Hearings to examine the nomination of William Briggs, of Texas, to be Deputy Administrator, and Casey Mulligan, of Illinois, to be Chief Counsel for Advocacy, both of the Small Business Administration.
Meeting•Senate Small Business and Entrepreneurship•Mar 12, 2025 · 2:30 PM
Summary
Senate Small Business and Entrepreneurship held a meeting on Mar 12, 2025 at 2:30 PM in Russell Senate Office Building, Room 428A.
Record
The meeting has its transcript on the record.
Transcript
The transcript runs to 1,337 lines and 72,468 characters, as the Government Publishing Office printed it.
1[Senate Hearing 119-50]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34 S. Hrg. 119-5056 NOMINATIONS OF WILLIAM BRIGGS TO BE7 DEPUTY ADMINISTRATOR OF THE SMALL8 BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION AND DR.9 CASEY MULLIGAN TO BE CHIEF COUNSEL10 FOR ADVOCACY AT THE SMALL11 BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION1213=======================================================================1415 HEARING1617 BEFORE THE1819 COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS20 AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP2122 OF THE2324 UNITED STATES SENATE2526 ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2728 FIRST SESSION2930 __________3132 MARCH 12, 20253334 __________3536 Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business and37 Entrepreneurship3839[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]4041 Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov4243 __________4445 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE4660-007 WASHINGTON : 20254748-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------4950 COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP51 ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS5253 ----------5455 JONI ERNST, Iowa, Chair56 EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts, Ranking Member57JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho MARIA CANTWELL, Washington58RAND PAUL, Kentucky JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire59TIM SCOTT, South Carolina CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey60TODD YOUNG, Indiana CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware61JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii62TED BUDD, North Carolina JACKY ROSEN, Nevada63JOHN R. CURTIS, Utah JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado64JAMES C. JUSTICE, West Virginia ADAM B. SCHIFF, California65JOHN HUSTED, Ohio66 Meredith West, Republican Staff Director67 Sean Moore, Democratic Staff Director6869 C O N T E N T S7071 ----------7273 MARCH 12, 20257475 WITNESS PREPARED STATEMENTS7677 Page78Mr. William Briggs of Texas...................................... 879Dr. Casey Mulligan of Illinois................................... 128081 ADDITIONAL LETTERS/STATEMENTS FOR THE RECORD8283Briggs Support Letters84 American Fintech Council..................................... 2885 Association of Women's Business Centers...................... 3086 Economic and Community Development Institute................. 3187 Independent Bankers Association of Texas..................... 3288 Independent Community Bankers of America..................... 3389 National Association of Government Guaranteed Lenders........ 3490 National Restaurant Association.............................. 3591 National Small Business Association.......................... 3792 Small Business Investor Alliance............................. 3993 Small Business Multi-Cloud Coalition......................... 4094 Texas Association of Business................................ 4295 Texas Venture Alliance....................................... 4396 U.S. Black Chambers, Inc..................................... 4497 Visiting Angels.............................................. 4598Mulligan Support Letters99 DePriest, Darryl............................................. 47100 Glover, Jere................................................. 49101 International Franchise Association.......................... 50102 National Small Business Association.......................... 52103 Small Business and Entrepreneurship Council.................. 54104 Sullivan, Thomas & Sargeant, Winslow......................... 56105106 QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD107108Mr. William Briggs of Texas109 Responses to questions submitted by Chair Ernst, Ranking110 Member Markey, and Senators Cantwell, Shaheen, Rosen, and111 Hirono..................................................... 58112Dr. Casey Mulligan of Illinois113 Responses to questions submitted by Chair Ernst, Ranking114 Member Markey, and Senators Cantwell, Shaheen, and Hirono.. 72115116 NOMINATION OF WILLIAM BRIGGS TO BE117 DEPUTY ADMINISTRATOR OF118 THE SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION AND119 DR.CASEY MULLIGAN TO BE CHIEF COUNSEL120 FOR ADVOCACY AT THE121 SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION122123 ----------124125 WEDNESDAY, MARCH 12, 2025126127 United States Senate,128 Committee on Small Business129 and Entrepreneurship,130 Washington, DC.131 The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:41 p.m., in132Room 428A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Joni Ernst,133Chair of the Committee, presiding.134 Present: Senators Ernst [presiding], Hawley, Justice,135Husted, Markey, Cantwell, and Hickenlooper.136137 OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ERNST138139 Chair. I call the Committee on Small Business and140Entrepreneurship to order. The purpose of today's hearing is to141consider two of President Trump's nominees. First, we have Mr.142Bill Briggs to serve as Deputy Administrator of the Small143Business Administration. And our second nominee is Dr. Casey144Mulligan to serve as the Chief Counsel for Advocacy of SBA's145Office of Advocacy. I'd like to welcome you both here today and146thank you very much for your willingness to serve.147 Just to give folks a quick run of show, I'm going to make148brief opening statements, then I'll turn to Ranking Member149Markey to do the same. Then I will introduce the nominees and150we'll administer the oath. After the oath, Mr. Briggs, and then151Dr. Mulligan will be recognized for their statements. These152statements will be followed by questions from our Members,153alternating between each side. I now recognize myself for five154minutes for the purposes of an opening statement. Again,155welcome to the Committee and thank you Mr. Briggs and Dr.156Mulligan for your willingness to serve in these roles.157 Today, we are considering nominees for two very important158positions. I greatly appreciate the time you've spent meeting159with me and my colleagues prior to this hearing. I want to take160a minute to recognize some of the family and friends who are161supporting you both today. First, and just raise your hand when162I read your name, please.163 First, I want to recognize some of Mr. Briggs family, his164parents, Dodie and Bill. Thank you for being here. As well as165his siblings, Susan, Robert, Ted, and his nephew, Braden. Thank166you all for being here. And then for Dr. Mulligan, I would like167to welcome your wife, Julia. Thank you, Julia. And three of168your five children, John, Elizabeth, which is also my169daughter's name, thank you, and Maeve. Hi Maeve. Thank you. We170appreciate you all making the trip here.171 I appreciate that you both have fully embraced the172Committee's standard, yet extensive vetting of your experiences173and backgrounds in advance of today's hearing and our upcoming174vote on your nominations. As I've shared with both of you, I175believe substantial reforms must be made to get the SBA back in176shape, and that is going to require strong leadership. I am177thrilled with Administrator Loeffler's actions so far, but she178will need a strong partner, and that is why the deputy179administrator role is so critical.180 Traditionally, SBA administers programs and services181falling into three main buckets: counseling, contracting, and182access to capital. Mr. Briggs, previously you worked at SBA183during the critical implementation of the Paycheck Protection184Program. These funds were vital to ensuring Main Street185businesses across America kept their doors open during the186pandemic.187 Unfortunately, there has been fraud in SBA's programs,188especially in the Covid Economic Injury Disaster Loan or EIDL189Program, and I want to know how you will continue to work with190me to root out these fraudsters. Small businesses needed help,191and American taxpayers provided it. But it is completely192unacceptable that bad actors took advantage of this emergency193assistance. Even more alarming, the federal government hasn't194held these criminals accountable. But that must change. So, I195look forward to hearing how you will recoup these funds.196 As you know, Covid recovery is not the only challenge small197businesses faced over the last five years. In my home state of198Iowa, small businesses are the lifeblood of our rural199communities, and for too long, they've been crushed with red200tape, and burdensome and often unnecessary reporting201requirements with no one caring about how that affects day-to-202day operations.203 This brings