Business meeting to consider S.222, to amend the Richard B. Russell National School Lunch Act to allow schools that participate in the school lunch program to serve whole milk; to be immediately followed by a hearing to examine the nomination of Michael Boren, of Idaho, to be Under Secretary of Agriculture for Natural Resources and Environment.

1[Senate Hearing 119-98]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                                 ______56                                                         S. Hrg. 119-9878 NOMINATION OF MICHAEL BOREN TO BE UNDER SECRETARY OF AGRICULTURE FOR9                   NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENT1011=======================================================================1213                                HEARING1415                               before the1617                       COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE,18                        NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY1920                          UNITED STATES SENATE2122                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2324                             FIRST SESSION2526                               __________2728                              June 3, 20252930                               __________3132                       Printed for the use of the33           Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry3435 GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT3637                  Available on http://www.govinfo.gov/3839                         ______4041             U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE42 60-657 PDF          WASHINGTON : 20254344           COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY4546                    JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas, Chairman47MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky            AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota48JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota            MICHAEL F. BENNET, Colorado49JONI ERNST, Iowa                     TINA SMITH, Minnesota50CINDY HYDE-SMITH, Mississippi        RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois51ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas               CORY BOOKER, New Jersey52TOMMY TUBERVILLE, Alabama            BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico53JAMES C. JUSTICE, West Virginia      RAPHAEL WARNOCK, Georgia54CHARLES GRASSLEY, Iowa               PETER WELCH, Vermont55JOHN THUNE, South Dakota             JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania56DEB FISCHER, Nebraska                ADAM SCHIFF, California57JERRY MORAN, Kansas                  ELISSA SLOTKIN, Michigan5859               Fitzhugh Elder IV, Majority Staff Director60                    Jessica L. Williams, Chief Clerk61                Lauren Santabar, Minority Staff Director62                 Chu-Yuan Hwang, Minority Chief Counsel63                            C O N T E N T S6465                              ----------6667                         Tuesday, June 3, 20256869                                                                   Page7071Hearing:7273Nomination of Michael Boren to be Under Secretary of Agriculture74  for75  Natural Resources and Environment..............................     17677                              ----------7879                    STATEMENTS PRESENTED BY SENATORS8081Boozman, Hon. John, U.S. Senator from the State of Arkansas......     182Klobuchar, Hon. Amy, U.S. Senator from the State of Minnesota....     28384                                WITNESS8586Boren, Michael, of Idaho, to be Under Secretary of Agriculture87  for Natural Resources and Environment..........................     688                              ----------8990                                APPENDIX9192Prepared Statements:93    Boren, Michael...............................................    189495Document(s) Submitted for the Record:96Boozman, Hon. John:97    National Cattlemen's Beef Association in support of Michael98      Boren, letter of support...................................    2299    Statement for the record submitted for the record by Mike100      Crapo......................................................    25101Marshall, Hon. Roger:102    Statement submitted for the record by Roger Marshall.........    32103Fetterman, Hon. John:104    Statement submitted for the record by John Fetterman.........    33105Risch, Hon. James:106    Introduction for Michael Boren submitted for the record by107      Hon. James Risch...........................................    34108109Boren, Michael:110    Committee questionnaire, Office of Government Ethics111      Executive Branch Personnel Public Financial Disclosure112      Report and 5-day letter filed by Michael Boren.............    36113114Question and Answer:115Boren, Michael:116    Written response to questions from Hon. Amy Klobuchar........   136117    Written response to questions from Hon. Tommy Tuberville.....   138118    Written response to questions from Hon. Michael Bennet.......   139119    Written response to questions from Hon. Cory Booker..........   141120    Written response to questions from Hon. Ben Ray Lujan........   143121    Written response to questions from Hon. Raphael Warnock......   143122    Written response to questions from Hon. Peter Welch..........   146123    Written response to questions from Hon. Adam Schiff..........   148124125 NOMINATION OF MICHAEL BOREN TO BE UNDER SECRETARY OF AGRICULTURE FOR126                   NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENT127128                              ----------129130                         TUESDAY, JUNE 3, 2025131132                                        U.S. Senate133          Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry134                                                    Washington, DC.135    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 3:15 p.m., in136Room 328A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. John Boozman,137Chairman of the Committee, presiding.138    Present: Senators Boozman [presiding], Hoeven, Ernst, Hyde-139Smith, Marshall, Tuberville, Justice, Grassley, Fischer,140Klobuchar, Bennet, Smith, Warnock, Welch, Fetterman, Schiff,141and Slotkin.142    Also present: Senator Risch.143144   STATEMENT OF HON. BOOZMAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF145 ARKANSAS, CHAIRMAN, U.S. COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, NUTRITION,146                          AND FORESTRY147148    Chairman Boozman. Okay. Good afternoon. Today, we welcome149Mr. Michael Boren of Idaho to the Committee as we consider his150nomination to be Under Secretary for the Natural Resources and151Environment, or NRE, mission area at the Department of152Agriculture. The forest and grasslands of the United States153Forest Service serve a variety of functions, wildlife habitat,154outdoor recreation, oil, gas, minerals, and