760your tax savings. It's private-sector driven, and in what I2761consider to be a huge breakthrough, we reward technological2762neutrality. The reason that is so important, as you and I2763talked about, is nobody knows what the big carbon reducers are2764going to be 30 years from now. And so, the reason I insisted on2765that provision is, it creates what I call an innovation lane.2766It's an opportunity to send a message to people about every2767possible type of energy use, that you are going to have a2768chance, if you innovate, to be part of a very bright future.2769    Now, I heard something, and I am just counting on you to2770deny it, that maybe you were not as interested in this as I2771thought you were in the office. So, you seemed kind of2772skeptical on some of the earlier discussion, and I just hope,2773because you are going to be very influential in the whole2774Administration on energy, that we can work together on this. I2775believe we will work together on a variety of other issues as2776well. Your thoughts?2777    Mr. Burgum. Well, Senator, I really enjoyed our discussion2778and the extra time we spent together, and as I said then, and2779restate now, that I think your principles are really sound2780about being, you know, technology neutral, about having carrots2781versus sticks, and also about having, you know, private sector2782versus just all government----2783    Senator Wyden. I ought to quit while I am ahead.2784    Mr. Burgum. Yeah, well, that was all good, I mean, it's all2785good stuff. I think if--I don't know specifically other2786comments you may have heard--but I believe that these things2787may have been so successful as it relates to the electrical2788grid, that there is now a significant imbalance in the amount2789of projects that are intermittent and not persistent, and we2790need to make sure for our country to be successful in the near2791term that we get back to making sure that we have the2792appropriate amount of baseload to manage both of those things,2793because if the sun is not shining, the wind is not blowing, and2794we don't have baseload, then we have brownouts and blackouts2795and we have higher electric prices for every American. So it's2796the balance of trying to achieve that.2797    And then, the other point that I may have said today, which2798I would stand by, is that it's great that people thought hey,2799let's put massive incentives around EVs, around electric2800vehicles against fueled cars that have liquid fuels, but in2801America, if there is innovation neutrality, in North Dakota we2802are producing a carbon-negative barrel of oil. We are producing2803carbon-neutral biofuels. I mean, America built 200,000 gas2804stations without a dime of public money or taxpayer incentives2805because the market created that, and we have an opportunity to2806have innovation and an innovation lane around decarbonizing2807liquid fuels. So, we just have to make sure we have the2808balance, because we need it all. We need it all to win the2809competition we are going to win.2810    Senator Wyden. Well, first of all, on the electric front, I2811am very much of your view there. I mean, we have had big2812challenges in our part of the world. There's a transmission2813issue. The two pieces that are really left out are how to deal2814with electric and how to promote transmission. I am very2815interested in working with you. I am going to take--as I run2816back to the Finance Committee, where we are talking about these2817issues--the view that you are open to continue working in this2818space rather than coming on in and just saying we are going to2819chuck it in the trash can, because I am always interested in2820improving on something. I mean, the founding fathers said that2821a new Congress is never bound by absolutely everything from a2822past Congress.2823    So I am interested in improving it, but I am going to take2824out of our discussion that you are open to working with me and2825others in a bipartisan way. At one point, this was a purely2826bipartisan kind of effort. We can talk about what happened,2827because I thought it was a question of who was going to get the2828credit, but I am going to take out of here that you will work2829with me.2830    Mr. Burgum. Yes, you can count on it that I will, and you2831can also count on it that I am going to be anchored in two2832things--one is national security, so we shouldn't have2833incentives that enslave us to getting all of our critical2834minerals from a major power competitor, like China. And then2835the other thing you can count on is that I am going to be2836focused on the economy and affordability because if we can do2837something for $60 a ton versus $900 a ton, I am going to choose2838the $60 a ton of avoided CO2.2839    Senator Wyden. My time is out, but I am going to say the2840idea of linking a lower carbon future with lower prices and to2841focus on national security is a kind of triangle with three2842sides that I can support, and I would like to work with you on2843it.2844    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.2845    Mr. Burgum. Thank you, Senator.2846    The Chairman. Senator Barrasso.2847    Senator Barrasso. Thanks so much, Mr. Chairman. Governor,2848congratulations, great to be with you again. Thanks for our2849time together.2850    As you know, the Federal Government controls hundreds of2851millions of acres of land in the West. I mean, I can look at2852this Committee, in our home states, and the well-being,2853certainly in my home State of Wyoming, depends on strong2854leadership at the Department of the Interior. The