Hearings to examine the nominations of John Bartrum, of Indiana, to be Under Secretary for Health of the Department of Veterans Affairs, and Jeremiah Workman, of Ohio, to be Assistant Secretary of Labor for Veterans' Employment and Training.

1[Senate Hearing 119-128]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                                                        S. Hrg. 119-12856                HEARING TO CONSIDER PENDING NOMINATIONS78=======================================================================910                                HEARING1112                               BEFORE THE1314                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS15                          UNITED STATES SENATE1617                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS1819                             FIRST SESSION20                               __________2122                             JULY 23, 202523                               __________2425       Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs2627              [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]2829        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov30                                ______3132                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE333461-270 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 20253536                 SENATE COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS3738                     Jerry Moran, Kansas, Chairman39John Boozman, Arkansas               Richard Blumenthal, Connecticut,40Bill Cassidy, Louisiana                Ranking Member41Thom Tillis, North Carolina          Patty Murray, Washington42Dan Sullivan, Alaska                 Bernard Sanders, Vermont43Marsha Blackburn, Tennessee          Mazie K. Hirono, Hawaii44Kevin Cramer, North Dakota           Margaret Wood Hassan, New45Tommy Tuberville, Alabama              Hampshire46Jim Banks, Indiana                   Angus S. King, Jr., Maine47Tim Sheehy, Montana                  Tammy Duckworth, Illinois48                                     Ruben Gallego, Arizona49                                     Elissa Slotkin, Michigan5051                     David Shearman, Staff Director52                Tony McClain, Democratic Staff Director5354                            C O N T E N T S5556                              ----------5758                             July 23, 20255960                                SENATORS6162                                                                   Page63Hon. Jerry Moran, Chairman, U.S. Senator from Kansas.............     164Hon. Richard Blumenthal, Ranking Member, U.S. Senator from65  Connecticut....................................................     266Hon. Tommy Tuberville, U.S. Senator from Alabama.................    1267Hon. Angus S. King, Jr., U.S. Senator from Maine.................    1368Hon. Tim Sheehy, U.S. Senator from Montana.......................    1569Hon. Margaret Wood Hassan, U.S. Senator from New Hampshire.......    1770Hon. Marsha Blackburn, U.S. Senator from Tennessee...............    1971Hon. Mazie K. Hirono, U.S. Senator from Hawaii...................    2072Hon. Thom Tillis, U.S. Senator from North Carolina...............    227374                               INTRODUCER7576Hon. Tim Sheehy, U.S. Senator from Montana.......................     57778                                NOMINEES7980John Bartrum, Nominee to be Under Secretary for Health, U.S.81  Department of Veterans Affairs.................................     38283Jeremiah Workman, Nominee to be Assistant Secretary for Veterans'84  Employment and Training, U.S. Department of Labor..............     68586                                APPENDIX8788                       Submissions for the Record8990The New York Times article ``Facing Painful Cuts, the V.A.91  Reported Dubious Savings to DOGE''.............................    319293The Guardian article `` `Profound alarm' : US veterans agency94  roiled by fight over anti-discrimination provisions''..........    439596Government Executive article ``Internal Veterans Affairs memo97  shows plan to scrutinize disability work from home98  accommodations''...............................................    5399100Federal News Network article ``VA loses 7,500 employees in101  veteran-facing roles amid shrinking workforce''................    55102103                          Nomination Material104105John Bartrum, Nominee106107  Prepared statement.............................................    63108109  Response to Pre-Hearing Questions for the Record submitted by:110111    Hon. Jerry Moran.............................................    65112    Hon. Richard Blumenthal......................................    71113114  Response to Additional Pre-Hearing Questions submitted by:115116    Hon. Richard Blumenthal......................................    81117118  Response to Questions for the Record submitted by:119120    Hon. Jerry Moran.............................................    82121    Hon. Richard Blumenthal......................................    85122    Hon. Bill Cassidy............................................    88123    Hon. Ruben Gallego...........................................    90124    Hon. Mazie K. Hirono.........................................    92125    Hon. Angus S. King, Jr.......................................    95126    Hon. Elissa Slotkin..........................................    96127128  Questionnaire for Presidential Nominees........................    97129130Jeremiah Workman, Nominee131132  Prepared statement.............................................   113133134  Response to Pre-Hearing Questions for the Record submitted by:135136    Hon. Jerry Moran.............................................   116137    Hon. Richard Blumenthal......................................   134138139  Response to Questions for the Record submitted by:140141    Hon. Bill Cassidy............................................   147142    Hon. Mazie K. Hirono.........................................   149143144  Questionnaire for Presidential Nominees........................   152145146                      HEARING TO CONSIDER PENDING147                              NOMINATIONS148149                              ----------150151                        WEDNESDAY, JULY 23, 2025152153                                       U.S. Senate,154                            Committee on Veterans' Affairs,155                                                    Washington, DC.156    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 4:02 p.m., in157Room SR-418, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Jerry Moran,158Chairman of the Committee, presiding.159160    Present: Senators Moran, Cassidy, Tillis, Blackburn,161Tuberville, Sheehy, Blumenthal, Hirono, Hassan, and King.162163             OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JERRY MORAN,164               CHAIRMAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM KANSAS165166    Chairman Moran. Good afternoon, everyone. The hearing will167come to order. Thank you-all for being present with us to168consider the nominees for the VA's Under Secretary for Health169and the Department of Labor's Assistant Secretary for Veterans'170Employment and Training (VETS).171    Making sure that the veterans can access timely, high172quality healthcare as well as meaningful and gainful employment173when they are separated from the military service are two of174the highest priorities this Committee has, and certainly175something that's important to our grateful nation.176    In many ways, VA's Under Secretary for Health and DOL's177Assistant Secretary for Veterans' Employment and Training bear178the bulk of the responsibilities for meeting these missions.179I'm grateful to have two dedicated public servants, John180Bartrum and Jeremiah Workman, before us today as the nominees181for these two important positions.182    While progress has been made to improve access to183healthcare and high-paying jobs, far too many veterans in184Kansas and across the country continue to struggle to take full185advantage of their earned benefits from the VA and the186Department of Labor.187    Mr. Bartrum is a major general in the Air Force Reserve,188and Mr. Workman a decorated marine veteran. They know these189struggles well, and they're both eager to make it easier for190their fellow veterans to thrive in their civilian lives. I look191forward to hearing their plans and priorities, and I appreciate192both nominees and their family members for being with us today193and their willingness to take on these critical roles, if194confirmed.195    With that, I yield to the Ranking Member, Senator196Blumenthal.197198         OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL,199         RANKING MEMBER, U.S. SENATOR FROM CONNECTICUT200201    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you both202for your service to our country and for your willingness now to203serve our veterans. We're going to talk today about your204qualifications and your vision for your responsibilities and205the roles that you've been nominated for.206    But first of all, I think we ought to talk about the207factual background to your nominations. Let me ask Mr. Chairman208that four articles be entered into the record; ``Facing Painful209Cuts, the V.A. Reported Dubious Savings'' from The New York210Times; `` `Profound Alarm' : US veterans agency roiled by fight211over anti-discrimination provisions'' from The Guardian;212``Internal Veterans Affairs memo shows plans to scrutinize213disability work from home accommodations'' from Government214Executive, and finally, ``VA loses 7,500 employees in veteran-215facing roles as part of workforce cuts'' from the Federal News216Network.217    Chairman Moran. Without objection.218219    [The articles referred to appear on pages 31-59 of the220Appendix.]221222    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you. The Federal News Network223article published yesterday highlights the loss of 1,720224registered nurses, 600 doctors, 1,150 medical support225assistants, close to 200 police officers, 80 psychologists, and2261,100 claims examiners.227    According to The New York Times investigation, while the VA228is claiming these cruel cuts are saving taxpayer dollars,229contract terminations and employees firing actually resulted in230an estimate of 25 percent increase in VA spending compared to231last year, 25 percent higher spending because of these cuts.232Something's wrong with this picture.233    Over the same period of time last year, the Biden234administration had a net increase of 3,200 registered nurses,235232 doctors, 1,570 medical support assistants, 191 police236officers, and 1,484 claims examiners. I have insisted on237regular order for the VA nominees so the Senate can have238appropriate and necessary debate on the floor about people239nominated to lead the VA.240    And Mr. Bartrum, you've been there from the beginning, from241the beginning of this administration. You have been a senior242advisor to Secretary Collins since day one, and presumably243involved in these decisions in some way or another. The VA244announced recently, it's abandoning the Secretary's disastrous245plan to fire 8,300 employees----246    Senator King. 83,000.247    Senator Blumenthal. 