timber. I look155forward to hearing from Mr. Boren on how he views this156multiple-use mandate for the Forest Service.157    I am concerned that recent years have seen a reduction in158the priority for timber. However, I am pleased with some of the159actions President Trump and USDA have taken to try and address160this problem. Utilizing our forest to sequester carbon also161requires responsibility by harvesting timber and properly162managing our forests, which provide an almost unlimited163resource, resulting in a win-win for everyone. When timber is164harvested and ultimately stored in lumber and other end165products, that carbon is preserved almost permanently.166    Perhaps an even better way our forests can serve our167Nation's environmental powerhouse is by preventing and168mitigating future catastrophic wildfires. There is a statistic169I know we have all heard before, but it is still astounding to170me. California wildfires in 2020 released twice as many171greenhouse emissions than the state reduced between 2003 and1722019. Properly managing our Nation's forests can do more to173prevent carbon emissions than almost anything else we can do in174Congress.175    Thankfully, this Committee is currently considering the Fix176Our Forests Act, and we hope to move this forward in the very177near future and get this legislation signed into law. FOFA will178provide the right tools and processes for our federal land179management agencies, including the U.S. Forest Service, to180mitigate the frequency and intensity of catastrophic wildfires.181    If confirmed as the Under Secretary of the USDA mission182area that oversees the Forest Service, the Committee will look183to you to quickly implement FOFA and follow in congressional184intent. Your leadership and background will be critical in185ensuring the Forest Service is efficient and effective in186carrying out the critical job of the mission area. Doing this187successfully will ensure that all Americans can enjoy the188benefits of our Nation's forests and grasslands for years to189come.190    I expect that Congress and this Committee will be able to191work with Mr. Boren and rely on his professionalism and candor192as we conduct necessary oversight over the multi-layered193programs and efforts under his purview. We expect you and your194team will be prompt in our requests and work with the Committee195to provide needed information and technical assistance. We will196trust your experience and expertise to steward our national197forests over the course of your time, should you be confirmed198as Under Secretary.199    Mr. Boren, I want to again congratulate you on your200nomination to be Under Secretary for Natural Resources and201Environment at USDA, and we look forward to hearing from you202today.203    I now turn to our Ranking Member, Senator Klobuchar, for204her opening statement.205206  STATEMENT OF HON. KLOBUCHAR, U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF207                           MINNESOTA208209    Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much, and thank you,210Senator Risch. Thank you for coming here and to the nominee as211well.212    I spoke with Mr. Boren. I appreciated that very much. I213would like to welcome his family, including his wife, Joan, and214his father, Robert Boren, and two of his children and daughter-215in-law, who I understand are here.216    Mr. Boren, if confirmed, you will oversee the U.S. Forest217Service, which is, as we all know, responsible for managing 193218million acres of forest and grassland. You are being considered219for this position at a critical time for the Forest Service. As220the Chairman mentioned, the wildfires in California, which, of221course, created just unimaginable harm. I will note sometimes222there are smaller fires as well that can quickly get out of223control, as you and I talked about, Mr. Boren. I have224appreciated the Forest Service's work, as I told Secretary225Rollins, working with the State of Minnesota in just the last226few weeks to contain fires in northern Minnesota that quickly227spread to acres and acres. We currently have fires in Canada228that are not really close to our state in terms of burning229forests, but are creating huge smoke issues in a lot of parts230of the United States with more to come.231    The Forest Service has an important multiple-use mandate to232manage lands for timber, recreation, watershed health, and233more. USDA's and Interior's focus on wildlife suppression and234prevention are very important right now.235    A critical part of reducing wildfire risk is the Forest236Service and its partners carrying out more forest management,237and I recognize the USDA recently released an active forest238management strategy, and I welcome its focus on increasing the239use of Good Neighbor Authority, a bill that I had worked on for240years and other partnership agreements.241    Mr. Boren, if confirmed, you will be responsible for242implementing these recent directives and for responding to243wildfires. I do remain concerned about the Forest Service's244capacity to carry out the important work to reduce wildlife245risk and severity. The Forest Service has reportedly lost more246than 4,000 employees since January, and my office has received247reports of Forest Service contracts having been canceled and248delayed, including some projects focused on reduction of249wildfire risk. Workforce reductions and disruptions in funding250and contracts raise questions about the Forest Service's251ability to balance its many responsibilities. These are252concerns I have raised in several communications with the USDA253and need clarity from the agency.254    The Administration's proposed budget that just came out255also contributes to the uncertainty. The budget makes deep cuts256in National Forest Service system funding, popular programs257that strengthen state and private sector capacity for managing258forests and forestry research. This is confusing, following259recent testimony to this Committee from the Forest Service on260the need to rely on state and private partners.261    The budget also recommends moving wildland fire operations262to the Department of Interior from the USDA's Forest Service.263While I am open to reviewing the details of this proposal, I am264concerned it would hurt the Forest Service's ability to execute265wildfire mitigation and other land management work.266    Mr. Boren, these proposals raise questions about the Forest267Service's approach to overseeing the wildfire crisis that we268are seeing in so many states, as my colleague Senator Bennet269knows from his home State of Colorado and managing Forest270Service lands. I look forward to hearing more about how, if271confirmed, you will work to ensure the Forest Service addresses272these challenges and how you will ensure our national forests273remain a place for all Americans to enjoy.274    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back my one minute to275Senator Risch.276    Senator Risch. I will take it. Thank