Hearings to examine options to reduce catastrophic wildfire, including H.R.471, to expedite under the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969 and improve forest management activities on National Forest System lands, on public lands under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Land Management, and on Tribal lands to return resilience to overgrown, fire-prone forested lands.

1[Senate Hearing 119-27]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                                                         S. Hrg. 119-2756                  TO REVIEW H.R. 471, THE FIX OUR FORESTS7                   ACT, AND OPTIONS TO REDUCE CATA-8                   STROPHIC WILDFIRE910=======================================================================1112                                HEARING1314                               BEFORE THE1516                            SUBCOMMITTEE ON17                  CONSERVATION, FORESTRY, NATURAL RESOURCES,18                              AND BIOTECHNOLOGY1920                                 OF THE2122                       COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE,23                        NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY2425                          UNITED STATES SENATE2627                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2829                             FIRST SESSION3031                               __________3233                             March 6, 20253435                               __________3637                       Printed for the use of the38           Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry3940 [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]4142                  Available on http://www.govinfo.gov/4344                                __________4546                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE4759-496 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 20254849-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------5051           COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY5253                    JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas, Chairman54MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky            AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota55JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota            MICHAEL F. BENNET, Colorado56JONI ERNST, Iowa                     TINA SMITH, Minnesota57CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi        RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois58ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas               CORY BOOKER, New Jersey59TOMMY TUBERVILLE, Alabama            BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico60JAMES C. JUSTICE, West Virginia      RAPHAEL WARNOCK, Georgia61CHARLES GRASSLEY, Iowa               PETER WELCH, Vermont62JOHN THUNE, South Dakota             JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania63DEB FISCHER, Nebraska                ADAM SCHIFF, California64JERRY MORAN, Kansas                  ELISSA SLOTKIN, Michigan6566               Fitzhugh Elder IV, Majority Staff Director67                Caleb Crosswhite, Majority Chief Counsel68                    Jessica L. Williams, Chief Clerk69                Lauren Santabar, Minority Staff Director70                 Chu-Yuan Hwang, Minority Chief Counsel7172                              ----------7374    Subcommittee on Conservation, Forestry, Natural Resources, and75                             Biotechnology7677                     ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas, Chair78JIM JUSTICE, West Virginia           MICHAEL BENNET, Colorado, Ranking79JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota                Member80JOHN THUNE, South Dakota             BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico81JONI ERNST, Iowa                     RAPHAEL WARNOCK, Georgia82CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi        PETER WELCH, Vermont83                                     ADAM SCHIFF, California8485                           C O N T E N T S8687                              ----------8889                        Thursday, March 6, 20259091                                                                   Page9293Subcommittee Hearing:9495To Review H.R. 471, The Fix Our Forests Act, and Options To96  Reduce Catastrophic Wildfire...................................     19798                              ----------99100                    STATEMENTS PRESENTED BY SENATORS101102Marshall, Hon. Roger, U.S. Senator from the State of Kansas......     1103Bennet, Hon. Michael F., U.S. Senator from the State of Colorado.     3104105                               WITNESSES106107Weiner, Matt, Chief Executive Officer, Megafire Action...........     6108Beum, Frank R., Retired Regional Forester, Rocky Mountain Region,109  Member of Board of Directors, National Association of Forest110  Service Retirees...............................................     8111Vredenburg, Tim, Director, Department of Forest Management, Cow112  Creek Band of Umpqua Tribe of Indians..........................    10113Houck, Hon. Jonathan, County Commissioner, Board of County114  Commissioners, Gunnison County, CO.............................    11115Gordon, Robert, Senior Vice President, Policy, Research and116  International, American Property Casualty Insurance Association    13117118                              ----------119120                                APPENDIX121122Prepared Statements:123    Weiner, Matt.................................................    34124    Beum, Frank..................................................    44125    Vredenburg, Tim..............................................    47126    Houck, Jonathan..............................................    51127    Gordon, Robert...............................................    62128129Document(s) Submitted for the Record:130Marshall, Hon. Roger:131    Association of Firetech Innovation, letter for the Record....    80132    Coalition, letter for the Record.............................    83133    Congressional Sportsmen's Foundation, letter for the Record..    85134    Family Farm Alliance, letter for the Record..................    88135    Federation of American Scientists, letter for the Record.....    98136    National Association of State Foresters, letter for the137      Record.....................................................   100138    National Cattlemen's Beef Association, letter for the Record.   102139    Outdoor Alliance, letter for the Record......................   105140    Tree Care Industry Association, letter for the Record........   111141    United States Forest Service, letter for the Record..........   114142Bennet, Hon. Michael:143    Karuk Tribe, letter for the Record...........................   118144    Wilderness Watch, letter for the Record......................   120145Schiff, Hon. Adam:146    Lomakatsi Restoration Project, letter for the Record.........   125147Lujan, Hon. Ben:148    National Young Farmers Coalition, letter for the Record......   127149150Question and Answer:151Weiner, Matt:152    Written response to questions from Hon. Michael Bennet.......   132153    Written response to questions from Hon. Adam Schiff..........   135154Beum, Frank:155    Written response to questions from Hon. Michael Bennet.......   139156    Written response to questions from Hon. Amy Klobuchar........   140157    Written response to questions from Hon. Adam Schiff..........   141158Vredenburg, Tim:159    Written response to questions from Hon. Michael Bennet.......   142160    Written response to questions from Hon. Amy Klobuchar........   144161Houck, Jonathan:162    Written response to questions from Hon. Michael Bennet.......   145163    Written response to questions from Hon. Amy Klobuchar........   146164    Written response to questions from Hon. Peter Welch..........   147165    Written response to questions from Hon. Adam Schiff..........   149166Gordon, Robert:167    Written response to questions from Hon. Michael Bennet.......   152168    Written response to questions from Hon. Adam Schiff..........   154169170  TO REVIEW H.R. 471, THE FIX OUR FORESTS ACT, AND OPTIONS TO REDUCE171                         CATASTROPHIC WILDFIRE172173                              ----------174175                        THURSDAY, MARCH 6, 2025176177                                        U.S. Senate178    Subcommittee on Conservation, Forestry, Natural Resources,179and Biotechnology180          Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry181                                                    Washington, DC.182    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 11:12 a.m., in183Room 328A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Roger Marshall184presiding.185    Present: Senators Marshall [presiding], Boozman, Justice,186Hoeven, Bennet, Klobuchar, Booker, Lujan, Warnock, and Schiff.187188 STATEMENT OF HON. ROGER MARSHALL, U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE189                           OF KANSAS190191    Chairman Marshall. Well, good morning and welcome,192everybody. It is my privilege to call this hearing to order. I193would like to thank our witnesses for taking time out of their194busy schedules to come share their expertise and perspectives195on the Fix Our Forests Acts, H.R. 471, which the House passed196for the second time by an overwhelming vote of 279 to 141 in197January 2025, just a month or so ago.198    We know wildfires are indifferent to Federal, State,199Tribal, and private property jurisdictions, and we have all200seen the destruction catastrophic wildfire can cause on our201rural and urban communities. Just this week, we are witnessing202fires threatening lives and property in the Carolinas, and203unfortunately, recent history is replete with incidents204illustrating the devastating impacts fires have on our205communities, from the 2018 Camp Fire in Paradise, California,206to the 2023 Lahaina fires in Maui, Hawaii, to the 2025 Southern207California fires as well.208    In order to treat an issue, first, we must identify the209symptoms, diagnose the root cause of the problem, and implement210scientifically sound treatments. The loss of human life and211property from these fires are an acute and painful symptom of a212disease that is not working. The cause of these fires is rooted213in misguided policies that go all the way back to the Forest214Service 1930's so-called 10 AM policy, which requires all fires215to be extinguished by 10 a.m. the day after they are216discovered. These causes have been compounded by the Federal217Government's inability or unwillingness to treat the right218acres at the right time at the right scale over numerous219administrations.220    Treating this problem comes in the form of an all-of-the-221above approach to modernizing the Federal technological toolbox222for assessing and identifying wildfire risk, facilitating early223response and suppression, and updating the public-private224partnership model for Federal, State, Tribal, county, and225private landowners who address fire risk rather than226jurisdictional or political subdivision boundaries.227    Every fire is unique. My dad was the Chief of a Fire228Department for years before becoming Chief of Police, and229indeed, he would tell me, every fire was very unique. The most230catastrophic fires all have similarities. Proper management of231our Nation's forestlands can help prevent a small spark from232turning into a raging fire with devastating consequences.233    My own State of Kansas is not immune to wildfire. In 2021,234strong winds and dry air combined to create ideal conditions235for wildfires in the grasslands of Kansas and central Kansas in236the Ford County Fire. That fire was clocked at over 180 miles237an hour at the top of wind turbines sailing through those238prairies. Not all management methods for the grasslands of239Kansas mirror what the science tells us should be conducted on240forested acres, but the important role of proper management on241our landscapes ring true for both.242    The Fix Our Forests Act, which we will call FOFA for the243rest of the hearing, is a rare bipartisan opportunity for244Congress to provide the United States Forest Service, the245Department of the Interior, States, Tribes, counties, and246private partners with a modernized and streamlined toolbox to247fight fire. Regardless of one another's views on the248appropriate use of Federal lands and resources, we all need to249help mitigate the frequency and intensity of catastrophic250wildfires while ensuring the scientifically sound and251sustainable stewardship of our Federal lands.252    The Fix Our Forests Act provides agencies with critically253needed and appropriately calibrated increases in the acreage254limitations for categorical exclusions to forest managers,255increases which agency analyses have been shown will help256provide the flexibility to better address forest management. To257be clear, categorical exclusions are not a free pass for an258agency to go in and clearcut forests, as some are led to259believe. They are one way for Federal agencies to comply with260the NEPA based upon extensive uses of prior environmental261assessments that showed no significant effect and are still262subject to the scoping before moving forward.263    FOFA instructs the Federal Government to identify at the264fireshed scale the top 20 percent of firesheds that are at risk265for fire exposure over the next five years in order to better266focus limited resources. FOFA permanently fixes in statute the267disastrous Ninth Circuit's Cottonwood decision, which the Obama268Administration petitioned the Supreme Court to overturn. It has269led to delays in management