Department2855must work with states and local communities to manage our2856resources in a way that works for the people that actually live2857on the land. And over the last four years, that has been a big2858problem, as we have seen an Administration that seems to just2859be punishing the West. The will of the people who depend on the2860land, live on the land, take care of the land, was ignored the2861last four years. So Governor, there is a long list of things2862that I believe must be fixed, and I am going to ask for your2863help.2864    Number one, in Rock Springs, Wyoming, the RMP--that stands2865for the Resource Management Plan. As you and I know, and those2866who are watching will know about now, the Bureau of Land2867Management finalized that just last month--December 2024. They2868did it not even a week after the Governor of Wyoming submitted2869his appeal to the proposed plan, but they rushed out the door2870with this. This final plan is going to devastate the people of2871Southwest Wyoming. It's going to lock up millions of acres of2872land that local communities and the entire state rely upon. The2873Governor, our state legislature, the county commissioners, and2874the local communities all strongly oppose what the Federal2875Government is slamming down our throat. So will you commit to2876work with my office and the state to undo this disastrous plan?2877    Mr. Burgum. Senator, I am familiar, having been Governor2878until December 15th, because we had a similar experience in2879North Dakota of having plans like this pushed on the State of2880North Dakota. So yes, absolutely, you can count on me working2881with you.2882    Senator Barrasso. Great.2883    In Wyoming, about two-thirds of our minerals under the land2884are owned by the Federal Government--about half the surface2885land and two-thirds of the minerals under the land. That means2886that energy development in my state depends on cooperation from2887the Department of the Interior. Wyoming's legislative leaders2888would benefit from meeting with you directly as they plan the2889state's energy future, and they ask you to commit to joining2890our Wyoming delegation, as well as the Wyoming stakeholders to2891talk about the future.2892    Mr. Burgum. I would enjoy that very much, and I have2893enjoyed the relationship I had with Governor Matt Mead and now2894Governor Mark Gordon, and we have been on regular communication2895because there have been a lot of shared challenges between2896Wyoming and North Dakota.2897    Senator Barrasso. And both the current Governor and former2898Governor speak of you with great appreciation, great2899admiration, and great respect. So I look forward to that.2900    Buffalo, Wyoming--last year, the outgoing Administration2901finalized a resource management plan for Buffalo--the Buffalo,2902Wyoming field office. This plan would ban new coal leasing in2903the Powder River Basin, which is the most energy-rich area in2904the country. We are America's energy breadbasket in Wyoming.2905This short-sighted decision is an insult to our communities and2906harmful for American energy security. If confirmed, would you2907work with me to reverse this plan?2908    Mr. Burgum. Absolutely, and I also know that when you talk2909about critical minerals, that Powder River coal includes many2910of the critical minerals that we need for defense, for2911technology, and for the future of this country. And so, rather2912than, you know, this blanket approach of trying to block that2913type of energy development, we need to be thinking about how2914innovation can help us solve multiple problems at once.2915    Senator Barrasso. I am going to move now to oil and gas2916leases. The outgoing Administration has a disgraceful record on2917oil and gas management. It blocked and locked our production at2918just about every turn. It hasn't issued leases for a lease sale2919held over four years ago. They still haven't issued the leases,2920and it deferred over 600,000 acres from leasing in Wyoming that2921were previously cleared for oil and gas production. If2922confirmed, will you work to quickly issue those leases and2923offer additional acres for leasing?2924    Mr. Burgum. Absolutely, and Senator, as I have stated2925before, North Dakota has faced the same--what I view as2926absolutely that there is a case in federal court which I am2927positive the ruling is going to be that the current2928Administration--the Biden Administration--did not follow the2929law relative to holding required lease sales.2930    Senator Barrasso. The next area is sage grouse. Wyoming is2931the home to a large population of greater sage grouse and its2932habitat. For over 15 years, Wyoming has been at the forefront2933of adopting new management approaches to protect the species.2934Our state has led successful efforts to balance conservation2935with economic development. Again, the Biden Administration2936proposed to designate over 600,000 acres in Wyoming as ``Areas2937of Critical Environmental Concern.'' That is going to lock up2938thousands of acres in Wyoming, halting production and2939development across the state. Would you be willing to reopen2940the Department's greater sage grouse management?2941    Mr. Burgum. I have been advised that the rule of decision2942came out this morning. I don't want to put myself into making a2943forward statement that I would have to recuse, but I would just2944say, for my time as Chairman of Western Governors, I am2945familiar with the use of designations to try to restrict energy2946development, even when you might have a species like the sage2947grouse that is neither on the