you.277    Chairman Boozman. Senator Hoeven wanted to know what job we278were confirming Senator Risch for.279    [Laughter.]280    Senator Risch. You should be so lucky to vote.281    [Laughter.]282    Chairman Boozman. Today, we are more than pleased to have283our good friend and colleague, Senator Risch, with us, who284truly is a champion of agriculture in rural America throughout285this country. He will be introducing our nominee, Mr. Michael286Boren. Thank you for being here again, Senator Risch.287    Please proceed.288    Senator Risch. Well, thank you very much. It is good to get289even with you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to yourself and the290Ranking Member for having me here today.291    I think you have introduced more people than I have. I have292got more nominees in my Committee than any of the other293Committees, and I think you have introduced more of them than294anybody else. I was thinking of getting you your own chair in295the committee room.296    Thank you. Thank you for being here. It is a great honor to297do this for a lot of different reasons. Obviously, forestry is298a passion of mine. My undergraduate degree was in forestry and299forest management. We have not had Idaho fingerprints on the300Forest Service since I was Governor. When I was Governor, one301of my classmates, actually, was Chief of the Forest Service. We302are going to have a Chief of the Forest Service from Idaho and,303of course, this position now from Idaho.304    It is so important because people, particularly if you live305east of the Mississippi, it is hard to fathom that our state is306owned by 2/3 by the Federal Government. Two out of every three307acres in the State of Idaho is owned by the Federal Government.308It is an entirely different ball game doing business there,309commerce and everything else. Particularly when the state has310cut its teeth on mining and on forestry and those kinds of311things, it is very difficult to operate sometimes with the312Federal Government. They are not always the best neighbors in313the world. Most federal employees are good people, hardworking314people, well-intentioned people, but there are some that make315being a neighbor with the Federal Government challenging.316    Turning to the nominee, President Trump has picked, I317think, the right person for this job. If you go into his318background, obviously, he has been a very successful person in319the business sector. Beyond that, he has considerable roots in320the forest. He started as a teenager working with the Forest321Service and doing business with the Forest Service. It followed322his family. His father had quite a lot of dealings with the323Forest Service, which he will talk about in his opening324statement, as did his wife's grandfather, I believe it was. He325comes at it from a couple different ways.326    One of the things I am sure that you are going to ask him327about is there has been a lot of media about disagreements he328has had with the Federal Government. I can tell you that in329Idaho, where we have all this federal land, there are pieces of330ground called inholdings. If you are from the east of the331Mississippi, you have never heard of the word inholdings. When332you are from out west, as a lot of our Members are, they know333what an inholding is. I can tell you, most federal people, when334you talk to them, will not concede that they are not very--335Senator, do not you want to hear the rest of this?336    [Laughter.]337    Senator Grassley. Sorry. There is a meeting I got though.338    Senator Risch. I have listened to you over these years, and339I cannot understand----340    [Laughter.]341    Senator Risch. No, no, no, no, no.342    [Laughter.]343    Senator Risch. He takes things literally, you know.344    [Laughter.]345    Senator Risch. In any event, when you have inholdings,346usually the BLM (Bureau of Land Management) and the Forest347Service are not really happy with inholdings, and they are not348always the best neighbor. To be honest with you, I have never--349and I have dealt with these kind of problems when I was350Governor in my decades in the State Senate. I dealt with a lot351of people that had problems with the BLM and the Forest Service352who had inholdings. They were disputes that really should have353been resolved like good neighbors resolve them. Instead, they354turn into public debates, and it can be difficult and reaches a355fever pitch at times.356    I have never yet run into anybody that has an inholding--357and they are relatively common in the West. I have never run358into anybody that has an inholding property that has not had359some disagreement with their neighbor, the Federal Government.360I am sure you will want to ask him questions about this, and I361am sure he will explain these to you, but these are difficult362things, and he has a considerable amount of land that is not an363inholding. As I say, he will be able to explain to you the364disputes that he has had with the Federal Government on these.365    Look, this is the right guy for this job. I commend the366President of the United States for choosing him for this367particular position, and I would commend his nomination to you.368I know that you will look at this favorably and civilly when369you deal with him. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr.370Chairman.371    If I can be excused, please, I have got another meeting I372have to go to.373    Chairman Boozman. I guess we will let you go. Thank you----374    Senator Risch. Senator Klobuchar, you are not going to375cross-examine me if that is what you think.376    [Laughter.]377    Senator Klobuchar. Looking so inviting.378    Senator Risch. Yes, I know.379    Chairman Boozman. Thank you for being here.380    Senator Risch. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.381    Chairman Boozman. We know you are busy. Thank you so much.382    Okay. I will now administer the oath and then begin with383witness testimony. You will have five minutes. Please stand and384raise your right hand.385    Chairman Boozman. Do you swear or affirm that the386statements you are about to provide is the truth, the whole387truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?388    Mr. Boren. Yes.389    Chairman Boozman. Do you agree that, if confirmed, you will390respond to requests to appear and testify before any duly391constituted Committee of the Senate?392    Mr. Boren. Yes.393    Chairman Boozman. Thank you, Mr. Boren. You are now394recognized for your statement.395396     STATEMENT OF MICHAEL BOREN, TO BE UNDER SECRETARY OF397       AGRICULTURE FOR NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENT398399    Mr. Boren. Thank you, Chairman Boozman, Ranking Member400Klobuchar, and Members of the Committee. It is a real honor to401be here today to appear before you. I have had a very pleasant402opportunity to meet some of you in your offices and learn some403good things about your states and about what you are concerned404with.405    If confirmed, it