me to the role of the Chief Counsel for204Advocacy. Dr. Mulligan, I am impressed with your background and205extensive work to ensure economic analysis properly reflects206the cost to small businesses. The cost of regulations for small207businesses is out of control. The last administration208promulgated more than 1,100 final rules costing $1.8 trillion.209The Biden administration's regulatory costs were 600 times210higher than that of the first Trump administration, and 3.7211times higher than that of the Obama administration.212 I have been encouraged by President Trump's executive213orders to freeze and roll back regulations. This, to me, shows214a clear understanding of the need to evaluate the effects, both215direct and indirect, that government regulation is having on216America's economic growth. That said, Advocacy's role remains217true, regardless of party, to ensure that a strong Chief218Counsel stands up for the little guy and warns regulators when219small firms will be harmed.220 I have introduced the PROVE IT Act, again, this Congress,221which requires agencies to consider both the direct and222indirect costs placed on small businesses when promulgating223regulations. It also creates a process where small entities and224representative organizations can ask Advocacy to formally225review an agency's certification of a rule and prove it is226fully compliant with the law.227 I want to ensure that agencies respect and adhere to the228existing laws and give Advocacy further tools to dissuade229federal bureaucrats from making poor decisions that harm small230businesses. This is why Advocacy needs a confirmed Chief231Counsel, and I'm pleased that the President acted swiftly with232this nomination. I want to thank you both for being here, and I233look forward to your testimony.234 I now recognize Ranking Member Markey for his opening235statement.236237 STATEMENT OF SENATOR MARKEY238239 Senator Markey. Thank you, Madam Chair, very much.240 The Small Business Administration is intended to support241small businesses by providing capital contracts and counseling,242but so far Trump's SBA only produce closures, and cuts, and243chaos. Across the federal government, Elon Musk's army of244unelected bureaucrats is taking a chainsaw to agencies cutting245contracts and breaking promises. About a quarter of all246canceled contracts were to small businesses in our country.247 The President's already cut contracts with small businesses248all across our country, many of which were owned by women and249people in minority groups. The Veterans Affairs Administration250also announced $2 billion in contract cancellations, including251some to veteran-owned and service-disabled veteran-owned small252businesses.253 Meanwhile, DOGE has barely touched the largest government254contractors who were responsible for more than $200 billion in255federal contract spending last year. $2 billion, they're all256over that. Those are the smaller companies. $200 billion, the257big defense contractors, they can't find any fraud. And we know258there's waste in fraud all over those contracts. Going to be259honest about it.260 At SBA, specifically, Musk's minions who have no government261experience and zero small business understanding, they've262already fired 720 employees at the SBA. 20 percent of the263workforce has already been laid off, and this includes those264focused on disaster recovery such as victims in North Carolina265and California. As these small businesses seek to rebuild,266they're laying off the SBA personnel who would be able to hear267them listen to their claims.268 DOGE is also closing SBA district offices to cut costs,269including in Springfield, Massachusetts. We had a witness here270from Springfield, Massachusetts just three weeks ago. Well,271they've closed down that office now where that would've been272processed. This will make it harder for local small business273owners to get help from a real-life human being. On top of274this. SBA also announced they would relocate six regional275offices, including the Boston location, over unfounded276immigration issues.277 Administrator Loeffler has not provided Congress with any278information about these activities. We don't know who has been279fired. We don't know which offices will remain open. And we280certainly don't know how many small businesses have been left281without services because of the sudden unprecedented slash and282burn tactics.283 Today, the committee is meeting to consider the nominations284of Mr. Bill Briggs to be SBA deputy administrator and Dr. Casey285Mulligan to be chief counsel at SBAs Office of Advocacy. Mr.286Briggs served as the acting associate administrator during the287first Trump administration, and worked on the Paycheck288Protection Program in 2020, which provided needed relief to289American small businesses during the pandemic and serves as a290shining example of what Congress can do when we work together.291 Traditionally, Mr. Briggs would report to the SBA292administrator and carry out day-to-day operations, but until293this committee gets answers about DOGE operations at SBA, I294believe considering this nominee is premature. Senator Shaheen295requested a briefing on DOGE inside the SBA in this committee296four weeks ago, just so the committee can understand what's297going on.298 And I'm disappointed that the Trump administration still299has not complied. We haven't had any DOGE people come in to300brief us. What are they doing inside the SBA? We're the301committee of jurisdiction. We're the committee that created it.302Will DOGE please tell us what they're doing next.303 We're considering Dr. Casey Mulligan. Dr. Mulligan has been304nominated to oversee the Office of Advocacy; an independent305agency within SBA charged with advancing the views, concerns,306and interests of small businesses before the federal307government. The beauty of this office is its independence. It308is statutorily required to operate separately, not only from309SBA, but from the White House. That's statutorily. However,310DOGE has already infiltrated the Office of Advocacy and311threatened its independent status.312 Separately, I am concerned about Dr. Mulligan's potential313approach to this role. Dr. Mulligan is an economist at the314University of Chicago, a widely respected institution. But315based on his work, I believe his views about regulations lie316far outside the mainstream. He questions policies most317Americans take for granted; a minimum wage, paid sick leave,318reasonable limits on pollution and rules that prevent insurers319from discriminating against people with preexisting conditions.320Without such policies, we would be taken back to a Dickensian321world with no worker, environmental, patient, or consumer322protections.323 Regardless of who is President, every entrepreneur should324be able to rely on SBA to help them start and grow their325business. We must return to this principle and be dependable326for the 34 million American small businesses that run our327country. Unfortunately, I do not think that is the goal which328Elon Musk and President Trump have for our country. So, Madam329Chair, I yield back.330 Chair. Yeah. Thank you, Ranking Member Markey. And as noted331by Senator Markey on February 12th at our hearing, Senator332Shaheen did request an update from DOGE at the SBA, and I have333made that request. The two gentlemen in front of us today,334though, are not part of the SBA yet. We hope to confirm them335very soon, but we have made the request, Senator Markey, and336hopefully we will have a DOGE briefing soon for the Committee337members.338 But I would like to now take a minute to introduce both of339our nominees. And first we will start with Mr. William Briggs,340who is the nominee for Deputy Administrator of the SBA.341Originally from New York, Mr. Briggs currently lives in Austin,342Texas, where he acts as the Director of Regulatory and Federal343Advocacy for the Independent Bankers Association of Texas.344 Previously, he served as the Acting Associate Administrator345in the SBA's Office of Capital Access and was instrumental in346the rollout of PPP during the first Trump administration. Mr.347Briggs also served as the Director for the Office of Public348Outreach in the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency under349President George W. Bush. Additionally, Mr. Briggs has owned350two small business consulting firms. Mr. Briggs received his351undergraduate degree from the University of Michigan.352 And next, we have Dr. Casey Mulligan, who is the nominee353for Chief Counsel for Advocacy. Dr. Mulligan grew up in354Illinois, and is currently a professor at the University of355Chicago, specializing in labor economics, public policy, and356the impacts of regulation on economic behavior.357 During the prior Trump administration, he served as Chief358Economist for the White House Council of Economic Advisors,359where he played a key role in important policy discussions. Dr.360Mulligan also owns two small businesses focusing on consulting361and economic research. Dr. Mulligan received his Bachelor of362Arts from Harvard University, and earned his PhD in economics363from the University of Chicago. Again, we thank both nominees'364families and friends for being here today.365 Now, Mr. Briggs and Dr. Mulligan, if you would both rise,366please. It is the tradition of our Committee to swear in our367nominees. So, please raise your right hand and answer the368following questions. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth,369the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?370 Mr. Briggs. I do.371 Dr. Mulligan. I do.372 Chair. Should you be confirmed as Deputy Administrator of373the SBA and Chief Counsel for Advocacy at SBA, are you willing374to appear and testify before any duly constituted Committee of375Congress when requested to do so?376 Mr. Briggs. Yes.377 Dr. Mulligan. Yes.378 Chair. Are you willing to provide such information as is379requested by any such Committee?380 Mr. Briggs. Yes.381 Dr. Mulligan. Yes.382 Chair. Yes. Thank you, both, very much. You may take your383seats. So, very briefly, I'd like to take a moment to explain384our lighting system that is right in front of you. There are385three lights. Green means go, yellow means you're running out386of time, and red means to go ahead and wrap up your remarks.387And I ask unanimous consent that the nominees' full statements388be included in the record. Without objection, so ordered.389 As your written testimony has been made part of the record,390the Committee asks that you limit your oral remarks to five391minutes. Mr. Briggs, you are now recognized for five minutes392for your testimony.393394 TESTIMONY OF MR. WILLIAM BRIGGS OF TEXAS395396 Mr. Briggs. Thank you, Chair, and thank you Ranking Member397Markey, and distinguished members of the Committee. My name is398Bill Briggs, and it is a great honor to appear before you today399as President Trump's nominee for Deputy Administrator of the400Small Business Administration.401 I'm grateful the President Trump for offering me the402opportunity to again serve America's 34 million small403businesses, which are the backbone of our economy, the404lifeblood of our communities, and the engine of innovation405prosperity. As goes small business in this country, so goes our406nation. I'd like to briefly acknowledge my friends and family407are here today, including my parents, Bill and Dodie.408 I would also like to thank Administrator Loeffler for her409support. There's no stronger advocate for American small410businesses, and already SBA is seeing a restoration under her411leadership. Finally, I want to thank God for everything,412especially the challenges which make me rely on Him.413 During President Trump's first term, our nation's economy414was the envy of the world. Job creators and job seekers alike415were empowered, driving small business formation in a blue-416collar boom through historic tax cuts, fair trade deals, and417deregulation. His agenda had created 7 million new jobs,418delivered his historically low poverty and record employment419for minority communities. Indeed, small business optimism has420surged since the November election because America's421entrepreneurs know help is on the way.422 If confirmed, this will be my third time as a Presidential423appointee, and Administrator Loeffler will be the fourth424cabinet-level administrator that I will have had the425opportunity to serve. During my prior service at SBA, I oversaw426the day-to-day operations of the Paycheck Protection Program,427which helped to save 11 million small business jobs. I hope to428leverage a wealth of institutional knowledge and lessons that429will enable me to hit the ground running, if confirmed.430 I bring to the role over two decades of public service and431private sector experience. My first job out of college was in432state government, working on veterans' affairs and local433economic development issues. From there, I've served in senior434roles at industry, trade associations interspersed with two435Presidential appointments.436 During the last Trump administration, I served as the437Acting Associate Administrator in the Office of Capital Access,438where I oversaw all SBA lending programs. I also served as an439advisor to the Administrator on engaging small businesses440during this crucial time in the agency's history. Finally, I441led internal agency reform efforts, including the SBA field442alignment and rebranding initiatives launched under then443Administrator, Linda McMahon.444 Like many Americans, my belief in the power of small445business is personal. My family is steeped in service to our446country as much as the spirit of entrepreneurship. Both of my447grandfathers served in World War II, and my mother, who's here448today, was an Army nurse. And two of my brothers served449overseas in our armed forces. Two of my sisters currently run a450small business today, and I have owned and operated two small451businesses myself.452 My sister Katie owns a small landscape design company and453often shares how excessive regulations, including extensive454environmental permits, take up her time, drive up her equipment455costs, and hamper her ability to serve her clients. She's456forced to either cut back on employees, reduce her services, or457cut into her own bottom line. Her story is the story of458millions of small businesses who have been put under the459enormous strain over the last four years with excessive460regulation, crushing inflation, and big government bureaucracy.461 Our private sector hiring, though beginning to recover462under President Trump, has declined for over a year. And if we463are to bring back jobs and ensure that the economy continues to464grow, we must first unshackle and support free enterprise. One465of the ways to do that is to ensure that SBA is effectively466serving small business by cutting regulation, eliminating fraud467and waste, streamlining and modernizing services, and468refocusing the agency on its core missions of helping469entrepreneurs thrive.470 With the America First agenda, we are poised to unlock a471new era of growth and opportunity for the risk-takers, job472creators, and innovators who power this nation's economy. If473confirmed, I look forward to supporting President Trump and474Administrator Loeffler to ensure SBA programs deliver results,475real results, for Main Street and all of America.476 Chair Ernst, Ranking Member Markey, and members of the477Committee, thank you for your dedication to U.S. small478businesses. I welcome your questions, and would be honored to479earn your support to serve as the next Deputy Administrator of480the Small Business Administration.481 [The prepared statement of Mr. Briggs follows.]482 [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]483484 Chair. Thank you, Mr. Briggs. And Dr. Mulligan, you are now485recognized for five minutes for your testimony.486487 TESTIMONY OF DR. CASEY MULLIGAN OF ILLINOIS488489 Dr. Mulligan. Chair Ernst, Ranking Member Markey,490distinguished members of the Committee. Thank you for the491opportunity to appear before you today. My wife, Julia, and492three of our children, have joined us to witness part of the493system of checks and balances. I appreciate their support and494sacrifices, as Dad served and hopes to serve again.495 I'm grateful and honored by President Trump's nomination496for the Chief Counsel position of the Office of Advocacy at the497SBA and to join the President's team committed to replacing498government overreach with common-sense leadership.499 I have always lived in Illinois, with the exception of five500years living in the Ranking Member's state, and one year here501in Washington. After I was about three years old, my parents'502sole source of income was the small software business that my503father founded and managed with a partner. My uncle also worked504most of his career at that business. My mother and I worked505there at times.506 In my current capacity as the owner of small businesses, I507am too familiar with uncompromising regulators. Agencies can508shutter businesses or short of that, cause them to throw up509their hands in exasperation and sell out to a big corporation.510 I file at least 10 payroll tax forms every year. It seems511like as soon as one is mailed out, the IRS is asking for512another with a check attached, of course. I got one of my513biggest accounting bills ever a few months ago to comply with514Treasury's beneficial ownership interest requirements.515Considering the relief that President Trump just delivered on516that, maybe it wasn't necessary, but at the time, the Treasury517was threatening all of us small businesses with monetary and518criminal penalties.519 Much of my career has challenged regulatory overreach and520uncovered unnecessarily onerous rules. One of my early projects521was commissioned by family farmers in central Illinois. They522needed to look at the economic effects of eminent domain523because the state was using that authority for private524purposes. I testified about that at the Illinois Commerce525Commission.526 My late father-in-law started an oyster farm, now run by527our nephew. Uncompromising regulators loom even larger there,528always shifting attention away from the shellfish and toward529the customers by hiring lawyers and experts. Once, the farm had530to prove that the regulators don't know how to measure531nitrogen. Another time, it was to refute the government's false532claim that