83,000. Thank you. Thank you Senator248King. 83,000, emphasizing how many there are. That is a249reversal of position due to forceful opposition from Members of250Congress, but even more importantly, veterans and VSOs. And251alarmingly, the VA is poised to lose instead 30,000 employees252by the end of this year, along with 40,000 pre-existing253vacancies with no intention of backfilling those positions. At254least one VA facility recently had 50 mental health providers255leave due to toxic work conditions created by the256administration.257    Secretary Collins says this will have no effect on258veterans' healthcare. With all due respect, I think that259contention is simply false. Despite the value and efforts of260frontline VA employees across the country who are spread261dangerously thin, the loss of dedicated workers in that262magnitude cannot help but impact VA healthcare.263    All this has happened, Mr. Bartrum, again, while you have264been working as a senior advisor to Secretary Collins, and265that's why I think we deserve to know what else you have266planned if you are confirmed at VHA.267    Mr. Workman, if confirmed, you'll be leading a department,268the Department of Labor, Veterans' Employment and Training269Division, and as you know from your own personal experience,270that transition from active duty to civilian life can be271extraordinarily challenging. You've experienced it, and right272now, again, I'm afraid due to the Trump administration's273actions, veterans are unemployed at rates not seen since the274height of the COVID pandemic.275    The veteran unemployment rate is up almost a full276percentage point since this time last year; that's about 62,000277additional unemployed veterans. Employment is a huge factor in278determining veterans' mental health. If you can't work, we all279know veterans want to work, their mental health suffers. And280so, your responsibility is supremely important at this moment281in our history.282    Our veterans have earned and they deserve the best283healthcare and the best employment opportunities that we can284possibly provide, and I am sure that I speak for all the285Members of this Committee in saying we're going to continue to286fight for both. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.287    Chairman Moran [Inaudible]. Before being recognized for288your opening statements, would you please stand and raise your289right hands?290    Do you solemnly swear or affirm that this testimony you're291about to give before the United States Senate Committee on292Veterans Affairs will be the truth, the whole truth, and293nothing but the truth, so help you God?294    Mr. Bartrum. I do.295    Mr. Workman. I do.296    Thank you. Mr. Bartrum, you are now recognized for 5297minutes. Welcome.298299 STATEMENT OF JOHN BARTRUM, NOMINEE TO BE UNDER SECRETARY FOR300          HEALTH, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS301302    Mr. Bartrum. Chairman Moran, Ranking Member Blumenthal,303distinguished Members of the Committee, I am honored to be304nominated for the Under Secretary of Health at the Department305of Veterans Affairs.306    I thank this Committee, the President, Secretary Collins,307for their confidence. And I'm grateful for the support of my308lovely wife, Elizabeth, who's behind me, and our two twin309daughters who couldn't be here today. I also want to310acknowledge my family, friends, fellow veterans, and military311brothers and sisters who are watching and providing support312from across the country.313    As a 16-year-old living on my own after my father passed314away in sixth grade, I never imagined this moment. Growing up315fatherless presents significant challenges. My military service316changed everything. Upon high school graduation, I enlisted in317the Air Force, which trained me, allowed me to mature as a318leader, pay for college, and opened up the American Dream for319me. Statistically speaking, my life should have been very320different.321    This decision to enlist led to over 40 years of military322service that I'm still serving at. I went from E-1 Airman Basic323to the rank of Major General, and I currently serve as the324Mobilization Assistant to the Air and Space Force Surgeon325General. I am the most senior Medical Service Corps hospital326executive in the Air Force. I am the most senior medical327officer position in the Air Force Reserve. My experience in the328military taught me that statistics may be predictive, but329American opportunity can override any predetermined path.330    Despite my early childhood challenges, I earned an331undergraduate degree in business administration from McKendree332University, degrees in bio environmental engineering and333survival and rescue operations, and eventually an MBA from334Southern Illinois University, and a law degree from George335Mason University, and I might add, all at night school.336    In addition, I was trained by the Air Force to be a337hospital administrator. My background demonstrates my338qualifications for the Under Secretary of Health position. This339includes extensive healthcare executive leadership experience340with multi-billion-dollar healthcare systems.341    In my position in the Air Force Surgeon General's Office, I342assist in the leadership of a $6.1 billion healthcare system343involving 44,000 personnel integrated healthcare delivery344system, serving 2.6 million beneficiaries at 76 locations345worldwide.346    I'm a combat veteran. I have been mobilized multiple times;347Desert Storm, Operation Iraqi Freedom, and the COVID response.348I served as the associate director of the National Institutes349of Health. During COVID, when I was mobilized, I was one of the350key people who developed the concept of what became known as351Warp Speed. I'm not as creative as coming up with the name Warp352Speed, so I originally called it the Manhattan Project----353    [Laughter.]354    General Bartrum [continuing]. But others came up with a355better name. In that role, I was the deputy for the entire356government response for Emergency Support Function-8. So, the357operations manager for all the health operations for the358country, leading DoD teams, HHS teams, FEMA teams, VA teams,359and public health service teams, as well as working with the360State's Governors and FEMA response team.361    As a former House Appropriations Committee professional362staff member, I oversaw the policy and funding for major health363agencies, including NIH, CMS, and CDC to name a few.364Furthermore, I previously worked in the Department of Veterans365Affairs and in the Office of Management and Budget on VA and366defense health policy and financing matters.367    The Veterans Healthcare System exclusively serves millions368of veterans nationwide with critical healthcare they earned369from military service. It operates over 1,200 healthcare370facilities nationwide, including medical centers, community-371based outpatient clinics, and specialized care facilities to372serve approximately nine million eligible veterans annually.373    If confirmed, I will work to enhance healthcare delivery374standards with greater consistency, continue VA's focus on375patient safety and quality improvement while balancing access376and improved outcomes. Continue to support medical research on377veterans issues, its medical education programs, and enhance378VA's mission to assist our Nation during emergencies and379disasters as they did in COVID.380    Military service is more than a job, as you all know. It's381an act of selflessness and dedication to ensure all of us can382enjoy the freedom of democracy. The military service of my383father, my brother, my grandfather, my military brothers and384sisters who've served before me, who serve with me, who will385serve after me, have taught me that we owe veterans more than386gratitude. We owe them excellence.387    I welcome your questions, and if confirmed, I look forward388to working with this Committee to fulfill our sacred obligation389to those who've served. Thank you.390391    [The prepared statement of Mr. Bartrum appears on page 63392of the Appendix.]393394    Chairman Moran. Thank you, Mr. Bartrum. I recognize Senator395Sheehy for the introduction of Mr. Workman.396397               INTRODUCTION BY HON. TIM SHEEHY,398                   U.S. SENATOR FROM MONTANA399400    Senator Sheehy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Moran,401Ranking Member Blumenthal, thank you for the opportunity and402the honor to introduce a great American like Jeremiah Workman.403I also want to thank President Trump and Secretary Chavez-404DeRemer for nominating a combat veteran and decorated hero for405such an important position for our veteran community.406    Indeed, our Nation is stronger when we have battlefield407experience serving in senior levels of our republic. And most408importantly, Jeremiah, I thank you and your family for not only409your service up to now, but your willingness to serve yet410again.411    As a fellow combat veteran, married to a combat veteran,412also a Marine, unfortunately, you know, you guys, I can't ever413get away from you guys, I not only understand the depth of your414sacrifice, I also understand the value of your perspective as415we seek to reorient our government toward common sense.416    Jeremiah joined the Marine Corps while still in high school417and went on to serve in combat at some of the fiercest fighting418our Nation has seen in a generation. Fighting in battles across419Iraq, including in one of our bloodiest battlefields of420Fallujah.421    But Jeremiah didn't just serve and survive in these422firefights, he led through them and fought like a lion. On one423fateful day as he led his Marines on patrol, they fought424through a vicious ambush, confronting a numerically superior425force of well-armed suicidal insurgents who were ready to trade426their lives for martyrdom. Jeremiah decided he could help them427do just that. He fought with the ferocity only a few who had428been under fire can understand. His bravery that day earned him429the Navy Cross in a place of eternal