will be a privilege for me to spend time406working with you as you exercise your responsibilities and407authorities and oversight with the Forest Service and the408Department of Agriculture. I am thankful to President Donald409Trump and to Secretary Brooke Rollins for the trust they have410placed in me in this nomination. I think they are very411inspiring people, and I hope you will give me the opportunity412to work for them.413    May I introduce my wife and partner of 41 years? It has414been a really interesting ride. Meeting Joan at a church dance415changed my life. It made it harder; it made it so much more416worthwhile, and it gave me so much more reason to be the best417that I could be.418    Joan and I have--we have a life of adventure. It is so many419times we look at each other at the end of a day and say,420truthfully, just another best day ever. We have had some great421days. We have had hard days, and they have been great days.422    My father, Robert Boren, a retired professor and Forest423Service employee and consultant with the Forest Service for424many, many years, is with us today. I am really pleased to have425him here. He spent many days in the forest since 1937 when he426first got to the forest.427    My mother died in 2012 after 54 years of marriage to my428father. She was a really great example to me. She was a true429pioneer, and she spent her life serving other people, and I am430glad to have known her and to have been her son--to be her son.431    Joan and I have three children. Two of them are able to be432here today, Jack and Amanda. Jack's wife, Ashley, is here as433well, and Amanda is here with her daughter, my granddaughter,434Stevie, one of nine grandchildren that we have had, one a year435for nine years, so it has been quite a ride there as well.436    I love my grandchildren and my children, and I will do437everything I can to preserve the beauty and the opportunity and438the freedom that is America for them. That is why I am here439today, among other reasons, but I am here to serve my children440and your children and grandchildren.441    I am thankful to be supported by many friends and family442members. Some of them are here today, and many more of them are443watching live, and I am glad to have their support.444    The United States Forest Service has always been a part of445my life. I remember some of my earliest memories are when my446father was working for the Clayton Ranger District in central447Idaho in the summers. He spent long hours there. There was too448much to do and too few employees. I know that seems surprising449that we are back to that today, but I think it has maybe always450been the case. Somehow, he and the ranger got it done. I have451to say the ranger to me was larger than life. That was the452really important person in our county, and I really looked up453to him.454    Later in his life, my father worked for the Forest Service455and the Interagency Fire Center, which is based in Boise,456Idaho, as a consultant, and I had a lot of time to learn things457from him about that as well. I feel like I have a pretty good458grounding in some of the challenges and opportunities of the459Forest Service.460    As Senator Risch mentioned, my brother Dave and I worked as461teenagers. We had a business buying logs from the Forest462Service and cutting them up into posts and poles and selling463them to neighboring ranches. That was so successful that the464next year we decided to make more money, we would be GS-1 level465employees of the Forest Service and plant trees, and that went466pretty well. We have some experience there.467    I have accessed the forest in almost every way you can468imagine, on foot, on horseback, skis, snowshoes, snowcats,469snowmobiles, every kind of conveyance from motorcycles to ATVs470to UTVs, four-wheel drives, and motorized and non-motorized471boats, and especially aircraft and helicopters. I can tell you472it has given me a real appreciation for the difficulty of473maintaining and increasing and improving access to the forest474for the general public. This is a very important issue for me475because I believe that when people go to the forest, it is a476spiritual experience, it is an awakening, and it is a patriotic477experience for them, and I want to make sure they have that478opportunity.479    My wife's grandfather, Leonard Berg, who Senator Risch480mentioned, worked for the Forest Service his whole career and481ended his career here in Washington, DC, and I really admired482him. I also have recognized his abilities and strengths and483integrity in many of the employees of the Forest Service with484whom I hope to be able to work.485    It looks like I am about out of time. I could tell you more486about my career and my background, but I feel that I am487uniquely positioned to support the Forest Service in its role,488and I think that it will be a blessing to work for the Forest489Service if you confirm me to this position. Thank you.490    [The prepared statement of Mr. Boren can be found on pages49118-19 in the appendix.]492    Chairman Boozman. Thank you. Before I ask my questions, I493would like to add letters in support of Mr. Boren's nomination494into the record, as well as a statement from Senator Crapo, who495has a conflict. He is, as you know, Chairman of Finance and is496busy right now.497    Without objection, so ordered.498    [The letters can be found on pages 22-31 in the appendix.]499    Chairman Boozman. I will go ahead and start.500    Due to the rise of catastrophic fires across the United501States, federal and state land management agencies and private502forestry owners recognize the need to increase the pace and503scale of hazardous fuels reductions on federal lands and cross-504boundary landscapes.505    Mr. Boren, what is your view of Forest Service's role on506forest management tools like timber production that can prevent507catastrophic wildfires? How can the Forest Service proactively508manage our forests to promote wildfire resiliency?509    Mr. Boren. The Forest Service--thank you, Senator, for that510question and for having me here.511    The Forest Service has many tools available to it to manage512the forests, to sustain their health and diversity and513productivity, and I think we should use all of them, in514particular the tools relating to timber production, which are515important not only for making the forest more healthy and more516resilient and fire-resistant but also for revenue to the517government of the United States and therefore its people, and518also to be able to use those organizations to take care of some519of our trails and roads, so it is really important to produce520timber.521    It is also important to reduce fuel accumulation where522timber is not the best way to do it or to do it in conjunction523with that, and I feel like that is something that is really524well done in coordination with timber producers and other525groups, and we can look in particular to state forestry526organizations to see some of the good