projects through unnecessary and270duplicative scoping in an attempt to avoid frivolous271litigation. FOFA also adopts litigation reforms used by past272Republican and Democratic Administrations in statute to limit273litigation delays to essential projects. FOFA strengthens Good274Neighbor Authority, a critical and overwhelmingly successful275program that has allowed local and State partners the ability276to supplement the work the Forest Service is not able to do on277their own lands.278    I am honored to recognize the Ranking Member, Senator279Michael Bennet, for his comments.280281 STATEMENT OF HON. MICHAEL BENNET, U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE282                          OF COLORADO283284    Senator Bennet. Thank you, Chairman. Chairman Boozman, I do285not know if you would like to go before me. I would be happy--286are you sure? All right. Thank you. Well, thank you for being287here. Chairman Marshall, thank you so much for your partnership288and for coming to Colorado last year to have a hearing. I hope289we can repay the visit. I would like to thank you for your290leadership in organizing today's hearing, and thank you to all291the witnesses for joining us today.292    My message is simple, and it is if we are committed to the293health of our forests and our watersheds, the Federal294Government must be a more reliable partner for communities and295local governments. In Colorado, our national forests underpin296our economy and our way of life. Our forests and watersheds297protect our water supplies, support agriculture, drive outdoor298recreation and sustain diverse wildlife habitats.299    Today, they are facing unprecedented threats. Drought and300wildfire, of course, are at the top of the list. In the West,301wildfire season is no longer a season, but a year-round reality302for all our communities. These wildfires do not just burn303trees. They endanger lives, they devastate communities, and304they destroy critical infrastructure.305    The effects of western wildfires are not just felt in306Colorado but across the entire country. Colorado's national307forests and their watersheds supply water to 19 States and308parts of Mexico. They are the source of water for tens of309millions of people. Farmers and ranchers from the Mississippi310Delta to California, water is our lifeblood in the West, and311our national forests are the source of their supply. Without312that water, there is not a single town or city in my State that313would exist. There is not a county that would exist. There is314not a farm or a ranch that would exist. The health of our315watersheds and the health of our forests are exactly the same316thing. You cannot have one without the other.317    We need to be thoughtful about our approach to managing our318forests. A one-size-fits-all approach will not work. Top-down319management without the input of local communities and forestry320experts risk harming our economy, our sensitive habitats, and321the water supply that we are trying to protect in the West.322    As we will discuss today, Colorado has a long track record323of successful collaborative forest management projects that324bring together local and Federal partners, including the timber325industry, local government, scientists, tribes, and326conservationists. As wildfire risk increases across the West,327the Federal Government should empower those types of328partnerships and make their work easier, not harder.329    Unfortunately, taking a chainsaw to the Forest Service330workforce and funding makes life harder for Coloradans, makes331it harder for citizens in the West, and it does nothing to332advance local forest management and partnership. Axing the333dedicated public servants who manage our national forests is334not just short-sighted, it is downright dangerous.335    Much of Colorado is already in drought, months before336summer has even started. Right now, snowpack is below average337in all but one of our major watersheds, and temperatures have338hit record highs over the weekend, reaching 10 to 15 degrees339above the historical average.340    Whether it is the Fix Our Forests Act or any other piece of341legislation, it will not matter what we do here in Congress if342the administration is simultaneously undermining our Land343Management Agencies and withholding the resources they need to344do their job. I appreciate the goals of the Fix Our Forests345Act, which we will discuss more today. I really do. If done346thoughtfully, reducing wildfire risk through active management347is an important goal. By the way, we are running out of time. I348worry that the bill, as it is currently written, places an349unreasonable burden on communities and ties the hands of local350governments, potentially undermining the collaborative approach351needed to move forest management projects forward.352    I recognize that the wildfire crisis affects us all, and we353have a responsibility to find a bipartisan solution. I am ready354to work with my colleagues on both sides of the aisle to355advance legislation that includes the forest policy challenges356and investments that are needed to reduce wildfire risk and357improve the Federal Government's work with States, Local, and358Tribal partners. After all, they are called national forests359for a reason.360    Over the last decade, we have spent $6 billion on wildfire361risk reduction work, and $38 billion, six times that much, on362wildfire response and recovery. It just makes sense, Mr.363Chairman. It takes $50,000 an acre to fight a fire. It is a lot364cheaper to be able to do it on the front end than that. If we365do not invest now in wildfire mitigation and watershed366restoration and the Federal workforce tasked with doing that367work, it will cost us hundreds of billions of dollars a year in368firefighting and recovery costs in the coming decade, to say369nothing of the damage to our infrastructure, to our way of370life.371    I have told Chuck Schumer over and over and over again, Mr.372Chairman, these national forests are more important to us from373an infrastructure perspective than the Lincoln Tunnel is to New374York. He does not necessarily agree with that, but it is true.375Do not tell him I said that.376    We have to get serious about this. No level of government377can tackle this alone. I am very grateful, Mr. Chairman, for378this hearing today, and I look forward to hearing from our379excellent witnesses and working with my colleagues of both380parties to protect our forests, our communities, and our381future. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.382    Chairman Marshall. Well, thank you, Senator Bennet.383Unfortunately, we are not able to have a representative from384USDA here to testify on the Fix Our Forests Act. However, the385Committee has received written testimony from the USDA386detailing the Forest Service's views of the legislative387proposal, as well as additional letters of support. I request388unanimous consent to submit this testimony and these letters389for the record as part of my opening statement. Without390objection, so ordered.391    [The letters can be found on page 80-124 in the appendix.]392    Chairman Marshall. We will turn to our introductions now.393Senator Schiff is not here, so I am going to introduce Mr. Matt394Weiner. Matt Weiner is the CEO and Founder of Megafire Action,395the first nonprofit organization focused solely on advancing396policy solutions to the megafire crisis. He has held senior397roles in the U.S. Congress and California State Legislature,398most recently as the Executive Director of California's399Democratic Congressional Delegation in the House of400Representatives, where he was responsible for advancing the401delegation's statewide policy priorities.402    Next, I believe the Ranking Member is going to introduce403two of his constituents from Colorado.404    Senator Bennet. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is my pleasure405to introduce the two witnesses that I invited to testify at406today's hearing. Both witnesses are incredibly knowledgeable407and understand the importance of forest management and the work408that goes into stewarding our public lands. I have invited them409to be here today to speak about their experience in wildfire410mitigation and share their perspectives on the importance of411investing in land management projects and agencies.412    Our first witness, Commissioner Jonathan Houck, is413currently serving as Gunnison County Commissioner, a position414he has held since 2013. He is a lifelong public servant. Well,415actually it says longtime public servant, but I also know he is416a lifelong public servant, first serving on the City Planning417and Zoning Commission, then for two terms on the Gunnison City418Council, which included serving as Mayor. I have known419Commissioner Houck for over a decade, and he has been kind420enough to invite me to his county over and over again to hike,421camp, and fish numerous times.422    One of the first things you notice about when you visit423Gunnison County, which is, by the way, about 1\1/2\ times the424size of the State of Delaware, is that its national forests are425foundational to its economy and core to the identity of the426people who live there. Forests in Gunnison County supply timber427to the last remaining timber whip mill on the Western Slope. It428attracts visitors from around the world with over 1,000 miles429of trails and produces oil and gas and coal. I cannot think of430anybody better here to talk about the value of forests to rural431western communities.432    I thank also Frank Beum, who is here as well. Mr. Beum433formerly served as the Regional Forestry for the Rocky Mountain434region, where I had the pleasure of working with him. He is now435a member of the Board of Directors for the National Association436of Forest Service Retirees. Mr. Beum has worked at every level437of the Forest Service, starting his first role as a seasonal438forestry technician in the Rio Grande National Forest and later439serving as a Legislative Specialist in the Washington office.440Notwithstanding that experience, he was willing to come here441and testify. These are just two examples among the many other442roles that have given him the unique perspective to understand443the deep importance of the work done at all levels of the444Forest Service. We are delighted that he is here today.445    Mr. Chairman, I will turn it back over to you.446    Chairman Marshall. All right. Thank you, Senator Bennet.447    I am going to next introduce Mr. Tim Vredenburg, originally448from southwest Oregon, for the last 20 years, he has assisted449private landowners and Indian tribes manage forestlands while450navigating challenging issues like wildfire, endangered451species, and an ever changing regulatory landscape. Since 2012,452he served as the Cow Creek Band of Umpqua Tribe of Indians as453their Director of Forest Management. In his current capacities,454he is working to develop an expanded timberland base that will455provide for the cultural and economic well-being of the tribe456for many generations to come.457    Next, I would like to introduce Mr. Robert Gordon. Mr.458Gordon is the Senior Vice President, Policy, Research and459International for the American Property Casualty Insurance460Association. He is responsible for working with the461association's members to develop and frame public policy462positions on the opportunities and challenges facing the463property casualty insurance industry at the State, Federal, and464international levels. Previously, Mr. Gordon was the465Parliamentarian, Senior Counsel, and Ethics Compliance Officer466for the Committee on Financial Services in the U.S. House of467Representatives.468    Now, we will turn to our witness testimony. Again, thank469you to all the witnesses for being here and the time preparing.470    Mr. Weiner, you are now recognized for your statement.471472  STATEMENT OF MATT WEINER, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, MEGAFIRE473                             ACTION474475    Mr. Weiner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.476    Chairman Marshall, Ranking Member Bennet, and distinguished477Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to478testify today. My name is Matt Weiner, and I am the Founder and479CEO of Megafire Action, a nonprofit organization founded on a480simple premise, megafire is solvable, and therefore,481policymakers have an obligation to do more to solve it.482    As we saw in January, the megafire crisis is continuing to483accelerate, and our systems are continuing to be overwhelmed484year after year. This is a nonpartisan emergency that requires485a bipartisan response, and the Fix Our Forests Act is an486excellent place to start.487    Before I dive into the support for the bill, I want to make488one thing clear. We cannot fix our forests if we have nobody to489fix our forests. For decades, we have completely failed our490workforce, especially our wildland firefighters, who have been491asked to do too much with too little for far too long. The492current firings and freezing are only making things worse, but493this is a longstanding problem. It is appalling that we are494continuing to put our firefighters in this position, and a495permanent, well-resourced Federal wildfire workforce remains an496urgent need, and Congress should step in to stop the bleeding.497    On the bill, there is a lot to like about the Fix Our498Forests Act, but we see it largely as focused on two499challenges: permitting reform and technology adoption, both500essential to scaling up effective wildfire mitigation.501    Let me start with permitting reform. We know selective502thinning and prescribed fire can restore ecosystem balance and503reduce risk, yet we are nowhere near meeting the scale that is504needed. Last