honor in the halls of430Marine Corps lore.431    Since leaving active duty, instead of living off of the432accolades of his former life and his achievements, which he is433quite capable of and frankly entitled to do, he recommitted434himself to service and has worked tirelessly to advocate for435veteran work programs that improve transition success for our436heroes. He also helped remind America that veterans are a437superpower for our labor force. They just need the opportunity438to show what they can do.439    Jeremiah's work is not focused on veteran handouts or440benefit programs but has focused on empowering our former441servicemen and women to achieve new heights after their time in442uniform. In an era when only 1 percent of Americans have served443in combat, much of our Nation is quick to victimize our444veterans and treat them like damaged goods, who when they come445home, they need a blanket and handouts. This couldn't be446further from the truth. And it's a corrosive narrative that our447veteran community must stop on their own.448    We are veterans, not victims. Veterans, not victims.449Veterans join the service because they believe in the mission450and they love their country. That mission and purpose don't end451when they take the uniform off. In fact, as Jeremiah has shown452us, that is just the beginning.453    We must resist the urge to coddle our veterans and instead454help them launch a new chapter in their lives, chapters of455achievement, excellence, and renewed service and mission.456Jeremiah has done that himself. He has helped other veterans do457that, and now will help the entire nation do that.458    America's lucky to have men like Jeremiah on the459battlefield, and now we'll be lucky to have him as a leader in460our government. Thank you, Chairman.461    Chairman Moran. Senator Sheehy, thank you for your462introduction, and Mr. Workman, you are recognized.463464    STATEMENT OF JEREMIAH WORKMAN, NOMINEE TO BE ASSISTANT465     SECRETARY FOR VETERANS' EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING, U.S.466                      DEPARTMENT OF LABOR467468    Mr. Workman. Thank you, Senator Sheehy for the469introduction. Chairman Moran, Ranking Member Blumenthal, and470Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to471appear before you today. I am honored and humbled to be472considered for the role of Assistant Secretary of Labor for473Veterans' Employment and Training Service. This nomination is a474call to serve those who have served us all.475    I am grateful to President Donald Trump for nominating me476to serve in this role. He has demonstrated an unrelenting477support for our military and veterans, placing a renewed478national focus on honoring their service and expanding their479opportunities after they leave the uniform behind. I would also480like to thank Secretary Lori Chavez-DeRemer and Deputy481Secretary Keith Sonderling for their leadership and support of482my nomination.483    I especially would like to take a moment to thank someone484very important to me; my wife, Jessica. Jessica and I have been485together since high school. She's the mother of our two486incredible children, Devin and Delaney, and all three are here487in support today. Throughout my military career through my488deployment injury, reintegration, Jessica has been a constant489source of strength, grace, and resilience. They say the490toughest job in the military is that of a military spouse, and491Jessica has fulfilled that role with a quiet determination that492has shaped the man I am today. Jessica, thank you. You are my493rock.494    Public service has long been a part of my family's story.495My grandfather served in World War II. My dad is a United496States Army Veteran. For me, the decision to serve came early.497I enlisted the Marine Corps when I was 17 years old. On the498morning of September 11, 2001, I was in a barbershop at Parris499Island. A few years later, in December 2004, I was deployed500with a team of Marines in Fallujah, Iraq as part of Operation501Phantom Fury.502    Our mission was going house to house clearing insurgents in503one of the fiercest urban battles of the Iraq war. During one504operation, we engaged more than two dozen insurgents fortified505inside a safe house. The details of that day are well506documented, and I won't recount them all here, but I will say507this; the bravery and the sacrifice I witnessed from my fellow508Marines that day continue to inspire my life's work.509    Since leaving active duty, I've committed myself to serving510veterans through my work with the Wounded Warrior Regiment, the511VA, and the private sector. I've always had the same focus,512making sure veterans didn't fall through the cracks. I've seen513how powerful the right support at the right time can be, and514I've seen what happens when we fail to deliver.515    As a Marine combat veteran, I've experienced firsthand both516the immense pride of military service and the complex517challenges of transitioning back into civilian life. I have518also seen the untapped potential that every veteran carries519with them, after service. Our Nation owes these men and women520more than gratitude. We owe them an opportunity, dignity, and a521pathway to purpose, post-service.522    If confirmed, I will lead the Veterans' Employment and523Training Service with that mission at its core. To empower524every transitioning service member, veteran, and military525spouse with the tools they need to succeed in the workforce and526in life. Regardless of the length of their service, they527deserve the chance to build a meaningful, fulfilling civilian528career.529    If confirmed, every decision we make at VETS will start530with one question; what does this mean for the veteran? That531will be our guiding principle. I will lead with urgency,532compassion, and accountability. We will work to strengthen our533programs, improve interagency coordination, and embrace534innovation from digital training platforms to expanded employer535partnerships.536    Our focus will be on the outcomes that matter, quality537jobs, long-term careers, and the dignity that comes with538meaningful work. We will ensure that veterans are not only539welcomed into the workforce, but they are prepared, empowered,540recruited, and valued. This is the greatest professional honor541of my life, and I am ready to continue my service to our great542country.543    Thank you again for your time and consideration. I544respectfully ask for your support of my nomination, and I look545forward to your questions.546547    [The prepared statement of Mr. Workman appears on page 113548of the Appendix.]549550    Chairman Moran. Mr. Workman, Mr. Bartman, thank you both551for your presence here, and more importantly, thank you for552your service as outlined by you and by Senator Sheehy. Thanks553for protecting and serving our Nation.554    Mr. Bartrum, in response, and I want to tell you that how555you respond to this question is really important to me. This is556not a throw-away question in any way. In response to your pre-557hearing questions, you referenced ``having an opportunity to558revisit the balance of direct care and community care.''559    In my view, that balance belongs with the veteran. The560veteran gets to decide under the eligibility criteria561established by Congress in the MISSION Act. And it's the VA's562responsibility to work continuously to make certain that563eligible veterans can freely choose between high performing VA564direct care, and high functioning VA community care. Do you565agree? Why or why not? Would you explain your view on this566topic?567    Mr. Bartrum. I fully agree with you. It is the veteran's568choice on how we work to balance that care. Right now, the569bureaucratic process that has been put in place before this570administration takes an enormous amount of time, and it takes a571lot of hoops for a veteran to get community care.572    One of the things that you did is you passed the best573medical interest, and we implemented that. In the policy574statement that Secretary Collins put, when he implemented it,575part of his words were we don't need a congressional law to576tell us to do what's common sense. And what's common sense is577that if the doctor and the veteran decide that they need to578have a referral to community care, that the referral to579community care should occur, and it doesn't take another580doctor, or another technician, or somebody else to review it.581    It's just like it is in your private sector. When you and582your doctor decide you need a referral and you need to go583somewhere, then you get the referral and you go. So, that has584been implemented. Those are the things that I'm talking about.585I'm balancing the community care with the direct care.586    If you think about our healthcare system in the VA, when I587worked for the VA years ago, we were essentially a single-588engine motor. We had one cylinder, and it was direct care. We589now have community care, referral care, whatever you'd like to590refer to it, and we have direct care. And we need to balance591those care activities for our veterans based on our veterans.592    In the VA, there's things that we do that veterans want to593keep coming back and using us over and over, especially if they594live within the area where they can get to us. If they don't595live within that area, they need to be able to use community596care without jumping through a thousand hoops. But if they want597to use our prosthetic care, which I would argue is second to598none, or some of our primary health mental care, or some of our599primary care, and they live in that area, they should be able600to do that and have the choice to do that.601    But if they need to use while they're in that area based on602a referral, because we don't have the specialty care, they603should be able to get the specialty care that they need, where604they need it. So, that's what I say when we need to balance it.605It's form and function, sir. It's structured. It's basic606leadership 101.607    And having been a leader in both the civil service side as608an SES and on the military side as a general officer, that's609what I intend to do. Is to lead the organization to look at the610processes and how to better affect the veteran's patient611outcome.612    Chairman Moran. When you say balance or rebalance, it's613based upon--I'm paraphrasing or telling you what I heard from614your answer. It's based upon the best interest of the veteran,615not any other criteria?616    Mr. Bartrum. Yes, sir. It's the best interest of the617veteran and what the law allows us to do.618    Chairman Moran. Yes, there is the law. Thank you. Mr.619Bartrum, over the past 5 years, we've