things that they have527done.528    Chairman Boozman. Very good. Across the Western United529States, the checkerboard pattern of land ownership between530public, private, and tribal landowners creates confusion and531limits active management of the forest. These limitations can532negatively impact our national forests. How do you view these533cross-boundary issues, and how can the Forest Service engage534with other public and private land managers?535    Mr. Boren. Well, as a private landowner, I know the536checkerboard nature of the West is difficult because it does537not matter what you do on your own land in terms of noxious538weeds reduction and prevention or in terms of fire prevention,539your neighbors need to be involved. I think there have been540some really good things that you in Congress have done over the541past few years along those lines. I know there is an542interesting checkerboard project for fuels reduction in543California today with Sierra Pacific Industries and possibly544with other companies that is a good example of how the public545and private landowners can get together to deal with fuels546reduction and other methods of mitigation, and I would think we547could do a lot more of that.548    Chairman Boozman. Timber sales from national forests549benefit many stakeholders by mitigating wildfires, preventing550pests and disease outbreaks, and supporting the economy of551local communities. Unfortunately, many mills are struggling due552to fluctuations in the amount of timber from our forests and553the demand for forest products. What is your view on the value554of timber sales when it comes to supporting rural economies and555forest management, and what can the Forest Service play in556supporting mills, which is with a steady supply of timber?557    Mr. Boren. I have seen firsthand the problems that come558with lack of timber production and the things that happen to559rural communities when they lose a timber mill, a lumber mill,560and I realize that it is very difficult these days to add new561lumber mills to replace the old ones. One of the reasons is the562cost is really high. It costs maybe $300 million to build a563good, successful lumber mill, and nobody is willing to do that564if they do not have a guarantee of production to be able to565maintain their mill for a long period of time.566    While it is very important to support our rural communities567by producing more timber, by selling more timber, if there is568no one to buy it, if there is no one to process it, you cannot569have that mill. You cannot build those economies. We need to do570more than just say we are going to produce more timber. We need571to encourage long-term contracts with mill owners so that they572have a reason to believe that they can invest $300 million in a573mill and make a living out of it over the long term. We need to574work with other entities, state forests, for example, and575private forests to help find ways to grow our rural economies576by providing them a steady supply of timber.577    Chairman Boozman. Senator Klobuchar.578    Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much, Senator Boozman.579    I think I will start with the staffing issue I raised in580the opening just with the thousands of employees that have left581and terminated. There was deferred resignation plans and then582the White House's direction to federal agencies to plan for583additional layoffs.584    Mr. Boren, how will you ensure resignations and585terminations will not affect the ability of the Forest Service586to prevent and address the dangers of wildfires?587    Mr. Boren. Thank you, Senator Klobuchar. That is a very588important point. We certainly need to have an appropriate level589of staff to fulfill our mission.590    I have not had an experience with the Forest Service yet591where I understand what the staffing levels are and how they592are being applied, but I am very familiar with resource-593constrained organizations, having worked in one and for one594that I started for many years, where we started with a very595small amount of money and never really had enough to do what we596needed to do. I certainly would not say that that guarantees597that I will be able to figure it out immediately at the Forest598Service, but I know that we have to live with the resources599that we receive, and we will find a way to do that.600    Senator Klobuchar. Okay. The present budget proposes moving601wildland fire management outside of the USDA. This is a602significant responsibility of the Forest Service that would be603transferred to the Department of Interior, and I understand604some have questions about the impact on this on managing605wildfire responses. Could you talk about how this proposal606could affect the agency's fire mitigation work, like prescribed607burns, and how you will work with states, tribes, and employees608and other interested parties as this proposal is considered?609    Mr. Boren. I have questions, as you do. I do not fully610understand the proposal and how it is intended to work. I do611have a background through my father and through living in612Boise, Idaho, and visiting the Interagency Fire Center and613through being a firefighter and working with incident614management teams where it is very clear to me that cooperation615with other agencies and other organizations is the way to fight616fire. I am sure that if this transfer occurs, the Forest617Service will still be intimately involved, since that618organization is responsible for most of the federal forests and619a large chunk of grasslands and responsible for keeping them in620good condition.621    Senator Klobuchar. Exactly. Thank you. That is part of why622I am so worried about this. Thanks for mentioning that because,623as you acknowledge here, the Forest Service is charged with624managing forests and watersheds, wildlife habitat, and these625are responsibilities of the Forest Service. Could you very626quickly, because I want to get something else, mention what627policies or practices you would promote to balance these628multiple uses to ensure the long-term health of forests and629grasslands?630    Mr. Boren. I will try to be brief. That is a really big631question, Senator. Multiple use is super important. All of the632people in America own our forests and grasslands, and they all633have different ideas about how they should be used, and we need634to find ways to balance all of the uses--recreation, timber635production, clean air and water--which sometimes involves non-636production in areas, oil and gas and forage. There are lots of637things that we need to balance, and I--you know, we just need638to always be mindful of everyone else's position.639    I find that when we get into a negotiation--when I get into640a negotiation frequently, it is important to show--to learn641what the other person wants and not to worry too much about my642own personal needs.643    Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Senator Risch mentioned that you644had, as a landowner and