the land under the water is not our land.533 I strongly support Congress's approach of creating an534independent Office of Advocacy and other elements of Regulatory535Flexibility Act to ensure that concerns of and costs imposed on536small businesses receive meaningful weight in regulatory537decisions.538 While the RFA exists on paper, too often small businesses539are getting ambushed. Too many rules are imposed without540engaging or even notifying them. The RFA has rules for541regulators to follow, but often, their attitude is ``Rules for542thee, but not for me''.543 President Trump does not tolerate two-tiered systems. The544law requires keeping businesses in the loop. It requires545reviewing the old rules for their effect on small businesses.546Agency compliance with the RFA does not necessarily need many547resources, particularly when there is an advocacy office.548They're ready to help, supported by Congress and the White549House.550 By ensuring that the Chief Counsel position is filled for551the first time in many years, the members of this Committee can552fully restore small business advocacy and RFA watchdog553functions that it created in its statutes and small businesses554deserve.555 Small businesses also need regulatory solutions that last556beyond a single presidential cycle. They appreciate that the557115th Congress and President Trump used the Congressional558Review Act a record number of times, and this Congress has559gotten off to an even faster start.560 If confirmed, I look forward to working with this Committee561and anyone else in Congress developing legislation to help562agencies achieve their missions at less costs to small563businesses. I also pledge to keep you apprised of the concerns564expressed during the regional outreach process.565 I thank the Committee for its consideration. I welcome your566questions, and would be honored to earn your support to serve567as the next Chief Counsel of the Office of Advocacy at the SBA.568 [The prepared statement of Dr. Mulligan follows.]569 [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]570571 Chair. Wonderful. Thank you, Dr. Mulligan, and Mr. Briggs,572for your testimony.573 Before we move to questions, the Committee has received574several letters of support for Mr. Briggs and Dr. Mulligan's575nominations. And I ask for unanimous consent to enter into the576record letters of support.577 For Mr. Briggs, letters of support from: The National578Restaurant Association, Independent Community Bankers of579America, National Small Business Association, National580Association of Government-Guaranteed Lenders, International581Franchise Association, Texas Association of Business,582Independent Bankers Association of Texas, Texas Venture583Alliance, Economic and Community Development Institute, The584Association of Women's Business Centers, Visiting Angels, Small585Business Multi-Cloud Coalition, and U.S. Black Chambers.586 For Dr. Mulligan, letters from: The National Small Business587Association, Small Business and Entrepreneurship Council,588International Franchise Association, a joint letter from Tom589Sullivan, SBA's Chief Counsel for Advocacy from 2002 to 2008590and Winslow Sargeant, SBA's Chief Counsel for Advocacy from5912010 to 2015, and a letter from Darryl DePriest, SBA's Chief592Counsel for Advocacy from 2015 to 2017.593 Without objection, so ordered.594 Chair. I will now recognize myself for five minutes of595questions. So, we'll start with you, Mr. Briggs. During your596service in the previous Trump administration, you had direct597insight into the Covid EIDL and PPP. As you know, both programs598have suffered from a lack of transparency and experienced over599$200 billion in fraud. These same problems plague many of SBA's600loan programs as I highlighted during last month's hearing on601the 7(a) loan program. If confirmed, do you commit to providing602the Committee with comprehensive and current information on how603SBA's loan programs are performing?604 Mr. Briggs. Chair Ernst, thank you for that question. I'm605tremendously proud of my service, particularly with the606Paycheck Protection Program and the EIDL program. I believe607they did an incredible job of helping to preserve American608small business jobs at the worst economic crisis since the609Great Depression.610 However, as you have noted, there is way too much fraud in611these programs or was too much fraud. And part of that,612particularly with PPP, some of that was statutory-mandated613guardrails that had to be let down by law. But when I was614Acting Associate Administrator, we implemented upfront checks615that reduced a lot of that fraud.616 Since that time, I understand that there have been more617upfront checks and identity verification procedures introduced.618However, should I be confirmed, I will continue to focus on619cracking down on fraud in the current programs and have a zero-620tolerance approach to fraud going forward.621 Chair. Very good. I appreciate that because I am worried622that the 7(a) loan program could require an appropriation if623those defaults are too high without enough fee revenue to624offset the losses that we have experienced. Will you commit to625reviewing the loan portfolios and make necessary policy changes626to avoid taxpayers footing the bill wherever that may lead,627including tightening up eligibility?628 Mr. Briggs. Thank you, Chair Ernst. Yes. The 7(a) program629right now is cashflow for the negative for the first time in 12630years. It was noted in the hearing three weeks ago. It's a631serious problem and one that ultimately ends up hurting access632to credit for all small businesses. I'll work with633Administrator Loeffler, the Associate Administrator of Capital634Access, and all of the relevant SBA staff to make sure that635we're doing everything we can to put that program back to its636historical position of being having a neutral subsidy where the637taxpayers aren't taxed to run the program.638 Chair. Very good. No, thank you. And what, in your639experience, were the pitfalls of SBA's Covid programs.640 Mr. Briggs. Chair, the I've spent the last four years641thinking about lessons learned from that experience. It was an642unprecedented time, as every member of this Committee knows.643And as Ranking Member Markey did know, we did come together to644work on this at a perilous time in our nation's history.645 I would say the first thing is not to shut down the entire646economy and then hope that something like SBA can solve the647problem. I think that if that situation will ever happen again,648hopefully we do have more forethought. I also think that649something, again, like upfront identity checks and650verification. And also, being much more clear about eligibility651guidelines going forward are all things we really need to do in652both our capital access and disaster loan programs.653 Chair. Right. Very good. I appreciate that. And we'll go to654Dr. Mulligan next. And as I've noted Dr. Mulligan, under the655prior administration, small businesses across the country were656burdened with a $1.8 trillion regulatory onslaught, and over657350 million hours of paperwork.658 While the Regulatory Flexibility Act requires agencies to659consider how their regulations impact small businesses and look660to evaluate less burdensome alternatives, agencies have not661followed the law. So, I did re-introduce the PROVE IT Act to662require that agencies evaluate the true cost of regulations and663to empower Advocacy's role to make an agency prove the664regulation is necessary, and mitigate against cost and665compliance burdens for small businesses.666 Do you support increasing transparency and accuracy in the667cost to benefit analysis aspect of SBA's rulemaking process?668 Dr. Mulligan. Absolutely.669 Chair. Easy. Do you agree agencies have failed to properly670consider the indirect costs of their regulations?671 Dr. Mulligan. Almost all of them that I've looked at have672been pretty weak on considering those costs.673 Chair. If confirmed as the Chief Counsel for Advocacy, will674you commit to properly evaluating agency rulemaking for both675its direct and indirect impact on small businesses?676 Dr. Mulligan. I commit to do that.677 Chair. Thank you. And you supportive of the PROVE IT Act?678 Dr. Mulligan. Yes, I support the PROVE IT Act.679 Chair. And right on time. My time is expired. Ranking680Member Markey.681 Senator Markey. Thank you, Madam Chair.682 Dr. Mulligan, the Office of Advocacy sits within the SBA,683but the chief counsel is statutorily independent from the SBA684administrator. And your work is by statute not permitted to be685submitted to the Office of Management and Budget, or to any686other federal agency, or any executive office. That includes,687again, OMB. You can't share information with OMB. You expressed688to my staff that you take that independence seriously.689 However, we know that Elon Musk's minions have already had690conversations with leadership at the Office of Advocacy. Can691you commit to the committee that you will refuse to take692instruction from DOGE or from the administration so that you693are in compliance with the statutory mandate?694 Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question, Senator. I695support President Trump's goal of making government more696efficient. He wanted a mandate in the election to do exactly697that. If you look----698 Senator Markey. But he did not win a mandate to violate699statutes. He said he was going to follow the law. So, the law700says that you cannot share information. Are you going to abide701by that law?702 Dr. Mulligan. If you look at Advocacy's charter statute and703how it's changed over time, it's clear that, number one,704Advocacy has a special hiring authority, as you said. And705number two, as you said, the authority lies with the Chief706Counsel.707 Senator Markey. So, again, I'm going to read you the708statute again. Your work is by statute not permitted to be709submitted, ``to the Office of Management and Budget, or to any710other federal agency, or any executive office.'' Do you agree711to abide by that law? Will you abide by that law?712 Dr. Mulligan. Yeah. And all the statutes related to the713office. I will abide by the----714 Senator Markey. So, you will not share that information715with any other agency? Is that what you're saying?716 Dr. Mulligan. That's correct. The reports are supposed,717according to statute, and would be my practice, submitted to718the Congress and to the President.719 Senator Markey. Okay. What do you believe is your role in720ensuring that congressional mandates are followed regardless of721executive directives? Do congressional mandates take primacy if722they're there as the abiding law?723 Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. I'm not sure I724understand the question. Are you referring to Executive Orders?725 Senator Markey. The question is, do you believe that726statutes that have been put on the books by House and Senate727votes and signed by Presidents take precedence over executive728directives?729 Dr. Mulligan. I'm confused by the question because I even--730I served in the first Trump administration, and I've followed731the second one and there are lots of Executive Orders. Every732single one I've looked at, the primary instruction in those733Executive Orders is for the people reading it to follow the734laws of the United States.735 Senator Markey. Right. So, you are saying that if there is736a statute, that you will abide by that statute and not allow737for an executive order?738 Dr. Mulligan. Yes, I would do that. And I would expect, as739President Trump has done almost 300 times in the past, to tell740me to follow the laws of the United States.741 Senator Markey. All right. Well so you do believe statutes742then are at a higher order than executive orders in terms of743what you must obey?744 Dr. Mulligan. I'm confused because the Executive Orders745themselves say to follow the laws of the United States. So, I746don't see the conflict.747 Senator Markey. All right. Well, sometimes, Presidents when748they're making executive orders believe that they're the law,749even though there's a statute which is very clear as to what750the law is. So, that's the point that I'm making to you. And I751will be holding you to that standard.752 Will you use loyalty tests, Mr. Mulligan, or any other753criteria unrelated to an employee's work product when making754hiring or firing decisions?755 Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. The Advocacy756Officers were created, and if I were confirmed would be my goal757as well, to be an independent voice for small business in758Washington. So, the hiring decisions, procurement decisions,759all the decisions will be around how can we better be an760independent voice for small business with the agencies here in761Washington.762 Senator Markey. Okay. And have you met with the team at763Advocacy yet?764 Dr. Mulligan. I have not been in the building. They have765a--I think we call it a Sherpa, who's helped me find my way to766your office and the different Senator's offices for the767meetings. But I have not met the staff yet.768 Senator Markey. We've heard stories of specific industries769meeting at Mar-a-Lago and getting special treatment from the770administration. Do you agree that that creates market771distortions when special treatment is handed out and it's not772an even-handed application of the law?773 Dr. Mulligan. I'm a little confused by the question. I774haven't been to Mar-a-Lago. I'm not sure what businesses are775going there, what conversations are had. I'd be glad to look in776detail at what you're referring to. But in the abstract, I777don't really understand the question.778 Senator Markey. Well, it's very clear that if someone779visits Mar-a-Lago, and then the President says give special780treatment to one particular company, that would obviously begin781to create a market distortion because it would not be an equal782application of the law that the SBA is supposed to be783discharging.784 Dr. Mulligan. I'm also confused by that. I apologize. I'm785confused by that question, too, because you gave legal terms in786there and then economic terms like market distortion. I'm not787quite sure the connection. I'm not a lawyer. I do understand788the idea of market distortions. I've read many, many articles789about market distortions. I'm not quite how sure how they apply790in the situation you're describing.791 Senator Markey. Thank you, Mr. Chair.792 Senator Husted [presiding]. Thank you, Ranking Member793Markey. So, I'm going to recognize myself now as the acting794Chair on behalf of Chair Ernst for five minutes to ask a few795questions.796 I want to start with this, you know, the Small Business797Administration. I'll start with you, Mr. Briggs. And by the798way, I hold no grudge to the fact that you're a Michigan grad799as a Senator from Ohio. I remember asking a college president800one time about this university that he was running, and I said801can you tell me what the three things that you're really good802at? And he told me five things at the university, maybe six803things that the university was really good at. And I said,804well, what are some of the things that you're maybe not really805good at that maybe you shouldn't be doing anymore? And he806couldn't come up with a one, right?807 Well, we do everything really well. Well, nobody, no808institution is great at everything. And there's some things809that they've discovered over time that they have great value810in. And then there are things that maybe they say, well, you811know, maybe we ought not do that anymore. Maybe there's812something better that we could do with those resources.813 So, based on your experience and your knowledge of the814agency, reflecting on the nature of that question, what is it815that the SBA does that's great, and what might we rethink,816prioritizing resources around that we could do better?817 Mr. Briggs. Senator, thank you for your question. And I do818accept that Ohio State won the National Football Championship.819[Laughter.]820 Mr. Briggs. Here's what SBA does well, and what the focus,821if I'm confirmed, is going to be; doing its core mission well,822what I call the three C's and D. Access to capital,823contracting, and counseling small businesses to grow. The other824important feature of that is the disaster function. And we've825been there as we were five years ago during the Covid pandemic,826but to make sure we're also there now when disaster strikes827across the country. Those are things that the agency can and828should do well and will be the focus, should I be the Deputy829Administrator.830 The things the agency does not do well are things like831direct lending, voter registration efforts, and picking winners832and losers. That should not be the focus of the agency when it833comes to its programs and policies, but rather ensuring that834all of those four core missions that I described are available835and accessible to all Americans.836 Senator Husted. So, on the final point of the things that837it doesn't do well, is it required to do that in statute838anywhere?839 Mr. Briggs. Senator, I actually have been reading the Small840Business Act at night because I haven't been able to sleep in841advance of this hearing. I can't find that. I do think there842are programs in the government contracting area that work with843socially disadvantaged, but that's a separate thing from what844we historically are now referred to as DEI programs. I'm not845aware of that.846 Senator Husted. So, I would assume then with the847Administrator's support that you will no longer be doing those848things that the agency in the past has been doing, but has no849statutory responsibility to accomplish.850 Mr. Briggs. Senator, if I'm confirmed, I will follow the851law and focus on the core agency missions of access to capital,852contracting, counseling, and disaster response.853 Senator Husted. Okay, great. Mr. Mulligan, do you have854thoughts on any of those questions?855 Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. The Advocacy856office is a fairly small office. About 50 people. Has a fairly857tight range of responsibilities that Congress has signed to it.858And as far as I can tell, they've been executing those859responsibilities and not going outside those boundaries.860 Mr. Briggs. Great.861 Senator Husted. Thank you. Mr. Briggs, just another862thought. Part of my previous responsibilities before becoming a863U.S. Senator, I was very involved in economic development and864supporting entrepreneurs through venture funds, and securing865IP, and things like that for entrepreneurial ventures.866 I've rarely bumped into an entrepreneur who's told me that867they need the government involvement in much of what they do.868They normally talk about the things that government does that869are in conflict with what entrepreneurs want to do.870 And so, in your experience with small businesses and871entrepreneurs, what are the things that they most note about872the fact? Because you're a government agency designed to help873businesses, yet most businesses will complain about government874standing its way. What are some of the things that you've875encountered that businesses most commonly tell you,876particularly small businesses, that are problematic for them?877 Mr. Briggs. Senator, over the last four years, I've worked878and counseled everything from venture-backed startups to what879we would call mom-and-pop shops. And almost across the board,880they're not aware of the breadth and depth of regulations that881they have to follow, that they had no idea about.882 And especially with venture backed businesses, particularly883in the financial technology arena, the amount of regulation884just to get to a minimum viable product is unprecedented. And885they just don't even understand sometimes what to do regardless886of the great resources that SBA can provide, including887counseling or access to capital.888 Senator Husted. So, one of the things I think this889committee would find of value is that as you are out there with890counselors and capital and talking with small businesses, if891you could compile a list for us of the kinds of common concerns892that businesses are identifying that they could use relief.893That actually, we don't need government money, we don't need894government help, we need government relief, relief from those895regulations, relief from the things that get in their way. And896I think one of the things would be very valuable, at least I897would think it would be of value to me, is for SBA to identify898those things that are commonly discussed by the businesses that899you're trying to help as impediments to their success.900 So, instead of all the things that government can do for901people, how about the things that government can stop doing to902them that stand in the way of their success? And would you.903Would you commit to working to accomplish that?904 Mr. Briggs. Senator, I will commit to working with that,905particularly with SBA's Office of the Ombudsman.906 Senator Husted. Great. Thank you. Now I would like to907recognize Senator Cantwell for five minutes.908 Senator Cantwell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you so909much. Welcome to the nominees for your positions. And I know910that you probably have given a statement that I haven't been911able to read yet, so we'll look at that.912 But I wanted to ask you about this pressing issue on913tariffs. First, Dr. Mulligan, do you think that the President's914tariff first approach is helpful to small business? Can you915describe the impact of tariffs on Mexico and Canada, two of our916largest trading partners, what you think that would have on917small businesses?918 Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. It is good to919see you again. Trade policy absolutely must consider the920concerns of small businesses, and Congress created an921independent office to advocate for them. President Trump, more922than any President in U.S. history, has prioritized getting923that Chief Counsel position filled. If it goes unfilled too924long, we could be in a position where it's mainly the big925companies that are heard around trade policy rather than the926small ones.927 Senator Cantwell. Okay. Did you have--oh, so you think, in928general, because there's less flexibility of maneuvering,929you're saying it could be a bigger concern?930 Dr. Mulligan. And also, that their voice in Washington is931weak without having an office like Advocacy at full capacity932and full efficiency.933 Senator Cantwell. And what do you think that we should be934doing to communicate about the impact of, of tariffs on those935small businesses?936 Dr. Mulligan. One thing very important, maybe the primary937thing that the Office of Advocacy does, is go out to the small938businesses where they are. They don't require them to know what939phone number to call or where, where to visit in Washington,940what door and what elevator to use. Go out to them. Often,941sometimes in virtual mode as well, especially for the rural.942And listen, just listen, write down and come back to the makers943of the policy, which trade policy or other agencies, and tell944them, hey, here's the concerns that we heard from our945businesses. And the RFA requires you to consider those concerns946when you make your policy decision.947 Senator Cantwell. Thank you. Mr. Briggs, do you have any948comments?949 Mr. Briggs. Thank you, Senator Cantwell for the question. I950just would note that from my understanding of the tariff951proposal, part of that is to bring back onshore manufacturing952to this company country. We've seen some initial indicators953based on employment numbers that 11,000 manufacturing jobs in954the last or the previous month were started. I do think that955this is part of a larger effort to ultimately do that to bring956back manufacturing to the country.957 Senator Cantwell. Well, I definitely agree with you on the958manufacturing jobs, and I would say to my colleague from Ohio,959who was ablely chairing the meeting, that I'm very concerned960because I think that we have brought back jobs in961manufacturing, jobs into the United States because of the CHIPS962and Science Act.963 So, the President right now, it's a different story, but is964saying, you know, maybe he wants to get rid of that. I would965say for places like Ohio, and Arizona, and Texas, it has966absolutely brought manufacturing back. And in the State of967Washington, it's brought manufacturing back. Why we should care968is because manufacturing jobs help people go from working class969to middle class because they're good paying jobs, and they help970small businesses in that region help build an ecosystem.971 So, I do think the President's statement that somehow, he972could have gotten the semiconductor industry to come back and973manufacture in the United States by tariffs. I don't agree with974that. We may have a philosophical difference there. But the975point is that I hear so many people saying that we haven't976grown manufacturing jobs in the Biden administration because of977those policies did grow manufacturing jobs. So, now the978question is how do we could put pedal to the metal and keep979growing it?980 And one of the things that I think a lot of people have981been discussing is how can the policies of the small business982in this administration with access to capital and targeting983some of these supply chain issues, give the American economy a984leg up. So, for example, in my state, we have a lot of--three985different fusion companies. Now we'll see if fusion technology986is really here today, Senator Risch and I chair a Fusion987Caucus. Well, it's a group that's made recommendations to the988United States about how we would accelerate.989 But when you think about CHIPS and Science, it's about990let's get the test bedding done, let's get the next generation991done, and then let's make sure we have the supply chain to992accelerate. And if we can just accelerate now, whether it's993Fusion or something else, let's start working with our supply994chains and small businesses so that they are providing those995products here in the United States. And so, I just want to--do996you think that's a smart strategy?997 Mr. Briggs. Senator, thank you for your question. And I998assume you're addressing me not Dr. Mulligan?999 Senator Cantwell. Yes. Because of your deputy1000administrator.1001 Mr. Briggs. Yeah. I generally support your remarks that1002manufacturing can start a small business ecosystem. My focus,1003if I'm confirmed, is to help bring back that manufacturing1004renaissance, but also to make sure that SBA's core programs1005function as best as possible to serve those small businesses1006that might come about from a manufacturing renaissance under1007the Trump administration.1008 Senator Cantwell. Yeah. My statement was just a little1009different. It said that the test bedding of next generation1010technology, the CHIPS and Science Act, is about speeding up the1011advancement of technology to happen faster than it normally1012would because these big companies or large organizations may1013not have the money to do the kind of research, to do the actual1014test betting. But once the test bedding's done, it's like we're1015off to the races. Okay, now, how do we continue to lead?1016 And I think it's not that manufacturing would draw the1017supply chain or this, you know, eco it is what could SBA do to1018help build, help build that and be cognizant of those1019opportunities. And so, I do think that when you think about the1020AI situation--oh, my gosh, my time's almost over, Madam Chair.1021So, but you think about what happened with chat GPT, here we1022go. We basically demonstrated a major milestone that that1023happened in AI. And then, immediately, China goes and tries to1024knock off one aspect of that on how to do it in a cheaper1025fashion.1026 So, I think hand in hand with being the leaders in1027technology and innovation is then how do we continue to lead on1028the small business and supply chain side of getting those1029products and resources there so that ecosystem can be more1030aggressively grown. I do think that our great prowess as a1031nation is to outpace other countries on the R&D and1032implementation.1033 So, anyway, thank you so much. I will have some more1034questions for the record, but thank you so much.1035 Chair [presiding]. Thank you, Senator Cantwell.1036 And I'll do a second round of questions. And I do know that1037Ranking Member Markey will be back and have additional1038questions as well as a closing statement. So, we'll go back to1039Mr. Briggs. Last year, SBA failed to alert or provide the1040Committee with any information before the agency ran out of1041funding for its disaster assistance program.1042 Administrator Loeffler committed to ensuring Congress has1043transparent and timely information from SBA during her1044confirmation hearing. Can you additionally confirm that SBA1045will keep Congress informed of any changes in SBA's disaster1046program or any potential shortfalls?1047 Mr. Briggs. Chair, thanks for the question. Yes, in all of1048my previous times as a Presidential appointee, especially1049during Covid, I saw it as part of my job to keep Congress1050informed, especially this Committee.1051 Chair. Very good, thank you. Under the Biden1052administration, a myriad of changes to the disaster program1053went into place, likely exacerbating the problems that led to1054the program shortfall last fall. As someone with experience1055leading the Office of Capital Access, how will you ensure that1056the disaster loan program is properly managed during your time1057as SBA Deputy Administrator?1058 Mr. Briggs. Madam Chair, thank you for the question. As you1059said, I did oversee the Office of Capital Access. After I left,1060there was a little bit of that merging with the old Office of1061Disaster. And so now the systems are somewhat merged. I think1062one of two things I would first immediately do is work with the1063current AA or Associate Administrator of the Office of Capital1064Access to understand, especially over the last eight weeks,1065what has been done, but also to work with our new CFO.1066 This is, in my opinion, basic blocking and tackling that we1067have to make sure there's enough money because we know1068disasters are coming. It's inexcusable. We don't know when. But1069Covid taught us one thing, think of the worst, and then double1070it, or triple it, or ten times it. And so, if I'm confirmed,1071that will be my focus to work with both the CFO's office and1072the Office of Capital Access on the disaster program.1073 Chair. So, you've given a very good overview. You are1074committing to ensure that a shortfall never happens again. Is1075that correct?1076 Mr. Briggs. Yes, Senator.1077 Chair. Okay. Thank you very much. And I've got two and a1078half minutes remaining. So, let's go to, again, Mr. Briggs.1079We'll talk a little bit about disaster field training. Iowa1080experiences our fair share of disasters. We've seen derechos,1081tornadoes, you name it. Just last week, Iowans experienced a1082powerful blizzard that left thousands without power. And now we1083are about to go into that tornado season.1084 In disasters, aftermath, there's a lot of folks that are at1085their most vulnerable, and it's, it's something that's very1086tragic. They're doing their best to pick up the pieces of their1087lives that have been destroyed by something completely out of1088their control. Disappointingly, though we have heard repeated1089reports over the years of SBA field staff showing poor customer1090service to the disaster victims who come to them for help.1091 Victims have been profiled, made to feel SBA cannot do1092anything for them, and even left with completely incorrect1093information. This happened in Iowa. This is unacceptable and it1094must be changed. As SBA Deputy Administrator, how will you help1095ensure SBA disaster field staff will be properly trained and1096equipped to help disaster victims access SBA assistance1097 Mr. Briggs. Chair, thank you for that question. It's1098inexcusable when situations happen like that and people are at1099their most vulnerable. When I served in the prior1100administration, one of the initiatives I undertook was the1101Field Lineman Initiative to ensure that there was consistent1102customer service across the country.1103 So, the customer service that small businesses got in Iowa1104was the same they would've gotten in Massachusetts. This is the1105sort of thing that I take great pride in working with the1106Office of Field Operations. I believe the associate1107administrator from there is from Iowa. And so, we'll work to1108address that as quick as possible, but people really need the1109SBA during disasters that was made abundantly clear to me1110during my prior term and will be a key focus of mine getting1111the disaster thing right going forward.1112 Chair. Thank you so much. I appreciate that commitment. And1113then, if--do we have Senator Markey coming back? I think we1114have one more Senator coming, and then we'll go back to Senator1115Markey.1116 But a little bit about our experience in Iowa. Last year,1117during the tornado season, we saw a number of our very small1118communities that have been wiped out by those disasters. In one1119case, 60 percent of the homes and businesses in one town was1120gone after a tornado, and my own staff was on ground to assist1121those people that had been impacted by the tornado.1122 And the SBA field staff had provided inaccurate,1123incomplete, absolutely wrong information, and actually provided1124them a handout with a website that had been dead for heaven1125knows how long. So, that's why it's so important. We have got1126to provide people with accurate information when they are most1127vulnerable.1128 And Mr. Justice is getting situated. So, Senator, if you're1129ready to proceed with some questions, we've had some great1130dialogue today. You're recognized.1131 Senator Justice. Madam Chairman, thank you so much. And1132thank both of these wonderful young men that I've had the1133opportunity to talk to and be with. And I really appreciate1134both that I can tell you just this from Jim Justice's1135standpoint. Jim Justice is a business guy. He's not a1136politician. You know, I'm a small business guy, and I have had1137dialogue with both these individuals and we are blessed. We are1138just flat blessed to have them both.1139 Mr. Briggs was here before, and you bring so much to the1140table. And Mr. Mulligan, I am just so impressed with you. It's1141off the chart. So, with all that being said, I've got a couple1142questions that are kind of bland in themselves, but I would1143just tell you first and foremost that you can't fathom in West1144Virginia how important our small businesses are.1145 But we really can't fathom all across this nation.1146Absolutely. The guts, the absolute everything we have in this1147nation starts with our small businesses. And so, with all that1148being said, again, we have two guys here, two gentlemen that1149are going to lead us, and they're going to knock it flat out of1150the park. And I promise you that.1151 And so, if I could ask this question real quick, Mr.1152Briggs. You've been there before, and my question reads, can1153you tell us today how your prior experience at SBA is going to1154be serve you the very best and serve all of us at the highest1155level?1156 Mr. Briggs. Thank you, Senator, for that question. During1157the first term, I had the privilege to travel your state three1158times on Office of Capital Access Business. I'm a big fan of1159West Virginia.1160 Senator Justice. And you loved it, didn't you?1161 Mr. Briggs. I loved it, yeah.1162 Senator Justice. Now, we're talking.1163 Mr. Briggs. We were doing that during the rural1164initiatives. One of the things that we did, sir, I served at1165the SBA, probably the most crucial time in the agency's history1166outside of its founding, and it was stretched to its limit. And1167so, from that kind of experience, or battlefield experience, as1168it were, you just learn things you would otherwise never learn.1169You understand it, you quickly, intuitively understand how the1170agency works and what's needs to be done.1171 In addition to that kind of insider knowledge of how it1172works, I also bring these tremendous external relationships1173formed during that era, and a willingness to work with the1174Committee on both sides, particularly as it comes to disaster1175response and related issues to better serve American small1176businesses.1177 Senator Justice. I believe that. I believe every part. And1178absolutely not only do I believe, but all of us will hold you1179to that, too. And I think we'll hold you to that very proudly.1180 And if I could go to Mr. Mulligan just real quick and just1181say, just this, West Virginia, I just spoke just a second ago,1182I