seen a major swing in VA620workforce from a record hiring in '22 and '23 to a planned621decrease of 10,000 employees in '24, and now, further622reductions in the overall workforce this year. There has not623been a VA staffing strategy in recent history that takes a624long-term view despite the necessity of high performing625workforce for the delivery of timely high-quality care.626    If confirmed, what data points and trends will you look at627to determine the VHA's workforce needs? What are your goals628when it comes to the VHA workforce, and how will you work with629this Committee to develop a coherent and sustainable VHA630staffing strategy moving forward and longer-term?631    Mr. Bartrum. And that's a great question, sir, and I really632appreciate that. On the strategy of the workforce, as you know,633VA has about 470,000 employees and about 350,000 of those are634at VA healthcare facilities facing the healthcare of the635veterans and providing care for the veterans. And most of those636350,000 were exempt from the hiring freeze that Ranking Member637Blumenthal had identified early on in the discussion.638    But one of the things that I've committed to working with,639and I'd love to work with your staff on it, once confirmed, or640if I'm confirmed, is with also with the HR, our HR Assistant641Secretary Mark Engelbaum, on setting up a workforce structure642with manning documents so that we understand what positions and643what manning documents you should have, and setting up standard644staffing models so that we understand how many staff you need645for certain types of activities.646    We don't have good staffing models in the VA. And the way647that--when I've looked at some of the numbers, and I'm only a648senior advisor, so I don't dig into all the different things649every day at VHA. But when you look at some of the different650numbers on their staffing model, is it not a consistent651staffing model? Do you have inconsistent number of staffing in652certain areas and not in others? And we need to normalize that653across the platform.654    So, I look forward to working with you and the staff and655with my other colleagues at VA to set up staffing models to656ensure that we're looking at that, to make sure that we're657getting the throughput on patient output and we're getting--658we're getting the service that we need.659    But what I would want to say is that with all the hiring660that went on during the Biden administration between 2021 and6612024, there were over 52,000 full-time equivalents. But what662happened during that time? The wait times didn't improve. The663wait time for primary care rose from 15.7 days to 24.3. The664wait time for mental health rose from 14.7 to 20.4. The wait665times for--24 for specialty care went from 24 to 38 days. So,666the measures that I'm going to look at are what is our access667and what are the things that we're doing to improve access? And668I see my time's up, so.669    Chairman Moran. And I, too, see that my time is up. Mr.670Workman, I'll come back to you at the next opportunity. And I671recognize Senator Blumenthal.672    Senator Blumenthal. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. As senior advisor673to Secretary Collins, Mr. Bartrum, were you involved in the674decision to fire 83,000 VA employees?675    Mr. Bartrum. Was I involved in the decision to fire 82,000676employees? No.677    Senator Blumenthal. Were you involved in the decision to678change that number to 30,000?679    Mr. Bartrum. No.680    Senator Blumenthal. Have you been involved in any workforce681decisions previously relating to healthcare?682    Mr. Bartrum. I'm not involved in any of the HR decisions683that come out of the HR side.684    Senator Blumenthal. Are you alarmed by the numbers that I685gave you as to the 1,720 registered nurses, nearly 600686physicians frontline doctors, nurses, psychologists, police687officers leaving as a result of the resignations, firings,688hiring freezes, just so far.689    Mr. Bartrum. So, what I would say is that I'm not aware of690any firings there have been----691    Senator Blumenthal. Well, are you alarmed by those numbers?692    Mr. Bartrum. There are force restructuring tools out there,693but there's also numbers of people that change in the system.694And in our system every year, we have about 40,000 people695turnover in our system every year. So, in a system where you696have 470,000 people, I'm not alarmed by a shift of 500, or 700,697or 7,500, because in systems as big, you have natural698changeover. What I can say is that what I have seen in the VA699is that our employees tend to stay longer, and we tend to700recruit well. So----701    Senator Blumenthal. Are you aware that the loss of those702thousands of staff have an effect on VA healthcare? Those703numbers are not business as usual. I gave you the numbers for704the similar period under the Biden administration. Even at the705beginning of this fiscal year, there were 40,000 vacancies.706Wouldn't you say that VA healthcare is in jeopardy as a result707of the numbers of employees already lost even before the 30,000708that are planned by the end of the year?709    Mr. Bartrum. So, what I'd also say is that what you may not710have seen is that we've made changes to our system that have711enhanced our ability to provide access and our ability to712provide care.713    Senator Blumenthal. So, you're not alarmed?714    Mr. Bartrum. So, the expanding electronic scheduling715system, which in the past one person would schedule for the716community care process would schedule, and these are generally717nurses would schedule five to seven patients a day by expanding718out the--what's called the ESP, the electronic scheduling719process. We are now doing 20 to 24 on average per scheduler.720So, it expands access and it expands----721    Senator Blumenthal. I'm going to interrupt you because my722time is limited, Mr. Bartrum. You're talking to me about maybe723doing scheduling more efficiently. You're not talking about724doctors, nurses, police, janitors. You and I talked, they're725all part of a team. You've got to have a team. In your role as726senior advisor, were you involved in the cancellation of727contracts?728    Mr. Bartrum. I was involved in review of contracts that the729career officials would recommend for rescoping, descoping, or730in some cases, cancellation.731    Senator Blumenthal. What's the answer to that question? Yes732or no?733    Mr. Bartrum. Yes.734    Senator Blumenthal. You were involved?735    Mr. Bartrum. Yes.736    Senator Blumenthal. Okay. Can you give me a number of737contracts that have been canceled?738    Mr. Bartrum. No. I can't give you a number of contracts739that have been canceled, but what I can say is I can get back740to you for the record. I know that we have----741    Senator Blumenthal. Well, we've heard that again, and742again, and again, and again, you'll get back to us. We've heard743it from nominees, we've heard it from the Secretary.744Information has been provided, it's incomplete, it's wrong.745We're asking for basic transparency and disclosure here that we746have a right to see. Veterans have a right to see. The public747has a right to see.748    Let me ask you, do you have information about the wait749times for community care when veterans choose that option? Do750you have data about the wait times for community care?751    Mr. Bartrum. Yes, I do have some information [flips through752pages in his notebook]. I am not locating my page on that, sir,753if I find it, but I can get back to you. But what I can say is754that in our wait times, we have seen improvements in certain755areas of wait times.756    Senator Blumenthal. Well, we've asked for this data757repeatedly. I'm not surprised you can't find it in your758notebook there. Or maybe I should say, if you found it, it759should have been provided to us long before now because we've760requested it repeatedly. So, you can get back to me if you'd761like. I welcome your willingness to do so.762    But again, the reason why we have, in effect, asked for the763regular order on these nominees is this kind of data simply764hasn't been provided. My time has expired Mr. Chairman. I hope765that we will have time for additional questions.766    Chairman Moran. Senator Tuberville.767768                     HON. TOMMY TUBERVILLE,769                   U.S. SENATOR FROM ALABAMA770771    Senator Tuberville. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for772both of you being here. Look forward to supporting you both.773Mr. Bartrum, one of the biggest complaints I hear about the VA774healthcare services is communication. And in my State of775Alabama, we're very rural and it's a huge problem. If776confirmed, how will you work with the Secretary in utilizing777new technology that we have, you know, for community service?778    Mr. Bartrum. Thank you, sir. As you know, we talked a779little bit about this when I met with you. You know, rural780veterans who live in the rural area are somewhere between 60781and 66 percent of our veterans. And so, reaching out and782reaching to our veterans and partnering with, not only the VSOs783and our service organizations that are out there, but using our784technology that we have with our communication strategy, our785websites, and reaching out to folks with our provider network,786with our community care partners is something that I'm going to787look into and work with you, and partner on, and look at the788strategies.789    I'm not steeped into what strategies VHA is using since I'm790not in the role, but once I'm in the role, I'd love to partner791with you and bring back what we're doing specifically, and792figure out how we can best reach out to our rural networks.793    Senator Tuberville. Thank you. Mr. Workman, in your794testimony, you highlighted the need for DOL VETS to focus on795outcomes and performances. If confirmed, how will you ensure796veterans are not just a number, but instead placed in long term797quality jobs?798    Mr. Workman. Thank you for the question, Senator. I think799when it comes to our veterans and when they're transitioning800from that active status into veteran status, it is important801for us to capture them as they're leaving the door in what we802call the Transition Assistance Program.803    I believe a lot of folks are falling through the cracks,804and for whatever reason, not attending TAP or just not soaking805it in. I think that's where it starts is that last 6 months to806a year before they leave active duty or reserve status. Once807out into small, you know, wherever they go in America, that's808generally where we start to see issues. They lose that support809network.810    That's where our American job centers come into