has had some disagreements about645easements with the Forest Service near your Idaho ranch, and646could you talk about these disagreements briefly? You can647follow-up in writing. How will you respond to those that may648disagree with your positions or decisions, including employees649or members of the public?650    Mr. Boren. Thank you. Thank you for bringing that up. That651is a long conversation, potentially, but----652    Senator Klobuchar. Well, Senator Risch opened the door.653    Mr. Boren. He did.654    [Laughter.]655    Mr. Boren. He did, and he is aware of some things that have656happened that have been difficult for me and some that I felt657were oppressive because I have talked to him about those. I658think one of the important things to point out is that I do not659have disputes with the Forest Service. He did use that word,660but I would disagree with that. As a landowner, I have had661disagreements from time to time with the Forest Service.662Typically, they have been very aggressive at the beginning of663those disagreements. Eventually, when they got the facts and664when we talked through it and we had reasonable discussions, we665have always come around to a settlement that works for666everyone.667    To be very clear about easements, if I may just have a668moment, I--there is a scenic easement on a ranch that I live669on, and I have never had a violation or even a suggestion that670I violated--well, I have had one suggestion, but it was clear671that it did not happen, and it was retracted. I have not had672violations of that easement, ever.673    Senator Klobuchar. Okay. Just last, very quickly, will you674commit to not interfering with and, in fact, recusing yourself675from any existing or future matters involving properties that676you, your family members, or your friends own or are affiliated677with the Forest Service?678    Mr. Boren. Senator, I have had incredibly detailed679discussions with USDA ethics attorneys, who, by the way, are680amazing. I will commit to making sure they always know681everything about anything that could be a conflict of interest682that I can tell them and to always following their advice.683    Senator Klobuchar. Thank you.684    Chairman Boozman. Senator Hoeven.685    Senator Hoeven. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.686    Thanks for coming in and visiting with me earlier. One of687the things we talked about was access in the grasslands, and688that is incredibly important. You have been a rancher all your689life, although you have been involved in other pursuits as690well, obviously. You understand, I think, from a rancher's691perspective. Talk to me about the importance of access for692those ranchers that are in the grazing associations on the693grasslands.694    Mr. Boren. Senator, I have been involved in access ideas695and issues for much of my life. It is a really important part696of my life for people to have access to their properties and to697public land to be able to use that land appropriately. There698are often differences of opinion about how to approach that. My699opinion is that the Forest Service is the servant of the people700in managing the assets of the people, known as the national701forests and grasslands. We need to--we--if I happen to be702confirmed by you, the Forest Service should always remember703that it is a service organization for the benefit of the704people, today's people and future generations, and should be705careful to consider the importance of access to the forests or706access to people's grazing leases or grasslands as being of707paramount importance.708    Senator Hoeven. I am not sure how it works in every state,709but in our state that means we have to have access to the710section lines. Will you work with us to make sure that our711grazers have access to those section lines so they can access712their herds in the grasslands?713    Mr. Boren. I will commit to working with you to resolve714that issue. I cannot promise you that I will make sure it715happens, but I will do my best.716    Senator Hoeven. Okay. You understand the need for access717and the importance of access through the section lines, and you718are willing----719    Mr. Boren. It is extremely important, and I agree.720    Senator Hoeven. Okay. Grazing agreements, are you going to721make sure that grazing agreements for the ranchers out there722are fair, practical, and workable?723    Mr. Boren. Senator, yes.724    Senator Hoeven. Okay.725    Mr. Boren. I have experience with that, not with forest726grazing leases, but with state and BLM leases, and I know it is727very important for both sides to work together.728    Senator Hoeven. How about fire control? I mean, the729volunteer fire departments have a huge role in the grasslands730in terms of addressing fire. Most of it is these volunteer731firemen. Sometimes, though, the Federal Government will come in732and do prescribed burns when they should not, high winds or733whatever. Are you willing to work and make sure that that does734not happen, that the Federal Government is working with the735Forest Service, is working with the ranchers on the ground when736it comes to things like controlled burns and other issues?737    Mr. Boren. Senator Hoeven, thank you. That is an area that738is important to me. I have been involved with a volunteer fire739department and worked with the Forest Service on fires, and I740think it is very important to work together. It is very741important if you are ever going to do a prescribed burn to make742sure everyone knows about it. The other thing is I think we can743be a little more careful about how and when we do prescribed744burns.745    Senator Hoeven. Have you been out in the grasslands and746seen some of the landscapes where the prairie dogs have taken747over and it looks like the moon, lunar landscape?748    Mr. Boren. I have, Senator.749    Senator Hoeven. Do you think that is appropriate?750    Mr. Boren. I do not like it. I think there are solutions,751and we should pursue them.752    Senator Hoeven. Right. Just reasonable solutions like a753reasonable buffer so that if somebody has private land, they do754not have a prairie dog infestation that they cannot control.755That is not fair to individual ranchers or grazers, is it?756    Mr. Boren. I think the--yes, I think that is correct. That757should happen, and it is not fair. I think that it is the same758thing for prairie dogs as other infestations like weeds. There759should be a buffer zone.760    Senator Hoeven. I am glad you mentioned that. Weed control761is really important. We have got noxious weeds. The Assistant762Director at the Forest Service--or Deputy Director Chris French763has been really good about working with us on addressing764noxious weeds, which is a huge issue. One, I want to commend765him and ask for your help and your continued support in766addressing noxious weeds. I cannot imagine why everybody could767not agree that that just makes common sense.768    Mr. Boren. Senator, thank you. I will offer you my support,769and I agree it makes common sense. I will say that in my home770area, the Forest Service does a really good job of encouraging771ranchers to control the weeds on their own property, and I772think it is good to have that be reciprocal.773    Senator Hoeven. Yes, you said that just right. Thank you774very much.775    Chairman Boozman. Senator Bennet.776    Senator Bennet. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.777    Thank you, Mr. Boren, for being here. I appreciate it. I778know you grew up, you mentioned with your dad, working in the779Forest Service, and I know you have got exposure to the fire780risk that we are all dealing with. In Colorado, there is huge781amounts of concern about how dangerous things are.782    I have a lot of concern about what the purpose of the Trump783Administration's decision to move fire suppression out of the784Forest Service is meant to accomplish at a moment when the last785thing we need, I think, is to make it more confusing,786especially when thinking about the current wildfire season that787we are facing right now. It was not clear from your answer to788Senator Klobuchar whether you supported that change, whether789you--you said you had some questions of your own. I have some790questions. I wonder what questions you do have about how to do791it because I am not sure.792    I mean, I think maybe there is a philosophical view out793there in the world that separating fire suppression from794mitigation and from wildfire restoration, all that stuff, is a795good idea philosophically. On the ground, I am not sure,796especially in a world where people have come to work together797so well with local communities, volunteer fire departments, the798work that your dad did at the fire center out there. Could you799talk a little bit about that in this context and how you are800going to, when you become in charge of the Forest Service, the801degree to which you will pay attention to the question of802whether this is a good idea or not a good idea, I guess.803    Mr. Boren. Senator, thank you. I guess the answer is I am804certainly willing to look at that idea and consider it, and I805can understand on my own without getting into details or being806told by anyone in the Administration yet--and since I am not807there, I have not been--I can see reasons why it is a good idea808to have an agency that is focused on fire, where there is a809person at the head of the agency that can be held fully810responsible.811    To be clear, responsibility is a good thing. Consequences812are a good thing. They help shape our decisions. I can see813where there is maybe some value and hope in that, and that814might be part of what is driving it. I have to say I just do815not have the facts yet to really understand all of the reasons816behind it. However, I will commit to you that managing fire so817that it does not cause so many health problems and economic818problems to our country and problems to the forest is very819important to me. It will be a major focus.820    Senator Bennet. Thank you. I appreciate that. I think it is821important for the American people and the taxpayer to822understand that fighting these fires costs six times or nine823times more than doing the restoration on the front end, doing824the mitigation on the front end. In that sense, they are825related questions because I hate to say it, but given the826conditions, we may find ourselves paying one way or another,827which is why it is so important, I think, to coordinate this828work. It is very important I think, for the people that are829suppressing the fires to be able to understand and give advice830to the people that are doing the work on the front end as we831think about how to take care of these landscapes and protect832the infrastructure and our water infrastructure in particular.833Can you just respond to that or comment?834    Mr. Boren. Yes, I think that is a really insightful835comment, Senator. I think it is--you are actually836underestimating when you say six to nine times because you are837talking about the tangible costs, and the health costs to838America of the wildland fires that we have had is ridiculously839high and overlooked. I can tell you, it is--I have read some of840the studies on that from university professors and other841organizations, and the health risk to Americans, especially842young Americans, is very high. The health risk to our cattle843herds is very high, and none of that is in your six to nine844times number. It is a really expensive thing. It is much better845to be proactive, to take care of our forests so that we do not846end up with the results of firefighters.847    Here is another thing that is not included in those costs,848the damage to our watersheds----849    Senator Bennet. Yes, that is what----850    Mr. Boren [continuing]. which is amazingly huge. I see it851firsthand in our neighborhood because we have had some really852big fires, we have had pristine wilderness rivers that have not853recovered in 20 years.854    Senator Bennet. Yes. Well, that is my major concern. Every855single watershed we have is downstream of these forests. I856mean, downhill and downstream. That means that every single857farm and ranch is downstream, every single community, no matter858how big and no matter how small. I mean, really, the entire859American West--I do not think it is an exaggeration to say the860entire American West is at risk. We cannot undo lots of861decisions that have been made up until this moment, I suppose.862    We are going to have to find a way to work together in an863urgent way to mitigate the risk that we are facing. I864completely agree that I think we have got to make important865investments on the front end to try to mitigate not just the866cost of fires, but the destruction that they can cause to our867watersheds because without those watersheds, we do not have a868Colorado.869    Mr. Boren. I could not agree more, Senator.870    Senator Bennet. Thank you. Thanks.871    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.872    Chairman Boozman. Senator Hyde-Smith.873    Senator Hyde-Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you,874Mr. Boren, so much for being here today and your willingness to875serve. I am really glad that Stevie is here today. We do not876get very many little girls in here, so glad that you are here877today, Stevie.878    You know, in Mississippi, we call ourselves the ``wood879basket'' of the Nation. You and I had a really good visit about880that. We play a critical role in the U.S. timber supply. We are881uniquely positioned just to meet the growing demands for timber882and wood products, and we also ship them through our ports, our883port at the Gulf of America and down in Mississippi River as884well. Even in challenging times, public and private forests in885Mississippi have been at the forefront of commonsense forest886management that helped keep us healthy, working, and887productive.888    In the next farm bill and through the Fix Our Forests Act,889which is currently