year, the Forest Service treated 800,000 acres of505the highest-risk landscapes, which was a record high, but is506still far short of the millions of acres a year needed to reach507our targets.508    We know that treatment saves money. Senators, I have before509you a slide deck from our friends at Vibrant Planet that510underscores the value of mitigation investments. A recent511analysis by them found that $76 million in projects protected512$2.1 billion in structures. The ROI is undeniable.513    One major barrier to this is the slow and costly permitting514process. The Forest Service estimates that planning and515assessments consume 40 percent of direct work and can516frequently lead to years of delays in getting projects off the517ground.518    I do want to note that there are legitimate reasons to be519concerned about changes to NEPA. Lessons forged in the timber520wars will not and should not be easily forgotten, but the facts521on the ground have changed, and our policies need to adapt. We522have seen that cutting red tape can get results. The 10,000523acre categorical exclusions for fuels reduction in the Lake524Tahoe Basin sped up treatment, helping stop the Caldor Fire525before it reached South Lake Tahoe. After losing 20 percent of526the world's giant sequoias to wildfires, the Forest Service527expedited NEPA review in 2022, enabling the Giant Sequoia Lands528Coalition to treat 54 percent of growth within just a few529years.530    Just last week, President Trump and Gavin Newsom both took531emergency action to remove regulatory hurdles and accelerate532fuels treatment on public lands. The people in charge of533managing risk understand that they need to get at this problem,534and the Fix Our Forests Act compliments these emergency535declarations by codifying in statute a process to ensure that536these efforts are targeted and successful.537    The bill expands limits on CEs from 3,000 to 10,000 acres,538providing land managers with flexibility to move beyond small539random acts of mitigation and toward strategic landscape-level540projects needed to move the needle in a serious way. By541focusing on the highest risk landscapes and the most impactful542treatments identified through the fireshed assessments, the543reforms in this bill target the most critical work on the544ground.545    Over the last few years, we have seen an explosion of546technology companies offering solutions at every phase of fire.547This is not a hypothetical where we need to go, but the548scalable technology already exists to make taxpayer-funded549programs more effective and help us reach our goals faster,550cheaper, and better. Yet these tools remain fragmented across551more than 50 Federal programs with strained budgets, leaving552the government unable to effectively deploy tech for those who553need it most when they need it most.554    The Fix Our Forests Act addresses this by creating a555Fireshed Center to improve wildfire decision-making across556prevention, suppression, and recovery. There is currently no557single entity responsible for evaluating, understanding, and558acting on risk across jurisdictions and landscapes in the559United States. Like a combat support agency at DoD, this center560will integrate real-time intelligence, predictive modeling, and561risk assessments to support firefighters, land managers, and562communities, and we need to ensure that the agency is built to563move fast.564    Beyond the center, we strongly support the Wildfire565Technology Testbed Program in the bill to spur private sector566innovation. Scaling these solutions quickly is absolutely567critical. To maximize impact, Congress should consider568expanding this provision to include deployment and authorize569existing funds for wildfire technology acquisition.570    In conclusion, the Fix Our Forests Act will move the571Federal Government toward a more proactive, science-driven572approach to wildfire management. The bipartisan effort, led by573Chairman Westerman and Representative Peters, has produced a574solid product, and I look forward to working with the Committee575to strengthen and refine this bill to maximize its impact.576    Thank you for the opportunity to speak today, and I look577forward to your questions.578    [The prepared statement of Mr. Weiner can be found on pages57934-43 in the appendix.]580    Chairman Marshall. Thank you so much.581    Mr. Beum, you are recognized.582583 STATEMENT OF FRANK R. BEUM, RETIRED REGIONAL FORESTER, ROCKY584    MOUNTAIN REGION, MEMBER OF BOARD OF DIRECTORS, NATIONAL585             ASSOCIATION OF FOREST SERVICE RETIREES586587    Mr. Beum. Thank you. Chairman Boozman, Ranking Member588Klobuchar, Chairman Marshall, Ranking Member Bennet, and589Members of the Committee, thank you for inviting me to testify590today. I am Frank Beum, and I serve on the Board of Directors591of the National Association of Forest Service Retirees. We are592a nonpartisan, professional, and science-based organization593comprising over 900 Forest Service Retirees and associates594dedicated to adapting to the challenges of today and tomorrow.595    Our members understand the importance of fiscal596responsibility, efficiency, and cost reductions, but we are597gravely concerned about the impacts to essential services598caused by recent actions to cut the Forest Service field-going599workforce. Steeper cuts to staff and programs are expected,600which will significantly impede the ability of the agency to601deliver critical goods and services to the American people.602This includes the work outlined in the Fix Our Forests Act.603    I retired from the Forest Service in May 2024, 43 years604after my first day as a seasonal forestry technician. I worked605in the woods, thinning tree stands with a chainsaw, marking606timber sales, and taking care of wilderness and recreation607areas before I moved into leadership roles, as Senator Bennet608mentioned.609    Turning to the act, in January 2024, NAFSR and 36 other610organizations representing millions of outdoor enthusiasts sent611a letter to Speaker of the House Mike Johnson and Minority612Leader Hakeem Jeffries supporting the Fix Our Forests Act. This613legislation would provide land managers with tools desperately614needed to strengthen the role of States, Tribes, local615government, collaborative groups, and other partners in forest616management. It will help the Forest Service staff plan and617implement more projects to reduce the threat of the wildfire618crisis.619    However, recent cuts imposed by the Department of620Government Efficiency will make it very difficult to deliver on621the promise of the legislation. These indiscriminate622reductions, along with nearly 1,000 staff who took deferred623resignations, are hollowing out the agency and jeopardizing the624future of America's forests. Ranchers, miners, loggers,625campers, hikers, skiers, hunters, anglers, and people who just626simply value clean drinking water will feel the impacts.627    Over 180 million people in more than 68,000 communities628rely on national forests for the drinking water. Spending by629visitors to national forests and grasslands contributes about630$10.3 billion annually to the U.S. economy and sustains more631than 140,000 family wage jobs that are the foundation of many632rural communities. All of this is at risk due to sweeping,633random staffing cuts that threaten the future of our public634land heritage.635    I have several examples to share. Approximately 3,400636Forest Service employees with less than one year of service in637their positions, mostly field-going forestry technicians, were638designated for firing simply because they were easy targets.639Many of those fired were military veterans, hired through640special authorities as a recognition of their service to our641country. More than 75 percent of those dismissed employees had642wildland fire qualifications, including on-the-ground643firefighting, not just support roles, but on-the-ground, boots-644on-the-ground firefighting.645    A couple other quick examples, six of seven members of a646timber strike team in the Rocky Mountain region were fired, and647several individuals hired to work on Hurricane Helene recovery648in North Carolina and Georgia were also fired. Now, some of649these employees that were hastily fired are being brought back650to do important work, but please do not underestimate that this651uncertainty has damaged morale and slowed work in wildland fire652prevention, timber management, and fire and storm recovery. As653a result, thousands of communities will face greater wildfire654risks as planned fuel reduction projects will go uncompleted.655Businesses reliant on forest-related goods and services will656suffer, and the agency will struggle to meet the657administration's goal of wood independence.658    The Forest Service, of course, works for the executive659branch, and the Forest Service has always adjusted to660priorities of incoming administration. Some of these cuts will661make it difficult to do so. If the Forest Service continues to662be hollowed out and can no longer provide essential services,663there may be calls to move these lands to States, counties, or664private ownership.665    President Teddy Roosevelt had it right. Public lands belong666to all Americans and should be managed under Federal667protection. Public lands held in public trust is a uniquely668American ideal, and they are the envy of the world. Forest669Service employees are real people, family, friends, and670neighbors, dedicated to caring for the land and delivering671services to the American people. They are dedicated public672servants who protect and conserve these lands. Without them to673do their work, our natural heritage will be lost, and the674intent of Fix Our Forests Act cannot be delivered.675    I want to just leave you with two thoughts. One, we676strongly support Fix Our Forests Act, and we are concerned that677the Forest Service will not be able to deliver upon that act678without critical resources and staff. With that, I thank you679again for the opportunity to testify, and I welcome your680questions.681    [The prepared statement of Mr. Beum can be found on pages68244-46 in the appendix.]683    Chairman Marshall. Thank you, Mr. Beum.684    Mr. Vredenburg, you are recognized for five minutes.685686  STATEMENT OF TIM VREDENBURG, DIRECTOR, DEPARTMENT OF FOREST687     MANAGEMENT, COW CREEK BAND OF UMPQUA TRIBE OF INDIANS688689    Mr. Vredenburg. Chair Marshall, Ranking Member Bennet, and690respected Members of the Committee, thank you for the691opportunity to speak with you today. My name is Tim Vredenburg,692and I serve as the Director of Forest Management for the Cow693Creek Umpqua Tribe of Indians located in Roseburg, Oregon. I am694here to express the tribe's support for H.R. 471, the Fix Our695Forests Act. We believe that this legislation is a critical696step in addressing the ever-growing wildfire crisis.697    The Cow Creek Umpqua is a tribe of just over 2,000 members.698Their lands are nested in a checkerboard of private, State, and699mostly Federal lands. Over the last 10 years, catastrophic700wildfires have burned nearly 20 percent of their reservation701and 1.1 million acres of their ancestral area. The majority of702the highest intensity fires have been on the Federal lands in703the areas that excluded management. Fires are returning to the704same places two, three, even four times, destroying the native705ecosystems and replacing them with invasive species.706    Our beautiful places, once lush, green forest, clean cold707water, places that I spent time with my family hunting, hiking,708fishing, they are destroyed. These fires have decimated tribal709lands and driven tribal members from their homes again and710again. This is why the Cow Creek Tribe is committed to an711approach of forest management, not just on their lands, but on712the neighboring Federal lands as well.713    You see, historic conditions, which were guided by tribal714management, supported 35 to 50 trees per acre, with a715scattering of open meadows. Today, many areas have over 1,500716trees per acre. This has exceeded the carrying capacity of our717forests. It has created unprecedented fuel loads, destabilized718above-ground carbon, and limited water resources. Fires that719once burned in a beneficial way now explode in catastrophic720infernos that burn so hot that they completely sterilize the721soil.722    We need regulatory certainty. The Cottonwood decision has723created uncertainty for our land managers. The Fix Our Forests724Act addresses this and presents an opportunity to update725woefully out-of-date land management plans. Agencies fail to do726plan revisions because it takes too much time and they are too727expensive. One of the biggest challenges we face is the728lengthy, bureaucratic review process. We need to streamline729this process, and we must implement forest restoration projects730at a landscape scale. We have hundreds of thousands of acres of731land just around the Cow Creek reservation that need treated732right now.733    We appreciate that the act expands categorical exclusions734to allow for projects up to 10,000 acres, that it modifies the735Good Neighbor Authority, empowering tribes to reinvest in736future forest restoration projects, and that it acknowledges737the value of cultural burning. The tribal provisions are a good738start, and it is worth exploring new ways to leverage the739passion, expertise, and the fervent will of our tribal740partners. If asked and activated, tribes can vastly improve and741amplify the quality and impact of the Federal Land Managers.742    This is not just about our forests; it is about clean743water, healthy air, wildlife, recreation, and livable744communities. Each catastrophic fire that burns leaves behind745degraded soils, damaged fish habitats, hazardous smoke, smoke746that fills the lungs of our children.747    Approach the crisis with innovation and out-of-the-box748thinking. Consider expanding the law to protect even more749forests. Specifically, the Forest Service should consider the750proximity of tribal lands when designating high-priority751firesheds, not just a structure count.752    This has to be a bipartisan effort. Unnecessary controversy753surrounding forest management has become the kryptonite of754forest health. We need to fundamentally rethink how we manage755our Federal forestlands. To save our forests, we must manage756them, and we must manage them in their entirety. Tribes have757long been stewards of these lands. We must move beyond the758short-term fixes and embrace real, large-scale solutions.759    I urge the Members of the Committee on both sides of the760aisle to pass meaningful legislation that empowers those of us761on the ground to act quickly because we can break free of this762cycle of catastrophic wildfire. Thank you.763    [The prepared statement of Mr. Vredenburg can be found on764pages 47-50 in the appendix.]765    Chairman Marshall. Thank you, Mr. Vredenburg.766    Mr. Houck, you are recognized for five minutes.767768STATEMENT OF HON. JONATHAN HOUCK, COUNTY COMMISSIONER, BOARD OF769        COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, GUNNISON COUNTY, COLORADO770771    Mr. Houck. Thank you, Chairman Marshall and Ranking Member772Bennet and Members of the Subcommittee, and thank you for the773opportunity to testify today, especially at this key moment of774crisis for our Federal Land Management Agencies. I am a County775Commissioner representing Gunnison County, Colorado, and like776most residents of Gunnison County, I am dedicated to the777stewardship of our cherished Federal public lands.778    Gunnison County comprises 2.1 million acres, 1.7 of which779are Federal public lands managed by the Forest Service, the780Bureau of Land Management, and the National Park Service. To781put that in perspective, as Senator Bennet did, we are 1\1/2\782times the size of the State of Delaware and 80 percent are783Federal public lands. Gunnison County public lands are home to784the State's largest body of water, the largest coal mine, ski785area, and source of the marble that was used for the Lincoln786Memorial and Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. Gunnison County is787headwaters of the Gunnison River, the second-largest tributary788to the Colorado River system.789    In Gunnison County, our public lands are everything to us.790They are the foundation of our economy, our culture, our791values, and our way of life. We take seriously our commitment792to working with our Federal partners to support stewardship of793these public lands, not only for the residents of Gunnison794County, but for all Americans, and not just for today, but for795the future as well.796    I have submitted written testimony expressing my views on797the Fix Our Forests Act, and I appreciate you making that part798of the record.799    As I explain more fully in my written testimony, the bill800is a compilation of a variety of provisions, making technical801amendments to a variety of forest laws, codifying existing802programs, granting new authorities, fine-tuning directions, and803calling for new studies, many of which would be helpful804improvements. It also includes a variety of NEPA categorical805exclusions, restrictions on judicial review, and limitations on806consultations under the ESA that would be harmful to the807science-based community collaboration that has been the808hallmark of our success in public land decisionmaking in809Gunnison County.810    We depend on NEPA to guarantee that our community has a811seat at the table to work in an informed and cooperative manner812with the Forest Service to generate the best alternatives for813achieving desired conditions in our forest. We depend on814proactive approaches to conserving species so we can avoid815listing them. While litigation is an extremely rare occurrence,816we know that none of that is possible if the rule of law and817the potential for its enforcement by the courts is not818respected.819    Our situation in Gunnison County is both illustrative and820not unusual. As just two examples we have collaboratively821developed in recent years, two significant projects to increase822forest resilience and provide wood products to the market. The823Taylor Park Vegetation Management Plan and a Spruce Beetle and824Aspen Decline Project were both designated to be implemented825over a decade and cover tens of thousands of acres of national826forestland. They were collaboratively developed under NEPA and827in accordance with the ESA with a broad group of local828stakeholders.829    Those laws are not the problem. Forest Service capacity to830implement them is the problem. Those who know the Forest831Service already knew the agency had a significant staffing832crisis. The firing of hundreds of staff in Colorado over the833last few weeks has intensified that crisis considerably.834    In Gunnison County alone, between probationary firings and835the hiring freeze for both open positions and seasonal836employees, the Forest Service alone is short more than 50837employees that are critical to carrying out the most basic of838operations. This is significant and represents the issues in839just one of Colorado's 64 counties. Those fired and those840seasonal employees who have had their upcoming contracts841rescinded are hardworking Americans that mark timber sales,842clear trails, perform fire patrol, issue grazing permits,843prepare mineral leases, clean bathrooms, and assist visitors.844    We must stop this destruction and repair the substantial845damage that has already been done as the first critical846priority. If not stopped, these efforts will destroy our847Federal Land Management Agencies, and ultimately, the848communities like mine that depend on them to manage our public849lands.850    In other times, the issues compiled in the Fix Our Forests851Act would be of significant interest to Gunnison County, but852right now--and I know I can speak for many of my fellow County853Commissioners in Colorado and perhaps many across the West--854there are critical things we need from Congress regarding our855public lands. Here is what we desperately need from Congress856for our public lands.857    We need leadership to stop the destructive, arbitrary, and858inhumane firings of our Federal Land Managers, work with859communities to identify areas for increased efficiency and860increased capacity. It is worth noting, when seasonal personnel861are not hired, that impact actually ripples into the private862sector since their other seasonal employment is often tied to863other essential needs in our small rural communities.864Additionally, do not discount the gut punch to morale to those865who have not been eliminated and the increased anxiety created866by the current administration's approach to staffing.867    Finally, what is happening now with the firings and the868upcoming reduction in force actions will have a lasting and869chilling effect on the future of those contemplating a career870service in our public land agencies. If the true goal is to fix871our forests, then please start by fighting for the restoration872of the most basic staffing levels, both full-time and seasonal,873to do the good work already underway. Existing timber sales,874planned vegetation management actions, grazing permit renewals,875and other already-approved actions that will contribute to876healthier forest, better outcomes, and less wildfire are in877jeopardy right now because the workforce that carries out those878operations has been decimated.879    We cannot fix our forests without a skilled, dedicated,880professional workforce, not only at the Forest Service, but881also at the BLM and the Park Service. This is the critical work882that desperately needs attention. None of this should be883controversial or partisan. It is certainly not in Gunnison884County.885    Thank you again for the opportunity to testify. I would be886happy to answer any questions you have.887    [The prepared statement of Mr. Houck can be found on pages88851-61 in the appendix.]889    Chairman Marshall. Thank you, Mr. Houck.890    Next, Mr. Gordon, you are recognized for five minutes.891892  STATEMENT OF ROBERT GORDON, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT, POLICY,893    RESEARCH AND INTERNATIONAL, AMERICAN PROPERTY CASUALTY894                     INSURANCE ASSOCIATION895896    Mr. Gordon. Chairman Marshall and Ranking Member Bennet,897thank you for holding today's hearing. I am Robert Gordon, the898Senior Vice President of Policy, Research and International for899the American Property Casualty Insurance Association. APCIA900represents over 2/3 of the United States' home, auto and901business property casualty insurance market. APCIA strongly902supports the bipartisan Fix Our Forests Act.903    The California wildfires earlier this year caused between904$95-275 billion in economic losses, one of the worst wildfire905events in history. Insurers have already expedited over $6.9906billion in payments to help families and businesses recover,907and we expect to ultimately provide between $40-50 billion in908relief. That is roughly three times the homeowners' premiums909for the entire State for the entire year, and the regular910summer fire season has not yet even begun.911    Now, wildfires are endemic in the United States. There is912an average of roughly 70,000 wildfires per year over the last913four decades, but catastrophic wildfire losses to communities,914known as conflagrations, have dramatically escalated.915Conflagration losses over the last decade caused five times as916much damage as in prior decades. Now, there are a number of917reasons those losses are increasing so much. A majority of new918homes are being built in areas that are at high fire risk,919particularly in the wildland-urban interface next to forests920and other natural landscapes. In fact, in just the last year,921residential property exposures in the United States at high922risk of wildfire losses increased nearly 23 percent in just one923year.924    Inflation, particularly for building materials and lumber,925has skyrocketed. The estimated cost of replacing all the926buildings in the United States more than doubled over the last927decade. Worsening weather severity is exacerbating928precipitation and drought cycles that increase dry brush and929fuel loads, so the climate is having a particular impact on930wildfires. Legal system abuse is compounding the disaster931costs, and we are now seeing 87 percent of wildfires are caused932by humans, accidentally or intentionally, with an increasing933number of the costliest and deadliest wildfires triggered by934utility equipment sparking during severe winds.935    Without more proactive mitigation, disaster preparedness,936and better coordinated response, these factors are going to937continue to drive escalating wildfire losses, damaging938ecosystems and the environment, and putting upward pressure on939the cost of homeowner's insurance and the cost of government940disaster aid.941    Insurers are doing our part to develop solutions. Insurers942have invested hundreds of millions of dollars in the Insurance943Institute for Business and Home Safety, IBHS. IBHS has944developed safety and mitigation standards for properties,945including fortified standards to protect against wind and946wildfire-prepared home standards to protect against947conflagrations. Insurers also participated in the948congressionally established Wildland Fire Mitigation and949Management Commission, including our APCIA CEO, and they made950over 100 recommendations, including support for the IBHS951wildfire safety standards.952    The Fix Our Forests Act incorporates many of those953recommendations, including requiring government coordination954for wildfire prediction, response, and recovery; supporting955local adoption of fire-resistant building methods, codes, and956standards; encouraging better fuel reduction; and supporting957more resilient utility infrastructure. Those are all very958important.959    Last December, Congress provided $110 billion in disaster960assistance, and California just requested another $40 billion961for January's wildfires. Unless we invest more up front in962wildfire mitigation, as both the Chairman and Ranking Member963have underscored, taxpayers are going to keep getting stuck964with ever-increasing costs for disaster response and recovery.965More people are going to lose their homes and communities,966insurance losses are going to skyrocket, and housing will be967less affordable.968    APCIA and insurers strongly support the bipartisan Fix Our969Forests Act to make those upfront investments. The act builds970on extensive safety research by insurers, the IBHS, the971Wildland Fire Mitigation and Management Commission, and would972facilitate implementation of proven safety standards and needed973government coordination.974    APCIA and insurers look forward to partnering with Members975of the Subcommittee to advance this legislation and work on976wildfire protections. We thank you for your leadership, and I977look forward to your questions.978    [The prepared statement of Mr. Gordon can be found on pages97962-78 in the appendix.]980    Chairman Marshall. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Gordon.981    I am going to ask just one question, and then we will turn982to the Ranking Member, and then I will come back at the end and983ask some questions if they were not picked up.984    I want to start by recognizing the great work that985Congressman Bruce Westerman from the State of Arkansas has done986on this, as well as Congressman Scott Peters from California.987Bruce is absolutely a subject expert on this, and he has been a988great teacher, and I recognize the Ranking Member's expertise989on this subject as well.990    I will just have one question to start with, and it is for991Mr. Vredenburg. Many people mischaracterize categorical992exclusions as an end run around NEPA. Can you explain why993larger categorical exclusions are critically needed and will994help mitigate future catastrophic fires while still ensuring995proper environmental reviews?996    Mr. Vredenburg. Yes. Thank you, Chairman. I will give an997example. The Cow Creek Tribe has a cooperative agreement under998the Tribal Forest Protection Act, working with the Umpqua999National Forest on attempting to restore and reduce the risk of1000fire to the Cow Creek Umpqua reservation. As we approach that1001problem, it is a scale of hundreds of thousands of acres that1002we are trying to treat. What we are practically doing is having1003to piece together small categorical exclusions because, you1004know, traditional environmental assessments just take years,1005years and years to get through. Categorical exclusions are not1006fast, but they are our most rapid solution to address the1007problem.1008    We are looking at a watershed right now that is about100910,000 acres. We would have to try and piece together several1010different categorical exclusions, trying to make sure they are1011not interdependent, interrelated, that we are not stacking1012those, that there is separation, and it really ties our hands.1013What practically happens is we do not get to treat the areas1014that need to be treated.1015    Chairman Marshall. Thank you. I will turn to Senator Bennet1016next.1017    Senator Bennet. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.1018    As we were walking in here this morning, there was I think1019a Federal court ruling some place delaying the firings of the1020Forest Service employees that we are talking about at least for102145 days. That is, I suppose, a shred of comfort, but that is1022going to also add its own levels of uncertainty. I wanted to1023ask Frank Beum and the Commissioner, if you could tell us a1024little bit specifically how these staffing shortages, the1025hiring freezes, the recent round of firings are going to affect1026fire management on the landscape today. What do we need to1027worry about in terms of just this coming summer and the work1028that has to be taken to prepare us for that and to fight the1029fires that are coming?1030    Frank, when you talk about this, could you talk a little1031bit about the importance of red cards and what that means for1032people as well?1033    Mr. Beum. Yes, Senator, thank you. As I mentioned in my1034testimony, about 75 percent of the probationary employees that1035were removed have fire qualifications. They are given on a card1036that is red. That is why it is called red card. You have a red1037card that lists your qualifications you are trained to do. Most1038of those folks that were eliminated or dismissed during their1039probationary period are field-going forestry technicians that1040typically have some red card qualifications often to do on-the-1041ground firefighting, not just support. We know primary1042firefighters with that in the position description were not1043removed, but collateral-duty firefighters, which is a backbone1044of the fire suppression effort, as well as prescribed fire,1045were removed. Those are our red card employees.1046    That is going to be a massive impact on the ability of the1047fire--I am going to use the broader Fire Service, which is all1048the Federal agencies, State agencies, and others to do fire1049suppression work this year. It is going to have a pretty big1050impact. Thank you.1051    Senator Bennet. Commissioner Houck?1052    Mr. Houck. Thank you for the question, Senator. I think,1053interestingly, the perspective I bring is someone who actually1054has the ability to, day in and day out, walk into the district1055rangers' office at the Forest Service or the BLM or the Park1056Service. The big concern that we see in Gunnison County1057currently is that there are many already approved projects.1058These are timber sales, these are habitat restoration projects,1059this is on-the-ground trail work that is mitigating fire danger1060that is approved for this upcoming year, and they do not have1061the staff on the ground to do these projects.1062    I would like to maybe step back to a point that you made in1063your introductory comments. It is the partnerships in1064communities that make a difference. For a good example, our1065trail crews are funded through State funds, through the1066Colorado Parks and Wildlife OHV funds, and that money comes to1067the Forest Service and allows them to do projects which include1068vegetation management. They cannot hire that trail crew even1069though the funding comes from a source other than the Federal1070Government. I am hearing that from the foresters in our1071district. They will not have the forestry technicians to go out1072and mark the sales that have already approved, that have been1073through a NEPA process and are part of these larger projects1074that I spoke of in my opening comments.1075    We have a lot of veterans that work on the forests in1076Gunnison County. A lot of these veterans have lost their jobs.1077One thing that I am really happy about to see in Colorado is1078how many veterans come to Colorado, connect to outdoor spaces,1079and the work that they do, the soul-satisfying work they do is1080connected to public lands. Some of them have lost their jobs as1081well.1082    When I look at what we have on slate for just this coming1083summer, I have concerns that now we are going to start1084backlogging already a place where we are struggling to keep up1085due to the lack of resources before the firings.1086    I would make one last comment that the deferred1087resignations, though, not hugely impactful right in the1088Gunnison field office, but I think of the neighboring White1089River National Forest in the route. We had three folks that1090retired who were senior level that when type one teams need to1091be deployed for fires and things of that nature, they are the1092leadership that runs the team. I would say to Frank's comments1093about red card members, a lot of the folks that have been1094eliminated recently are red card holders, and they are part of1095the firefighting process in our community.1096    Senator Bennet. I would just say to the Chairman and to the1097Chairman, the Secretary of Agriculture, who is from Texas, has1098said that she does not think that they have laid off or fired1099any firefighting personnel. You have heard today that is1100actually not the case, that Frank Beum described some of the1101people that have been laid off as the backbone of our1102firefighting efforts.1103    I think I would speak for everybody if I can for once, for1104Colorado, who is a Democrat or a Republican, we got to get1105these people back on the ground. We do not have 45 days to do1106the planning that is required. This is an emergency that we are1107facing today, and we would love your help in trying to at least1108pause this so that we can get to the other side of it.1109    By the way--I will stop here--that does nothing to deal1110with the underlying problems that have existed in our western1111States for years in terms of paying firefighters what they are1112due to begin with. We have got to find a way to work together1113to solve that problem as well.1114    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1115    Chairman Marshall. Yes, thank you, Senator Bennet. Chairman1116Boozman.1117    Chairman Boozman. Thank you very much. I want to thank you1118and Senator Bennet for the great job that you are doing with1119the Subcommittee and your staffs. You really jumped in last1120year and this year and really are making a difference.1121    As always, it is great to be with our fearless leader, Amy.1122We appreciate her and always.1123    Senator Hoeven. Are you talking about Marshall or----1124    Chairman Boozman. Well, I am not talking about you, John.1125    [Laughter.]1126    Chairman Boozman. Mr. Gordon, as your testimony mentioned,1127there are more than 44 million homes in the wildland-urban1128interface at risk of wildfire. Can you please talk about how1129the provisions of FOFA, including allowing hazardous tree1130removal within 150 feet of a utility right-of-way, can help1131address this problem and make communities safer? I have heard1132in people discussing the bill, they wonder, why are things like1133that in there? Why is that important?1134    Mr. Gordon. It is very important. A lot of the Federal1135wildfire programs are currently very fragmented and can be very1136challenging for all the individuals and communities and1137governments to navigate and access all of the wildfire1138resources, and so it is very important to have the FOFA to1139coordinate all the stakeholders and resources, support land use1140planning, adoption of building codes, supporting protection of1141critical watersheds and water delivery infrastructure. The1142various programs would also coordinate with the State and local1143agencies, including for grant assistance. We think FOFA is1144very, very important and look forward to doing anything we can1145to help you advance it.1146    Chairman Boozman. Very good. Senator Marshall mentioned the1147categorical exclusions that are part of NEPA and really ask1148about increased categorical exclusions, how they effectively1149help manage our Nation's forests. Does anybody disagree with1150that on the panel? Go ahead.1151    Mr. Houck. Yes, thank you, Senator. I would not say I would1152disagree, but in doing my research for the presentation today1153and in speaking with those at the agency, categorical1154exclusions are--currently, north of 80 percent of most projects1155are excluded from--categorical exclusions are used and using1156those to not have to go through the full NEPA process. You1157know, from someone on the ground and at a local level, the1158concern is that moving further and further away for these1159larger projects from that community involvement, you start to1160lose the social engagement and the social license from the1161communities most directly impacted and finding a way to make1162sure that categorical exclusions are handled in a way that is1163beneficial but also--and they are a great tool, but I am1164concerned about the larger projects being--CEs being used to1165sidestep some of the good public participation that happens1166through a full NEPA process.1167    Chairman Boozman. Are you concerned about the process being1168so cumbersome, though, that for some of these bigger projects,1169it is almost impossible to get done just because of the1170bureaucracy involved and the abilities to play the system in a1171different way?1172    Mr. Houck. Senator, thank you for that. I would respond1173that, you know, my experience in a rural western public lands1174county, that participation on the front end has been robust1175enough that we have seen less litigation. We have seen less1176kind of playing the system or gaming the system, sir, as maybe1177you referred to it. I want to acknowledge that I think that is1178a challenge to overcome. I think my position, and as you will1179see in my written comments that are much more in depth, the1180concern would be that by weakening that social license with1181communities, you will actually potentially see more litigation1182and more things that hamstring these projects in the long run1183by not having that more robust public input up front that NEPA1184often affords. At least for my community, I have noticed, it1185has been very beneficial.1186    Chairman Boozman. Yes, one of the things that I have1187noticed, and I think anybody that has been around this at all,1188is how different forests are managed throughout the country.1189You know, it is great that you have got, you know, a good1190experience and working hard and, you know, everybody kind of1191gets along. That is certainly not the case every place, you1192know, so--thank you, Mr. Chairman.1193    Chairman Marshall. All right. Thank you, Chairman. Senator1194Klobuchar.1195    Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank1196you, Senator Bennet, for this great and timely hearing. I wish1197we did not have to focus on it because I wish we did not have1198this many fires. We are here, and we need to do everything we1199can. I look at Senator Schiff there with what he and his1200constituents went through with the fires in California, what we1201have seen in Colorado. We know that these fires pose the1202greatest threat in the West, but it is also important to know1203that these fires have not spared other parts of the country.1204    I remember flying in a helicopter over the forests of1205northern Minnesota and seeing the areas burn 90,000 acres, the1206Pagami Fire, the largest Minnesota wildfire in nearly a1207century. Wildfires, including the Greenwood Fire once again1208burned across northern Minnesota. Of course, we, like so many1209of the Northern States, have our people get the air from Canada1210from those horrendous fires that burned for months and months1211and months.1212    Recent investments by Congress have led to the Forest1213Service that have been really important, the Collaborative1214Wildfire Risk Reduction Program funding two projects in the1215Superior National Forest to reduce hazardous fuels and create1216strategic fuel breaks, which I am sure you agree it is just the1217kind of thing we need to be doing. Unfortunately, these1218projects and others carried out by the Forest Service and its1219partners have been disrupted due to the widespread funding1220freeze. I look forward to hearing from all of you today on1221this, but also on the Fix Our Forests Act and ways we should1222strengthen the bill to ensure that wildfire responses are1223directed to the areas most in need, changes to the review1224process are targeted and allow for community input--Senator1225Bennet mentioned this--and that the Forest Service has the1226necessary funding and personnel to perform the additional and1227important wildfire mitigation.1228    My first question would be of you, Mr. Houck. Can you1229discuss the importance of Federal funding to accomplish more1230restoration work, and how does this assistance help counties1231and other local units carry out wildfire mitigation?1232    Mr. Houck. Thank you, Senator, and thank you for the1233question. Indeed, as I said in my opening comments, some of the1234lack of funding and lack of programs--the programs that are1235being funded are being well utilized, but there is still a1236shortage of funding, and there is still a shortage of resources1237and capacity on the ground. Many communities such as mine have1238had the ability to get projects into the pipeline. Funding and1239workforce tend to be the issues that get in the way of those.1240    You know, the Good Neighbor Authority, I am very happy to1241see that. I know you have been a long-time champion of the Good1242Neighbor Authority----1243    Senator Klobuchar. Exactly.1244    Mr. Houck [continuing]. and thank you.1245    Senator Klobuchar. You are welcome.1246    Mr. Houck. Section 111----1247    Senator Klobuchar. It has like the best name of any bill.1248    [Laughter.]1249    Mr. Houck. It is great to see that in--and I think that is1250very positive for that. It reinstates and restates with the1251EXPLORE Act covered, which is counties and tribes have the1252ability to use the Good Neighbor Authority to its best extent.1253I would also offer that funding of those kind of programs and1254expansion of those programs within communities then also allows1255us--and I think the insurance businesses have seen this--when1256we can enact higher levels of local regulation around building1257and wildfire protections, we are levering these different1258inputs in our community for better things that our citizens can1259take advantage of, and then being able to create fire-wise1260communities, work in the WUI, and make sure that that work is1261done quickly and efficiently.1262    Senator Klobuchar. Mr. Beum, I have long supported1263permitting reform as long as it is done in the right way.1264Currently, many Forest Service projects are carried out using1265expedited permitting authorities, and any additional1266flexibilities, I would like to see a focus on those facing1267wildfire risk. Are there targeted improvements to the1268permitting process this Committee should consider that could1269lead to more active forest management?1270    Mr. Beum. Well, what I would say is that we have been1271working--when I was still working, we worked closely with Fish1272and Wildlife Service on ESA compliance and other issues with1273historic preservation that we really do need to find ways to be1274more proactive, quicker in that work, and there are some1275efficiencies I believe we can find. I know the agency was1276working hard on that, and we could certainly do more with that.1277    Senator Klobuchar. During your tenure as Regional Forester1278of the Rocky Mountain region, did you feel like the Forest1279Service having fewer staff and resources would help it1280accomplish more work? I know it is a really tough question.1281    Mr. Beum. Yes, thanks for the softball. No, ma'am.1282    [Laughter.]1283    Mr. Beum. What I would say additionally is that, if I were1284chief for a day, I would flip the organization chart upside1285down and put the districts at the top of our organization. That1286is where the work is done. That is where we meet people, and1287these cuts that we have been talking about are just at the1288wrong place. They are cutting people on the ground that get the1289work done that we need to have done.1290    Senator Klobuchar. I get it. If you could look at it, you1291know, as a manager, you would make them--and if you wanted to1292make some changes, you would do them in a different way than is1293being done now?1294    Mr. Beum. Certainly would, yes.1295    Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Thank you.1296    Mr. Beum. Thank you.1297    Chairman Marshall. Thank you, Senator Klobuchar. Senator1298Hoeven.1299    Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to thank1300all the witnesses for being here.1301    Mr. Weiner, in North Dakota, we have national grasslands.1302We have national grasslands both in the Western part of the1303State, but also in the Southeast part of the State as well, and1304we do a lot of grazing out there. Talk to me a little bit about1305your thoughts in regard to the dual benefits that livestock1306grazing can have, both in terms of promoting more fire-1307resistant, healthy landscapes, and of course, at the same time,1308really helping our ranchers.1309    Mr. Weiner. Yes, thank for the question, Senator. I1310appreciate that. I think one great point that this brings up is1311that while the bill is called the Fix Our Forests Act, this is1312really about all types of landscapes impacted by fire. We think1313about chaparral landscapes that were impacted in the Los1314Angeles fires recently, and absolutely grazing landscapes like1315you have in North Dakota. One of the best tools that we have is1316grazing. We are really thrilled that the Fix Our Forests Act1317includes provisions to streamline authorities and approvals for1318targeted grazing projects, allowing cattlemen access to public1319lands for grazing in fire-prone areas.1320    I think the other piece of this is the value of the1321Fireshed Center in helping States like North Dakota that have1322emergent wildfire risk, understand what their risk profile is1323on the ground, and act accordingly, right? I think a lot of the1324great work that has been done in the wildfire technology space1325in terms of understanding what is happening on the ground is1326being done at the State and local level with very well-1327resourced States and local governments. Other smaller States1328across the West are going to have a lot of catching up to do,1329and we think this center is going to be really helpful in1330helping----1331    Senator Hoeven. Yes. I mean, when these wildfires get going1332in the grasslands, I mean, we have had them burn down some1333small towns, last year, killed several people. It is very1334serious, and we have to be able to address them. In a lot of1335cases, you know, we have the ranchers out there themselves,1336along with volunteer fire departments trying to help, you know,1337contain these fires. Of course, the State does a lot too with,1338you know, helicopters and fire suppression and so forth.1339    Wildfire seasons have turned into wildfire years, and costs1340have increased 82 percent to address it over the past decade.1341Talk a little bit about, you know, in this legislation, you1342know, what can you do in terms of cost savings to really change1343that?1344    Mr. Weiner. Yes. Well, I think that, first of all, the fact1345that we spend so much time with the permitting and planning1346side would be a problem at the Forest Service, even if it was1347not going through the crisis that it is going through right1348now.1349    Senator Hoeven. Talk specifically about permitting, how it1350is really going to work. You know, President Trump issued1351emergency action right now. How are you going to get permitting1352improved so it really works and is timely?1353    Mr. Weiner. Yes----1354    Senator Hoeven. Does this bill do it? How does it do it?1355    Mr. Weiner. I think this bill does do that. I think it does1356that through bringing a process to the emergency authority that1357is relevant to what President Trump announced and that Governor1358Newsom in California announced very recently. Bring----1359    Senator Hoeven. Okay. There, good point. Does that mean you1360can get the bipartisan--you had President Trump do it, and you1361have also had Governor Newsom do it.1362    Mr. Weiner. Yes.1363    Senator Hoeven. That really speaks to we ought to be able1364to pass this thing on a bipartisan basis and get this done,1365right, an actual solution in place, right?1366    Mr. Weiner. Yes, Senator.1367    Senator Hoeven. Okay.1368    Mr. Weiner. The folks who are responsible for managing risk1369on landscapes, the executives out there are moving in this1370direction in a bipartisan basis, and Congress should help put a1371process in place to make sure that it meets the desired goals.1372    Senator Hoeven. Yes, thanks.1373    Mr. Gordon, I want to ask you about this interface where we1374have the urban areas encroaching on these forests, right? That1375is happening all the time. You know, we just saw the dramatic,1376horrible consequences in California of that, you know,1377confluence of urban areas, you know, and these forests. Speak1378to what this bill does to really address that, a critically1379important and life safety issue.1380    Mr. Gordon. Yes, it is a growing issue, and to the extent1381that we are going to continue to build in these risky areas,1382and now a majority of new homes are being built in areas with1383wildfire risk, we have to do more wildfire safety,1384preparedness, and mitigation. This bill makes the upfront1385investments that we need to do to save people, to make it more1386affordable long term. It includes things like encouraging1387hardening existing homes with wildfire-resistant materials,1388removing hazardous fuels, vegetation management. You talked1389about grazing, so important to reduce those fuel loads,1390programs to better coordinate the various Federal programs and1391Federal and State services. This bill is really important to1392make the upfront investments to make those buildings insurable1393and affordable long term.1394    Senator Hoeven. Right on and very timely, so thanks to you,1395Mr. Chairman and the Ranking Member, for this hearing. Thanks1396to the witnesses.1397    Chairman Marshall. Thanks, Senator Hoeven. Senator Lujan is1398next.1399    Senator Lujan. Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much. I very1400much appreciate this hearing and to all the panelists who are1401here today.1402    Far too many communities in New Mexico and States across1403the country are terrified about fire season, and it is only1404getting longer. In 2022 the Hermits Peak/Calf Canyon Fire in1405New Mexico, which was started by the U.S. Forest Service as a1406controlled burn, largest fire in the State's history, billion1407dollars of damages, cost New Mexicans their livelihoods. I was1408told at the time that prescribed burns do not get out of1409control, very few, less than a 10th of a percent.1410    About three months later, we had a second one in New1411Mexico, burnt another community up, all because folks did not1412want to use the technology that was available, but just wanted1413to use their hands and their eyes and see if it was warm or1414not. We all know what happens when a stump catches on fire and1415it goes down deep. It stays smoldering. It does not get put1416out, and all it takes is a little bit of a breeze for it to1417kick up.1418    I am proud to have successfully led the New Mexico1419delegation in securing funding in a specific act because of the1420liability of the Federal Government. I am still not happy at1421the pace that funding is flowing to people back home. That is a1422whole other conversation that we need to have. Once the fires1423do start, we have to have the people power and wildfire1424modeling capacity to contain and extinguish the flames.1425    Mr. Weiner, thank you for calling attention to the1426bipartisan Regional Leadership and Wildland Fire Research Act1427that I and Senators Sullivan and Sheehy and Padilla worked on1428together, and thank you for your work in assisting us to get1429this done. Can you speak to the importance of developing next-1430generation fire and vegetation models to support wildland fire1431management and rehabilitation?1432    Mr. Weiner. Absolutely. Thank you, Senator, and thank you1433for your work on that legislation. We think that that piece of1434legislation is crucial on the wildfire science side of this1435conversation, and we should think about how to make sure it is1436coordinating effectively with the Fireshed Center in this bill.1437    You know, as you mentioned, wildfire behavior is changing1438rapidly. We are seeing facts on the ground change as the fires1439are burning, and we have the tools with advanced modeling to1440get a handle on how things are likely to play out and act1441accordingly. I think that your legislation and the Fireshed1442Center in particular can help enable that.1443    I think it is important to also recognize a lot of the1444cutting-edge work happening here is happening in the private1445sector, and they do not have a partner in the Federal1446Government to work on these issues effectively with right now.1447I think we do need to think about how we can enable the1448innovation happening in the private sector on advanced modeling1449and make sure that we put those tools in the hands of1450decisionmakers at every level as quickly as possible.1451    Senator Lujan. I appreciate that. I am reminded that, as a1452country, we spend billions of dollars improving our1453understanding of hurricanes and tornadoes. It might surprise a1454lot of people, but in New Mexico, we do not have a lot of1455hurricanes.1456    [Laughter.]1457    Senator Lujan. We do not invest at the same level for1458catastrophic fires. I do not understand this. This is a part of1459America that has just been left out.1460    Mr. Weiner. Yes.1461    Senator Lujan. Well, now there are three western Senators1462on this Committee, and I do not believe that is going to happen1463anymore.1464    Mr. Weiner, why is it important that this modeling and1465technology is developed and targeted for specific regions of1466the country?1467    Mr. Weiner. Yes, I think first to your point on hurricanes,1468you know, historically, hurricanes have been a bigger driver of1469damage in the United States, and so catastrophic fire, as we1470recognize it now, has only been around for a couple decades,1471and our systems have been slow to respond. A single hurricane1472hunter costs more than a decade of wildfire science research at1473the Federal level, so we definitely need to catch up in that1474space.1475    Senator Lujan. I appreciate that.1476    Mr. Weiner. And----1477    Senator Lujan. Go ahead.1478    Mr. Weiner. I was just going to say, as regards to1479different landscapes, I think it is really crucial that we have1480a regional approach so that we can look at the difference in1481fire risk in places like Hawaii, in the Great Plains where1482there is a very different risk, in chaparral-based landscapes1483in the Southwest, and comparing that to forested landscapes,1484all of which have different risk profiles, different things to1485need to look out for and understand if you are a manager. We1486think it is critical that we take a regional approach to that.1487    Senator Lujan. I appreciate that. Well, while I enjoy both1488beef and lamb, I will just remind my friends that while cattle1489graze, sheep mow----1490    Mr. Weiner. Yes.1491    Senator Lujan [continuing].--so we may need some more of1492them on these grasslands as well.1493    Mr. Weiner. Oh, sheep are a big part of it. We are1494supportive of them.1495    Senator Lujan. Well----1496    Mr. Weiner. I should have said that earlier.1497    Senator Lujan [continuing].--we should talk about that.1498Well, I am not going to get into the pricing of the meat.1499    [Laughter.]1500    Senator Lujan. I appreciate the question that Senator1501Bennet asked about staffing. You answered that question. It is1502a problem. I had a constituent from the Southwestern part of1503New Mexico give me a holler because she was worried that her1504husband, who is a wildland firefighter, there was a freeze of1505hiring, and then people that he worked with were terminated.1506She said, if a fire happens, is he going to come home or not? I1507think we need to be thinking about that aspect of this.1508    I would ask my Republican colleagues, look, any of you that1509hunt or fish, invite President Trump out west. Take him hunting1510and fishing so he can go into these wooded areas and take a1511look at them. I think we need to get a good understanding of1512the Western part of America so that way we can be working on1513this stuff. This is common sense. It is not Democrat or1514Republican. This is about the United States. The Western1515members have been working closely together. I hope that, you1516know, those of us that do not know each other well yet, I hope1517to get to know you. We will invite you out. I will take you1518fishing, I will take you hunting, but you have to be1519comfortable hunting with the other person I mentioned, so that1520is up to you all.1521    [Laughter.]1522    Senator Lujan. There are some other areas as well in1523recovery, Mr. Chairman, I hope we can talk to at a later time.1524I will submit them into the record.1525    Now that we have had these devastating fires, you know, I1526have been surprised that only New Mexico and Idaho have the1527ability to be able to produce the seedlings necessary for1528recovery here. We need to be looking at what we can be doing in1529this space so that way we are preventing, we have better tools1530to fight when this happens, but then we also look at recovery.1531I hope that we can all talk about that.1532    Then the last thing I will say is, do not forget about the1533flooding that happens for five, six, ten years after a fire1534hits in the West because it is equally devastating. We need to1535make sure that all the rules are updating themselves or we can1536help update them so that people are not getting hurt because of1537that stuff. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1538    Chairman Marshall. Thanks, Senator Lujan. I will accept1539your invitation as long as it is flyfishing on a stream.1540    Senator Lujan. Done.1541    Chairman Marshall. Okay. I got to take my dad fishing this1542Sunday in the Flint Hills for the first time this spring, so it1543is always a great signal that spring is on the way. You bet.1544    Chairman Marshall. Senator Justice, thanks for your1545patience. You are recognized.1546    Senator Justice. I am new to the game in lots of ways--1547thank you, sir--but I have got a lot of white hair, and I have1548been around a lot, and I can tell you--and absolutely, please,1549let me accept the invitation as well because there is nobody in1550here, nobody that has been in the woods or on the waters more1551than I, nobody. I get it. I truly get it.1552    The thing that is absolutely amazing to me is, I would just1553say, simply just this, whether it be all of our unbelievable1554farmlands and the contribution of our small family farms, or1555whether it be our unbelievable forest that we are absolutely1556seeing right now that we got a real problem, and America needs1557to react. That is all there is to it. I mean, it is just as1558simple as just that.1559    We got all the smarts in the world here to figure it out as1560to what to do, but we just will not react. We just think it is1561going to be okay. Well, it is not going to be okay. I mean,1562these fires absolutely are killing our--and I just wrote down1563just a couple of points here--our air, our waters, our soil,1564our nutrients, absolutely our wildlife, and more than anything,1565our soul, our soul. Then for those of us that have been on a1566stream with a fly rod in your hand or seen the absolutely1567majesty of all the stuff of wildlife all around us we are1568killing our soul, America. That is all there is to it. We have1569got to wake up. We have got to react. Not only do we have to1570react, but we got to react within days almost. That is all1571there is to it when it really boils down to it.1572    Here is a solution, you know, that I can provide to you1573very quickly, you know, from the standpoint of West Virginia.1574You know, we have lost all of our cabinetry, and we have lost1575all of our furniture business, and we lost it to Vietnam and1576China and Mexico. It is gone. Well, absolutely, how do we get1577it back?1578    I mean, think about this. In West Virginia, we cut 1/3 of1579our growth. We do not manage our forests in West Virginia any1580better than the problems in the West. We got to do something.1581You know, with all that being said, the canopy, we cut 1/3 of1582our growth. Think about this just a second. What if we created1583some form of funding, whatever it may be, and said, I will tell1584you what we are going to do, we are going to rate our States.1585In this situation, West Virginia would rate really well, but we1586are going to rate our contribution. Do you know that when we1587take and cut a tree and it turns into this right here, the1588carbon is frozen in this forever. The carbon does not go into1589the atmosphere, but if it falls down on the ground because we1590are not cutting but 1/3 of our growth, and we are not managing1591our forests, and we get any kind of level of forest fire, and1592in West Virginia, we get 800 a year. They are not bad, but 8001593a year.1594    What happens to this carbon when the fire goes through?1595Poof, right back into the atmosphere. We all absolutely, our1596hair on fire about carbon in the atmosphere. Why don't we do1597something about it? Why don't we say, I will tell you what we1598are going to do, we are going to create some kind of management1599funding or whatever, and we are going to apply that toward1600labor back in States and rate it and scale it and absolutely,1601then bring our absolute furniture and cabinetry, you know,1602manufacturing back to the back to us instead of it being in1603another country.1604    There are so many things we can be doing. The intelligence1605is all right here. We need to do it on a bipartisan, you know,1606matter. Absolutely, without any question, we can do it, and we1607can do it right now, absolutely. The question is, will America1608react?1609    With that being said, I would say I stand ready to work1610with anybody, anybody. I stand ready to accept that invitation1611too. You will see that you will see that I am a hunter, I am a1612fisherman, I am a person that loves the outdoors, and I am a1613person that wants to absolutely preserve our soul. If we do not1614watch out, what we are doing, what we are doing right now is1615ludicrous. Let's figure a way to figure this out, and we need1616to do it right now.1617    Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.1618    Chairman Marshall. Thank you, Senator Justice.1619    Now it looks like we have a contest to see who the second-1620best fisherman in the Senate is.1621    [Laughter.]1622    Chairman Marshall. Senator Schiff, you are next.1623    Senator Schiff. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to1624the witnesses for being here.1625    Matt, I am sorry I missed the chance to introduce you1626earlier. Matt and I have known each other a long time when he1627served as the Executive Director of the California Democratic1628Congressional Delegation and advised our Chair Zoe Lofgren,1629Speaker Pelosi, as well as 42 Democratic Members of the House1630on California policy. I appreciate how you brought that1631expertise to bear in trying to tackle this very difficult1632problem.1633    We are seeing in California what Americans are seeing all1634over the country, that wildfires are now characterized by a1635longer fire season, by more massive size, by more acres burned1636every year. The loss of life in Altadena and the Palisades, the1637loss of homes and businesses was just devastating. With the1638100-mile-an-hour winds, it was just an irresistible force to be1639reckoned with.1640    I appreciate all of your efforts to try to improve our1641forest management so that we can reduce the chances of these1642fires and the work that is being done on a bipartisan basis by1643my colleague, Scott Peters from California, and Congressman1644Westerman.1645    I have concerns about the bill, which I think many1646Democrats in the House shared when this bill came before the1647House, that parts of the bill seem more focused on timber1648harvesting than they do on wildfire mitigation. They are not1649concerns that cannot be overcome. There are, I think, good-1650faith negotiations going on to try to make changes to the bill1651that would, I think, potentially, dramatically expand support1652for the bill, and I am hoping that we can get to yes on those1653changes.1654    One of the reasons I think there is skepticism about the1655priority in the bill being more on wildfire and less on timber1656or vice versa is the issue that my colleague, Senator Bennet,1657was raising, and that is that so many of the actions we are1658taking right now are completely counterproductive, that have1659nothing to do with the need to change law, but they involve the1660laying off of firefighters, the hiring freeze on other1661firefighters, the termination of 3,400 employees at the Forest1662Service, the funding freeze affecting the halt of hazardous1663fuels reduction. All of this is moving us in the wrong1664direction, and so it is hard to make the case for the urgency1665of legislation when we are taking steps that are nonlegislative1666that are moving us in the wrong direction. I hope that we can1667both restore these employees in this workforce and this1668important work, and at the same time, make improvements to the1669bill and get this moving.1670    I would like, if I could--I received a letter from the1671Lomakatsi Project, which I request unanimous consent to be1672entered in the record.1673    [The letters can be found on page 125-126 in the appendix.]1674    Senator Schiff. I thank you.1675    This project is a forestry and workforce development1676organization in Oregon and California. Their work has resulted1677in thousands of acres of hazardous fuels reduction, millions of1678feet of timber sent to mills, billions of dollars saved in1679avoided property damage and firefighting costs, and freezing1680the funds has really adversely impacted their efforts.1681    The question I would like to ask, and I will throw it open1682to the panel, is, you know, first, how do we make sure that we1683are not making the problem worse with some of the actions we1684are seeing now? Second, how can we address some of the1685legitimate concerns that have been raised in the bill that some1686of the provisions go beyond what would be necessary for1687wildfire prevention and risk without adequate public input,1688taking actions that really could hurt the very forests we are1689trying to save? If you could comment on those efforts to1690negotiate some of those difficulties, and I yield to the panel.1691    Chairman Marshall. Well, let's just be brief here. We are1692at five minutes, so maybe one minute for an answer here.1693    Mr. Weiner. I can quickly speak to the last question,1694Senator, and thank you for the introduction. I found that when1695we engaged in the process with Chairman Westerman and Scott1696Peters to a lot of raised eyebrows from a lot of the1697conservation community, what we found was an incredibly1698productive process and a good-faith process in terms of working1699to identify some of those challenges you raised.1700    I think we are really heartened that there is a bipartisan1701group of Senators working to look at a Senate companion bill1702right now, but I think the bottom line for us is we think that1703it can continue to be improved in the Senate, and I think that1704we have good-faith partners in the House to get that done and1705make sure that this bill does what it says it will do.1706    Senator Schiff. I thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We1707are obviously coordinating with my colleague, Senator Padilla,1708to try to be a constructive part of those negotiations. Thank1709you, and I yield back.1710    Chairman Marshall. Thank you, Senator Schiff.1711    Senator Warnock, you are next.1712    Senator Warnock. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.1713    Many of my colleagues here today represent States that are1714at high risk for large-scale wildfires. Wildfires are not1715limited to the West. Atlanta is known as the city in the forest1716because of the city's dense tree canopy, and about 2/3 of1717Georgia is covered with forests, putting it at risk for1718wildfires. In fact, the National Interagency Fire Center1719predicts Georgia and much of the Southeast will be at above-1720average risk for wildfires over the next couple of months. In1721the last week alone, Georgia has seen over 4,000 acres burn,1722and neighboring South Carolina's Governor declared a state of1723emergency due to wildfires.1724    Mr. Beum, what are some of the contributing factors that1725are increasing Georgia's wildfire risk?1726    Mr. Beum. Thank you for the question, Senator. You know,1727our weather patterns are certainly contributing to the wildfire1728risk. What we are seeing right now in the Carolinas, what we1729saw in Georgia, we saw at Gatlinburg, there is a number of1730things that were really, quite frankly, shocking. I worked in1731the South for a number of years and did not anticipate those1732type of fires happening in the South, and they do. Climate1733change is probably a factor. There are a number of factors to1734that, in addition, the lengthening of the season. Again, we do1735not really refer to fire seasons anymore; it is a fire year.1736    Senator Warnock. Right. I think climate change is clearly a1737contributing factor not only to wildfires. I can tell you1738something else that climate change is clearly causing is more1739frequent, larger, and stronger hurricanes. Last fall, Hurricane1740Helene, ravaged the Southeast, including Georgia. I remember1741spending time on the ground with folks who had lost everything.1742Helene paved a path of destruction all the way from the bottom1743of the State to the top, taking down 8.9 million acres of1744timber with it.1745    Mr. Beum, can you describe the increased fire risk of1746fallen trees from stronger storms create?1747    Mr. Beum. Yes, Senator, thank you for the question. Anytime1748we have trees falling in the forest like that, they will start1749to decay, and you get a fire through there, and they will1750contribute to the intensity of that fire. In the South, that1751might take a year for those trees to dry out and be a large1752woody fuel for a fire, but regardless, that is a significant1753increased fire risk in the State because of hurricanes.1754    Senator Warnock. Given that risk, how important is swift1755cleanup?1756    Mr. Beum. Very important, sir.1757    Senator Warnock. I ask that question because at this time1758of increased wildfire risk across the Southeast, the Trump1759Administration is firing the very workers who are responsible1760for mitigating that risk through storm cleanup and proper1761forest management. Will these firings help or hurt Georgia's1762ability to mitigate wildfire risk?1763    Mr. Beum. As I stated earlier, sir, they will absolutely1764hurt the ability for Georgia to mitigate that fire risk.1765    Senator Warnock. I agree, and I think we need legislation1766to require our Federal agencies take on more responsibility to1767address wildfires. If Congress does not provide them with1768proper resources and adequate staffing, we are not setting them1769up for success. I look forward to working with my colleagues to1770address these shortfalls as we work toward a comprehensive1771wildfire strategy bill. Thank you so much.1772    Mr. Beum. Thank you, sir. I would add just one piece, that1773through the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law and the Inflation1774Reduction Act that was passed previous Congresses, infusion to1775the Forest Service was generational money to address wildfire1776mitigation. Even so, $5 billion, north of $5 billion, that is a1777down payment in what is really needed. I do not even know what1778the figure might be, $20 billion, $30 billion.1779    Senator Warnock. It is an important point, especially since1780there are efforts right now in Congress to take that back.1781    Mr. Beum. Yes, sir.1782    Senator Warnock. Thank you so much.1783    Mr. Beum. Thank you.1784    Chairman Marshall. Thank you, Senator Warnock. Senator1785Booker.1786    Senator Booker. The grace and generosity of our Chairman1787and our Ranking Member for letting a guy that is not on this1788Subcommittee come in. What a lot of folks in this room do not1789know is that New Jersey is a forest State. Yes, I am glad you1790all know that. Forty percent of my State is covered by forest,1791and last year, we had some horrible, horrible forest fires. I1792know a lot of attention is to the West of Jersey, but allow my1793Bon Jovi and Bruce Springsteen Jersey pride to come out here1794and come before you all right now.1795    What my friend and brother Warnock were talking about,1796these catastrophic wildfires are being caused by climate1797change. This is because climate change has led to higher1798temperatures, extended droughts, earlier snowmelt, which create1799higher, drier conditions for longer fire seasons, which we are1800all seeing, and even again, worse conditions in New Jersey.1801    We know that to combat climate change, one of the things we1802need to do is actually preserve our existing forests. I have1803been working with our current Secretary of Agriculture trying1804to continue a lot of our tree planting efforts, but especially1805our old growth forests, we just need to get more trees in the1806ground. We also need to engage in large-scale efforts to reduce1807the amount of hazardous fuel that has accumulated into our1808forests, as many people have testified today. Really the1809massively scaling up of the amount of prescribed burns that we1810are doing, I think that is important.1811    Unfortunately, we have seen with an executive order by the1812President, as well as this version of the Fix Our Forests Act,1813which passed the House, would do the opposite of this, and are1814instead focused on cutting down our forests, not planting more.1815In order to fix this act, which I think it is important, as1816everybody said, how we work in a bipartisan way, I believe1817there is some changes that we need to make, and I want to1818mention a few.1819    In section 121 of the bill, this would severely restrict1820judicial reviews of agency actions. These provisions need to be1821deleted in their entirety in my opinion. Right now, we are1822dealing with an administration that will take any action, legal1823or not that I am seeing, that will only check against those1824illegal actions in the judiciary, and we need to make sure we1825preserve that ability.1826    The second area that I wanted to point out in this hearing1827was in section 121 which shortened the statute limitations from1828six years to 120 days. I believe some shortening may be1829appropriate but do not believe it should be reduced to less1830than one year. We should not limit who has standing to bring1831these challenges.1832    Finally, in section 106 of the bill, this would shift when1833environmental reviews happen from prior to agency actions to1834after those actions have already happened, essentially making1835the reviews meaningless. This bill is already watering down the1836NEPA and ESA reviews that will happen, but it is critical that1837those reviews continue to happen prior to projects commencing.1838    A final concern with the bill that I will mention and1839really lead into a question is the proposed increase in1840categorical exclusions up to 10,000 acres. Mr. Houck, if you do1841not mind because you have the best haircut of everybody up1842there, can you please talk about what the impact would be on1843both the environmental reviews and community participation of1844categorical exclusions were increased from 3,000 acres all the1845way up to 10,000 acres?1846    Mr. Houck. Yes, Senator, thank you for the question. My1847experience in Gunnison County, and I think it would probably be1848applicable to maybe the Pine Barrens as much as the Rocky1849Mountain West, but the idea that having the communities that1850are closest to this involved in that process are important. My1851concern with the watering down or increasing the threshold for1852these categorical exclusions would be that it does not allow1853the more robust issues to be discussed in a way where there is1854upfront input from local government, from industry, and also1855from other folks in communities that are invested. Then on the1856back end, what they are going to do is litigate in order to1857slow things down. Sometimes the idea of going slow to go fast1858is there.1859    I agree that there is opportunities for reform. I think1860that this bill has the seeds of that. When I look at the1861Wildfire Commission report, it seems to be that would be kind1862of a good north star to find some direction about how to mold1863and shape some of the----1864    Senator Booker. Answer me this, and if you answer it as1865well as that first question, I am going to do a Sense of the1866Senate Resolution that you can become an honorary New Jerseyan.1867Can you please just sort of expand on your written testimony,1868which I thought was really appointed, that NEPA and ESA have1869not been a problem in developing and implementing vegetation1870management projects, and say more about what the real causes of1871the delay in project implementation are in your view? Because I1872believe we need to cut bureaucracy and get things done, but it1873seems like you were saying that the delay in project1874implementation is not the NEPA and ESA.1875    Mr. Houck. What I have experienced in Gunnison County and1876in western Colorado is often it is the contracting, the time it1877takes the contracting and getting the resources on the ground1878after the environmental analysis has been done. That has been1879more of an impediment to getting good work done on the ground1880in my neck of the woods than the actual NEPA.1881    Senator Booker. Free tolls on the Jersey Turnpike. Thank1882you very much, sir.1883    Chairman Marshall. Is that for everybody, Senator Booker?1884    Senator Booker. No, sir. No, sir.1885    Chairman Marshall. Okay.1886    [Laughter.]1887    Senator Booker. Bennet must pay.1888    Chairman Marshall. There you go. Thank you so much.1889    Senator Bennet, any closing remarks?1890    Senator Bennet. No, I just want to thank you, Mr. Chairman.1891It has been an excellent hearing. Chair, I know you had a1892million places to be. Thank you. Critically important our1893country and grateful. To the witnesses, thank you all. It was a1894pleasure to hear the depth of your knowledge, the depth of your1895commitment. I think there is a broad view that we can move1896forward on here. I look forward to working with you, Chairman.1897    Chairman Marshall. Well, thank you, Senator Bennet.1898    A big thank you to our witnesses again. I know that this1899was short notice. You gave up personal time. You put this1900together. Your statements will be reviewed over and your1901questions as well. The record will be open for five business1902days.1903    I want to say a big thanks to our staff members too, both1904the Ranking Member's and my personal staff. The Committee1905Members on both sides of the aisle did an incredible job of1906putting this together, made it a very, very, very productive1907meeting as well. I think this says a lot, the House Speaker1908Johnson saying this is a priority to get it across the finish1909line this early in a Congress. Appreciate the Chairman and1910Ranking Member of the larger Committee saying this is a1911priority to have a hearing as well.1912    What we do not have much up here is oxygen. There is just a1913finite amount of issues we can get across the finish line. I do1914think this is something we can get across the finish line, and1915look forward to working with the Ranking Member and his team as1916well.1917    Today's hearing is now adjourned. Thank you.1918    [Whereupon, at 12:48 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]19191920=======================================================================19211922                            A P P E N D I X19231924                             March 6, 202519251926=======================================================================19271928[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]19291930=======================================================================19311932                   DOCUMENTS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD19331934                             March 6, 202519351936=======================================================================19371938[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]19391940=======================================================================19411942                         QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS19431944                             March 6, 202519451946=======================================================================19471948[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]19491950                                 [all]