Endangered or the Threatened2948list.2949    Senator Barrasso. I will ask one final question, and you2950have done quite a bit on the grizzly bear already, so let me2951talk about federal grazing. The Department of the Interior is2952critical in its role for management of federal lands across the2953West. Almost half of the land in Wyoming is owned by the2954Federal Government. Land managed under multiple use is required2955by law to be managed without impairment of the productivity of2956the land. These are public places that people from Wyoming2957depend on accessing for their livelihoods, agriculture, all the2958ranching activities, recreation, mineral development. Congress2959directed grazing, timber harvesting, recreation, and energy and2960mineral production to take place on federal lands. Will you2961support the multiple-use mandate the law mandates for federal2962land?2963    Mr. Burgum. Absolutely, I do, Senator. And since we talked2964about wildfires today, grazing reduces fuel load. Timber2965management appropriately reduces fuel load. Surface development2966can create roads paid for by the private sector that support2967our firefighters. All of the multiple use is a component of a2968comprehensive re-thinking of how we think about fire management2969on federal lands.2970    Senator Barrasso. Yes, thank you, Governor.2971    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.2972    The Chairman. Senator Cotton.2973    Senator Cotton. Governor, welcome and congratulations. We2974reached the regrettable point that we often do in the Senate2975where almost everything has been said, but not everyone has2976said it. I will refrain from saying a lot of what has gone2977before me, but I will say, for the record, that I want to2978associate myself with the comments of my Republican colleagues2979about the need for significantly increasing energy production2980while also being responsible stewards of our public lands and2981waters.2982    There is, however, one issue I don't think has been2983discussed yet under the Endangered Species Act. And I think2984it's a scandal of the first order. I am surprised it has not2985gotten more attention as of late. On January 3, the New York2986Times published a story about the so-called snail darter. It2987was a species that was designated as endangered by Fish and2988Wildlife back in the 1970s. The entire thrust of the story is2989that a zoologist basically made up this species of snail darter2990all for the point of halting construction of the Tellico Dam on2991the Little Tennessee River. After many years of delay, it2992finally took an act of Congress to build that dam. An academic2993cited in that article said this is a not uncommon practice,2994creating new species, when there is really no difference2995between other extant, non-endangered species for what he called2996the ``downstream conservation implications,'' which is to say,2997activists creating species and calling them endangered to stop2998the construction of a dam or a power generation plant or a2999housing development.3000    And again, this is something that was admitted publicly in3001the New York Times by some of these activists. That is why I3002say I think this is a scandal of the first order. Can I get3003your commitment, in light of these admissions, to go back and3004reexamine Endangered Species Act listings and identify any3005other potential false designations?3006    Mr. Burgum. Senator Cotton, you raise a very important3007issue, which is the weaponization of federal rules, you know,3008meant to actually protect wildlife, but to do it in a way where3009it's being used, not to protect wildlife, but it's being used3010to stop legal activities, like the multiple-use scenario we3011were just talking about with Senator Barrasso. Again, it's just3012a legal weapon, and it's used for fundraising. It is used for3013groups that are just trying to block our nation's progress. And3014so, I agree with you completely. And you mentioned the New York3015Times. If that article was someplace else, you know, but the3016fact that the New York Times wrote that article, I found also3017to be a remarkable admission of at least one case where there3018was abuse of the Endangered Species Act relative to its3019intended use. So yes, you can count, absolutely----3020    Senator Cotton. Thank you. I appreciate that because also I3021think, not in light just of this public admission, but also the3022West Virginia case and the Loper Bright case, there can be3023legal infirmity in a lot of our federal bureaucracy's past3024decisions. So I appreciate your willingness to take a look at3025that once you are on the job.3026    Thank you very much.3027    The Chairman. That concludes round one. We are going to do3028a quick round two with some follow-ups that a few members have3029asked.3030    I want to talk to you briefly about the fact that public3031lands represent a massive public asset, and yet an accurate3032valuation is something that we don't have, and that undermines3033informed decision-making about their use and their management.3034What steps would you take, if confirmed as Secretary, to3035improve the transparency in this area and ensure federal land3036valuations reflect their value to the American people?3037    Mr. Burgum. Well, I would just say, this idea that I will3038call America's balance sheet is something that the Trump3039Administration has quite a bit of enthusiasm for in discussions3040with the Treasury nominee, Scott Bessent, Commerce nominee,3041Howard Lutnick, and even Speaker Mike Johnson called me a few3042weeks ago and said hey, what's this American balance sheet3043idea? I mean, I think for our standing in the world for us to,3044you know, talk non-stop about what our liabilities are, we3045should also be fluent, just as any business would be, to be3046able to talk about what our assets are, and the assets of this3047country, I think, outpace anyplace in the world because of the3048care that we have given, in particular, to the public lands--3049the surface, the subsurface, and the offshore. And we have3050proven time and time again that we can do it better, cleaner,3051and safer than anyone else here.3052    If I am a timber company, and I own timber land, and it has3053not been harvested, I put that on my balance sheet. If I have3054timber land and I have planted young trees, I put it on my3055balance sheet at a different valuation. When we protect U.S.3056lands and then don't cut a tree and then they burn down, we not3057only produce enormous amounts of emissions and enormous amounts3058of carbon, but we also effectively wasted the public's asset.3059And I think it's part of our duty in the role, if I have the3060privilege of being nominated here, but all of us as elected3061officials, to make sure that we are getting a return on the3062nation's balance sheet for the benefit and the use of the3063American people.3064    The Chairman. Great.3065    Mr. Burgum. So understanding that number, I think, is key.3066I would just say one last thing--people say, oh, it's going to3067be really hard. It's really hard to develop it. We did this in3068North Dakota. When I took office, they said well, we have no3069way of knowing what our undeveloped minerals are, and we found3070a young software company that was able to figure out precisely3071what the future value of every one of the wells in North Dakota3072on public land would be worth. It has been used for estate3073planning. If grandma dies and she has only got 10 percent of3074one well, they can figure out the value for that. If we can do3075that there, we can figure it out for the whole country.3076    And just as I said to Speaker Johnson, we are required, as3077a nation, to conduct a census within every ten years--not every3078ten years, but within ten years, do a census. That is hard work3079but we figure out a way to do it. I would think if Congress3080stood up and said, hey, every agency, every bureau, every3081department of the U.S. Government needs to figure out what3082their asset value is, then we get after it and we come up with3083a number and then we can make these trade-offs. And when you3084take--when you do by executive order and take hundreds of3085millions of offshore subsurface out of leasing, and that is3086viewed as a costless event, at least we could have the trade-3087off and say yes, some people thought it was important to take3088that off of the table, but what did it mean for the American3089people? Did we just take trillions of dollars of future revenue3090out of the pockets of our future generations?3091    And so, I think again, creating a financial understanding3092where we could have an honest discussion about some of these3093executive actions that are happening at the end of this term,3094for example, would be useful for all Americans to understand.3095    The Chairman. Thank you. I appreciate that.3096    I have got another question that I was going to ask3097regarding PILT. In the interest of time, I am going to forgo3098that. I will just give a very brief statement.3099    PILT, Payment in Lieu of Taxes, the Federal Government came3100up with it. Congress came up with it about 50 years ago to help3101offset the burden states carry, states with a lot of public3102land because they do not receive any property tax revenue from3103it, so it's supposed to offset that. In some parts of the3104country where there is a lot of public land, this works out3105okay. In other parts, it's pennies on the dollar compared to3106what they would get if they could tax the land even at its3107lowest valuation, its lowest rate. So I would love to talk to3108you about PILT reforms and making PILT, generally, a priority3109because a lot of these communities rely on it for fire, search3110and rescue, schools, safety, and so forth.3111    Senator Heinrich.3112    Senator Heinrich. Governor, Senator Daines mentioned a very3113specific challenge with the Endangered Species Act, but as a3114governor, you know that one of the best ways to head off those3115conflicts is to prevent species from ever being listed by3116recovering them through proactive, voluntary conservation at3117the state level. Senator Tillis and nine of his Republican3118colleagues and I have a highly bipartisan bill called the3119Recovering America's Wildlife Act that helps states do exactly3120that. And in fact, North Dakota's former game and fish3121director, Terry Steinwand, was one of the architects of that3122legislation. It has strong support from the Association of Fish3123and Wildlife Agencies, from many of the conservation groups3124that you mentioned in your exchange with Senator Justice.3125    Does that sound like the kind of approach that you could3126work with Senator Tillis and I on?3127    Mr. Burgum. Absolutely, Senator Heinrich. I think, again, a3128super-sound principle there, which is to do the work to keep it3129off of any kind of federal designation, working collaboratively3130with the states. I had the pleasure of working with our game3131and fish commissioner, Terry Steinwand, for six of my eight3132years as Governor.3133    Senator Heinrich. Right.3134    Mr. Burgum. He had almost a 40-year career in wildlife3135management. It's people like that that I know and respect3136across all the states. I know you have got them in New Mexico.3137I know we have them in Utah. I mean, the people that work in3138game and fish at the state level that are working on these3139things, I just, I haven't met somebody from the federal level3140that flies into North Dakota that cares more about the soil,3141the air, the water, the fish, the wildlife, than the people3142that we have at the state level. And we should just--this3143sounds like you are entrusting this back to the states, and3144that is where it belongs.3145    Senator Heinrich. And it was really an idea that grew out3146of asking all of those agencies, like, what's the right way to3147approach this? And they said, well instead of, you know, just3148having an emergency room, which is what the Endangered Species3149Act effectively is, let's try to give wildlife primary care.3150Let's intervene when it's much cheaper and much more effective3151and you can really move the needle.3152    You and I talked a little bit about tribal water3153settlements. Those are incredibly important for water certainty3154in the West, especially with all the, you know, all the3155conflicts we have, not just in the Colorado Basin, but also in3156the Rio Grande Basin and other western basins. If you are3157confirmed, will you commit to continuing the Department's work3158to both resolve legal claims around tribal water settlements,3159but also just implement the existing water settlements that3160have already been made?3161    Mr. Burgum. Well, you have my commitment to work on those3162important issues.3163    Senator Heinrich. Great.3164    I am going make one other quick statement. I know you heard3165from my friend and colleague from Idaho, and we have done some3166great work together on cleaning up abandoned mines. We don't3167necessarily agree on wind generation, but I would simply remind3168you that onshore wind is in that basket of multiple use. And3169so, you can always hold it to the same standard as oil and gas,3170but you can't legally, at least, unilaterally deny legally3171permitted wind generation. So with that, thank you for all of3172your answers today.3173    The Chairman. Senator King.3174    Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.3175    First, I want to associate myself with your comments, Mr.3176Chairman, on determining the asset value of what we own. It's3177astounding that that doesn't exist. And one of the things that3178would contribute to, as we discussed previously, is adequate3179maintenance budgets. If you know the asset value, there are,3180sort of, standard industry percentages that should be applied3181in order to determine a maintenance budget. So I believe that's3182an important step.3183    I presume you believe climate change is a problem, is that3184correct?3185    Mr. Burgum. Yes, I believe that climate change is a global3186phenomenon, for sure.3187    Senator King. And I noted the biographical material that in31882021, as Governor, you set a goal for North Dakota of carbon3189neutrality by 2030, to be achieved in a variety of ways. And as3190you mentioned, you have really worked hard on the carbon3191neutrality of fossil fuel extraction and fossil fuel use. I am3192a little worried today, though. You keep distinguishing between3193intermittent and baseload. Would you agree that renewable3194resources, solar and wind, for example, can be developed if3195they are adequately--if they can be integrated into the grid in3196a safe and reliable way?3197    Mr. Burgum. Yes, they can, and it's not for me, personally,3198for any political reasons that I distinguish, it's just because3199of physics--the physics of the grid. If we don't have enough3200baseload, and it's the baseload that we have that has allowed3201our nation to make the investments into the intermittent----3202    Senator King. I just, I don't want the word--in a former3203life I developed both baseload and intermittent resources--I3204don't want the word baseload to be code for no renewables.3205That's not what you are saying, is it?3206    Mr. Burgum. No. We need a balance, but they cannot--the3207intermittent, if you want to call them renewables, is used as a3208positive word, but this is a fact of life, is that they are3209intermittent. And when they are intermittent, until we have3210storage solutions, and we are years away from having3211significant enough cost-effective storage to support that, we3212need to have the baseload or the intermittent doesn't even have3213a life.3214    Senator King. But it can be integrated. In your case, in3215North Dakota, 35 percent of your electricity comes from wind3216power. I presume your grid works?3217    Mr. Burgum. Well, it's super-stressed, as it is around the3218country. We are in parts of two grids. We are part of MISO3219going east and we are part of SPP going west. And you can have3220days when the rated capacity is 30, but you got a day when the3221wind is blowing, the wind is blowing so hard, it drives all the3222baseload off of production. And then the next day, it's 203223below and there is no wind blowing and we have got no wind and3224then you got to, like, crank up the baseload again. And so,3225there is----3226    Senator King. That's one of the most important reasons3227that--we have talked about innovation--we need to work on3228storage. You would agree, I think, that renewables or3229intermittents, whatever you want to call them, plus storage,3230equals baseload?3231    Mr. Burgum. Yes, but right now, at a much higher cost. And3232so, then, of course, we want it to not only be reliable, we3233also want to have it be affordable. And so, that is part of3234what we have to look at as a nation is, what cost are we3235willing to take on to try to achieve those goals. And I believe3236if it's all-of-the-above, if we can decarbonize traditional3237fuels cheaper than we can subsidize some of the renewables,3238then that should be looked at fairly and equitably and3239economically, because that is a better path forward for every3240citizen, if we can do it more affordably.3241    Senator King. I wouldn't disagree with that, but we have3242talked a lot about innovation, and I am a great believer in3243American innovation, and the cost, for example, of solar panels3244has gone from, I don't know, $70 a kilowatt, down to 70 cents.3245I mean, battery storage--for example, in Maine there is a3246project underway for an 85-megawatt, 100-hour grid-scale3247storage at a reasonable cost because it's not based on lithium3248ion--it's based on iron. And so, we are moving into a period3249where innovation, I believe, will bring storage down. And of3250course, as you know, wind and solar are the cheapest forms of3251energy today on a levelized basis, understanding that storage3252and backup is part of that calculation. But I hope that you3253will work with the Department of Energy. Mr. Wright was here3254yesterday, and one of his business interests was in geothermal3255and batteries. So I just, when I hear baseload used sometimes3256in these contexts, it sounds like no more renewables. I don't3257think that's a sustainable path for this country, and it's3258certainly not a way of meeting the challenge of climate change,3259which you have acknowledged is a serious one.3260    Mr. Burgum. No, it's--we need all forms of electricity and3261we need more of it in the very near term. And so, this is not3262about one versus the other, this is about how do we drive3263forward and increase the amount of electricity we have in the3264country. So I am a both--all of the above--in terms of our3265approach of how we do it, but we have got to do it in a way3266that we have affordability and reliability.3267    On the storage side, there is a future, but having been in3268tech for 30 years, batteries get better at about two percent a3269year, and that is what it has been for 30 or 40 years, and3270there is no breakthrough coming. Yes, it's improving, but it is3271not like the microchip, you know, which doubles the power----3272    Senator King. It may not be Moore's Law, but I think the3273amount of resources that are going into this research at the3274Department of Energy and in other places, and the development3275of this iron-based, grid-scale storage, there are opportunities3276for significant baseloads. I like your answer where you said we3277need it all, and I appreciate having that on the record.3278    Mr. Burgum. Yes.3279    Senator King. Thank you very much, Governor, I appreciate3280your being with us.3281    Mr. Burgum. Thank you. Thank you, Senator.3282    The Chairman. Senator Hickenlooper.3283    Senator Hickenlooper. I ran down the hall to get here. I3284didn't want to miss my chance for a second question, second3285round of questions. And again, thank you for your service as a3286governor, all the way through your career. You have shown a3287real inclination, both through your government service and3288through your philanthropy to engage in the community and to go3289to the community. I think the letters from the tribes and what3290I have heard from our tribes in Colorado, that you are held in3291very, very high esteem, I think, across this country, and I3292think that is going to be a powerful thing.3293    I have one curious question. I think they are still doing3294it, where the Western Governors' Association, do they still3295meet with the Secretary of the Interior in December, or have3296they stopped doing that?3297    Mr. Burgum. There has been a tradition to meet with the3298Secretary of Interior when they have their annual meeting in3299Washington, DC, which is usually in late January, early3300February. And I would look forward to having the opportunity3301for that invitation, if you know anybody there that could send3302me one.3303    Senator Hickenlooper. Well, just, I knew that other3304governors were watching our discussion, so I wanted to make3305sure I got that on there.3306    Mr. Burgum. I think your own Governor Polis might be the3307current chair, so maybe----3308    Senator King. This governor thing is getting kind of thick,3309isn't it?3310    [Laughter.]3311    Senator Hickenlooper. Well, it's distilled down pretty3312much--just us left.3313    I want to talk a little bit about the Colorado River, and3314it's at least--it's a 25-year drought, a longer-term drought,3315and we are able to go back--this is the geologist in me--but3316there are sediments throughout the Grand Canyon that can be3317correlated, and this appears to be the worst drought in 10,0003318years. I mean, this is a serious drought, and you have 403319million people that depend on this, and we have been working3320aggressively with the Lower Basin states, and the Upper Basin3321states, and one of the things now is, even before you began3322running for the highest office, the work that you did around3323water in North Dakota, with roughly the largest investments in3324water infrastructure ever, but half of it was for making sure3325you have clean water and then half of it was to make sure you3326are protecting against flood. I thought it was a great model3327for what the Department of the Interior would have.3328    And I think you have to look at the Colorado River in that3329sense, too. I think that the Bureau of Reclamation plays a3330significant role there, but I think a strong leader being able3331to find and incentivize those innovations of how do we make3332sure we are saving water and doing more with the water that we3333have, rather than fighting over it? And there is a long3334tradition in the West that ``Whiskey is for drinking--water is3335for fighting,'' as we said last week.3336    Anyway, just speak a little bit about that, of how you look3337at working with Colorado River, but there are a whole number of3338river basins that are in drought right now.3339    Mr. Burgum. Yes, and we have got a tremendous water3340resource in this country when we think about the Great Lakes,3341you think about the Columbia, you think about the Yukon. The3342Mississippi sometimes is flooding when the Colorado is in3343drought. We just, maybe, don't have it in all the right places3344at the right time, and we have got population centers. And so,3345I think, again, with, you know, smart planning, innovation,3346collaboration, when we have been successful in North Dakota3347with public-private partnerships, it has included, you know,3348solutions, again, with great help from Senator Hoeven playing a3349huge role on the federal. I mean, one of the projects we have3350there is a couple billion dollars. It's one-third federal, it's3351one-third local with the local sales tax, I mean, huge buy-in3352locally, and then the state stepping up and participating. And3353when we did that together--this project is going to get done in3354six and a half or seven years as opposed to 20 or 25, or never,3355you know, because we have that experience in North Dakota, too.3356We have water projects at the federal level that were started3357in the 1960s that still haven't fulfilled their full mission.3358    Senator Hickenlooper. Right.3359    Mr. Burgum. So anyway, I think there is an opportunity to3360work together to come up with solutions.3361    Senator Hickenlooper. And that timeliness does magnify what3362can get done.3363    The Bureau of Reclamation has done a lot work in Colorado3364and across the West, and I think I am universal that I haven't3365heard a single senator, Republican or Democrat, complain about3366how they have approached this. They have a bunch of projects3367that are mid-way, and I am hopeful that--I know there is a lot3368of talk about a tax cut and a lot of talk about how they are3369going to pay for that tax cut. Hopefully, we can protect those3370funds that have been committed to various water projects,3371because the worst thing you can have, and this has happened to3372Colorado two or three times over the past several decades,3373where you get halfway, you are building something and then all3374of a sudden, the support goes away.3375    Mr. Burgum. Yes, agree. I mean, having secure and3376predictable forms of capital for these projects, when you have3377the instability, the uncertainty, then the people that are3378bidding on the projects bid higher. They have to take out more3379risk on their side. They, you know, there are insurance3380companies that are supporting them on the private side saying,3381don't go, don't do this. When we were able to go to the public-3382private partnership and we could create certainty that they3383would have the permits, that lowered the cost dramatically, and3384not only the time to get it done, but it also lowered the cost.3385    Senator Hickenlooper. That is music to my ears, and we3386agree completely. So we will remember this conversation three3387years from now, I am sure. Who knows what the future will3388bring, but I appreciate that commitment to the long-term3389solutions, I think, that is necessary on almost every level in3390this country.3391    Mr. Burgum. Great, thank you, Senator.3392    Senator Hickenlooper. Thank you.3393    The Chairman. Senator Hoeven.3394    Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Chair.3395    One quick item for the record. As you know, I passed3396legislation to keep horses in the Theodore Roosevelt National3397Park. I am a horse fan. You and your wife are horse fans. I3398just want to know that you will commit for the record to3399continue to work on that very important issue with me.3400    Mr. Burgum. Absolutely. And for the record, people should3401know that as popular as Senator Hoeven is in our state, the3402horses in the national park have even more followers on social3403media than he does.3404    [Laughter.]3405    Senator Hoeven. Yeah, no question.3406    And then, just one final item. I think you have3407demonstrated to both sides of the aisle your absolute3408willingness to work with everybody to achieve good outcomes and3409a good outcome for this country. And that is exactly what we3410want in somebody that goes into these important positions. And3411so, thank you. Thank you to Kathryn. And then, just if there is3412anything for the record that you want to add to the record, I3413would just give you this opportunity before turning things back3414to the Chairman.3415    And again, I want to thank both the Chairman and the3416Ranking Member as well.3417    Mr. Burgum. Well, the only thing I would do quickly is3418close with gratitude to Chairman Lee and Ranking Member3419Heinrich. Thank you for your time ahead of time. Thank you for3420making your members available to me for meetings ahead of time.3421And thanks for this great dialogue and discussion today.3422    I received a lot of invitations from members to come and3423visit. I would be remiss if I didn't, before I leave, extend an3424invitation on behalf of Senator Hoeven, Senator Cramer, and3425myself to come to the grand opening of the Theodore Roosevelt3426Presidential Library and Museum, which is currently scheduled3427for July 4, 2026. And it's an official USA 250 event, and of3428course, it's going to be an opportunity to tell the story of3429leadership and citizenship and conservation that really began3430during the time when Theodore Roosevelt spent time in North3431Dakota. His wife and his mother tragically died on the same day3432in the same house, on Valentine's Day of 1884. And he had a3433newborn infant daughter that was two days old. He handed that3434off to his sister and he got on the train and he was deeply3435despondent and went West and remade himself from--he had a3436childhood that was full of sickness, and he went from a sickly3437easterner and became a rough-and-tumble westerner, a cowboy,3438learned the hard way out there with a lot of time in the saddle3439and built the Elkhorn Ranch.3440    And from then, he developed his thoughts about conservation3441in this country, and we know the story that went from there.3442That, you know, led him to become the Rough Rider that he was,3443that propelled him into becoming a governor, formed the3444National Governors' Association, saved football, I mean, now3445the largest viewed sport, and the NCAA was formed because3446Theodore Roosevelt was listening to concerns from mothers, as3447too many of their sons were dying of head injuries playing3448football in the Ivy League schools, without protections. And3449so, he said, let's come up with some standard safety3450protections.3451    So there are many stories about T.R. that haven't been3452told, like that, but the only President to receive a Medal of3453Honor for his time in the military, one of his sons also3454received a Medal of Honor, who was there at Normandy in World3455War II, but an incredible story. And of course, the Nobel Peace3456Prize that he received for negotiating the settlement between3457Russia and Japan. And he wrote more books than all the other3458Presidents combined. He wrote more letters than Jefferson and3459Washington. We are in the process of digitizing all of that.3460This will be first digital presidential library. It will be one3461of the must sustainable buildings built in North America. And3462it's in the heart of the Badlands that he loved, at a gateway3463community that goes into the Theodore Roosevelt National Park.3464    And in closing, I would say, you know, someone asked, this3465Fourth of July are you going to have fireworks per tradition3466when you open a presidential library? All living Presidents are3467invited, so we may, if they all show up, we may not need to3468have additional fireworks.3469    [Laughter.]3470    Mr. Burgum. But it will be great because there is a lot of3471what we know about Theodore Roosevelt that still lives on3472today, and think about the discussions we are having. The3473Panama Canal wouldn't have happened without him, and how3474important that was for our country during World War II, and how3475important it is for our future going forward.3476    And water, of course, in Arizona, some of the original3477water systems in Arizona were dedicated and created by Theodore3478Roosevelt. One of the first wildlife refuges that he made in3479the country was in North Dakota at Stump Lake. He sent us on a3480way to build out the National Park System as we know it right3481now. So it's with a bit of serendipity and a great amount of3482excitement that, as Secretary of Interior, I will look forward3483to being at that opening along with all of you. This Committee3484is all officially invited as of right now. It would be great to3485have you all there.3486    And with that, again, thank you, Senators, and especially,3487thank you Senators Hoeven and Cramer, for your support, your3488friendship, and your mentorship for all these years.3489    The Chairman. Thank you, Governor.3490    It has been a great hearing, and I appreciate the3491participation of all the members of the staff, members of the3492Committee, and especially our Capitol Police force for keeping3493us safe today.3494    I am sure that given all the time he spent in North Dakota,3495Theodore Roosevelt learned correctly to pronounce the name of3496the animal that is called the ``Bizon.''3497    [Laughter.]3498    Senator Burgum. It does have a z, I agree with Senator3499Hoeven.3500    The Chairman. It's got a z. It's a z. Well it's not a3501silent z, it's just an invisible one.3502    [Laughter.]3503    The Chairman. With all that----3504    Senator King. Mr. Chairman, do you know what the lady3505buffalo said to her little boy as he was going off to school?3506    The Chairman. Oh no, oh no, I don't. What did she say?3507    Senator King. ``Bye, son.''3508    [Laughter.]3509    The Chairman. That's it.3510    Senator King. I would also mention that Teddy Roosevelt----3511    Senator Hoeven. I love it. I just love it.3512    The Chairman. Going to open up a whole new debate----3513    Senator King. He coined the term ``malefactors of great3514wealth.'' I will just leave it at that.3515    The Chairman. Hoeven is going to be telling that one for3516weeks.3517    The record will stand open until 6:00 p.m. today for3518questions for the record.3519    We stand adjourned.3520    [Whereupon, at 1:08 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]35213522                      APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED35233524                              ----------35253526[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]35273528                                 [all]