play. We811need to make sure that the folks out there are properly trained812in doing what they need to do to take care of our transitioning813veterans and their family members.814    Senator Tuberville. Thank you, Mr. Bartrum. In May, the VA815announced a policy change that would make it easier for816veterans to access community care when a VA doctor determines817it is in their best medical interest. What's your opinion on818this announcement?819    Mr. Bartrum. I thought it was the right announcement, and820it should have been done years ago. I believe that when a821veteran and their doctor says they need to go to a referral on822the outside, and they both agree with that, that that is enough823to send them to the outside to get referral.824    Senator Tuberville. Thank you. Mr. Workman, as you know,825the Federal Government is very siloed, and agencies often don't826communicate with each other. It seems like we can't get827information from the DoD to the VA coordinated because all the828systems are different. It's been a disaster since I've been829here. We've spent billions of dollars. We can't seem to do it.830But if confirmed, how will you improve coordination across831agencies to veterans and put them first?832    Mr. Workman. Thank you for the question, Senator. If833confirmed, you're 100 percent correct, we need to tighten up834communications across the different departments and agencies. I835feel like sometimes VETS, Department of Labor VETS sometimes836doesn't always have a seat at the table. And if confirmed, I837can assure you that we will have a seat at the table with the838DoD, and also, the VA, so that we can better serve our veterans839and their family members.840    Senator Tuberville. Are you aware of the problems that841we've had from the DoD to the--you know, all the information842going from DoD to the veterans?843    Mr. Workman. Yes, Senator. I spent 10 or 11 years working844at the VA and I've also worked for DoD in a civilian capacity.845And I do know that it is a challenge. And like I said, if846confirmed, we will have a seat at the table and we look forward847to working with our counterparts.848    Senator Tuberville. Mr. Bartrum, you and I talked about849this, about coinciding information. You can't get something850done unless you get both sides, you know, working together.851What's your thoughts on that?852    Mr. Bartrum. No, I think we need to re-energize the sharing853agreements of data and getting data across the system. I also854think we have to do a better job of coordinating data within855VHA, and VA, and VVA because that data needs to flow smoother.856And so, I think there's lots of opportunities to do data857sharing within the department and within--within858intergovernmental agencies.859    Senator Tuberville. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.860    Chairman Moran. Senator King.861862                    HON. ANGUS S. KING, JR.,863                    U.S. SENATOR FROM MAINE864865    Senator King. Thank you, Mr. Chair. In many of our866hearings, we have very well qualified candidates with terrific867backgrounds. I don't think I've ever been in a hearing where868we've had two people with the backgrounds that both of you have869that's so impressive and important, the perspective that you'll870bring to these jobs. So, I want to start with that.871    I also want to start with the fact that all of us here are872committed to the veteran community, and to doing the best that873we can. That doesn't mean we're going to agree because I'm very874concerned about the direction of the department.875    Mr. Bartrum, let's talk about the contracts. There was a876memo that came in an email from the department on July 3rd.877``VA will avoid a total of about $13.1 billion in cost by878terminating or not reviewing 16,000 contracts.'' And then it879goes on to say, I think, one of the most preposterous880statements I've seen. ``Terminating or not reviewing these881contracts will not negatively affect veteran care benefits or882services.''883    That's just hard for me to believe, and I've gone through--884by the way [holding up a sheet of paper], was it somebody's885idea of a joke? Did you guys laugh about printing this so small886that it's virtually impossible to read? Was that somebody's887conscious decision Mr. Bartrum? This is an insult. This is the888list.889    Mr. Bartrum. Sir, I had nothing to do with how the list890came over. But we can look into that and get you----891    Senator King. Paper is cheap, as my father used to say. And892print it in a way that we can read it. But I've done a little893examination. This is full of contracts for nursing services,894nursing home services. You mentioned prosthetics. There are895probably a dozen prosthetics contracts that are being canceled.896It's just hard for me to believe that all of these are897unnecessary contracts, $13 billion worth of contracts.898    And what worries me is there seems to be a pattern899developing of ready, fire, aim in the Veterans Affairs. You900started with first the hiring freeze applied to everybody,901then, ``Oh, no, it doesn't apply to medical people.'' That was902a good decision, but it shouldn't have been. It was a decision903that should have been made in the first place. Then it was90483,000 people are going to be fired by the end of this year.905Now, it's 30,000, not fired, but we're going to downsize by90630,000.907    And I just wonder if, upon review, I can't believe that all90816,000 of these contracts are--and then the email of course909lists three or four ones that we would all say, ``Okay, those910probably aren't necessary.'' But prosthetics contracts, nursing911contracts, nursing home contracts, I just--it really bothers912me.913    Mr. Bartrum, you mentioned we don't have a good staffing914model, and that may well be true, but I think you should start915with a staffing model and then decide what the right size of916the staff is. Not start with 30,000 or a month ago it was91783,000 and work backward.918    Do you see what I'm saying? Analyze the staff, do the919staffing model, determine what you need, and then make those920decisions instead of starting with what amounts to a quota and921sort of reverse engineering. Give me some thoughts about that.922    Mr. Bartrum. So, Senator King, I don't disagree with the923way that the--using analytics to determine what you need for924staffing and building to the staffing, which is why my earlier925comment was I really want to work on what is our staffing and926what our staffing should be.927    On your question about the contracts, a lot of those we928also found that we had multiple contracts in multiple areas for929similar things, and that we could also consolidate into more930regional and national contracts. And so, where you see some931contracts that may be terminated on the list, there may be932additional contracts that were expanded out or scope changed so933that you could renegotiate it into a regional contract and934because you had the same contractor in some cases providing935service in certain areas.936    Senator King. So, it's hard for me to believe that in the937time we've had in the last few months, that this list of 16,000938contracts has had the kind of careful review that--well, I will939predict that a month or two from now, there's going to be940another memo saying, well, there's a bunch of contracts we941aren't going to cut or eliminate. And I would want to see more942planning before the decisions are made that could so943significantly affect veterans' care.944    Mr. Workman, I love what you said. I think transition is945the key. I'm on the Armed Services Committee. I said 10 years946ago, the Defense department should spend as much money on947transition out as they do on recruiting in. And I've been948working with Armed Services and others on, for example, having949VSOs involved in the TAP Program; letting veterans pre-enroll950for VA healthcare before they leave active duty, providing the951veterans data to their State Veterans Administration when they952leave so they can be contacted. So, I look forward to working953with you. I hope you think those are worthwhile initiatives.954    Mr. Workman. Absolutely, Senator.955    Senator King. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I956appreciate the time.957    Chairman Moran. Senator Sheehy.958959                        HON. TIM SHEEHY,960                   U.S. SENATOR FROM MONTANA961962    Senator Sheehy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll agree with963Senator King's comments that we all care about the veterans964here. We may not always agree, and in the last 5 years, our965veteran VA budget has increased by 70 percent. Over 70 percent966VA employee headcounts increased by 28 percent. Our veteran967population in the country has gone down by over 9 percent. And968yet, as you pointed out General Bartrum, veteran suicide has969gone up. Patient wait times have gone up, call wait times have970gone up. Our contract for the veteran healthcare electronic971health records is what--over a decade, over schedule now, and972billions over budget.973    So, all these contracts that are being canceled, I can very974much believe that we're not seeing impact in medical care,975because it seems like the more contracts we issue, the more976money we spend, and the more people we're hiring, the quality977of the care and our ability to deliver it is actually978decreasing.979    And our ability to interface with community care and allow980our veterans to interact with their community's healthcare981that's already there, is the best and fastest, and cheapest way982for us to make sure that if a veteran is in need, a mental983healthcare crisis in rural Montana, when they're hours from a984VA hospital, the quickest, best, and cheapest and most985effective way for them to get the care they need is not to wait986on a phone line for hours on end. Not to wait three-plus weeks987to get an appointment booked, but to be able to go that day,988that minute, to a local care center where they can get what989they need.990    And what we've seen is intentional obstruction for years of991the ability for veterans to actually access community care. And992that obstructions come from within the VA. Not everybody, not993every single person, but there's no question there's been994organized organizational obstruction to accessing private995community care for veterans.996    And in a state like Montana, where we have almost 10997percent of our state are veterans, in a frontier healthcare998market, not just rural healthcare, frontier healthcare, to999assume that we can build a clinic close enough to every veteran1000and make sure they have the access in a time of urgent1001emergency need is fantasy. It's fantasy. They have to be able1002to access community care.1003    And there's been an intentional obstruction of that within1004the agency. And the more money we spend and the more contracts,1005and the more people we hire are not solving the problem. It's1006not. So, are we going to solve the problem or are we going to1007create jobs? And for me, I'm about mission. Having served in1008combat like Jeremiah and yourself, I'm worried about what's1009good for the veterans.1010    And I believe Senator King and everyone else says, too, we1011may not agree, but the data does not lie. And the data shows1012that despite hiring tens of thousands of extra employees and1013spending billions and billions upon billions of more money on1014contracts, and people, and buildings, and brick and mortar, it1015hasn't improved the situation.1016    So, I applaud the efforts of Secretary Collins. Have they1017been perfect? No. Changing a massive organization is never1018going to be easy or fast. We're going to make mistakes, but1019something has to change. The trajectory of how we're dealing1020with our veteran care model has to change. And this1021administration is changing that, and I support it.1022    So, I thank you for your efforts to doing so. It's hard to1023change something like this without making some mistakes, and1024you're going to make enemies. But you've taken a big risk in1025doing it, and I appreciate it.1026    So, that's most of my time, but I will, in the vein of my1027questions, ask a couple of things specifically to Mr. Workman1028since you've been getting all the attention so far. I'll give1029you a break. Transition assistance. You talked about it, you've1030done it yourself. I've done it. It's a challenging thing to do.1031What are you going to do specifically with the TAP program, or1032I should say Transition Assistance Program, to make sure that1033we are building a more sturdy bridge for our veterans as they1034transition so they can have ready-made careers when they get1035out?1036    Mr. Workman. Thank you for the question, Senator. I think1037it needs to start a little earlier in the transition process.1038As you know, a lot of junior folks when they are making that1039transition, the last thing sometimes between them and a DD2141040is that check in the box that they went through TAP class. We1041need to put emphasis on it and make sure the commanders are1042holding their troops accountable and ensuring that they are1043attending TAP to begin with.1044    But, if confirmed, and I get to DOL VETS, we need to take a1045look at it from the top to the bottom. And there's absolutely1046room to improve the process. Like I said, I think we need to1047make sure that we have a seat at the table with the DoD and the1048VA as we all administer TAP.1049    And I look forward, like I said, if confirmed, to taking a1050look at it and seeing what we can do to ensure that we can get1051veterans and their family members good-paying jobs when they1052leave the military. Jobs that when they wake up in the morning,1053they feel good about what they're doing, and they can take care1054of their family. That's what we're going to do.1055    Chairman Moran. Senator Hassan.10561057                   HON. MARGARET WOOD HASSAN,1058                U.S. SENATOR FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE10591060    Senator Hassan. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair and to both of1061our nominees. First, thank you and your families for your1062service, and congratulations on your nominations. And a special1063thanks to the families because you both stepping up to do this1064work will be a test for them as well, and we're very, very1065grateful to you.1066    And as Senator King and Senator Sheehy just said, we are1067all united here in serving veterans. And Mr. Workman, you and I1068talked about my dad served in World War II, your grandfather,1069and that was a really good discussion. And as I said, my1070father, having survived the Battle of the Bulge, I never heard1071him complain about a thing afterwards. Just a remarkable member1072of the greatest generation.1073    But I also just want to address, Senator Sheehy and I would1074agree that community care is important. New Hampshire is the1075only state in the contiguous U.S. that doesn't have its own VA1076hospital. So, community care has been very important. I would1077also say that some of the statistics that Senator Sheehy was1078talking about happened during the time when we passed and1079instituted the PACT Act. So, there are a lot more people coming1080into the VA for healthcare. It was a big surge. And we still1081have work to do to implement the PACT Act effectively.1082    And I'm also concerned because our community care in New1083Hampshire and across the country is also struggling. So, to1084suggest that just by referring veterans to our community1085civilian healthcare system is going to solve their access to1086care problem I think ignores the challenges that our community1087system, our civilian system, is going to have, especially in1088light of the reconciliation bill, ``The Big Beautiful Bill'' is1089what President Trump calls it, that's going to strain our rural1090care even more.1091    So, I want us to all think about that in that context. I1092want us all to think about Senator King's concern about the way1093these contracts were canceled. It's just the way I think about1094it is, you know, good carpenters measure twice and cut once.1095And it seems to me that the VA went about this backward.1096    So, I'll get to my questions now, but I just wanted to kind1097of level set us a little bit as I listened to the exchanges1098we've been going on. I am asking every nominee these days a1099straightforward question. And I'll start with you, Mr. Bartrum,1100and then you, Mr. Workman. If directed by the President to take1101an action that would break the law, would you follow the law or1102follow the President's directive? Mr. Bartrum?1103    Mr. Bartrum. I don't anticipate ever being asked to break1104the law, but I'll follow the law.1105    Senator Hassan. Thank you. And I should have said General1106Bartrum, sorry.1107    Mr. Bartrum. That's okay.1108    Mr. Workman. Likewise, I don't anticipate the President1109asking me to break the law, but I would always follow the law.1110    Senator Hassan. Well, I appreciate your commitment to1111following the law. I'd suggest that you review some of the1112things the President and his administration have done, and1113consider the first part of your answer.1114    Mr. Workman, I'd like to discuss an issue that I know we1115both care about a lot; ensuring that our Nation fully supports1116the surviving families of our fallen heroes. I've been working1117with Senator Cassidy on a bipartisan bill that would help Gold1118Star and surviving spouses get employment assistance through1119DOL VETS, the office that you're nominated to lead.1120    I'd like to work with you on this issue because I think we1121owe it to the families of the fallen to do everything that we1122can to support them and help them move forward. That's a debt1123we owe to those who sacrifice so much for our Nation. Given1124your military experience, sir, can you talk to me about some of1125the sacrifices that military families make and the importance1126of supporting them, especially surviving spouses?1127    Mr. Workman. Yes. Thank you for the question, Senator, and1128I do appreciate you taking that meeting with me. That was1129special to be able to look through that, your father's diary,1130and I appreciate that.1131    But getting back to our Gold Star families, we owe these1132folks more than what--we owe them everything. My wife,1133Jessica's sitting right behind me, she could be the first one1134to tell you that staying at home while we are overseas doing1135our Nation's work, like I said in my opening statement, is one1136of the toughest jobs in the military. We owe these folks1137everything that we have to offer, and if confirmed, I look1138forward to working with your office and providing technical1139assistance with----1140    Senator Hassan. Well, thank you. That's what I was going to1141ask, if you'd commit to working with us on this bill, and I1142look forward to working with you on that too.1143    General Bartrum, in May, the President issued an Executive1144order requiring the Secretary of the VA to create an action1145plan to support a full-service medical center in New Hampshire1146so that we're no longer, that only state in the contiguous U.S.1147without a full-service VA hospital.1148    I have long supported bringing a full-service hospital to1149New Hampshire, and I want to make sure that the VA is engaging1150with Granite Staters at every step of the way. If confirmed to1151be the VA's Under Secretary for Health, how will you work with1152New Hampshire veterans in our congressional delegation as the1153VA creates its plan for a full-service hospital in New1154Hampshire?1155    Mr. Bartrum. Senator, I can certainly assure you that I1156will work with you and the state on that. We have already1157started a site survey process where we start the initial part1158of the site survey, and then down the road, that will have a1159process where we engage with the state as we look at what we1160see as the need, capabilities, and capacities that are there,1161and to work with the state on what right looks like as we move1162forward.1163    Senator Hassan. Well, I appreciate that. We have1164understandably, like I think probably in every state, a very1165active group of veterans in New Hampshire. As you both have1166commented, veterans never stop the mission to serve, and that's1167true in New Hampshire as it is everywhere else. And they really1168want to engage directly with the VA about how to make this a1169successful planning scenario. So, thank you, sir.1170    Chairman Moran. Senator Hassan, thank you. Senator1171Blackburn.11721173                     HON. MARSHA BLACKBURN,1174                  U.S. SENATOR FROM TENNESSEE11751176    Senator Blackburn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and1177congratulations to each of you on your nominations. It was good1178to see the Secretary yesterday afternoon and to hear from him.1179Sounds like he is busy, and working, and making some positive1180changes. And we appreciate that.1181    Mr. Bartrum, I want to come to you. I'm a little confused1182over your statement regarding community care and want to get1183you to clarify your comments on that. Now, the Chairman and I1184are both working on the community care issue, and when I talked1185yesterday afternoon with the Secretary, I know he is trying to1186simplify community care.1187    But you made a comment that you need to balance direct care1188and community care, and I want you to drill down what would1189that balance be, and why would you not say let's prioritize1190what the vet wants, and if they want community care, let's make1191that a more simple process for them to access that care?1192    Mr. Bartrum. So, ma'am, I am saying that. If veterans want1193community care, we need to allow them to have community care.1194And when I say balance it, right now the bureaucracy is stacked1195against them----1196    Senator Blackburn. Totally.1197    Mr. Bartrum. The bureaucracy is stacked against them. If I1198get confirmed, then I can work to help take out some of the1199bureaucracy.1200    As a senior advisor, I'm very limited in what I can do. As1201the Under Secretary, if I'm confirmed, then I can work to take1202out the bureaucracy that's there. But the best medical interest1203allows us to take out part of the bureaucracy. Changing what1204the contracts are, as we do the next generation of contracts,1205allows us to take out part of the bureaucracy. Building in the1206infrastructure, you know, we also need to allow that if a1207veteran chooses that they want to use the VA healthcare system,1208the direct care system, that they have that choice to use that1209direct healthcare system. So, it's working with them on where1210do they want to get their care and making sure that it's not1211bureaucracy that's getting in the way. It's where they want to1212get their care that's best for them.1213    Senator Blackburn. And they can access it in the most1214efficient----1215    Mr. Bartrum. Yes.1216    Senator Blackburn [continuing]. And effective way. Okay. I1217appreciate that because talking about balancing, I think made1218it sound like you were going to do a little bit over here and a1219little bit over there, but not prioritize the vet in making1220those decisions.1221    And talking to most veterans in Tennessee, they much prefer1222having community care because we've got 63 rural hospitals in1223our state. We've got 260 rural clinics, and they would much1224prefer going to something in their community because it enables1225them to get a neighbor or a friend to drive them and drop them1226off, and somebody doesn't have to take off work for the day and1227get them to Nashville or Memphis.1228    So, this is an issue. We've got a lot of veterans in1229Tennessee, and this is an issue that comes up regularly as we1230meet with the VSOs and as we meet with veterans' groups. And1231what they want is community care. They appreciate what the1232Chairman has done. They are crazy about my bill, which would1233get rid of that bureaucracy and give them the choice, put them1234in the driver's seat.1235    And when you meet with these veterans groups and you hear1236what they go through and how long they have to wait, it is1237embarrassing. And I know you all inherited a problem at a very1238broken VA, and the fact that you had people that were working1239in VA healthcare that worked 5 days out of a 10-day work period1240in person and VA benefits where they worked 2 days out of 10 in1241person, you can't get your job done if you are not showing up1242to work.1243    So, we appreciate that, but I think it is important that1244you speak with clarity on these issues and that we know you're1245not going to go soft on community care because that is what the1246veterans are wanting to see expanded.1247    Mr. Bartrum. Thank you, ma'am. And just to be clear, we're1248working to put veterans first and veterans' choice first. And1249so, community care is a primary focus and we've got to get all1250of the bureaucracy out of the way so that the veteran has the1251choice.1252    And as a veteran of 40 years myself, and the son of a1253veteran, I can tell you that I will continue to work for1254veterans, enlist the veterans, because the why that I chose to1255take this nomination was those are my brothers and sisters.1256Those are the people that I've gone to battle with. They're my1257battle buddies, and those are the people that I'm here to1258serve. And so, serve them, I will.1259    Senator Blackburn. Great. And Mr. Workman, I'll send1260something to you for a QFR. The electronic health records in1261that transition that is there from active duty to veterans,1262I'll send it. I'm out of time, so I'll send that to you for1263written.1264    Mr. Bartrum. Thank you, Senator.1265    Senator Blackburn. Thank you.1266    Chairman Moran. Senator Blackburn, thank you. We have two1267Senators that are present. At the end of those questioning,1268we're going to try to bring this hearing to a conclusion and1269make the vote at the very end. We have two votes one of which1270has already started. So, now it's Senator Hirono's time, and1271you may ask your questions.12721273                     HON. MAZIE K. HIRONO,1274                    U.S. SENATOR FROM HAWAII12751276    Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and welcome to1277both of you. I ask the following two initial questions of all1278nominees before any of the committees on which I sit. And so, I1279will ask you these questions. We can start with Mr. Bartrum and1280then Mr. Workman. Since you became a legal adult, have you ever1281made unwanted requests for sexual favors, or committed any1282verbal, or physical harassment, or assault of a sexual nature?1283    Mr. Bartrum. No.1284    Mr. Workman. No.1285    Senator Hirono. Have you ever faced discipline or entered1286into a settlement related to this kind of conduct?1287    Mr. Bartrum. No.1288    Mr. Workman. No.1289    Senator Hirono. Okay. For Mr. Bartrum, in April 2025, VA1290awarded a 5-year contract for certain medical supplies to1291Brightstar Innovations, the company you formed and formerly1292led. Do you have any sort of ongoing financial stake in this1293company, in Brightstar?1294    Mr. Bartrum. No.1295    Senator Hirono. So, the ethics agreement that you signed in1296accordance with your nomination to this role indicated you1297would not participate personally or substantially in matters1298involving Brightstar for one year, beginning with your1299resignation from the company in January 2025. Particularly1300given your role in other contract related matters in the1301department, did you participate personally or substantially in1302awarding Brightstar the April 2025 contract?1303    Mr. Bartrum. No, I have no knowledge that they even have a1304contract.1305    Senator Hirono. Okay. So, you can see--well, by the way,1306was this contract with Brightstar the first contract that1307Brightstar received from the VA?1308    Mr. Bartrum. When I was at Brightstar, when I ran1309Brightstar, we had no contracts with the VA.1310    Senator Hirono. I'm sorry, I can't hear you.1311    Mr. Bartrum. No, we had no contracts when I was at1312Brightstar with the VA. So, as far as I know, it must be their1313first.1314    Senator Hirono. So, I think that you can understand why I1315would ask these questions because the fact that this is the1316very first contract that Brightstar got and you happen to just1317leave Brightstar and join the VA, you can see where certain1318questions like those that I asked would arise.1319    Again, for you, it's important for any person serving the1320role of the Under Secretary of Health to understand that1321reducing veteran suicide, and you've already been asked by1322another Member of this Committee the importance of paying1323attention to veteran suicides, which unfortunately is a1324continuing challenge. So, it is a priority for many of us in1325this Committee.1326    And we recently had a hearing on the Veterans Crisis Line,1327and given this administration's decision to fire VCL staff,1328seemingly without regard to the impact it would have, can you1329reassure me that under your purview, there will be no cuts to1330staffing or funding, and no reorganizational decisions that1331limit access to VCL for veterans and others served by it?1332    Mr. Bartrum. So, I can assure you that while suicide has no1333single cause, it has lots of supporters to prevent it like1334yourself, and me, and the Secretary, and the President. And so,1335we will do what we can to ensure that we continue to support1336the Veterans Crisis Line and to ensure the veterans have access1337to the Veterans Crisis Line when they need it and however they1338need it.1339    Senator Hirono. So, was that a yes?1340    Mr. Bartrum. Yes.1341    Senator Hirono. Okay. Because please know that for a lot of1342young people, the awareness that the hotline or there was some1343funding cuts to veterans access to suicide prevention programs1344is a matter of major concern for them.1345    Now, when Secretary Collins was before our Committee, I1346asked him with regard to pausing certain programs, including1347veterans participation in clinical trials. And if you're a1348veteran participating in a clinical trial, and suddenly those1349programs or trials are put on pause and with no idea when1350you're going to be able to access whatever drugs are being1351provided or access to medical care under the clinical trials, I1352asked him, well, what clinical trials, how many veterans are1353involved in participating in these clinical trials? He said he1354would get back to me. So far, not. So, I'm asking you for this1355information. Do you have it?1356    Mr. Bartrum. I don't have the number of veterans who are1357involved in clinical trials, but I will get back to you with1358that for the record. But what I can say is that no clinical1359trials have been paused, and we have exempted from the hiring1360freeze, all folks who work in the----1361    Senator Hirono. Did you say that no clinical trials are on1362pause?1363    Mr. Bartrum. That's my understanding.1364    Senator Hirono. No. So, that would've been good if the1365Secretary had said, ``Oh, by the way, we're done with the1366pause, and all of the veterans who are in these trials are1367getting the services, the medical care and the medications that1368they need.'' That's your testimony that they are all resumed in1369their clinical trials.1370    Mr. Bartrum. Yes. My understanding is that we have not1371paused. We do not have any paused clinical trials due to hiring1372freezes or exemptions. We've exempted those.1373    Senator Hirono. Then perhaps you could give me the number1374of veterans who are involved and participating in these1375clinical trials that are no longer all possible. Well, in all1376of the clinical trials. I would like to have that information.1377Mr. Chairman.1378    Chairman Moran. I'll let Mr. Bartrum respond.1379    Senator Hirono. Can you get us that?1380    Mr. Bartrum. We'll get back to you for the record, yes.1381    Chairman Moran. Let me use this as an opportunity to1382indicate we're always looking for the VA to be much more1383prompt. And we've had significant challenges in getting1384information that Committee members, but also this Committee,1385has specifically asked from the Department of Veterans Affairs.1386And I don't know, it may have apply to the Department of Labor,1387too, from time to time. But it would be greatly appreciated if1388you and those that you work with would be more forthcoming more1389quickly.1390    Mr. Bartrum. We will, sir.1391    Chairman Moran. Thank you. Senator Tillis.13921393                       HON. THOM TILLIS,1394                U.S. SENATOR FROM NORTH CAROLINA13951396    Senator Tillis. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be quick. Number1397one, Mr. Bartrum, you're going to most likely get confirmed,1398and you're going to most likely come to several oversight1399hearings that are going to ask you how your work on this secret1400mission to completely privatize the VA is going.1401    It's a narrative that's been here. I've been here 10 years,1402and I think anybody in their right mind needs to know it makes1403no sense to be 100 percent brick and mortar, nor does it make1404any sense, for the reasons that you've said, to be pure1405community care. The VA can point to several best practices, and1406several instances, and several communities that they need to be1407there. And I, for one, believe that that you've answered the1408questions to my satisfaction. I don't think anybody who knows1409anything about the organization would come to any other1410conclusion.1411    Mr. Workman, I've got a chiropractor named Bender, an1412optometrist named Iler, and a dentist named White. So, Workman,1413going for Assistant Secretary for Labor just makes sense to me.1414    Mr. Workman. Thank you, sir [laughter].1415    Senator Tillis. Here's another thing that we've talked1416about for your--and congratulations to your family. Are those1417your kids behind you there?1418    Mr. Workman. Yes, sir.1419    Senator Tillis. Congratulations to you, and Mr. Bartrum,1420too. For 10 years I've been here, we've talked about we need to1421fix the TAP program. And for 10 years I've said that what we1422need to do is have the right analytics coming out of the DoD,1423and we will be successful when we have a TAP classroom of one.1424    The problem that you have now, if you go into the1425Transition Assistance Program, you got some of the more senior1426people that may have, you know, financial sort of literacy at a1427different level than you're going to have some kid just coming1428out, they may have their earbuds in, are watching something on1429their phone while they're punching the ticket to go through1430TAP. We all know that that happens. It's a disservice to those1431kids to put them in the same classroom for someone else1432punching the ticket.1433    Do you know whether or not there's any sort of incentive or1434back review on the extent to which that TAP program has been1435proven beneficial to the students? In other words, some way to1436measure in an after action whether or not that TAP program, and1437the instructors for that matter, are held up to a standard on1438efficacy and ultimate result for the TAP program?1439    Mr. Workman. Well, Senator, I thank you for the question. I1440have not been in VETS down at the Department of Labor. I can1441assure you, if confirmed, and I get into VETS, we are going to1442take a look at that.1443    Senator Tillis. My guess is the answer is no. And I came1444from large organizations where metrics matter, and my guess is1445the way that we're finally going to get a TAP program that1446makes sense and does right by our warriors, our veterans, is to1447just focus on that. Have that as a goal.1448    I know it will take time, it will take years, it will not1449be completed in your tenure, but I'm really tired of people1450talking about it. And I think if we're intellectually honest1451with ourselves, it's been a bipartisan failure to substantially1452change the TAP program since you went through it.1453    Mr. Workman. Absolutely.1454    Senator Tillis. And we owe our service members more, and we1455need to be instructed by information coming out of the1456electronic health record and everything else in the DoD to do1457right by them--what I want to do, the only thing I saw in your1458resume that I'd like to spend some more time on, and we're not1459going to do it here, but I'd like your commitment to talk a1460little bit about this large organization, if you're confirmed,1461that you're going to inherit--and you've got a great resume.1462    As a matter of fact, about the only lapse in judgment that1463I've seen in your resume is you're trying to run for Lieutenant1464Governor in Ohio a while back. But other than that, you look1465pretty solid. You're clearly a patriot.1466    But I'd like to, if I can just get a commitment, maybe we1467can get on a phone call or if you can come over to my office, I1468didn't get an opportunity to talk with you in advance to just1469get your sense of the people that are going to be around you1470that will have that large organization expertise that you're1471going to need. And then maybe you can convince me that that1472maybe you have some relevant experience.1473    I don't expect the President of the United States or you to1474be a subject matter expert in the organization that you're1475inheriting, but you need to have the apparatus in place to1476understand the level of complexity and the challenges you're1477going to have as a manager, having nothing to do with you being1478a warfighter or a veteran.1479    Mr. Workman. Absolutely.1480    Senator Tillis. Can I get that commitment to just follow up1481with----1482    Mr. Workman. Absolutely, Senator.1483    Senator Tillis [continuing]. What we'll share with you is1484our assessment that I've read on areas. So, we'll share bluntly1485the assessment that we've read confidentially between us, and1486we can have a good discussion on it.1487    Mr. Workman. Absolutely.1488    Senator Tillis. I look forward to having that discussion. I1489thank you all for being here today. Thank you, Mr. Chair.1490    Chairman Moran. Senator Tillis, thank you. Both of you1491gentlemen, a lot of what I know about veterans is what I hear1492from them. A lot of what we respond to is what we call casework1493in which a veteran has brought to us a problem they're having1494with the VA. And I want to just highlight the importance of1495your ability to help us solve that veteran's problem.1496    But I want to take that a step further. Often, I'm1497successful in getting the VA to respond to a specific case that1498we bring to their attention, but I'm quite certain that in many1499instances, it's not a one-place circumstance. And so, it's nice1500to solve a problem for a veteran. It would be better to solve1501the problem for that veteran and every other veteran that's1502experiencing something similar from the VA.1503    And in addition to that, often I'm told that something has1504changed at the Department of Veterans Affairs, but when I'm1505back in Kansas, no one at the VA knows what I've been told. So,1506there's a lot of disconnect between something that is decided1507here as a policy and it being, not only not implemented, but1508not even known that the policy has changed.1509    I assume that you would confirm to me that in the things1510I've just described, you will be an ally in making certain that1511an individual, but all veterans are cared for when we raise1512these topics, and you'll take greater steps than have occurred1513in the past to make sure that the people who work at the VA1514know what the new rules and policies are.1515    Mr. Bartrum. Sir, as we talked before about this topic, I1516can assure you I will be on the front line on that fight with1517you.1518    Chairman Moran. Thank you. And Mr. Bartrum, I'm going to1519put you to the test already. We're working with the Ranking1520Member, Senator Blumenthal, the Department of Veterans Affairs,1521and the Congressional Budget Office to move my community care1522bill, the ACCESS Act. And we're working on a CBO score that1523requires some information from the VA, that my understanding is1524the VA has--we need the VA to provide additional clarification1525information to CBO on that bill. And we're particularly talking1526about Section 103.1527    I don't know what the delay has been, but I'm asking you to1528commit to make sure the VA delivers that information, ASAP, but1529no later than tomorrow. Would you take this task back and see1530if we can get that information so we can move forward with this1531ACCESS Act?1532    Mr. Bartrum. Yes, sir.1533    Chairman Moran. Thank you. Anything that either one of you1534would like to add to what you said or response, any of your1535responses that deserve any clarification, or----1536    All right. Well, we thank you both for being here. Thank1537you for your service in particular. Any Member of this1538Committee who would like to send questions for the record to1539one of the nominees or both of the nominees should do so as1540soon as possible, but no later than the close of business1541tomorrow. And then we would we would expect and appreciate a1542timely response to our Committee members questions so that your1543nominations can be fully considered.1544    Chairman Moran. With that, the hearing is adjourned.1545    [Whereupon, at 5:21 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]15461547------------------------------------------------------------------------15481549                            A P P E N D I X15501551------------------------------------------------------------------------15521553------------------------------------------------------------------------15541555                       Submissions for the Record15561557------------------------------------------------------------------------15581559    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]15601561------------------------------------------------------------------------15621563                        Nomination Material for15641565                              JOHN BARTRUM15661567------------------------------------------------------------------------15681569    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]15701571------------------------------------------------------------------------15721573                        Nomination Material for15741575                            JEREMIAH WORKMAN15761577------------------------------------------------------------------------15781579    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]15801581                                  [all]