being considered by the Committee, we hope890to create more opportunities to support this industry that is891very critical to my state, and to improve the essential tools892that we need at the Forest Service to increase the pace and893scale of active forest management in Mississippi and across the894country.895    If confirmed, how do you plan to approach management within896the agency, especially when it comes to streamlining projects897and the approvals, coordinating with state and local partners,898and making sure decisions keep on-the-ground realities in mind?899    Mr. Boren. Senator Hyde-Smith, one of the things that I900intend to do is learn more about Mississippi and how you have901accomplished the things you have accomplished because some of902the projects that you have been involved in in Mississippi and903some of the things that are going on in the forests in904Mississippi are truly revolutionary and should be applied905throughout the country, and I appreciate your example as a906state.907    Really, I think what it comes down to is we have large908tasks ahead of us with the Forest Service in all the areas you909mentioned, and we need coordination with other entities, both910state agencies, but also user groups and other organizations911that want to put skin in the game and be helpful. I think that,912you know, can be a really, really good thing as we have not all913the resources that we need.914    One thing we need is help from Senators and915Representatives. You pointed out that we have a need for916streamlining what we do.917    Senator Hyde-Smith. Yes.918    Mr. Boren. There is some things that we probably cannot919streamline without streamlining some of our acts of Congress920that might need a little tweaking so that they work921appropriately both for protection of the environment, because922one of the things that is important to us is long-term health923of the forests and sustainability of their usability for the924people, so, you know, that is important, but also being able to925get the right things done at the right time on the ground. A926good example of that would be after a fire, it is really927important to use that timber now rather than wait and try and928sell it in three or four years when it has no value. There is929some things you could do to help us with that.930    Senator Hyde-Smith. We will be glad to do it. In931Mississippi, it is called hard work. Our successes are because932of hard work and some really good programs with people willing933to invest and people willing to commit.934    You know, we have been working on one particular issue for935decades now, and I had the opportunity to mention that to you,936namely developing the area around Lake Okhissa in Franklin937County, Mississippi. It is in the Homochitto National Forest.938It is in southwest Mississippi, beautiful area, so much939potential, 1,100-acre pristine lake down there. It was built940in--in the 1990's is when it was built. You can fish all day941long by yourself almost, and you can ski by yourself. We have942got to develop something to capitalize on the potential around943that area.944    In the 2018 Farm Bill, we worked really hard to include a945provision that transferred 150 acres of the Homochitto National946Forest land to support economic development. We are beginning947to see that pay off significantly since that was signed into948law, and we are very excited about that project, some really949good announcements just lately on that.950    The goal of this effort is to enable smart, locally-driven951development that complements the natural resources and952increases public access that you have mentioned. I look forward953to continuing working with this Committee in supporting954economic development in this very, very rural area of955Mississippi, two small towns. One of them has a red light, the956other one does not.957    Mr. Boren, please share how you view this kind of targeted958land transfer for economic development and what kind of support959the Forest Service could provide to ensure the success of this960project, and both for the community and maintaining stewardship961of the surrounding Homochitto National Forest lands.962    Mr. Boren. Thank you for the opportunity to address that,963Senator. I have to correct you from my personal point of view,964though, which is I do not want to fish by myself when I have965got nine grandkids that like to fish.966    [Laughter.]967    Mr. Boren. It is nice to have some friends, even if you968have to create them.969    In terms of your project at Lake Okhissa, I think it is970brilliant. I think it is replicable. I think it is the kind of971thing that we need to try to do throughout our forests to972increase access and use of the forests. I do not know that we973would have to do it just the way you did it, but the idea is974really important, to give people opportunities to benefit from975the use of the forests. I look forward to--I mentioned to your976staff that I would love to learn more about that project, and I977mean it. I look forward to coming to your office and meeting978with them and learning how we can replicate that elsewhere.979    Senator Hyde-Smith. I would love for you to come to980Mississippi, and I will take you to Lake Okhissa.981    [Laughter.]982    Mr. Boren. Well, as long as I do not have to land at the--983what did you call it? The Brookdale Triangle? Because that is a984scary place from what I hear. I am happy to come.985    [Laughter.]986    Senator Hyde-Smith. We will leave that right there. Thank987you.988    [Laughter.]989    Chairman Boozman. Well, thank you again for appearing990before the Committee, Mr. Boren, and to our Committee Members991for their participation in today's important hearing, again, as992always, to our staffs who do so much work getting these things993ready.994    The record will remain open for two business days. Today's995hearing is now adjourned.996    [Whereupon, at 4:05 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]997998=======================================================================9991000                            A P P E N D I X10011002                              June 3, 202510031004=======================================================================10051006GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT10071008=======================================================================10091010                   DOCUMENTS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD10111012                              June 3, 202510131014=======================================================================10151016GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT10171018=======================================================================10191020                         QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS10211022                              June 3, 202510231024=======================================================================10251026GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT