Hearings to examine the nominations of Stanley Woodward, Jr., of the District of Columbia, to be Associate Attorney General, Thomas Gaiser, of Ohio, to be an Assistant Attorney General,  Joseph Edlow, of Maryland, to be Director of United States Citizenship and Immigration Services, Department of Homeland Security, and John Squires, of Florida, to be Under Secretary of Commerce for Intellectual Property and Director of the United States Patent and Trademark Office.

1[Senate Hearing 119-171]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                                                        S. Hrg. 119-17156                    THE GOOD, THE BAD, AND THE UGLY:7                     AI	GENERATED DEEPFAKES IN 202589=======================================================================1011                                HEARING1213                               before the1415                        SUBCOMMITTEE ON PRIVACY,16                        TECHNOLOGY, AND THE LAW1718                                 OF THE1920                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY21                          UNITED STATES SENATE2223                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2425                             FIRST SESSION2627                               __________2829                              MAY 21, 20253031                               __________3233                           Serial No. J-119-203435                               __________3637         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary3839    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]4041                        www.judiciary.senate.gov42                            www.govinfo.gov4344                                   _______4546                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE474861-677                    WASHINGTON : 20254950                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY5152                  CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa, Chairman53LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina    RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois,54JOHN CORNYN, Texas                       Ranking Member55MICHAEL S. LEE, Utah                 SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island56TED CRUZ, Texas                      AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota57JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri                CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware58THOM TILLIS, North Carolina          RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut59JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana              MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii60MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee          CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey61ERIC SCHMITT, Missouri               ALEX PADILLA, California62KATIE BOYD BRITT, Alabama            PETER WELCH, Vermont63ASHLEY MOODY, Florida                ADAM B. SCHIFF, California6465             Kolan Davis, Chief Counsel and Staff Director66         Joe Zogby, Democratic Chief Counsel and Staff Director6768            Subcommittee on Privacy, Technology, and the Law6970                   MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee, Chair71LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina    AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota,72JOHN CORNYN, Texas                       Ranking Member73JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri                CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware74JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana              RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut75ASHLEY MOODY, Florida                ALEX PADILLA, California76                                     ADAM B. SCHIFF, California7778                 Ben Blackmon, Republican Chief Counsel79                 Dan Goldberg, Democratic Chief Counsel8081                            C O N T E N T S8283                              ----------8485                           OPENING STATEMENTS8687                                                                   Page8889Blackburn, Hon. Marsha...........................................     190Klobuchar, Hon. Amy..............................................     291Tillis, Hon. Thom92    Prepared statement...........................................    2693Coons, Hon. Christopher A........................................     49495                               WITNESSES9697Brookman, Justin.................................................    1098    Prepared statement...........................................    2799100Carlos, Suzana...................................................    12101    Prepared statement...........................................    50102103Glazier, Mitch...................................................     7104    Prepared statement...........................................    55105106McBride, Martina.................................................     6107    Prepared statement...........................................    57108109Price, Christen..................................................     8110    Prepared statement...........................................    59111112                                APPENDIX113114Items submitted for the record...................................    69115116                    THE GOOD, THE BAD, AND THE UGLY:117                     AI-GENERATED DEEPFAKES IN 2025118119                              ----------120121                        WEDNESDAY, MAY 21, 2025122123                      United States Senate,124              Subcommittee on Privacy, Technology,125                                       and the Law,126                                Committee on the Judiciary,127                                                    Washington, DC.128    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:34 p.m., in129Room 226, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Marsha130Blackburn, Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding.131    Present: Senators Blackburn [presiding], Hawley, Tillis,132Moody, Klobuchar, and Coons.133134          OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARSHA BLACKBURN,135           A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF TENNESSEE136137    Chair Blackburn. The Senate Judiciary Committee on Privacy,138Technology, and the Law will come to order.139    And I want to thank all of you for being here with us this140afternoon. As you can see, everyone is curious about AI. And141today, we are going to talk about AI and how this affects our142content creators, our creative community, our children, and how143it affects all Americans when it comes to the digital space and144what happens with AI-generated deepfakes.145    This hearing is titled ``The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly,''146and it is titled in that regard for a specific reason. Now in147Tennessee, we talk about there is a lot of good that has come148from AI when you are talking about logistics, advanced149manufacturing, healthcare, cutting-edge research, and we've150even seen the amazing role that AI has played in giving voice151to some, Randy Travis to be specific, who joined us here on the152Hill recently in introducing the NO FAKES bill. It gave Randy153Travis the ability to share his talent with the world once154again.155    And despite some of these benefits, there are really some156bad and unpleasant sides to AI, and specifically when it comes157to AI-generated deepfakes. These deepfakes cause tremendous158harm, and today, we are going to examine those harms and the159legislative solutions, including the NO FAKES Act that Senators160Coons, Klobuchar, Tillis, and I have introduced. We have161introduced them specifically to address these harms.162    First, these deepfakes pose significant harm to our content163creators, from Music Row to Beale Street, back over to the164Smoky Mountains in Upper East Tennessee. Tennesseans have made165their mark in the music world, and we've got one of those166artists with us today. But the proliferation of these digital167replicas created without the artist's consent pose a real168threat to their livelihoods and the livelihoods of all American169artists and creators.170    The NO FAKES Act is a monumental step forward in protecting171our creative community. It provides landmark protection of the172voice and visual likenesses of all individuals and creators173from the spread of these digital replicas that are created174without their consent. And I am looking forward to speaking175with our witnesses about this critical bill and how impactful176it will be for the creative community.177    And I have got to be clear, our efforts must protect all178Americans from the harms of deepfakes, and that includes our179precious children. In recent years, we have seen a deeply180troubling spike in the use of generative AI to create sexually181explicit deepfake content. Just as concerning, NCMEC saw a--get182this number--1,325 percent increase from 2023 to 2024 in183reports involving generative AI. We have got to do something184about that, and both the NO FAKES Act and the TAKE IT DOWN Act,185which President Trump just signed into law this week, go a long186way to providing greater protections for our children from187these deepfakes.188    These deepfakes have also served as a powerful tool for189fraud. In one example, scammers used AI-generated images and190voices of a multinational firm CEO to steal millions of191dollars. We've also seen celebrities' likenesses192misappropriated in false product endorsements.193    It is clear that Congress has to act, and that's why the194three of us sitting right here on this dais have joined forces,195plus Senator Tillis, who is going to get here in a little bit,196to work on the NO FAKES Act and get it to President Trump's197desk this year. We know that the creative community, all these198content creators, our children, and all Americans deserve199nothing less than our best efforts on this issue.200    And I turn to Senator Klobuchar for her opening statement.201202           OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. AMY KLOBUCHAR,203           A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF MINNESOTA204205    Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much, Senator Blackburn.206I am very excited about this Subcommittee and the work we have207already done together for years on this issue and similar208issues when it comes to tech.209    I share your hopes for AI and see that we are on this cusp210of amazing advancements if this is harnessed in the right way.211But I am also concerned if things go the wrong way. I think it212was Jim Brooks, a columnist, that said he has trouble writing213about it because he doesn't know if it will take us to heaven214or hell. So it is our job to head to heaven, and it is our job215to put some rules in place. And this is certainly one of them.216We want this to work for children, for consumers, for artists,217and not against them.218    And you brought up the example, Chair, of Randy Travis, who219was at the event that we recently had with you and Senator220Coons and myself about the bill and how he used AI in such a221positive way. But then we know there are these risks.222    And one of the things that I think is really exciting about223this week is that, in fact, on Monday, the President signed my224bill with Senator Cruz, the TAKE IT DOWN Act, into law. This225was a bill I discussed with him and the First Lady at the226inaugural lunch. It is an example of use every moment you have227to advance a cause. And then she supported the bill and hoped228to get it passed in the House. Senator Cruz and I had already229passed it in the Senate, and we were having some trouble230getting it done over in the House. So we are really pleased231because it actually does set some track moving forward, even232though that bill is about nonconsensual porn, both AI-created233and non-AI-created.234    It has had huge harmful effects, about 20-some suicides a235year of young kids who think they are sending a picture236innocently to a girlfriend or a potential boyfriend, and then237it gets sent out on their school internet. It gets sent out to238people they know, and basically they believe their life is in239ruins and don't have any other context and take their own240lives. And that is just the most obvious and frightful part of241this, but there are others as well. So I am hoping this is242going to be a first step to some of the work that we can do,243including with the bill that we are going to be discussing244today.245    So AI-enabled scams have become far too common. We know246that. It takes only a few seconds of audio to clone a voice.247Criminals can pull the audio sample and personal backstory from248public sources. Just last week, the FBI was forced to put out249an alert about scams using AI-cloned voices of FBI agents and250officials asking people for sensitive payment information.251    Jamie Lee Curtis was forced to make a public appeal to Mark252Zuckerberg to take down an unauthorized deepfake ad that253included her digital replica endorsing a dental product. While254Meta removed the ad after her direct outreach, most people255don't have that kind of influence.256    We also need rules of the road to ensure that AI257technologies empower artists and creators and not undermine258them. Art just doesn't entertain us. It is something that259uplifts us and brings us together. When I recently met with260Cory Wong, a Grammy-nominated artist from Minnesota, he talked261about how unauthorized digital replicas threaten artists'262livelihoods and undermine their ability to create art.263    So this is not just a personal issue; it is also an264economic issue. One of the reasons our country, one of our best265exports to the world is music and movies. When you look at the266numbers and how we have been able to captivate people around267the world, that is going to go away if people can just copy268everything that we do. And one of the keys to our success as a269Nation in innovation has been the fact--and Senator Coons does270a lot of work in this area. We have been able to respect271copyrights and patents and people own the rights to their own272products.273    So that is why this NO FAKES Act is so important. It274protects people from having their voice and likeness replicated275using AI without their permission, all within the framework of276the Constitution. And it protects everybody because everyone277should have a right to privacy.278    I also am working in the space on AI to put some base rules279in place in my role on the Commerce Committee. Senator Thune280and I have a bill that we are reintroducing on this to set some281rules for NIST to be able to put out there for companies that282are using AI. And then I am always concerned about its effect283on democracy. But that is for a different day and in a284different Committee.285    But I do want to thank Senator Blackburn for her286willingness to come out on doing something about tech,287including the work she does with Senator Blumenthal, the work288that we have done together on Commerce. And if Monday is any289sign with the first bill getting through, and they are in that290Rose Garden signing ceremony, there is more to come. And so291thank you, and I look forward to hearing from the witnesses.292    Chair Blackburn. Thank you, Senator Klobuchar.293    Senator Coons, you are recognized.294295        OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. CHRISTOPHER A. COONS,296           A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF DELAWARE297298    Senator Coons. Thank you so much, Chair Blackburn, Ranking299Member Klobuchar. It is a delight to work with you. And thank300you for inviting me to give some brief opening remarks about301the NO FAKES bill.302    Because of you and Senator Tillis working on this together303since 2023, we have made real progress. There is momentum with304this bill. We have been adding co-sponsors. My thanks to305Senators Durbin and Hagerty, Schiff and Cassidy. We are adding306organizations that are endorsing it like YouTube and RAINN. And307as we saw at the White House on Monday, if there is bipartisan308agreement in Congress and support from the White House that309action is needed, we can make progress in complex, challenging310technical areas.311    This hearing is a chance to look critically at the current312State of the NO FAKES bill so we can both build on that313momentum and answer the questions, what did we get right? What314do we need to tweak? How can we get more co-sponsors and push315to a Full Committee markup?316    So I am excited to hear from our witnesses today. There are317two other Committee hearings going on right now, which is why318you will see Senators come in and out, not a lack of interest.319    Senator Klobuchar. Or be late.320    [Laughter.]321    Senator Coons. Yes. When we were drafting this bill, its322applicability to pillars of the creative community like Ms.323McBride, Martina McBride, or to a movie star like Tom Hanks,324its applicability to people who make a living off of their325voice or likeness was clear. But Senator Blackburn and I agreed326at the outset, the rules we were drafting should apply to327everyone. Everyone should have the power to control their328digital replica online, not just those who are superstars.329    So I appreciate, Chair Blackburn, the witnesses you brought330together today speak to the full scope of what this bill can do331to keep the public safe from scams, just like the bill Senator332Klobuchar just got signed into law, and help wipe nonconsensual333deepfake pornography off the internet.334    Second, the revised draft we introduced last month was the335product of stakeholders negotiating in good faith. Ms. Carlos,336you and YouTube came to the table with the intention of getting337to yes, and we got there. And if Google can get behind this338bill, can handle the obligations that NO FAKES impose, so can339the other tech platforms.340    Thank you. I look forward to hearing from you and returning341to questions.342    Chair Blackburn. Thank you, Senator Coons.343    I would like to introduce our witnesses. Martina McBride is344a Nashville-based singer-songwriter who has sold more than 23345million albums worldwide with six singles hitting number one on346the country music chart.347    In addition to her 14 Grammy Award nominations, Ms. McBride348is a four-time Country Music Association Female Vocalist of the349Year, a three-time Academy of Country Music Top Female350Vocalist, and a member of the Grand Ole Opry. She first signed351to RCA Records in 1991 and has since been awarded 14 gold352records, 12 platinum honors, 3 double platinum records, and 2353triple platinum awards.354    Mitch Glazier is the CEO and chairman of the Recording355Industry Association of America. We use the acronym RIAA. He356helps to represent the rights and interests of over 1,600357member labels. Prior to joining RIAA, Mr. Glazier served as358Chief Counsel for Intellectual Property to the U.S. House of359Representatives Judiciary Committee, as well as numerous other360roles in and around government, including as a commercial361litigation associate. He earned his bachelor's degree from362Northwestern University and his JD from Vanderbilt School of363Law.364    Our next witness is Christen Price. Ms. Price serves as365Senior Legal Counsel for the National Center for Sexual366Exploitation NCOSE. Correct? And she works to combat all forms367of sexual exploitation and advocate for justice for survivors368of sex trafficking, child sexual abuse, pornography, and369prostitution.370    Before her work at NCOSE, Ms. Price served as legal counsel371at the Alliance Defending Freedom, where she specialized in372First Amendment law and conscious protections. Ms. Price earned373her bachelor's degree from Cedarville University and her JD374from Georgetown University Law Center.375    And Mr. Justin Brookman, Mr. Brookman is the Director of376Technology Policy for Consumer Reports, where he specializes in377data privacy and security issues. Before joining Consumer378Reports, he was Policy Director of the Federal Trade Commission379Office of Technology, Research, and Investigation. Earlier in380his career, he served as Chief of the Internet Bureau of the381New York Attorney General's Office. He earned his bachelor's382degree from University of Virginia and his JD from New York383University School of Law.384    And Ms. Suzana Carlos, who serves as Head of Music Policy385at YouTube. Until 2022, she served as Senior Counsel for386YouTube's Music Publishing and in senior positions at the387American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers--we like388to call it ASCAP-Universal Music Group and EMI Publishing. She389is also on the board of Digital Media Association, which390represents the leading global audio streaming companies and391promotes legal access and engagement of music content between392creators and users. Ms. Carlos earned her bachelor's at the393University of California, Los Angeles, and her JD from Fordham394University School of Law. Welcome to each of you.395    At this time, I want to ask you all to rise and raise your396right hands.397    [Witnesses are sworn in.]398    Chair Blackburn. And let the record reflect that everyone399is in the affirmative.400    We will begin with our testimony. Ms. McBride, you are401recognized for 5 minutes and welcome.402403   STATEMENT OF MARTINA McBRIDE, MULTIPLATINUM COUNTRY MUSIC404            SINGER-SONGWRITER, NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE405406    Ms. McBride. Chairman Blackburn, Ranking Member Klobuchar,407Senator Coons, and Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for408inviting me to speak about S. 1367, the NO FAKES Act of 2025, a409landmark effort to protect human voices and likenesses from410being cloned by artificial intelligence without consent. I am411so grateful for the care that went into this effort, and I want412to thank you and your colleagues for making this issue a413priority.414    I started singing when I was 4 years old, and my voice is415at the center of my art form. Each of my recordings includes a416piece of me that is individual and unique. Songs reflect the417human experience, and I am honored that they are a part of418people's lives, from wedding vows to breakups to celebrating419milestones and even the special relationship between a mother420and daughter.421    But today, my voice and likeness, along with so many422others, are at risk. AI technology is amazing and can be used423for so many wonderful purposes. But like all great424technologies, it can also be abused. In this case, by stealing425people's voices and likenesses to scare and defraud families,426manipulate the images of young girls in ways that are427unconscionable, impersonate government officials, or make phony428recordings posing as artists like me. It is frightening, and it429is wrong.430    Congress just took a very important step forward to deal431with sexually explicit deepfake images by passing the TAKE IT432DOWN Act. I want to thank all the leaders, including Senators433Cruz, Klobuchar, Blackburn, and many on this Committee who434worked hard with others to push that bill into law.435    The NO FAKES Act is a perfect complement to that effort by436preventing AI deepfakes that steal someone's voice or likeness437and use them to harass, bully, and defraud others or to damage438their career, reputation, or values. The NO FAKES Act would439give each of us the ability to say when and how AI deepfakes of440our voices and likenesses can be used. If someone doesn't ask441before posting a harmful deepfake, we can have it removed442without jumping through unnecessary hoops or going to court.443    It gives every person the power to say yes or no about how444their most personal human attributes are used. It supports AI445technology by providing a roadmap for how these powerful tools446can be developed in the right way. And it doesn't stand in the447way of protected uses like news, parodies, or criticism.448    I want to thank the technology companies like OpenAI and449Google who support this bill, as well as the legions of450creators who have worked so hard to advocate for it and the451Child Protection and Anti-Sex Trafficking and Exploitation452groups who support it and continue to fight for those who are453most vulnerable.454    In my career, it has been a special honor to record songs455that shine a light on the battles that many women fight,456especially the terrible battle of domestic violence. Many fans457have told me that the song ``Independence Day'' has given them458strength. And in some cases, the song has been the catalyst459that has made them realize that they need to leave an abusive460situation. Imagine the harm that an AI deepfake could do,461breaching that trust using my voice in songs that belittle or462justify abuse.463    One of the things I am most proud of in my career is I have464tried to conduct myself with integrity and authenticity. And465the thought that my voice could be deepfaked or my likeness466could be deepfaked to go against everything that I have built,467to go against my character, is just terrifying. And I am468pleading with you to give me the tools to stop that kind of469betrayal.470    Setting America on the right course to develop the world's471best AI while preserving the sacred qualities that make our472country so special--authenticity, integrity, humanity, and our473endlessly inspiring spirit--that is what the NO FAKES Act will474help to accomplish. I urge you to pass the bill now.475    Thank you.476    [The prepared statement of Ms. McBride appears as a477submission for the record.]478    Chair Blackburn. We thank you.479    Mr. Glazier, you are recognized for 5 minutes.480481STATEMENT OF MITCH GLAZIER, CEO, RECORDING INDUSTRY ASSOCIATION482                  OF AMERICA, WASHINGTON, D.C.483484    Mr. Glazier. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I485am honored to testify today alongside the groundbreaking486artist, Martina McBride, who just spoke so eloquently about the487value of someone's voice, the value of their image, and the488threats posed by abuses of deepfake technology.489    I would also like to recognize the almost 400 artists and490performers and actors who have just signed a statement in491support of the NO FAKES Act with some very simple words. It is492your voice, your face, your image, your identity. Protect your493individuality. That is why we are here. That is what this is494all about.495    Artists' voices and likenesses are fundamental to their496work, credibility, expression, careers. In many ways, these497deeply personal, highly valuable attributes are the foundations498of the entire music ecosystem. And unauthorized exploitation of499them using deepfakes does cause devastating harm. We have to500prevent that harm.501    So my deepest thanks and the thanks of a very grateful502music community go out to all of you, to Chairman Blackburn, to503Ranking Member Klobuchar, to Senator Coons, and to all of the504Senators, Senators Tillis, Hagerty, Durbin, Cassidy, Schiff,505and I hope many more on this Committee and throughout the506Senate for introducing and supporting the NO FAKES Act.507    You did it. After months, actually years, of work with each508other, stakeholders, your counterparts in the House, you have509been able to build bipartisan, bicameral, broad-based consensus510around legislation that will protect not just artists but all511victims of deepfake abuses, including child exploitation and512voice clone scams, which we will hear about from the other513witnesses today.514    You have shaped a commonsense bill that has won the support515of AI companies like Google, who is here today, OpenAI, IBM, as516well as broadcasters, motion picture studios, child protection517groups, free market groups, labor unions, and virtually the518entire creative community. That is hard to do.519    The NO FAKES Act provides balanced yet effective520protections for all Americans while supporting free speech,521reducing litigation, and promoting the development of AI522technology. It empowers individuals to have unlawful deepfakes523removed from UGC platforms as soon as it can be done without524requiring anyone to hire lawyers or go to court in those525situations. It contains clear exemptions for uses typically526protected by the First Amendment, such as parody, news527reporting, and critical commentary. And it encourages AI528development and innovation, targeting only malicious529applications and setting the stage for the legitimate licensing530of rights with real and meaningful consent.531    NO FAKES is the perfect next step to build on after the532TAKE IT DOWN Act. It provides a civil remedy to victims of533invasive harm that go beyond the criminal posting of intimate534images addressed by that legislation and protects artists like535Martina from nonconsensual deepfakes and voice clones that536breach the trust she has built with millions of fans.537    American music is the most valuable music in the world. We538lead in investment, exports, and market power. Music drives the539success of other important American industries, including the540technology industry, through thriving partnerships. If we541signal to the rest of the world that it is acceptable to steal542Americans' voices and likenesses, we have the most to lose. Our543voices and our music are the most popular and will be taken the544most, destabilizing the music economy, our intellectual545property system, our national identity, and the very humanity546of the individuals who bless us with their genius.547    The NO FAKES Act is a critical step in setting America up548as an example and to continue and extend its global leadership549in innovation and creativity. It shows that we can boost AI550development while preserving every individual's autonomy, all551individual liberties, and protect our constitutional property552rights at the same time.553    We are really proud to support this legislation, and we vow554to help you pass it into law this year. Thank you again.555    [The prepared statement of Mr. Glazier appears as a556submission for the record.]557    Chair Blackburn. We thank you.558    And Ms. Price, you are recognized for 5 minutes.559560  STATEMENT OF CHRISTEN PRICE, SENIOR LEGAL COUNSEL, NATIONAL561    CENTER ON SEXUAL EXPLOITATION (NCOSE), WASHINGTON, D.C.562563    Ms. Price. Chair Blackburn, Ranking Member Klobuchar, thank564you for holding this hearing and addressing this truly urgent565matter. My name is Christen Price, Senior Legal Counsel at the566National Center on Sexual Exploitation, NCOSE, a nonpartisan567nonprofit dedicated to eradicating all forms of sexual568exploitation by exposing the links between them. Our law center569represents survivors in lawsuits against those who perpetrate,570enable, and profit from sex trafficking, including pornography571companies.572    Contemporary pornography depicts and normalizes violence,573including asphyxiation, electrocution, and rape. This is574pervasive. The top four sites--Pornhub, XVideos, xHamster, and575XNXX--had nearly 60 billion total visits in 2024. One woman's576husband sexually assaulted her while she was sleeping and put577the video on XVideos, which was tagged ``Sleeping Pills.''578Pornhub hosts child sexual abuse material and sex trafficking579content with their employees admitting that traffickers use580their sites with impunity.581    Forged or deepfake pornography uses AI that is trained on582this kind of abusive content, merging it with the faces of583other women and girls. A 2023 report found that deepfake584pornography increased by 464 percent between 2022 and 2023. The585top 10 deepfake pornography sites had 300 million video views586in 2023. Ninety-eight percent of all deepfake videos are587pornography related, and 99 percent of those who are targeted588are women.589    The perpetrators are disproportionately male. One survey590found that 74 percent of deepfake pornography users don't feel591guilty about it. A high schooler discovered a boy she had never592met took a photo off of her Instagram, created an AI deepfake,593and circulated it through Snapchat. Two years later, she still594hasn't been able to remove all the images.595    A woman whose close family friend made deepfake pornography596of her said, ``My only crime was existing online and sharing597photos on platforms like Instagram. The person who did this was598not a stranger. I was not hacked, and my social media has never599been public.''600    These are serious human rights abuses, violating the person601whose face is depicted and the person whose body is shown.602Survivors report fear; isolation; shame; powerlessness;603suicidal thoughts; doxxing; harassment from sex buyers; and604difficulty attending school, maintaining jobs, and605participating in public life. This is a form of sexual606exploitation from which it is impossible to fully exit.607    There is a very old idea that to protect more privileged608women from male violence, society needs an underclass of women609that men can violate with impunity. This was always a morally610inexcusable premise, and the rise of forged pornography shows611that it is also a lie. Deepfake technology allows any man to612turn any woman into his pornography. These are impossible613conditions for equality. As Andrew Dworkin stated in his book,614``The civil impact of pornography on women is staggering. It615keeps us socially silent, socially compliant. It keeps us616afraid in neighborhoods and it creates a vast hopelessness for617women, a vast despair. One lives inside a nightmare of sexual618abuse that is both actual and potential, and you have the great619joy of knowing that your nightmare is someone else's freedom620and someone else's fun.''621    The harms are severe and irreversible, so deterrence is622essential. This is why NCOSE supported the bipartisan effort to623pass the TAKE IT DOWN Act, which the President signed into law624on Monday, and requires online platforms to remove625nonconsensual content within 48 hours of being notified.626    NCOSE strongly supports three additional bills that627complement TAKE IT DOWN, the NO FAKES Act, the Kids Online628Safety Act and the DEFIANCE Act. These bills help protect629individuals from the harmful effects of image-based sexual630abuse and increase pressure on tech companies to manage631websites more responsibly.632    Finally, NCOSE is concerned about the recent AI State633moratorium language included in the House Budget Reconciliation634bill, as it creates a disincentive for AI companies to put635safety first.636    Technological progress should not come at the expense of637human dignity. It is our collective responsibility to protect638the voice, face, and likeness of every person from unauthorized639use.640    Thank you.641    [The prepared statement of Ms. Price appears as a642submission for the record.]643    Chair Blackburn. We thank you.644    And I will note for the record that we are submitting your645full testimony into the record with all of your footnotes. I646really appreciate that. Thank you so much.647    Mr. Brookman, you are recognized for 5 minutes.648649 STATEMENT OF JUSTIN BROOKMAN, DIRECTOR OF TECHNOLOGY POLICY,650               CONSUMER REPORTS, WASHINGTON, D.C.651652    Mr. Brookman. Thank you, Chairwoman Blackburn, Ranking653Member Klobuchar. Thank you very much for the opportunity to654get to testify here today.655    I am here on behalf of Consumer Reports, where I head up656our work on tech policy advocacy. We are the world's largest657independent testing organization. We use our ratings, our658journalism, our surveys, our advocacy to try to create a more659fair, healthier, and safer world.660    I am gratified the Committee is focusing on the problems661created by audio and video deepfakes, which, for better or662worse, are getting more realistic and convincing every day.663They are used in romance scams and grandparent scams where a664relative gets a frantic call from a distressed family member665who is in immediate need of cash. As the Chairwoman noted, they666are used in fake testimonial videos from celebrities hawking667everything from meme coins to cookware. I believe Elon Musk is668one of the most frequently impersonated celebrities online.669    As Ms. Price testified eloquently, obviously, one of the670most prevalent uses is for the creation of nonconsensual671intimate images and videos. And they are increasingly used to672propagate misinformation, certainly in the political realm, but673also in the more petty personal realm. There is a story in674Maryland recently about an aggrieved teacher who created675deepfake audio of his boss saying racist and antisemitic slurs.676As this last example shows, realistic cloning tools are easily677available to the public and very cheap and easy to use.678    Earlier this year, Consumer Reports conducted a study of679six voice-cloning tools that are easy to find online to see how680easy it would be to create fake audio based on a public681recording like a YouTube clip. Our study found that four of the682six companies we looked at didn't employ any reasonable683technical mechanisms to reasonably ensure they had the consent684of the person whose voice was being cloned. Instead, the685customer just had to click, like, yes, I have the person's686consent. Two require the person to read a script to help687indicate the person was onboard with having their voice cloned.688Four of the companies also did not collect much identifying689information from customers, just a name or an email address to690start creating deepfake voice clones.691    Given how likely abuse of these services are, I don't think692they were doing enough. And a lot of our members agree. We693recently got 55,000 signatures on a recent petition asking the694Federal Trade Commission and State Attorneys General to695investigate whether these services were in violation of696existing consumer protection laws.697    And that brings me to solutions. So one thing, we need698strong consumer protection agencies who have the resources to699crack down on abusive emerging technologies. Last year, the FTC700brought a handful of AI cases as part of Operation AIs' Comply,701but they don't have the capacity right now to confront the702massive wave of scams and abuses online.703    Tools and responsibilities, I think some of these AI-704powered tools are designed such that they are almost always705going to be used for illegitimate purposes, whether it is706deepfake pornographic image generators or voice impersonation.707Developers of these tools need to have heightened obligations708to try to forestall harmful uses. If they can't do that, then709maybe they should not be freely available to the public.710    Platforms too need to be doing more to proactively get711harmful material off their platforms. It is a very difficult712job. It takes resources, but it absolutely needs to be done.713    Transparency: People deserve to know whether the content714they are seeing online is real or fake. I know there have been715a number of bills introduced in this Congress to try to address716that. Also, there is a law recently passed in California to717start to put transparency obligations on entities that make718deepfake content.719    Stronger privacy and security laws: As this Committee knows720very well, the United States generally has fairly weak legal721protections. As the Ranking Member noted, the ready722availability of information about us online makes it easier for723scammers to target us with scams. We have seen a ton of724progress at the State level on privacy and security laws, but725they are not strong enough.726    Whistleblower protections and incentives: In many cases, we727only find out about abuses inside these tech companies when728someone comes forward with their story. I was glad to see729bipartisan legislation introduced on this issue protecting AI730whistleblowers in the last week.731    Education: I don't want to put all the burden on consumers,732but the reality is this is the world we live in. We need to733teach people to look out for these sorts of scams. We are part734of a campaign called Pause Take9, which tries to train people735that if they get an urgent call to action, they should pause,736take 9 seconds, think about if this is real or not.737    And finally, I want to echo the words of Ms. Price about a738lot of discussion about a moratorium on State laws policing bad739uses of AI. I want to stress this is the wrong idea. AI has740tremendous, amazing potential, but as this hearing shows, it741has some real potential harms as well. The States have been742leaders in trying to address these harms, whether it is743privacy, co-opting performers' identities, regulating self-744driving cars, rooting out hidden biases, other deepfakes. AI is745an incredibly powerful technology, but that does not mean it746should be completely unregulated.747    Thank you very much, and I look forward to answering your748questions.749    [The prepared statement of Mr. Brookman appears as a750submission for the record.]751    Chair Blackburn. And Ms. Carlos, you are recognized for 5752minutes.753754  STATEMENT OF SUZANA CARLOS, HEAD OF MUSIC POLICY, YOUTUBE,755                       BROOKLYN, NEW YORK756757    Ms. Carlos. Chairwoman Blackburn, Ranking Member Klobuchar,758and Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity759to speak with you today on the important topic of the NO FAKES760Act and AI-generated digital replicas. My name is Suzana761Carlos, and I serve as the Head of Music Policy for YouTube.762    Just last month, YouTube marked the 20th anniversary of the763first video ever uploaded to our platform. It is difficult to764fathom how much the world and YouTube have changed in those 2765short decades. Today, we have over 2 billion active monthly766members on our platform across more than 100 countries, with767500 hours of content uploaded every minute. We are proud that768YouTube has transformed culture through video and built a769thriving creator economy here in the United States and around770the world.771    Our unique and industry-leading revenue-sharing model772empowers our creators to take 55 percent of the revenue earned773against ads on their content. And as a result, YouTube's774creative economy has contributed more than $55 billion to the775United States' gross domestic product and supported more than776490,000 full-time American jobs in the last year alone. In the7773 years prior to January 2024, YouTube paid more than $70778billion to creators, artists, and media companies.779    At YouTube Music, we built one of the world's deepest780catalogs, over 100 million official tracks, plus remixes, live781performances, covers, and hard-to-find music you simply can't782find anywhere else. We have now reached over 125 million paid783YouTube music and premium subscribers. And YouTube continues to784be at the forefront of handling rights management at scale,785protecting the intellectual property of creators and our786content partners, ensuring that they can monetize their content787and keeping YouTube free for viewers around the world.788    In 2007, YouTube launched Content ID, a first-of-its-kind789copyright management system that helps rightsholders790effectively manage their works. Rightsholders or their agents791provide YouTube with reference files for their works they own,792along with metadata, such as title and detailed ownership793rights. And based on these references, YouTube creates digital794fingerprints for those works in question and scans the platform795to determine when content in an uploaded video matches the796reference content. Rightsholders can instruct the system to797block, monetize, or track the reference content. And over 99798percent of the copyright issues on YouTube are handled through799Content ID. It has also proven to be an effective revenue800generation tool for rightsholders, as over 90 percent of801Content ID claims are monetized.802    And as we navigate the evolving world of AI, we understand803the importance of collaborating with partners to tackle804emerging challenges proactively. We firmly believe that AI can805and will supercharge human creativity, not replace it.806    Indeed, AI has the potential to amplify and augment human807creativity, unlocking new opportunities for artists, creators,808journalists, musicians, and consumers to engage creatively with809new tools and play an active role in innovation. We are already810seeing creators exploring new areas, including the creation of811new types of music, books, photography, clothing, pottery,812games, and other art inspired in collaboration with AI models.813And as this technology evolves, we must collectively ensure814that it is used responsibly, including when it comes to815protecting our creators and viewers.816    Platforms have a responsibility to address the challenges817posed by AI-generated content, and Google and YouTube stand818ready to apply our expertise to help tackle them on our819services and across the digital ecosystem.820    We know that a practical regulatory framework addressing821digital replicas is critical, and that is why we are especially822grateful to Chairwoman Blackburn, Senator Coons, Ranking Member823Klobuchar, and all the bill sponsors for the smart and824thoughtful approach adopted in developing the NO FAKES Act of8252025. We deeply appreciate their willingness to bring a variety826of stakeholders together to forge a consensus on this important827topic.828    YouTube and Google are proud to support this legislation,829which tackles the problems of harm associated with unauthorized830digital replicas and provides a clear legal framework to831address these challenges and protect individuals' rights. The832NO FAKES Act appropriately balances innovation, creative833expression, and individuals' rights while offering a broadly834workable, tech-neutral, and comprehensive legal solution. By835supplanting the need for a patchwork of inconsistent legal836frameworks, the NO FAKES Act would streamline global operations837for platforms like ours and empower artists and rightsholders838to better manage their likeness online. We look forward to839seeing the legislation passed by Congress and enacted into law.840    We have similarly proudly supported the TAKE IT DOWN Act841because it is critical to prevent bad actors from producing and842disseminating nonconsensual explicit images. We would like to843thank Ranking Member Klobuchar, along with Senator Cruz, for844their leadership on the legislation. This is an area we845continue to invest in at Google, building our longstanding846policies and protections to ultimately keep people safe online.847    Thank you again for inviting me to participate in today's848hearing. I look forward to your questions.849    [The prepared statement of Ms. Carlos appears as a850submission for the record.]851    Chair Blackburn. And we thank you all for sticking to the8525-minute clock. I didn't have to gavel down a person.853    [Laughter.]854    Chair Blackburn. These are great content creators, I mean,855so there we go.856    I am going to recognize myself for 5 minutes for questions.857    And as Senator Coons said earlier, there are going to be858Members coming and going because we do have a variety of859hearings that are going on.860    Ms. McBride, I want to come to you first. I think that your861perspective is such an important perspective as we talk about862this and talk on the direct impact to someone who is creating863content. And I appreciated so much that in your testimony, you864talked about how your voice and likeness, along with so many865other creators, that that is at risk. And therefore, your866livelihood is at risk.867    So talk a little bit about how harmful deepfakes are in the868long term and why it is important to get legislation like this869to the President's desk. And then talk about fellow artists870that you have spoken with and their concerns on the issue.871    Ms. McBride. Well, as you said, it does affect livelihood872for musicians, backup singers, voiceover actors, authors, like873so many people in the arts. For me, being established and874having done this for over 30 years, that's not necessarily my875first concern. I have the luxury of that not being my first876concern, but it is a concern for younger artists that are877coming up.878    So as I said in my testimony, the thing that I am most879concerned with personally is how we work so hard to present880ourselves with integrity and a certain character. And the fact881that, you know, long term, that could be distorted or882manipulated to be the opposite of what I stand for and what I883believe or to be used to cause harm to someone through884endorsing a harmful product or, you know, far into the future,885after I am gone, somebody creating a piece of music or me886saying something that I never did. And it just kind of like887disintegrating what I have worked so hard to establish, which888is trust with my fans, with people who, you know, when I say889something, they believe it.890    I think for younger artists, to your point of livelihood,891to be new and having to set up what you stand for and who you892are as a person, as an artist, what you endorse, what you893believe in, and establishing a trust with your fans, and then894on top of it, having to navigate these waters of someone coming895in and distorting all of that is devastating. Like, I don't896know how--I can't stress enough how it can impact the careers897of up-and-coming artists and even just in their ability to, you898know, speak their truth or just to live in fear of being a899victim of these deepfakes.900    Chair Blackburn. Yes. Mr. Glazier, I want to come to you on901something you mentioned about the critical balance of902protecting the artists' voices and likenesses and then also903reducing litigation. And that is why we need to have this904framework. And I think helping artists stay out of court, I905mean, they're at a point where they may have to spend much of906what they have earned in order to protect themselves and to907protect their brand, if you will, if you will elaborate on908that.909    Mr. Glazier. Sure, I am happy to. The bill has to be910effective and practical at the same time, both for the victim911and for the platform who is going to limit the damage to the912victim. It has to work on both ends. And that is why I think913the approach that was taken both in the TAKE IT DOWN Act and in914this act are so important, especially in areas where the915platform has less knowledge and less control because end users916are posting on the platform. And those can go viral very, very917quickly.918    The ability for the platform to take it down as soon as,919you know, technically and practically feasible so that they920stop the damage and to keep it down so that the artist or any921other victim doesn't have to spend their lives monitoring a922platform and continually sending more notices and more notices923as end users keep putting up the same material over and over924and over again. We now have tools that will allow the removal925off of the platform. And once the removal is done, the damage926can be limited. There is no liability for the platform, and the927artist doesn't have to spend their time just litigating.928    Where there is more knowledge and control, right, where the929platform has an employee upload it, for example, then there930should be responsibility on the platform. And those are cases931where you might need to go to court because the platform could932have prevented it, and they didn't prevent it.933    So I think the bill is incredibly balanced and really934innovative in its approach to protecting free speech, reducing935litigation, but also effectively protecting the right that is936necessary.937    Chair Blackburn. Senator Klobuchar, you are recognized.938    Senator Klobuchar. All right. Thank you very much. I guess939I will start with Mr. Brookman, the non-Grammy winner.940    [Laughter.]941    Senator Klobuchar. And I want to talk to you just a little942bit about this consumer angle here, which I think is943interesting to people. And I think at its core, all of us944involved in this legislation have made it really clear that it945is not just people who are well known that will be hurt by this946eventually and that getting this bill passed as soon as947possible is just as important for everyone.948    But I do so appreciate Ms. McBride's being willing to come949forward because those stories and the stories that we have950heard from, like I mentioned, Jamie Lee Curtis or the stories951that we have heard from many celebrities are very important to952getting this done.953    So you just did a report, AI-generated voice cloning scams,954including that AI voice cloning applications, in the words of955the report, ``presents a clear opportunity for scammers.'' And956we need to make sure our consumer protection enforcers are957prepared to respond to the growing threat of these scams. I had958this happen to my State Director's husband, who their kid is in959the Marines and they got a call. They figured out that it960wasn't really him asking for stuff and money. They knew he961couldn't call from where he was deployed to. But this is just962going to be happening all over the place. And the next call963will be to a grandma who thinks it is real and she sends her964life savings in.965    So I have called on the FTC and the FCC to step up their966efforts to prevent these voice cloning scams. And what are some967of the tools that agencies need to crack down on these scams,968even outside of this bill?969    Mr. Brookman. Yes, absolutely. So I think the first thing970that the Federal Trade Commission probably needs is more971resources. They only have like 1,200 people right now for the972entire economy. That is down from 100 just in the past couple973of months.974    Senator Klobuchar. Way down from even during like the Nixon975era.976    Mr. Brookman. Yes, like 1,700 it used to be and the economy977has grown like three or four times. Chairman Ferguson has said978more cuts are coming, which I think is the wrong direction. I979worked at the Federal Trade Commission for a couple of years.980We could not do like a fraction of all the things that we981wanted to do to protect consumers. So people, more capacity,982more technologists, like there is just not enough technology983capacity in government.984    I was in the Office of Technology, Research, and985Investigation there. That was like five people. That is just986not enough. Obviously, with all these very sophisticated--I987mean, just, just deepfakes alone, let alone the rest of the988tech economy. The ability to get penalties and even injunctive989relief, right? If someone gets caught stealing something, the990FTC often doesn't have the ability to make them give the money991back.992    Senator Klobuchar. Yes.993    Mr. Brookman. I know this Committee has tried to restore994that authority, but that would be important.995    And also like, you know, again, maybe it is clear, FTC996could have rulemaking authority, but also I would like to see997Congress consider legislative authority to address tools. Like,998again, if you are offering a tool that can be used only for999harm, voice impersonation, deepfake pornographic images, maybe1000there should be responsibilities to make sure it is not being1001used for harm.1002    Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Thank you.1003    Ms. Carlos, can you talk about what YouTube is doing to1004ensure it is not facilitating these scams?1005    Ms. Carlos. Sure. And thank you for the question, Senator.1006    Senator Klobuchar. And thanks for your support for the1007bill.1008    Ms. Carlos. Of course. So just to primarily consider, we1009obviously see great and tremendous opportunity coming from AI,1010but we also acknowledge that there are risks, and it is our1011utmost responsibility to ensure that it is deployed1012responsibly. So we have taken a number of efforts to protect1013against unharmful contact on our platform. Primarily, we have1014updated our privacy policies last year to ensure that all1015individuals can now submit a notice to YouTube when their1016unauthorized voice or likeness has been used on our platform.1017And once reviewed, it is applicable and we have confirmed that1018that content should be removed, we will take it down.1019    We have additionally implemented watermarks on our AI1020products. We originally began with both image and watermarks1021using our SynthID technology. And we have recently expanded it1022to also be applied to text generated from our Gemini app and1023web experience and most recently, as part of our VO video tool.1024    Senator Klobuchar. Okay.1025    Ms. Carlos. We have also taken the additional step to1026become a member of C2PA, the Coalition for Content Provenance1027and Authenticity. And there, we are serving as a steering1028member to work with the organization to create indicators and1029markings that will allow the content provenance that was1030created off platforms to additionally be recognized, and we are1031deploying those technologies across our platform.1032    Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Thank you. We have mentioned the1033TAKE IT DOWN Act, and thank you for the support for that.1034    Mr. Glazier, you talked about how this is the first Federal1035law related to generative AI and that it is a good first step.1036And could you talk about how if we don't move on from there and1037we just stop and don't do anything for years, which seems to be1038what has been going on, what is going to happen here and why it1039is so important to do this?1040    Mr. Glazier. I think there is a very small window and an1041unusual window for Congress to get ahead of what is happening1042before it becomes irreparable. The TAKE IT DOWN Act was an1043incredible model. It was done for criminal activity, you know--1044--1045    Senator Klobuchar. I know.1046    [Laughter.]1047    Mr. Glazier. Yes, right, you know. You wrote it.1048    [Laughter.]1049    Mr. Glazier. It was a great model, but it only goes so far.1050But we need to use that model now, and we need to expand it1051carefully in a balanced way to lots of other situations, which1052is exactly what the NO FAKES Act does.1053    Senator Klobuchar. Right.1054    Mr. Glazier. And I think, you know, we have a very limited1055amount of time in order to allow people and platforms to act1056before this gets to a point where it is so far out of the barn1057that instead of encouraging responsible AI development,1058instead, we allow investment and capital to go into----1059    Senator Klobuchar. Into----1060    Mr. Glazier [continuing]. AI development that hurts us.1061    Senator Klobuchar [continuing]. Stealing things, yes.1062    Mr. Glazier. So let's encourage investment the right way to1063boost great AI----1064    Senator Klobuchar. Right.1065    Mr. Glazier [continuing]. Development and be first. Let's1066not be the folks that encourage investment in AI technologies1067that really harm us.1068    Senator Klobuchar. And Ms. Price, you have expressed1069concerns about this 10-year moratorium on State rules. I am1070very concerned, having spent years trying to pass some of these1071things, and I think that one of the ways we pass things1072quickly, like Mr. Glazier was talking about, is if people1073actually see a reason that they don't want to patchwork, they1074want to get it done. But if you just put a moratorium and you1075look at like the ELVIS law coming out of Tennessee, Ms.1076McBride, and some of the other things that would stop all of1077that. My last question here before we go to another round,1078could you talk about why you are concerned about what is right1079in front of us now, which is this 10-year moratorium?1080    Ms. Price. Yes. Thank you for the question, Senator. We are1081concerned about the moratorium because it is basically1082signaling to the AI companies that they can kind of do whatever1083they want in the meantime, and it inhibits States' ability to1084adapt their laws to this form of technology that is changing1085very quickly and then has this potential to cause great harm.1086    Senator Klobuchar. Thank you.1087    Chair Blackburn. And I know Senator Coons is on his way and1088Senator Hawley is coming back, but Ms. Price, staying with you,1089you talked about the TAKE IT DOWN Act and the importance there,1090but touch on the gap that NO FAKES fills for a child who may1091have something posted, but yet it doesn't fit under TAKE IT1092DOWN and how this would open up an avenue of recourse for them.1093    Ms. Price. Yes, thank you, Senator. So under the NO FAKES1094Act, because there is a private right of action, there would be1095another way essentially for a victim to seek accountability1096from a perpetrator or platform, which is really important1097because the layers of accountability are what really deter bad1098actors from engaging in harm. So having the criminal, but then1099also having the ability to do the private right of action, the1100civil action is important.1101    Chair Blackburn. And speaking to the States and their1102actions, I do want to mention that Tennessee passed the ELVIS1103Act, which is like our first generation of the NO FAKES Act.1104And we certainly know that in Tennessee, we need those1105protections. And until we pass something that is federally1106preemptive, we can't call for a moratorium on those things,1107so----1108    Senator Klobuchar. Excellent statement.1109    Chair Blackburn. Of course.1110    [Laughter.]1111    Chair Blackburn. Of course. Ms. Carlos, I want to talk with1112you for just a minute. And we are grateful for the support that1113you all have talked about. And there is a provision in the bill1114that I know is important to your platform and many others, and1115that's the notification piece and giving individuals harm. You1116have talked about artists being able to contact you, but for1117you all to be able to notify and letting people know about this1118and then asking for that content to come down and then taking1119that action.1120    As we have worked on the Kids Online Safety Act, one of the1121complaints that had come to Senator Blumenthal and I from1122individuals that tried to get things off was they could not get1123a response. So this is something that that notification is an1124imperative. So talk a little bit about how you are approaching1125notification.1126    Ms. Carlos. Thank you. Thank you for the question. Yes, so1127in looking at the framework of NO FAKES, again, we began with a1128voluntary framework on YouTube, which allows individuals to1129notify us when digital replica content of them is online. And1130this is smartly mirrored in the NO FAKES Act. It empowers a1131user to identify content and flag it to us when they believe it1132should be removed for an unauthorized use of their voice or1133likeness.1134    And as you mentioned, that notification is critical because1135it signals to us the difference between content that is1136authorized and harmful fakes. And it is with that notice that1137we are able to review content and make an informed decision as1138to whether or not it should be removed.1139    Chair Blackburn. And then what is your length of time for1140getting it down upon receiving notification? What is your1141process going to be on implementation?1142    Ms. Carlos. Sure. So as a similar framework, we envision as1143under the DMCA where a web form would be easily available for1144any user quickly filled out and then submitted to our trust and1145safety team. We make every effort to review every notice on a1146case-by-case basis and remove it as soon as possible.1147    Chair Blackburn. So are you talking hours, days? What is1148your framework?1149    Ms. Carlos. I don't have the exact number on the top of my1150head, but I do know that we try to process every notification1151as quickly as possible.1152    Chair Blackburn. Thank you. If you will check on that----1153    Ms. Carlos. Sure.1154    Chair Blackburn [continuing]. And then get that information1155back to us, I think we would like to know that because the fact1156that this has taken such lengths of time for people to have any1157kind of response has been very difficult for consumers, and1158they feel like they are talking to the outer space and nobody1159is listening and nobody is responding.1160    Ms. Carlos. Thank you for flagging the concern. I would be1161happy to followup with you and the Committee.1162    Chair Blackburn. I appreciate that.1163    Senator Coons, you are recognized for 5 minutes.1164    Senator Coons. Thank you so much, Madam Chair.1165    I would like to first thank Ms. McBride for being here to1166testify in support of NO FAKES. Could you speak to why this1167bill is so important, both to protect artists like you and to1168protect your fans?1169    Ms. McBride. Thank you. I think that it is important1170because, as artists, we hopefully want to speak the truth. We1171want to build a relationship with our fans in which they trust1172us so they believe what we say. So when you have something like1173a deepfake that either sells a product or says a statement, it1174can be so harmful to that trust. You know, I mean, I just1175realized sitting here that I bought a product, a collagen1176supplement off of Instagram the other day because it had LeAnn1177Rimes and a couple of other people, and I am sitting here1178thinking, oh my goodness, I don't even know if that was really1179them, right? So it is damaging to the artist and to the fan.1180    You know, we had a situation personally where one of my1181fans believed they were talking to me, ended up selling their1182house and funneling the money to someone who they thought was1183me. That is so devastating to me to realize that somebody who1184trusts me could be duped like that, you know?1185    And then also I think that eventually, somebody who is1186duped by a deepfake is going be angry enough to have1187retribution, which we are on stages in front of thousands of1188people. We are in public places. So it is a danger to the1189artist as well.1190    Senator Coons. Mr. Glazier, to followup on Ms. McBride's1191testimony, what do you think are the consequences for the music1192industry if we don't get NO FAKES over the finish line? What1193will the consequences be for music fans and for the industry?1194    Mr. Glazier. The entire music ecosystem is dependent on the1195authentic voice and the authentic image of the artist, right?1196That is what the music industry is. If you allow deepfakes to1197perpetuate, you are taking the soul out of the art. And when1198you do that, you are taking the humanity out of the art. And1199that is what art is.1200    So I think it is fairly existential that the voice of music1201be the voice of music. I think that is what everything is built1202on. And the idea, it is almost bizarre that we have to sit here1203today talking about allowing someone to protect the use of1204themselves. If there is anything that we have a right in and1205should be able to control, it's the gifts that God gave us, the1206voices that we have, the image that we have. And for that to be1207taken from you is devastating both for the individual and1208obviously for the industry itself, which is built on these very1209voices.1210    Senator Coons. Ms. Carlos, if I might, I just want to thank1211you for YouTube's partnership in getting to the place where you1212support NO FAKES. Other tech companies haven't come forward. I1213would be interested in what you might say or encourage me to1214say to the Metas or TikToks of the world about why they should1215support this bill, even though it imposes new obligations on1216them.1217    And some have argued that NO FAKES might show legitimate1218speech by incentivizing platforms to over-remove content out of1219fear of being sued. How does YouTube think about balancing its1220obligations under this bill with its First Amendment1221obligations to users?1222    Ms. Carlos. Thank you for the question, Senator. As we1223mentioned, YouTube largely supports this bill because we see1224the incredible opportunity of AI, but we also recognize those1225harms, and we believe that AI needs to be deployed responsibly.1226    I believe Mr. Glazier mentioned during his opening1227statement that the NO FAKES Act does carry First Amendment1228exemptions: parody, satire, newsworthiness. And that is one of1229the reasons that we felt comfortable endorsing this bill. We1230are, at the end of the day, an open platform, and we believe1231that a variety of viewpoints can succeed on YouTube. So those1232would be some of the things that I would share with you to1233share with those other companies, but I cannot speak directly1234on behalf of why they may or may not choose to endorse the1235bill.1236    Senator Coons. Understood. Thank you. And thank you all for1237your testimony today. Thank you.1238    Chair Blackburn. Senator Hawley, you are recognized for 51239minutes.1240    Senator Hawley. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thanks to1241all of the witnesses for being here.1242    Ms. Carlos, if I could just start with you. You are here on1243behalf of YouTube, is that right?1244    Ms. Carlos. That is correct.1245    Senator Hawley. Can you tell me, why is it that YouTube has1246monetized videos that teach people how to generate pornographic1247deepfakes of women? Why does that happen on your platform?1248    Ms. Carlos. Thank you for the question. Protecting our1249users is one of our top priorities. My general expertise is in1250music policy, so I am not in the best position to answer that1251question, but I am happy to followup with you.1252    Senator Hawley. Do you know how many such videos there are1253out there that are--these are monetized videos now on YouTube.1254    Ms. Carlos. I am not aware of that number. I can say that1255our community policies do not allow that type of content on our1256platform.1257    Senator Hawley. Well, Forbes magazine just reported that1258YouTube has in fact promoted over 100 YouTube videos with1259millions of views that showcase AI deepfake porn and include1260tutorials on how to make deepfake porn, particularly porn that1261targets young women. Do you have any idea how much money1262YouTube has made off of this monetization?1263    Ms. Carlos. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I1264do not have detail on this specific news article. I am happy to1265followup with you and the Committee.1266    Senator Hawley. So you don't have any idea of how many ad1267dollars YouTube has made off of this?1268    Ms. Carlos. I do not.1269    Senator Hawley. Are you aware that one of these websites1270that was promoted by YouTube in these videos was later cited in1271a criminal prosecution for AI sexual abuse material--let me be1272more specific--generating AI sexual abuse material involving1273children?1274    Ms. Carlos. Thank you again for the question, Senator. As1275we mentioned earlier, YouTube has endorsed the TAKE IT DOWN1276Act, and we take these issues very seriously. Again, I will1277notify that I represent music policy and do not have the1278information to give you a fulsome response during today's1279hearing.1280    Senator Hawley. Well, so let me ask you this then. If a1281teenage girl's face ends up in an AI porn video on your1282platform, what does YouTube do about it? What is her recourse1283right now? What can she do to get some recompense, get some1284restitution?1285    Ms. Carlos. After over a year ago, we updated our privacy1286policy so that anybody who believes that their voice or1287likeness is being used without their authorization on our1288platform can submit a request for removal.1289    Senator Hawley. A request for removal. Is there some policy1290in getting reimbursement for any profits the company may have1291made, again, if these videos are monetized? I mean, does the1292victim get a share of anything?1293    Ms. Carlos. I am not aware of those policies. I would have1294to followup with you, Senator.1295    Senator Hawley. Why is it that the enforcement of YouTube's1296own policy here seems to only happen after videos go viral? Is1297there a reason for that?1298    Ms. Carlos. I do not have the answer to that question to1299you.1300    Senator Hawley. Do you know how many AI-generated deepfake1301videos or deepfake content is removed before a victim1302complains? Does the victim have to complain before YouTube does1303anything?1304    Ms. Carlos. Again, my specialty is in music policy. I do1305understand that we use technology such as AI to search for that1306content. And when it is in violation of our policies, we will1307remove it.1308    Senator Hawley. Let me ask you about this. YouTube training1309data, has YouTube provided data for use in Google's Gemini or1310other AI training programs?1311    Ms. Carlos. YouTube does provide data in Google training1312data in accordance with our agreements.1313    Senator Hawley. So if an artist uploads music to YouTube,1314does the company use that music to train AI models?1315    Ms. Carlos. As I mentioned, we do share data in accordance1316with our agreements. I can't speak to the specifics of any1317individual agreement.1318    Senator Hawley. Well, so how are people like Ms. McBride1319protected? I mean, so if you are an artist and you put any1320content on YouTube, does that mean that it is just free range?1321I mean, they can do whatever you want with it?1322    Ms. Carlos. Again, it goes down to the terms of our1323agreement. I will say that we have forged deep partnerships1324with the music industry. We came out of the gate with forming1325AI music principles with the music industry and are continuing1326to experiment with them to see how AI can best benefit their1327creative process.1328    Senator Hawley. So are there privacy protections? You are1329telling me YouTube has in place privacy protections for1330artists?1331    Ms. Carlos. They apply to all individuals on our platform.1332    Senator Hawley. Oh, so this is the click wrap scenario.1333This is in order to watch cute dog videos or whatever, you have1334got to click the ``I consent'' and that wraps in--you basically1335give consent for your stuff to be used?1336    Ms. Carlos. There are all different types of various1337agreements, but our terms of service are included in that batch1338of agreements.1339    Senator Hawley. I guess my question is, where are users1340told about their privacy protections if they have any, and1341where do they explicitly consent?1342    Ms. Carlos. They agree to our terms of service, and we also1343have our privacy policy available on the web.1344    Senator Hawley. Okay. So that is the click wrap. So in1345other words, if you come onto YouTube, you want to use it, you1346click, you got to click through. So you click it, and there,1347you basically agreed to allow YouTube to give your content to1348AI and allow them to train it without any further consent. Is1349that basically it?1350    Ms. Carlos. Again, we implement our policies in terms of1351our agreement are what govern what goes into our training.1352    Senator Hawley. Well, and I am asking you the content of1353that agreement. So in other words, if I am an artist and I1354upload something to YouTube and yes, sure, I have clicked the1355button that says, yes, I want to be able to use YouTube, are1356you telling me that I don't have any further recourse? If1357YouTube then goes and gives the information to AI models and1358systems, there is nothing further I can do, or am I missing1359something?1360    Ms. Carlos. If it is in accordance with our agreements, we1361will share that data.1362    Senator Hawley. Yes, that seems like a big problem to me.1363That seems like a huge, huge problem to me. And the fact that1364YouTube is monetizing these kinds of videos seems like a huge,1365huge problem to me.1366    I am glad you are here today. I wish there were more tech1367companies here today, but we have got to do more. I mean,1368YouTube, I am sure, is making billions of dollars off of this.1369The people who are losing are the artists and the creators and1370the teenagers whose lives are upended. We got to give1371individuals powerful enforceable rights in their images, in1372their property, in their lives back again, or this is just1373never going to stop.1374    Thank you, Madam Chair.1375    Chair Blackburn. Thank you. And that is the reason we have1376the NO FAKES bill, and we are trying to push it across the1377finish line.1378    I would like to offer a second round. Senator Klobuchar, do1379you have additional questions?1380    Senator Klobuchar. Very, very short. I know that Senator1381Coons has asked some of my questions about just people's1382personal experience with this. I guess I would ask you, Mr.1383Glazier, I am not sure you were asked about this. Do you agree1384that using copyrighted materials to create copycat content1385undermines the value of the music created by artists and could1386chill creation of new art?1387    Mr. Glazier. Absolutely. You know, if you are able to copy1388copyrighted material for any purpose without consent, you are1389basically allowing the person who is copying to make the money1390and to do with it what they want, but not the creator who is1391supposed to actually control it and who made it to be1392compensated for it and to control its exploitation. It is the1393very opposite of what the Constitution calls for in creating1394intellectual property.1395    Senator Klobuchar. Very good. One last question.1396    Chair Blackburn. Sure, go ahead.1397    Senator Klobuchar. This is the last one on the consumer1398education issue that was raised. Thank you. I am sure you all1399care about it, but Mr. Brookman, so while we should not place1400the burden solely on consumers to protect themselves from AI1401scams, I don't think that is going to work very well. What1402steps should Congress take to help educate consumers when it1403comes to AI literacy and the like? I think it is something we1404could have some agreement on.1405    Mr. Brookman. Yes, I think spending the money for a public1406awareness campaign is, I think, a really good idea. I think1407people, you know, hear stories of friends of friends who it has1408happened to, but a lot of people just have no idea that the1409things they see online, the things they see on Facebook are1410just not real. So in addition to laws----1411    Senator Klobuchar. You know one that says I am the fourth1412richest woman in the world now?1413    Mr. Brookman. Oh, congratulations.1414    [Laughter.]1415    Senator Klobuchar. Yes, that is just this week. I am sorry.1416I don't want to exaggerate. America.1417    [Laughter.]1418    Senator Klobuchar. And then people try to defend me by1419sending out the list of the top 10 richest with like Oprah, and1420I always think it is kind of sad that I am nowhere near it. But1421yes, that is the latest thing that is out there.1422    [Laughter.]1423    Senator Klobuchar. Go on, Mr. Brookman.1424    Mr. Brookman. Yes, training people to be aware of it, to1425think about it, just to, you know, watch out for social1426engineering attacks, false, you know, calls for urgency. You1427know, the deepfake voice right now is usually good for a little1428while, but it is getting better, right, and it is going to1429continue to get better. So one idea is, you know, having a1430family safe word, right, a word that only you and your family1431know that the scammer can't get. But like they have access to a1432lot of personal data about us, so we are all vulnerable. The1433numbers are going up dramatically, so just like teaching1434people. Like I said, it is a shame we have to teach people to1435do this, but it is the world we live in.1436    Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Thank you.1437    Thank you, Senator Blackburn.1438    Chair Blackburn. Senator Coons.1439    Senator Coons. Ms. Price, I was glad to see President Trump1440sign the TAKE IT DOWN Act earlier this week. Why is NO FAKES1441still necessary if TAKE IT DOWN is on the books?1442    Ms. Price. Thank you, Senator. No fakes is still necessary1443because it provides a way for victims to bring a civil lawsuit1444on their own behalf, and so there is an importance to having,1445yes, on the one hand, the criminal piece, the criminal law1446accountability and the required take down under the FTC, but1447then, of course, the victims being able to bring their own1448lawsuit if they wish to do that. It is more effective for1449deterrence to have multiple things.1450    Senator Coons. Ms. Carlos, why did YouTube come to the1451table? You could have just made it a whole lot harder for the1452bill to move forward if you didn't make concessions and agree1453to be a part of advocating for the bill.1454    Ms. Carlos. Thank you for the question and thank you for1455including us in that round of stakeholders. So YouTube sits in1456a very unique kind of universe. You know, we not only have our1457users and music partners and media partners, but we also have1458creators. And that is one area where this idea of digital1459replicas can cause real world harm. So in addition to1460supporting NO FAKES, which gives them the individual right to1461remove content, not just from YouTube, but from other1462platforms, we are continuing to invest in new technology, which1463we refer to as likeness ID, which will allow our participating1464members and our pilot to have their face and voice scanned and1465will be able to match across our platform. So we are continuing1466to invest in this technology as we see it is a top issue.1467    Senator Coons. Thank you. Thank you very much, Senator1468Blackburn, Ranking Member Klobuchar.1469    Chair Blackburn. Thank you, Senator Coons.1470    Mr. Glazier, I want you to touch on contracts. We have had1471quite a discussion this week on copyright.1472    And as artists negotiate these contracts for their name,1473their image, their likeness, recently SAG-AFTRA made a move in1474some of their negotiations on this. But talk a little bit about1475the importance of having a federal standard as it relates to1476standard contract law.1477    Mr. Glazier. Yes, this goes to the very essence of consent1478for the artist. And so not only does the NO FAKES Act give1479control and consent to the individual about the use of their1480voice and the use of their likeness, it also imposes some1481guardrails around the length of those contracts, what those1482contracts mean when the person is alive, what that means after1483the person passes. And it also has special provisions that1484protect minors who might enter into contracts that includes1485parents and guardians and also court authority.1486    So it does a very good job of preventing abuse while giving1487the power to the individual whose voice is at stake and whose1488image is at stake in being able to license it.1489    Chair Blackburn. Thank you so much.1490    Ms. Price, I want you to submit to us--you can do this in1491writing. When we look at the physical world and the statutes1492that exist for protecting individuals from some of the harms1493that you have listed today and the importance of TAKE IT DOWN1494and the importance of NO FAKES, but we don't have all of those1495criminal statutes that transfer to the virtual space. And I1496would like for you to give me a summary of your thoughts on1497that. Your testimony is expansive and helpful. And as I said,1498we have submitted that whole testimony.1499    Mr. Brookman, we have submitted your entire testimony also,1500and we thank you for that.1501    But I would like to have just a little bit more from you on1502that issue of those protections. We have talked about NO FAKES1503and the COPIED Act and KOSA. We talk often about this1504difference, and you touched on it, and I would like to have1505something more expansive.1506    With that, we have no further Members present and no1507further questions. I will remind you all that Members have 51508days to submit questions for the record, and then you are going1509to have 10 days to return those answers to us.1510    I thank you all. Our witnesses have been wonderful today.1511We appreciate your testimony for the record.1512    And with that, the hearing is adjourned.1513    [Whereupon, at 3:52 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]1514    [Additional material submitted for the record follows.]15151516    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]15171518                                 [all]15191520                            A P P E N D I X15211522The following submissions are available at:15231524  https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-119shrg61677/pdf/CHRG-1525    119shrg1526    61677-add1.pdf15271528Submitted by Chair Klobuchar:15291530 Digital Media Association (DIMA), the voice of music1531  streaming, statement............................................     215321533                                 [all]