had the great opportunity to be the Governor of West Virginia1183for eight years. Now, just think about this. I've said this1184over and over and over. What is my number one responsibility1185when I was the Governor? My number one responsibility. You1186know, you may think, well, take care of the people. You know,1187absolutely be there when things get really tough on them and1188everything and all those things are true. Absolutely. Make sure1189we're safe. All those things are true.1190 But the number one thing that I felt was get the economics1191right. Make sure the economics were right, because if the1192economics were right, then you can do so much for so many. And1193if the economics are upside down, and believe me, when I walked1194in the door, and I don't say this braggadociously, but West1195Virginia was bankrupt. That's all there is to it.1196 And all of a sudden, we got it really, really, really1197cooking. And at the end of the day, we'd have never got it1198really cooking if it hadn't have been for great people like you1199and absolutely all the support of SBA, all across the planet in1200West Virginia. So, Mr. Mulligan, understanding all that and1201understanding absolutely how vital our economy is, tell us,1202tell me just a couple of things about how you would support our1203rural economy and absolutely in every way.1204 Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. I was glad to be1205in your office and share with you the priorities that I have1206for the Office of Advocacy, if I'm confirmed. And the rural1207small businesses are something that the office is well situated1208to serve and listen to. Really, it's listening exercise and1209coming back and communicating.1210 So, the office has been, historically it's been to West1211Virginia to visit the small businesses where they are. There1212was a line business there. They recently visited with the1213farmers. We have the opportunity to go out and meet them also1214virtual meetings. And the whole point is to listen and then1215come back to Washington. In Washington, they have authority.1216But not knowledge and relay, Hey, the small business in West1217Virginia, they have these concerns and you really need to take1218them to account before you make your policies.1219 Senator Justice. Well, let me just add one comment. You're1220splitting the bullseye on one thing. You know, I'm a real1221believer, of if you want to know what's going on with your1222business, you got to get you got to get out there and get dirty1223and get right with the people. You know, that's all there is to1224it. And literally, I hear you in every way. And that is a1225terrific answer to me. Madam Chairman, thank you so much.1226 Chair. You bet. Thank you, Senator Justice. We'll go now to1227five minutes to Senator Hickenlooper. Thank you.1228 Senator Hickenlooper. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you1229both for being here, Mr. Briggs, Mr. Mulligan. Appreciate your1230willingness to enter service.1231 I'll start with you, Mr. Briggs. Congress created the SBA1232in the law so that it could promote access to capital for small1233businesses. When I was governor in a different lifetime, we did1234what we call the bottom-up economic development plan. But one1235of the five main things that literally every part of the state1236said is we need better access to capital. And I think that's1237why Congress appropriates money to SBA programs is we get1238access to capital.1239 In the last few months, we've seen the President1240administration try to defy Congress and restrain those funds1241again against frozen money that Congress appropriated and1242really tried to shut down whole agencies that we had created1243through law. And I just am worried that that funding for small1244business is going to disappear for if we're not on top of it.1245So, I want to make sure that you're willing to do everything1246you can to running the SBA in line with the law including1247appropriations as Congress intended.1248 Mr. Briggs. Senator Hickenlooper, thank you for the1249question. If confirmed by the Senate, I will uphold the law in1250a fair and impartial manner.1251 Senator Hickenlooper. Okay. Well, I'll take that as a yes1252then. Mr. Mulligan, small business owners often face a range of1253challenges and barriers and stuff until you've done it. I mean,1254it took me almost two years to raise the money to open my first1255restaurant.1256 But those barriers change over time. They evolve and I1257think it's important that we stay on top of this evolving small1258business landscape and make sure that we're understanding that1259trends like AI changes in the lending market that we're on,1260that we're recognizing how they affect entrepreneurs, how they1261change the access to capital.1262 So, in your view, what developments in the small business1263environment should we be focusing on trying to understand1264better? How would you use the Office of Advocacy to make sure1265that Congress and the SBA stay informed?1266 Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. I agree with1267you, 100 percent. The small business economy changes pretty1268fast, and it's been changing fast in recent times, and that1269means the data we had before is obsolete, and you really want1270to get access to new data that reflects the current situation.1271 You mentioned AI. I think it's a factor. Different types of1272employment relationships are evolving over time. And one of the1273great things about the Office of Advocacy is even before there1274was a Regulatory Flexibility Act, Congress understood that this1275issue of measurement, and they created the office to have an1276Office of Economic Research and do measurement.1277 I think a lot of the members even to this day are relying1278on the small business numbers that come from the office. And it1279would be a huge priority, not just because I've been an1280economic researcher for so many years, but be a huge priority1281for me to make sure the statistics are the best and up to date1282and reflect the current situation.1283 Senator Hickenlooper. I could not agree more. I think that1284I tell my staff all the time is information is power. And the1285more we share that power with where people can put it to use1286like small business entrepreneurs the better off we are.1287 Mr. Briggs small businesses in Indian country face unique1288challenges, and that's no surprise. The landscape is in many1289cases more challenging in a variety of ways. Last Congress, we1290worked with Senators on both sides of the aisle to create bill1291that would codify the SBAs office of Native American Affairs.1292That bill came out of this committee with 18 to 1 vote.1293 If you're confirmed, are you willing to commit to doing1294everything you can or to aggressively try to make sure that the1295Office of Native American Affairs has the resources it needs to1296try and support Indian entrepreneurs who oftentimes have far1297more difficult access to capital than anyone else?1298 Mr. Briggs. Senator, thank you for the question. I'm aware1299of the challenges facing the Native American community. My1300sister lives in New Mexico and has worked on a reservation in1301Taos, New Mexico, and has told me of the challenges facing that1302particular community. I commit to certainly looking at this1303legislation and working with your office and the full Committee1304on this issue as part of if I'm confirmed by the Senate.1305 Senator Hickenlooper. Right. Well, I appreciate that. I1306think in so many ways, the SBA is that bastion, that place1307where entrepreneurs can turn. With all due respect, to the SBA,1308you have to have a little bit of capital, a little bit of1309momentum before the SBA will even answer your call. But once1310you get to that point, the SBA can provide solutions and1311resources to people that when they get that access. And I1312remember when we first got our 7(a) loan and it transformed our1313business in ways that, I mean, would take hours to explain.1314 So, anyway, I tremendously respect both of you for your1315effort to come and help small businesses. They are without1316question the core of our economy. Thank you. I yield back to1317the chair.1318 Chair. Thank you very much, Senator Hickenlooper. And that1319will conclude our questions. If there are no further questions,1320I want to thank Mr. Briggs and Dr. Mulligan for being here with1321us today and for your willingness to serve. We do appreciate1322it.1323 We are going to leave the record open for two days until13245:00 p.m. on Friday, March 14th, for the members to submit1325questions for the record. And we will keep the record open for1326two weeks to edit statements, and submit letters and any other1327relevant materials.1328 Without objection, so ordered.1329 Mr. Briggs and Dr. Mulligan, we would appreciate your1330prompt response to any questions submitted for the record. We1331do require your responses prior to advancing your nominations1332out of the Committee. And with that, the Committee on Small1333Business and Entrepreneurship stands adjourned.1334 [Whereupon, at 3:51 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]1335 [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]13361337 [all]