Hearings to examine programs for justice-involved veterans.

1[Senate Hearing 119-384]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                                                      S. Hrg. 119-38456                 PROGRAMS FOR JUSTICE-INVOLVED VETERANS7=======================================================================89                                HEARING1011                               BEFORE THE1213                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS14                          UNITED STATES SENATE1516                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS1718                             SECOND SESSION1920                               __________2122                             APRIL 15, 20262324                               __________2526       Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs2728[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]2930        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov3132                                __________3334                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE3563-515 PDF                WASHINGTON : 202636=======================================================================3738                 SENATE COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS3940                     Jerry Moran, Kansas, Chairman41John Boozman, Arkansas               Richard Blumenthal, Connecticut,42Bill Cassidy, Louisiana                  Ranking Member43Thom Tillis, North Carolina          Patty Murray, Washington44Dan Sullivan, Alaska                 Bernard Sanders, Vermont45Marsha Blackburn, Tennessee          Mazie K. Hirono, Hawaii46Kevin Cramer, North Dakota           Margaret Wood Hassan, New47Tommy Tuberville, Alabama                Hampshire48Jim Banks, Indiana                   Angus S. King, Jr., Maine49Tim Sheehy, Montana                  Tammy Duckworth, Illinois50                                     Ruben Gallego, Arizona51                                     Elissa Slotkin, Michigan5253                     David Shearman, Staff Director54                Tony McClain, Democratic Staff Director5556                           C O N T E N T S5758                              ----------5960                             April 15, 20266162                                SENATORS6364                                                                   Page65Hon. Jerry Moran, Chairman, U.S. Senator from Kansas.............     166Hon. Richard Blumenthal, Ranking Member, U.S. Senator from67  Connecticut....................................................    1168Hon. Thom Tillis, U.S. Senator from North Carolina...............    1369Hon. Mazie K. Hirono, U.S. Senator from Hawaii...................    1570Hon. Margaret Wood Hassan, U.S. Senator from New Hampshire.......    1671Hon. Angus S. King, Jr., U.S. Senator from Maine.................    1972Hon. Jim Banks, U.S. Senator from Indiana........................    307374                               WITNESSES75                                Panel I7677Clyde ``Butch'' Tate II, Major General, U.S. Army (Ret.), Chief78  Counsel, All Rise..............................................     37980The Honorable Lawton Nuss, Chief Justice (Ret.), Kansas Supreme81  Court..........................................................     58283Corey Schramm, Veteran, U.S. Army................................     68485David ``Mac'' MacEwen, Brigadier General, U.S. Army (Ret.),86  Director, Veterans Justice Commission, Council on Criminal87  Justice........................................................     88889Rose Carmen Goldberg, Associate Teaching Professor and Director90  of the Veterans Clinic, University of Washington School of Law.     99192                                Panel II9394Dana DiGiacomo, Assistant Director, Reentry Services Division,95  Federal Bureau of Prisons, U.S. Department of Justice..........    269697Thomas O'Toole, MD, Acting Assistant Under Secretary for Health98  for Clinical Services, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs.....    2799100                                APPENDIX101                          Prepared Statements102103Clyde ``Butch'' Tate II, Major General, U.S. Army (Ret.), Chief104  Counsel, All Rise..............................................    39105106The Honorable Lawton Nuss, Chief Justice (Ret.), Kansas Supreme107  Court..........................................................    44108109Corey Schramm, Veteran, U.S. Army................................    47110111David ``Mac'' MacEwen, Brigadier General, U.S. Army (Ret.),112  Director, Veterans Justice Commission, Council on Criminal113  Justice........................................................    49114115Rose Carmen Goldberg, Associate Teaching Professor and Director116  of the Veterans Clinic, University of Washington School of Law.   131117118Dana DiGiacomo, Assistant Director, Reentry Services Division,119  Federal Bureau of Prisons, U.S. Department of Justice..........   139120121Thomas O'Toole, MD, Acting Assistant Under Secretary for Health122  for Clinical Services, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs.....   142123124                        Questions for the Record125126Department of Veterans Affairs response to questions submitted127  by:128129  Hon. Richard Blumenthal........................................   147130131                        Statement for the Record132133Manuel ``Manny'' Gomez, U.S. Navy Veteran, IAVA Cavalry Member...   151134135                              PROGRAMS FOR136                       JUSTICE-INVOLVED VETERANS137138                              ----------139140                       WEDNESDAY, APRIL 15, 2026141142                                       U.S. Senate,143                            Committee on Veterans' Affairs,144                                                    Washington, DC.145    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 3:38 p.m., in146Room SR-418, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Jerry Moran,147Chairman of the Committee, presiding.148149    Present: Senators Moran, Tillis, Banks, Sheehy, Blumenthal,150Hirono, Hassan, and King.151152             OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JERRY MORAN,153               CHAIRMAN, U.S. SENATOR FROM KANSAS154155    Chairman Moran. Everyone, welcome to the Senate Committee156on Veterans' Affairs hearing today. I'm excited about the157hearing that we're having. It's one I don't think we've--this158topic is not one that has received a lot of attention. I'm glad159it is at least receiving more today, and I thank our witnesses.160Got enough room? Everybody good? Okay. I thank our witnesses161for being here.162    I especially want to welcome two of my friends from my law163school days. Both have had significant careers since we164graduated. Major General ``Butch'' Tate, who is one of our165witnesses today, and is one of the drivers of veterans courts166in our state, along with the former chief justice of the Kansas167Supreme Court, Lawton Nuss. Again, these two are the folks I168know best when it comes to these issues, and they are169relentless on behalf of veterans and veteran justice.170    All of our witnesses provide examples of why we should work171to support veterans when they transition out of the military,172and the value they add to communities and our country. After173their service, when their transition goes well, all of us do174that. We need to make certain that the veterans who carry scars175of unhealed wounds, of visible and invisible, are not176forgotten. When left untreated, these can often lead or177contribute to veterans' involvement in the criminal justice178system. According to the Veterans Justice Commission,179represented today by General MacEwen, 31 percent of veterans180report having been arrested at least once in their lives,181compared to only 18 percent of the general population. Veterans182with PTSD or TBI diagnosis are more than 50 percent more likely183to experience criminal justice involvement.184    While there is no one-size-fits-all solution to this185problem, I am encouraged by the array of community-based186programs supporting justice-involved veterans and their187families. I'm particularly supportive of the Veterans Treatment188Court (VTC) models since Johnson County, a Kansas--it's a189suburb of the Kansas side of Kansas City, opened its first190veteran treatment court in 2016, and an additional five Kansas191counties have followed suit. And I'm looking forward to hearing192about the impressive journey that one Kansan, one veteran court193graduate, Corey Schramm, who's with us here today, I'm194interested in hearing his story. Thank you, Corey, for making195the trip, and thanks to your team from Johnson County in196joining you here today.197    According to All Rise, represented here by Chief Counsel198General Tate, the average national completion rate for199treatment courts is nearly 60 percent. Approximately, two-200thirds higher than probation, and more than twice the rate of201probationers with substance use disorders. This data202demonstrates that the cases of justice-involved veterans are203best handled by experts who understand that a veteran's204experience is different than that of a civilian.205    Veterans Treatment Courts are tangible investments in those206who served our country, and the results that we've seen speak207for themselves. I will continue to prioritize federal support208for Veterans Treatment Courts in this Committee, as well as my209role in the Senate Appropriations Committee. This year, the210annual CJS appropriation, we provided--that bill provided $4211million to the Department of Justice to establish the National212Center for Veterans Justice. Through the National Center, I213hope to see veterans in Kansas and across the country benefit214from a coordinated DOJ resource designed to improve the215outcomes of justice-involved veterans by closing the gap216between research, policy, and the front line of practice.217    This afternoon, we'll discuss where Congress, DOJ, VA, and218local communities where they've made strides in delivering on219these promises that we've made to those who served. We'll also220discuss where the improvements are needed to make programs221stronger, more sustainable, and more successful by putting the222veteran first.223    I was encouraged to see DOJ's March release of a notice of224funding availability for Veteran Treatment Courts, followed by225their commitment to brief the Committee on both their plans for226the establishment of the National Center and the technical227assistance funding to support the training of treatment court228staff and their partners nationwide. These developments reflect229a welcome focus on justice-involved veteran community. I look230forward to hearing from federal, state, and local partners that231are here with us today, and to learn more about how this232Committee can support them.233    I'm going to--at this point, I normally yield to the234Ranking Member, Senator Blumenthal. He's on his way. He will be235here. He'll say his opening statement for that arrival. And let236me introduce the panel. Testifying on today's first panel is237Major General Clyde ``Butch'' Tate, retired, chief counsel of238All Rise; Kansas Supreme Court Chief Justice Lawton Nuss,239retired--there's a message here to me----240    [Laughter.]241    Chairman Moran [continuing]. As well as Corey Schramm, a242veteran of the U.S. Army; Brigadier General David MacEwen,243retired, director of Veterans Justice Commission; and Rose244Carmen Goldberg, associate teaching professor, and director of245the Veterans Clinic at the University of Washington School of246Law.247    General Tate, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.248249                            PANEL I250251                              ----------252253      STATEMENT OF CLYDE ``BUTCH'' TATE II, MAJOR GENERAL,254           U.S. ARMY (RET.), CHIEF COUNSEL, ALL RISE255256    General Tate. Chair Moran, Ranking Member Blumenthal, and257distinguished Members of the Senate Committee on Veterans'258Affairs, it's an honor to testify today.259    Senator Moran, we thank you and the Committee for260recognizing that while saying, ``Thank you for your service,''261is important and appreciated, as a Nation, we must follow those262words with the actions necessary to meet our core national263obligation to care for our veterans. I'm honored to be here264with this panel of veterans, innovators, thought leaders in our265justice system, and especially Mr. Corey Schramm, an Army266veteran who has witnessed our justice system at its very best.267    I'm a proud Army veteran, and equally proud to be the son268of a 36-year combat-wounded Army infantryman who taught me how269to take care of soldiers and their family members. It's a270lesson that I hope I took both into the Army, and my life after271the Army. A few months after joining All Rise as its chief272counsel, I was visiting courts, training on best practices,273speaking with stakeholders, and listening to veterans and their274families, I realized then, and to this day strongly believe,275that Veterans Treatment Courts showcase our government,276judiciary, and communities at their very finest.277    To be sure, the vast majority of veterans thrive because of278their military service. For many of us, it was the most279rewarding time of our professional life, despite--or maybe280because of its hardships and sacrifices. Yet, for a small281percentage of our veterans, however, their experiences; the282sights, the sounds, the events, the memories, the resulting283trauma, the attempts to bury that trauma, are too much to284overcome without help. Without our help, they are left behind,285and some who straggle behind engage in increasingly risky286behavior that puts them at the crossroads of the criminal287justice system. In society, just like any military formation,288you can only move as fast as your slowest runner. And like the289military, we cannot and should not accept leaving someone290behind.291    Today, as we move toward programs that provide solutions,292let's be mindful that those veterans challenged by their293service do not want to be seen as a percentage on a294spreadsheet. They and their families are real people, who are295in that very small segment of society, who chose to serve us,296but who have experienced circumstances that altered who they297are, how they think, and how they act.298    So, what do we do? I submit that as a Nation, we have a299choice, and I hope we can learn from how we chose to treat my300father's generation of Vietnam War and Vietnam-era veterans,301and do better. That is, choose to implement programs structured302to consider and address the unique experiences and303circumstances of veterans, including those in our criminal304justice system.305    The choice we make must be multifaceted and include306Veterans Treatment Courts with the person-centered care they307provide. Veterans Treatment Courts transform the way our system308identifies, assesses, and treats veterans in the justice309system, and assembles the resources and parties to directly310serve veterans--and these courts work. Beyond the dedication311and commitment of all involved, these courts work because they312are multidisciplinary and non-adversarial, merging resources313and stakeholders into a singular effort. They work because they314are trained to follow key components and evidence-based315practices. They are treatment- and accountability-focused.316Public safety matters.317    Now, the community partners: housing, employment,318counseling, transportation, education, pro bono legal clinics,319and others are as key to making these courts work as the320judges, prosecutors, defense counsel, law enforcement,321probation supervision clinicians, veterans justice outreach322(VJO) employees of the VA, and importantly, volunteer veteran323mentors, the latter being our secret sauce.324    Now, like many complex challenges, there's no one solution325fits all. That's why we are excited that today, in addition to326Veterans Treatment Courts, there's yet another path forward to327improve outcomes for our veterans, because of the congressional328support for the National Center for Veterans Justice. We are329excited at the possibilities of the Center. We are also excited330about the synergy when current and future programs, such as331Veterans Treatment Courts, law school veterans support clinics,332and university-wide student veteran centers are located in333proximity to each other, to make it less challenging for a334veteran to receive the support they need.335    As I conclude--and I hope you'll indulge me one final336military analogy to highlight the critical aspect of the path337forward for current and future programs. There's a theme338running through each of the programs and participants I've339mentioned, including court teams, law enforcement, veteran340mentors, VJOs, and that is the importance of training and341expert assistance to the overall success of each. Military342units, for example, may have personnel who are mission-343focused--the best equipment and technology, SOPs, tactics,344skilled and experienced leadership, but to succeed, all units345must be trained.346    And the proficiency gained from training can't be one and347done. Success must be sustained. If we leave success to chance,348we are not making the choice that will improve outcomes. As the349data shows, training and technical assistance will improve350graduation rates, which leads to decreased recidivism, and to351the very reason that we are all assembled here today, and that352is to improve the outcomes for justice-involved veterans.353    Chair, thank you again for your time, for convening this354hearing, and for helping ensure that as a Nation, we make the355right choice. Thank you.356357    [The prepared statement of General Tate appears on pages35839-43 of the Appendix.]359360    Chairman Moran. Chief Justice Nuss.361362  STATEMENT OF HON. LAWTON NUSS, CHIEF JUSTICE (RET.), KANSAS363                         SUPREME COURT364365    Mr. Nuss. A combat veteran told me he would have been366better off being killed in Afghanistan, instead of coming home367and being arrested for committing a civilian crime. As he368described his shame to me, ``I went from hero to villain.''369This justice-involved veteran suffered from unhealed PTSD. As370has been said about such veterans, the painful paradox is, that371fighting for one's country can render one unfit to be its372citizen. Fortunately, this veteran later became one of the373first graduates of the Veterans Treatment Court, VTC, in374Johnson County, Kansas. And I'll talk more about this and other375Kansas VTCs, because our experience could be a model for how376other jurisdictions establish new VTCs and enhance existing377ones.378    Before doing that, let me say I'm a Marine Corps veteran,379and, as was mentioned, I'm the former Chief Justice of the380Kansas Supreme Court. What has not been said is that I left the381court with three years remaining in my term, so I could devote382more time to help my fellow veterans. Chairman Moran, Ranking383Member Blumenthal, and Members of the Senate Committee on384Veterans' Affairs, I'm honored to speak before you today in385both of those capacities.386    Now, to begin, in 2015 Kansas had no VTCs. Today, we have387six, and we are working to establish more. Johnson County was388our first one. Now, some people insisted that because it is our389state's wealthiest county, that only a few of its veteran390residents could possibly have committed crimes. Until the391sheriff was called, and he said 60 of his inmates were392veterans. That fact helped expose the need for a VTC.393    Another VTC obstacle was funding. I had to tell judges the394judicial branch had no funds available, but these and other395creators agreed to take on extra, unpaid work and opened the396first Kansas VTC in 2016. It has been thriving ever since,397thanks in substantial part to later grants from the Bureau of398Justice Assistance (BJA). So, we thank Congress for these399appropriations.400    How do we know this VTC has been thriving? Well, consider401that 89 veterans have graduated from this program, and only402five of them have been arrested for committing later crimes.403That means 84 have been rehabilitated, a nearly 95 percent404success rate. 84 people who returned to being contributing405members of their families, local communities, and American406society.407    So, how did Kansas get five more VTCs? Well, for starters,408this VTC encourages all those who are considering one, to come409watch their court proceedings. There, the visitors also talk410one-on-one with their peers, for example, the VTC judge with411the visiting judge, and the VTC probation officer with the412visiting probation officer. Along with that, this VTC tells413these visitors just how beneficial All Rise's training and414technical assistance had been for it, and will be for their415future VTCs. I participated in three of those training sessions416years before joining the All Rise board of directors, and I can417independently confirm their worth.418    Also, BJA funding is helping to expand our VTCs statewide.419The judicial branch's specialty court program manager gets All420Rise's notices of BJA funding opportunities and, after421informing all courts, she and her grant writer help the422responding courts apply for these grants to establish and423enhance VTCs. The judicial branch also hosts a statewide424specialty court conference each fall. Additionally, a Supreme425Court justice serves as liaison to the specialty courts. Either426she, or I, or both attend the opening and graduation ceremonies427of our VTCs, and people like Chairman Moran and Congresswoman428Sharice Davids accept our speaking invitations there. So, word429spreads of the Supreme Court's ongoing support of VTCs.430    We also emphasize the obvious money saved by avoiding431incarceration and keeping a veteran in the community under432court supervision, which promotes their rehabilitation. Without433this opportunity, we face the resultant financial costs of434future incarceration for their new crimes. We also face the435hidden costs of these new crimes, such as the extra time and436burdens imposed on those working in the criminal justice437system.438    In response to such information, last fall our newest VTC439was created in Douglas County, the home of the University of440Kansas, also known as KU. And there, the VTC joined two441existing KU veteran-helping entities to form the Kansas442Trifecta. One is the KU Law School's Veterans Legal Support443Clinic, and thanks to your Committee chair, this clinic was444created with federal funding and provides free legal services445to veterans across the state.446    The third in the trifecta is the Lt. Gen. William K. Jones447Military-Affiliated Student Center where students, including448current and former military and their families, can come for449services such as support from the VA's VetSuccess on Campus450program, and guidance and answers regarding the GI Bill and VA451benefits, all while enjoying the camaraderie of a familiar452military-connected environment. The trifecta entities can share453information and refer clients to one another when necessary.454    To conclude, I thank you all again on behalf of my fellow455veterans.456457    [The prepared statement of Mr. Nuss appears on pages 44-46458of the Appendix.]459460    Chairman Moran. Justice, thank you very much. Now, to Mr.461Schramm.462463         STATEMENT OF COREY SCHRAMM, VETERAN, U.S. ARMY464465    Mr. Schramm. Chairman Moran, Ranking Member Blumenthal, and466Members of the Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs, thank you467for the opportunity to speak with you today. My name is Corey468Schramm, I'm a husband and a father of two great kids, and I'm469a proud veteran of the United States Army. Today, I serve as an470adult case manager at the Johnson County Mental Health Center,471and a member of the Johnson County Criminal Justice Advisory472Council. I am also a grateful graduate of the Johnson County473Veterans Treatment Court.474    After 9/11, I joined the Army and deployed to Iraq three475times. I am proud of my service. In Iraq, we had structure and476routine. We knew we had each other's backs, and the mission477kept us focused. Back home, I was still learning how to be a478husband and a father. Just when I felt I was beginning to build479a relationship with my daughter, I would have to leave again. I480understand now that my drinking and drug use was my way of481coping with a life I didn't know how to live. In June 2020,482things came to a breaking point. I spent five hours in a483destructive episode at my house involving a weapon. I have no484memory of the incident, but I woke up charged with a felony and485facing incarceration. I didn't know if I would even be welcome486back in my home again.487    This is where my story of recovery begins. A Veterans488Justice Outreach specialist with the VA is who introduced me to489the Veterans Treatment Court. Veterans Treatment Court changed490my life and the life of my wife and children. My first day in491Veterans Treatment Court happened to be a graduation ceremony.492I watched veterans with similar backgrounds as mine hug the493judge and thank the police officers who had arrested them. They494were applauded and thanked for their service. It was like495nothing I'd ever seen.496    The program gave me structure, accountability, and support.497I knew where I needed to be and what was expected of me, and498for the first time since leaving the military, I felt like part499of a unit again. I received community-based services and VA500care, including treatment and group therapy, and I started to501see a future for myself and my family. The Veterans Treatment502Court was with me every step of the way. When I needed help,503they were there to provide it. When I stumbled, they held me504accountable. One of the most important parts of my journey was505my mentor, Navy veteran and retired Rear Admiral Ed Phillips,506who is here with me today. He stood by me every step of the way507and showed me what recovery could look like.508    Through the VA Vocational Rehabilitation Program, I went509back to school and got an associate's degree in addiction510counseling. I remember sitting at the kitchen table with my511daughter doing our homework together, it was one of the small512moments that helped us rebuild our relationship. This year, my513wife and I will celebrate our 20th wedding anniversary, and we514will also be taking our daughter to college at K-State, Kansas515State University. My son and I are about to attend our sixth516consecutive year attending NASCAR races at the Kansas Speedway.517    I was nervous to graduate, but the program prepared me for518this challenge. I am sharing my story today because there are519countless veterans who do not have access to Veterans Treatment520Courts. Veterans Treatment Courts are not a shortcut; these521programs are rigorous. They demand honesty, discipline, and a522willingness to change. But they work.523    As you consider the future of Veterans Treatment Courts, I524urge you to continue supporting and expanding these programs,525because behind every statistic is a veteran like myself;526someone who served, who struggled, and who, with the right527combination of accountability and support, can find their way528back. Or, as Ed would say, ``Get your good name back.''529    Thank you for the opportunity to share my story. I look530forward to your questions.531532    [The prepared statement of Mr. Schramm appears on pages 47-53348 of the Appendix.]534535    Chairman Moran. On the anniversary and off to college, and536gratitude and expression of our support and thanks to the537Admiral. General MacEwen, you are now recognized.538539  STATEMENT OF DAVID ``MAC'' MACEWEN, BRIGADIER GENERAL, U.S.540ARMY (RET.), DIRECTOR, VETERANS JUSTICE COMMISSION, COUNCIL ON541                        CRIMINAL JUSTICE542543    General MacEwen. Thank you, Chairman Moran, Ranking Member544Blumenthal, and Members of the Committee. I'm Matt MacEwen, I545served in the Army for 33 years, and retired 11 years ago as546the Adjutant General of the Army. I'm here today representing547the Council on Criminal Justice, where I serve as the Director548of the Veterans Justice Commission. The Council is an549independent, nonpartisan think tank and invitational membership550organization that advances the understanding of the Nation's551criminal justice policy choices and builds consensus for552solutions.553    In 2022, the Council assembled the Commission to figure out554why so many men and women who have served our country are555winding up in the criminal justice system. It issued 11556recommendations and several research publications. I've557submitted the details of all the recommendations in my written558testimony. Each year, about 200,000 service members leave the559military. Most transition successfully, but some face560challenges.561    Veterans are more likely than nonveterans to be arrested,562and tens of thousands are incarcerated. This involvement is563often driven by combat-related trauma, traumatic brain injury,564loss of benefits, and gaps in identification and intervention.565The way we currently manage struggling veterans undermines566recruitment, jeopardizes the health and safety of our veterans,567their families, their communities, and ultimately, national568security.569    The Commission made several recommendations for changes at570the Pentagon. One, creating an Under Secretary of Transition to571mitigate the issues of fragmented delivery of services and572creating accountability in one office. Two, creating a573validated risk-needs assessment that identifies service members574at the highest risk for post-transition problems, and575incorporating evidence-based rehabilitative practices into the576management of disciplinary and other performance issues. And577three, establishing a network of joint transition centers,578residential programs aligned with VA facilities to assist579higher-risk service members before they leave service.580    A critical element of the Commission's plan addressed what581we refer to as the ``commanders dilemma'', the tension582commanders face between maintaining unit readiness versus583supporting underperforming service members or supporting584transition. To prioritize operational readiness, commanders585look for the fastest way to replace service members who are not586available for unit transition, disciplinary, or medical587reasons. A commander may not have the flexibility to allow an588individual to participate in congressionally mandated TAP, or589receive evidence-based support for the kinds of minor590disciplinary infractions seen in the civilian justice system.591    Instead, the system defaults to granting administrative592discharges. An other-than-honorable discharge is an593administrative death sentence, locking service members out of594benefits that support a smooth transition. I speak from595experience on this: I recommended or approved without knowing596the full impact those kinds of discharges, and I regret that to597this very day.598    The Commission made several recommendations for changes at599the VA. First, Congress must direct a return to the plain text600of the 1944 GI Bill, providing VA eligibility to all former601service members not discharged under dishonorable conditions.602Second, repeal of the 1999 rule change, and return to providing603VA healthcare to incarcerated veterans. VA medical services are604more appropriate and effective than standard correctional care.605And third, eliminate administrative barriers to housing606eligibility and prevent benefit arrearages.607    When veterans do enter the criminal justice system, they608confront a patchwork of interventions. These programs vary609substantially across jurisdictions, and many fall through the610cracks. VTCs have been pioneering life-saving interventions for611thousands of veterans. Yet, despite their expansion, we found612that only about 15 percent of the veterans were able to take613advantage of these courts. We developed a complementary policy614framework for those without access to a VTC. It's been adopted615by the American Legislative Exchange Council, and is under616consideration in several states.617    Finally, regarding the National Center on Veterans Justice618proposed by the Commission, Congress authorized $4 million for619the Center in January, and we're grateful for that. The Center620should act as a hub for improving the success of justice-621involved veterans by identifying and replicating best practices622across the country and establishing proper program evaluation,623so we can invest in what works. If implemented properly, it624will revolutionize how the system treats the unique cases of625our veterans.626    Most veterans return stronger from their service, but too627many still need our help. It's nothing short of tragic that628those who once wore the cloth of our Nation, now wear the cloth629of incarceration. We sent them, we used them, now we must do630better and stand by them, ensuring that we have the support to631return them to their families, their communities, and their632country. Thank you.633634    [The prepared statement of General MacEwen appears on pages63549-130 of the Appendix.]636637    Chairman Moran. Thank you, sir. Professor Goldberg.638639STATEMENT OF ROSE CARMEN GOLDBERG, ASSOCIATE TEACHING PROFESSOR640 AND DIRECTOR OF THE VETERANS CLINIC, UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON641                         SCHOOL OF LAW642643    Professor Goldberg. Chairman, Ranking Member, and Members644of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify645today on the pressing topic of how we can better serve justice-646involved veterans. The veterans clinic I teach at, the647University of Washington School of Law, provides free legal648services to low-income veterans. Many of our clients are649justice-involved veterans. In this role, and my decade in650veterans law, I have seen firsthand the significant harms and651barriers that justice-involved veterans face, and how this too652often results in incarceration.653    While these barriers are many, I will use my time to focus654on three main points. First, while Veterans Treatment Courts655are a highly effective intervention that improves outcomes for656justice-involved veterans, not all veterans are allowed to657participate. In some jurisdictions, veterans with less-than-658honorable discharges are locked out. This runs counter to the659spirit of Veterans Treatment Court, which recognize that post-660service criminal conduct often stems from mental health661conditions during service stemming from service traumas. The662same is often true for military misconduct that results in a663less-than-honorable discharge.664    In addition, veterans with less-than-honorable discharges665stand to gain the most, in many instances, from the integrated666and structured treatment that Veterans Treatment Court provide.667They have higher rates of incarceration, higher rates of668homelessness, and are at higher risk of suicide than other669veterans.670    While many Veterans Treatment Courts connect veterans with671VA services, there are a variety of options available for672veterans with less-than-honorable discharges who the VA has not673recognized as VA-eligible. VA provides care to other-than-674honorably discharged veterans for military sexual trauma-675related conditions, service-connected conditions, and to676veterans who served at least 180 days and served in combat677regardless of discharge status, with some very limited678exceptions. Mental healthcare may also be available through679local, state, and community sources.680    Second, justice-involved veterans are deprived of earned681benefits. VA is supposed to reduce incarcerated veterans'682benefits under certain conditions. For instance, for veterans683convicted of a felony who are incarcerated for more than 60684days, starting on day 61, if they are rated at 20 percent or685more, their benefits are reduced all the way down to 10686percent.687    However, VA does not consistently make these reductions.688This results in what is known as an overpayment. Upon release,689a veteran may receive the surprising news that they are690indebted for these overpayments, and that VA is garnishing691their benefits. Overpayments thus threaten veterans' successful692reentry into society. In addition to preventing overpayments,693VA should liberally waive overpayment debts linked to694incarceration under its existing authority to waive debt as a695matter of equity.696    Third, incarcerated veterans are urgently in need of VA697mental healthcare. Veterans with service-connected mental698health conditions are more likely to be incarcerated, and699confinement aggravates their conditions. VA's current position,700however, is that it cannot provide this care. This exclusion701from basic care is inequitable and harmful.702    I was therefore pleased to see the Get Justice-Involved703Veterans BACK HOME Act introduced recently and strongly support704it.705    Senator King. By Senator King.706    Professor Goldberg. By Senator King, yes. The most707important part.708    [Laughter.]709    Professor Goldberg. This bill would create a pilot program710under which VA provides telemental health treatment to711incarcerated veterans. This would fill an important gap as712mental healthcare in correctional facilities is inadequate. And713only VA provides specialized treatment for conditions unique to714military service, such as post-traumatic stress disorder and715traumatic brain injury linked to military sexual trauma or716combat. I encourage the expansion of this important program to717include veterans with less-than-honorable discharges. They718stand to benefit greatly given their higher rates of719incarceration and mental health conditions, and as noted, VA720has options for providing this care.721    I also applaud Senator King's bill for requiring automatic722resumption of VA benefits after incarceration ends. Timely723resumption of benefits can mean the difference between living724on the streets and a high risk of recidivism, versus safe725housing as a launchpad for a healthy life. Yet, it can take726many months and much advocacy for veterans to get their full727benefits back.728    Finally, I enthusiastically support the launch of the729National Center for Veterans Justice by DOJ as a hub for730collecting and disseminating best practices. I hope this731mission will encompass the different areas of policies that732impact justice-involved veterans. I thank the Committee for733your commitment to addressing the root causes of justice734involvement by veterans. By focusing on building programs that735heal veterans' service traumas instead of punishing them, we736can truly achieve justice for veterans.737738    [The prepared statement of Professor Goldberg appears on739pages 131-138 of the Appendix.]740741    Chairman Moran. Professor, thank you as well.742    I'm going to turn to Senator Blumenthal, the Ranking Member743of the Committee, for his opening statement and the beginning744of his questions.745746         OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL,747         RANKING MEMBER, U.S. SENATOR FROM CONNECTICUT748749    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I apologize750that I was late being here, and I have to leave to go to the751floor to speak there. But I want to thank all of our witnesses752for being here and your leadership on this critically important753issue. Special thanks to Professor Goldberg, who served on my754staff for a while. Thank you for your continued service.755    You know, I became involved in this issue very hands-on756through a veteran in New Haven. His name is Conley Monk.757Conley, a Marine Corps veteran who served in Vietnam, got into758trouble with his sergeant because he suffered from PTSD. Nobody759knew what PTSD was at that time. Nobody had any idea that760shell-shock, as it was called, or whatever the terminology of761the time, might cause people to get into trouble. Conley got762into a lot of trouble. He received a less-than-honorable763discharge, and so he was ineligible for treatment.764    When he had a drug problem, he was unemployed. He was on765the streets. And he turned his life around, and then brought a766lawsuit against the Department of Defense through the Yale Law767Clinic. I partnered with the Yale Law Clinic, trying to help768him with that action, and went through several secretaries of769defense who were sympathetic but felt they couldn't do anything770about a ``bad paper'' discharge--even though it was factually771and morally unjust--until Chuck Hagel. And Secretary Hagel did772the right thing: he established that people could more easily773and more accessibly come to the boards of review. And Conley774upgraded his discharge, and he is now an advocate for all775veterans. I saw him just a week or so ago.776    But there are probably thousands of Conley Monks out there777who messed up. You know, they got into trouble. Maybe it was778caused by trauma from their service, underlying risk factors779that were never treated, obstacles to successful transition, or780lack of structured environment. Everybody thinks veterans are781these paragons of virtue, and many are. But there are also a782lot of guys who just, you know, they come out of the service,783and they had problems before they went in, and those problems784may not have manifested then.785    So, my question to this panel is: how do we create more786awareness about these opportunities? Because I find even now,787years later, most veterans are unaware of the possibilities,788the opportunities, to upgrade their discharges from less-than-789honorable. Obviously, we're not talking about dishonorable790discharge. We're talking about bad paper, less-than-honorable791discharges. And one of my hopes is that we can create more792awareness. So, I'll just maybe turn that question over to the793panel. I don't know who might want to start the answer.794Professor Goldberg?795    Chairman Moran. Answer your former boss, please.796    [Laughter.]797    Professor Goldberg. Yes. I must, yes. Thank you for the----798    Senator Blumenthal. She was my boss.799    [Laughter.]800    Professor Goldberg. No, no. Definitely not. Thank you for801the great question, Senator. My clinic works on a lot of802discharge upgrades. So, first, I want to confirm that there is803a great need for increased awareness. There are, unfortunately,804a lot of rumors going around that are quite prevalent. One is805the automatic 6-month discharge upgrade. I've heard this from806veterans discharged decades ago. I've heard this from recently807discharged veterans. They are put through the administrative808separation process, they're told, ``Oh, don't worry, just sign809on the line. No need to go to a hearing or anything. It'll be810automatically upgraded. You'll get your benefits back.'' In811fact, it was so prevalent--I'm not sure if it's still there--812but for a while on the Navy Discharge Review Board website, it813had a big notice ``Beware. There is no automatic 6-month814discharge upgrade.'' I have found that a lot of veterans are815not aware that, as you mentioned, there are liberalized rules.816There are memos known as the Hagel memo and the Kurta memo that817require the discharge upgrade boards to provide liberal818consideration to veterans who were discharged consequent to--819say, an undiagnosed mental health condition, or who experienced820military sexual trauma, and the effects of that resulted in821what was misinterpreted as misconduct. So, I think there is a822great need to spread awareness about both the availability of823discharge upgrades and the fact that there have been824improvements under the law, as you said, thanks to the Yale Law825School Veterans Legal Clinic, in large part, such that veterans826who may not have had hope now have some hope.827    But I will say, I do think improvements need to be made in828the process, and veterans are right to be somewhat hesitant.829Wait times, I believe that the Army's right now is about four830years, and there are some very serious due process issues. So,831I think we need to raise awareness, particularly for veterans832who were discharged consequent to mental health conditions,833that this may be available to you, but also make it more834timely, and enhance the due process protections.835    And just one additional point. I think a lot of awareness836needs to be raised regarding an alternative remedy that I find837very few veterans are aware of, which is that the VA has its838own character-of-discharge review process that has its own839issues, but tends to be faster. You have a right to a hearing.840This process is where the VA makes an entirely separate841determination where they can find a veteran what's called842``honorable for VA purposes.'' They can't change the DD214,843that's DoD property, but if they make this favorable finding,844veterans gain access to disability benefits, healthcare,845everything except the GI Bill. So, that can be literally life-846changing for veterans, but there's very little information out847there.848    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you. Thank you all. I apologize.849Thank you, Mr. Chairman.850    Chairman Moran. Thank you. Let me call on Senator Tillis.851852                       HON. THOM TILLIS,853                U.S. SENATOR FROM NORTH CAROLINA854855    Senator Tillis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for856being here. And congratulations, Corey. I've actually had a857long relationship with Veterans Treatment Courts in North858Carolina. In fact, the first one we had created there was back859in 2013, when I was speaker of the House, and man, they work.860And I tell you, if my colleagues haven't been to a graduation861of a Veterans Treatment Court, you owe it to yourself. It's862like the swearing-in ceremony for citizenship, and it's really863heartwarming, and it's a lot of fun to speak to the graduates.864    We actually--our strategy in North Carolina has been trying865to encourage courts first, in and around VA facilities, because866we know that they kind of work hand in hand. And I think we've867done a good job of that all the way from near Fort Bragg out to868Asheville. There's virtually no major VA facility in the State869of North Carolina that doesn't have a VTC nearby, and I think870it works. The thing that I think we need to do to get the scale871and consistency, is start talking about best practices and872models.873    In the bipartisan Safer Communities Act, a bill that I was874part of leading the negotiations, we established additional875funding for Veterans Treatment Courts. We need to make sure876that the take rate is as high as it can be. That was a $14877billion investment in behavioral health, and I want to make878sure that we spend that money, particularly in family courts879and Veterans Treatment Courts, because the money is there.880    And I should back up and say a part of that--this is a881great cure for the veterans who can get access to it, but we've882still got to work on prevention. And it goes back to what I've883been saying for the 11 years that I've been on this Committee:884we've got to get to a transition process that's an audience of885one. We've got to get some stickiness, so that people like886Corey, once he gets discharged, has some connection to a887community. And we all know the ones who are most likely to run888into trouble are the ones who are least likely to be connected889to the VA. That's indisputable.890    So, you know, the question becomes: how can we--a lot of891these things are initiated at the state and local level,892although, as the example that I've used, we actually did893congressional-directed spending for Rowan County just recently894for another VTC in North Carolina. Is there some sort of a895consensus around states that are doing it right? I'm not896necessarily saying that North Carolina does it right. We're897just one model that's creating good results. But how do we898start coalescing around maybe a national standard based on best899practices, since these courts have been out here for a while,900and see to what extent we can do to encourage the state and901local governments to build out more capabilities and provide902more access?903    And then my second question really relates to every hearing904I've ever gone to on transition. We all say the same thing. I905don't feel like we've made measurable progress. So, either906validate my theory that we've still got a lot of work to do, to907really get to where we have the stickiness with the at-risk908service members, or tell me I'm all wrong, we're making real909progress, we just got to build on it. Mr. Tate, we'll start910with you. General Tate.911    General Tate. Thank you. Excellent questions, both of them.912I will tell you that the way we ensure fidelity to the model,913the way we ensure best practices and evidence-based procedures,914is through training and technical assistance. I can't915understate the value that our training and technical assistance916program creates when we talk to the teams about here's what917works.918    Senator Tillis. And I think there's a clear correlation919between that training and the efficacy of the court. People are920well-intentioned, but they're not all executing as well,921they're not getting the graduation rates we'd like to see. But922please continue.923    General Tate. Yes, sir. And sometimes, when they think they924know the right way to do it, they actually may do more harm925than good. And so, I think through training and technical926assistance, we can certainly avoid that happening. The states927that seem to be doing it better than others are those that928invest the time in training and technical assistance. So, it's929sort of a related answer, but I think that's how we ensure that930we move forward in the right direction and try not to do more931harm than good.932    Senator Tillis. My time is going to go over, and I933appreciate the chair recognizing me. But what I'd really like,934if you all could think about it, and even Senator Blumenthal935and I have worked on the issue over the years on bad paper, we936know one of the things here is that veterans may not think that937they have an option. We know that the VA has allowed some938people in on an exception basis with a less-than-honorable939discharge. We need more of that. We need certainty. But we also940need to know where these veterans are before a problem. So, if941you all could maybe submit for the Committee, but at least for942my office, some suggestions around best practice models, things943that are working, we'd be very happy, in my remaining time in944the Senate, to see if we can move the ball a little bit further945along. Mr. Chair, you have my support to that end. Thank you946all.947    Chairman Moran. Thank you, Senator Tillis. Senator Hirono.948949                     HON. MAZIE K. HIRONO,950                    U.S. SENATOR FROM HAWAII951952    Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, I know that953there are a lot more veterans of--Justice Nuss said something954like over 100,000 veterans are incarcerated, but maybe somebody955has updated numbers, and only a small percentage of the956incarcerated veterans go through this program. Can somebody957explain to me why that is the case? And are there criteria for958participating in the program? First of all, it sounds as though959the program really works, and if so, more veterans should have960the opportunity to participate. Would somebody like to respond?961    Mr. Nuss. Yes, Senator.962    Senator Hirono. Justice Nuss.963    Mr. Nuss. Yes. Thank you----964    Senator Hirono. Can you speak into the mic, please?965    Mr. Nuss. Yes. Is that better? Now it's on. Someone's966trying to tell me something [laughter.] Does it work now?967    Senator Hirono. No.968    Mr. Nuss. Just have to be persistent. Several answers, I969believe, Senator, to your question. First of all, there are970just an awful lot of jails in this country where they have no971idea if the people in their incarceration are veterans. And the972simple matter of asking people when they are being booked,973``Have you served in the military?'' You don't say, ``Are you a974veteran?'' Because the younger folks think it's old guys like975General Tate and me. And then if you say ``Have you served in976the military?'' Sometimes they will still lie, because they are977ashamed, because they basically took an oath to support you and978me when they entered the military. And some of them are also979afraid that the mere fact they've been arrested means that they980will lose their VA benefits. So, asking the question helps, but981then the check on that is to use two VA electronic programs:982one is called VRSS, and the other is called SQUARES. You can go983online using that program and find out if the person who is an984inmate in your jail actually served in the military.985    The second thing is--and let me say that this then helps986convince the local folks, the courts included, as to whether987you have a need in your area for a VTC. As I said in my988testimony, Johnson County thought we don't need one, and then989they found out they had 60 veterans incarcerated in their jail.990The same thing happens across the state--I'm sorry, across the991country.992    And so, once you have established a need, then you should993go forward and try to put something together. And what I have994talked with my colleagues is, you don't have to wait until you995have the deluxe version before you open a VTC. You can start996very small and then over time increase what you want to do for997these folks. You can admit people to your program who have bad998paper discharges. If you don't care about the VA providing999benefits, and you have a local community health center or1000something like that, then you can proceed. For example, that's1001something that Johnson County does.1002    Senator Hirono. Thank you. I note that from the summary of1003the Commission's report--I think this is the report--that they1004don't know how many veterans are incarcerated. You don't have1005this kind of information. So, there must be some way to do1006better in terms of identifying the people who would benefit1007from this program. There are over 700 VTCs all across the1008country. There are four in Hawaii, and when they are1009participating in them--and I realize it's not one-size-fits-1010all--it really decreases the recidivism rate and all of that.1011So, the more veterans who are able to participate, the better,1012right?1013    General MacEwen. Senator, we absolutely agree that more1014VTCs are better, but we also know that they simply don't reach1015enough of the population----1016    Senator Hirono. Yes.1017    General MacEwen [continuing]. As you've described. Many1018VTCs exclude people with violent behavior, which is oftentimes1019the type of behavior that some of our veterans get involved in.1020Thirty-five percent exclude those with what we call bad paper.1021And so, we came up with a complementary thing to help bridge1022that gap in our recommendation, a model policy that gives a1023judge in a non-VTC jurisdiction the ability to act like a VTC1024without the bells and whistles, so to speak, of a full VTC,1025because we know that the VTC system works. So, like Chief Nuss1026said, if you don't have the VA capabilities, use community-1027based stuff, and give a statutory background or backbone to a1028judge in a jurisdiction.1029    Senator Hirono. So, we need to provide flexibility. So, for1030all of the panelists, I know that you all support VTCs, and so1031I will be reviewing the Commission's recommendations. And I1032take it that all of you would support the recommendations that1033the Commission came up with. Is that correct? Okay. Thank you,1034Mr. Chairman.1035    Chairman Moran. Thank you. Senator Hassan.10361037                   HON. MARGARET WOOD HASSAN,1038                U.S. SENATOR FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE10391040    Senator Hassan. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I really1041appreciate this hearing, and I am grateful to all of the1042witnesses not only for being here today, but for your advocacy1043and for your service. Thank you very much.1044    I want to follow up really on the question that Senator1045Hirono had just posed to Chief Nuss. But I want to ask General1046Tate if he has anything to add, which is really we know the1047value of these courts, we know how they decrease recidivism,1048but we also know that not every jurisdiction, as we were just1049talking about, has one of these courts, and it can be hard to1050ensure that eligible veterans are identified and connected to1051treatment.1052    So, Chief Nuss, you just talked about some of the things we1053can do. General, I just wanted to kind of add on to that. Are1054there other things we can do to identify veterans who are1055eligible for these courts and for the connected services?1056    General Tate. Thank you. Excellent question, because that1057is an age-old problem.1058    Senator Hassan. Yes.1059    General Tate. I think it starts with--again, I go back to1060training and technical assistance. Part of our training at All1061Rise includes law enforcement who are likely to be the parties1062at first contact with the offender, and training them to1063understand to ask the right questions, and training them to1064appreciate what this veteran may be going through. So,1065education is part of it. Advocacy is part of it. We've talked1066about the National Center for Veterans Justice. Part of that1067will be a state and local engagement, it will be convening at1068the national level. It'll be all of these stakeholders who1069really, really want to make a difference coming together and1070learning: Okay, this is how we identify; this is how we assess;1071and this is how we treat. And I think that leads to success.1072    To Senator Tillis's question, he wanted to know when do we1073get to the bottom line? When are we there? I think the answer1074is, we are there when there is a veterans treatment court1075within reach of every eligible veteran. And to be sure, they1076are not for every veteran who's in trouble. That's where the1077assessment part comes in. The high-risk, high-need, that's who1078will benefit the most. If it's a veteran who isn't high-risk or1079high-need, then let's--don't put them through such a high-1080accountability, high-touch sort of environment. Let's get them1081treated; they don't have to face the same sort of1082accountability that someone embedded in that treatment program1083faces. So, it's not necessarily for every veteran who gets in1084trouble. We have to be careful on how we assess. Thank you.1085    Senator Hassan. Well, I appreciate that very much, and I1086think that's something we can all work on together. I was1087struck--I think it was when Chief Nuss was talking about not1088asking somebody if they are a veteran. We found when we were1089trying to increase access to veteran-informed care in New1090Hampshire, that we had to really train medical providers to1091ask, ``Have you ever served?'' Or, ``Were you ever in the1092military?'' Not, ``Are you a veteran?'' And that was for me, a1093civilian, a revelation.1094    So, Chief Nuss, I wanted to ask you another question. You1095are doing incredible work, and I love the story about how the1096effort in Kansas has grown. You mentioned that grants from the1097Bureau of Justice Assistance have helped overcome funding1098obstacles. What more can Congress do to help facilitate the1099creation and operation of Veterans Treatment Courts? And1100Brigadier General, you were also talking about that. What can1101we do to support our state and local partners?1102    Mr. Nuss. Well, thank you, Senator. The first answer that1103comes to my mind is increase the appropriations that would go1104to BJA.1105    Senator Hassan. Okay.1106    Mr. Nuss. And as the Chair pointed out, those recent1107figures came out, I think maybe three or four weeks ago, I1108believe $26 million has been appropriated. And for some reason,1109there are some entities around the country who do not apply for1110those grants. I don't know why, but they somehow need to be1111educated that the money would be available.1112    I have also spoken with some federal court judges, and they1113are not covered by those appropriations. One of them told me1114that they don't have the money for an additional probation1115officer who can handle veterans and a Veterans Treatment Court1116program, and so they don't have any program for them other than1117trying to put that veteran defendant in contact with the VA----1118    Senator Hassan. Okay.1119    Mr. Nuss [continuing]. So, a VJO can come provide some1120services. But they don't have a program where they say if you1121are a veteran, you come in, we can divert you from this crime1122if you go through our 18-month program.1123    Senator Hassan. Okay.1124    Mr. Nuss. And several courts have said the federal courts1125don't get the benefit of those appropriations through BJA. And1126for some reason, even though the tribal nations are--and we1127have, I think, 575 federally recognized tribal nations in the1128country--very few of them apply for these funds. So, I don't1129know if Congress can do anything to try to stir their interest1130or their notice of this availability.1131    Senator Hassan. All right. Well, I appreciate that. I'm1132going to submit one more question to the record for all of you.1133And just to kind of highlight something that I had hoped to get1134to is, we have been talking about Veterans Treatment Court for1135veterans who get involved with the criminal justice system. I1136think it's important to note that we often overlook how civil1137legal issues can impact veterans. So, I'm going to ask all of1138you for your thoughts about the benefits that veterans can gain1139from receiving help with civil legal issues, and how that can1140help reduce recidivism rates, and perhaps prevent involvement1141with the criminal justice system, too.1142    Senator Hassan. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chair.1143    Senator King [Off mic.]--fine with me.1144    Senator Hassan. That'd be great. Thank you. Yes--I mean,1145it's everything from housing to----1146    Chairman Moran. I'm interested in--like, is this legal aid?1147I mean, where does this go?1148    Senator Hassan. Yes. It's housing, family law, I mean--so,1149I'd love to explore that.1150    General Tate. Senator, my experience is you won't find a1151veteran in veterans treatment court with just one problem.1152    Senator Hassan. Right.1153    General Tate. You will find layers of problems, all of1154which led to that unfortunate intersection with law1155enforcement. We're talking housing, employment, education,1156counseling, substance use disorder treatment. Every possible--1157landlord-tenant issues, because; if I get kicked out on the1158street; I no longer have a place to live; my employer fired me1159because I don't have any place to live; I can't get to work;1160can't get my car; et cetera, so I've got to do something to1161feed my family, and that's how this happened.1162    So, that's why it's so critical to have the involvement of1163these community partners. As I said at the outset, I believe1164government, the judiciary, and community partners have never1165looked better than they look with Veterans Treatment Courts.1166So, we've got to get all those partners together, get them in1167the courtroom, along with the veterans justice outreach officer1168to start coordinating, to swarm, if you will, to remove those1169obstacles. So, you're exactly right, incredibly important to1170address those issues. And that's where the pro bono clinics,1171the law school clinics, all come in handy. Thank you.1172    Senator Hassan. Thank you.1173    General MacEwen. And, Senator, the one thing the Commission1174found was we start looking at this way too late.1175    Senator Hassan. Yes.1176    General MacEwen. We start looking at it when they become1177justice-involved, and we have to start looking at it while1178they're still in the military. Because when you think about it,1179we spend $9 billion a year taking individual people, civilians,1180and transforming them into warriors----1181    Senator Hassan. Right.1182    General MacEwen [continuing]. Into 800 different1183specialties, from firefighters to fighter pilots, over a period1184of weeks. And then we put them in front of things, and do1185things to them, and expose them to things. And then at the end,1186we spend a couple of days--maybe 40 percent get through it--and1187we spend $140 million on transition and don't spend any amount1188of effort to transition them from warrior back to civilian, and1189then we don't use any evidence-based process to look at who's1190at risk. So, then we're surprised that some have a problem. So,1191we ought to spend a little bit of time looking at those--and1192that's what the Commission found--we ought to spend some time1193looking at those things that could cause someone to turn into--1194have a problem with justice involvement.1195    Senator Hassan. Well, again, first of all, Mr. Chair,1196thanks for the indulgence, and Senator King as well. And thank1197you all for your expertise, and I look forward to continuing to1198work with all of you.1199    Chairman Moran. Senator King.12001201                    HON. ANGUS S. KING, JR.,1202                    U.S. SENATOR FROM MAINE12031204    Senator King. General, to follow up, I also serve on the1205Armed Services Committee. And for the last 10 or 12 years, my1206repeated urging is I believe that the Defense Department should1207spend as much time, money, and effort on transition out as they1208do on recruiting in. We're making some progress, but nothing1209like what it ought to be. Let me ask you about the bill that1210was mentioned, the ``Get Justice-Involved Veterans BACK HOME''1211pilot program for VA to provide mental health services for1212incarcerated veterans. To me, that's a give me. I mean, that's1213obvious. But we have to start with a pilot program. I1214understand the Commission has recommended returning to the 19441215GI Bill, the plain language, which would allow most veterans to1216access VA services. Why did the Commission make that1217recommendation? Give me a little background on that.1218    General MacEwen. Thank you, Senator. The Commission made1219that recommendation because there was a huge discussion. We had1220researchers take a look at this as the Commission did its work.1221In 1944, the Congress spent weeks looking at who should be1222eligible for VA benefits when they were establishing the1223original GI Bill, and they said only the worst of the worst1224should not get benefits: dishonorable discharge. That was----1225    Senator King. That was the cutoff.1226    General MacEwen. That was the cutoff. And so, that was the1227rule. And then over time, by rule, not by the intent of1228Congress, by rule, it's been chipped away. And so, all of a1229sudden----1230    Senator King. Narrowing them.1231    General MacEwen [continuing]. Narrowing the class of1232citizen who had served that no longer was eligible for1233benefits. So, what happened over time is those most in need of1234benefits are denied benefits. And so, we said, well----1235    Senator King. Like someone that's incarcerated.1236    General MacEwen [continuing]. That doesn't make sense.1237Well, someone incarcerated with a felony conviction loses it.1238But someone who--an example I would use for you, sir, someone1239who had military sexual trauma and then becomes a ``bad1240soldier'' because they're dealing with that military sexual1241trauma, and so they're not showing up to formation. And so, the1242commander says this is not a good soldier, and so they1243administratively discharge him and give him bad paper. They1244give him bad paper because he's not showing up at work, not1245because of the underlying condition, because they don't have an1246evidence-based process to take a look at them. They discharge1247him, and he or she doesn't get healthcare at the VA.1248    Senator King. Well, just for the record, do all of you1249agree that VA mental health benefits should be available to1250incarcerated veterans?1251    Professor Goldberg. Yes, sir.1252    General MacEwen. Yes.1253    Senator King. That's a yes from everybody. Thank you. And1254the other thing that's in this bill, and it goes to one of the1255points we were talking about before, is requiring the VA to do1256the research to find out how many incarcerated veterans there1257are. I mean, to me, that makes a lot of sense. Does that--1258Chief, is that a sensible proposal?1259    Mr. Nuss. I believe it is. And as kind of a piggyback to1260that, Senator, I'm in favor. I'm not sure who had proposed this1261during the past year, but as you leave the military, you are1262automatically enrolled with the VA. You don't have to have1263that----1264    Senator King. You're saying that should be the case.1265    Mr. Nuss. Should be the case.1266    Senator King. It is not the case.1267    Mr. Nuss. It is not the case. Correct.1268    Senator King. We're working on legislation to allow1269veterans to enroll in VA healthcare before they leave active1270duty. I think that's a sensible----1271    General MacEwen. Senator, we--the Commission recommended1272automatic enrollment for a 2-year period.1273    Senator King. Right.1274    General MacEwen. Currently, they can voluntarily enroll on1275what's called an EZ form, which everyone that I've ever spoken1276to the form is called ``easy'' but it's not.1277    Senator King. Well, the other thing, Professor, that I'm1278interested in is--I think you touched upon this--having the1279process of restoring benefits after release be automatic and1280timely. As I understand your testimony, that can often take1281months and a lot of paperwork and difficulty. Is that the case?1282    Professor Goldberg. Yes. What I've seen happen is the onus1283is on the veteran, both on the front end, to notify the VA that1284they are incarcerated as a change in life circumstances. You1285can imagine many veterans may not be aware that they are1286supposed to do this, and as they are incarcerated, it may not1287be easy to actually do that.1288    And then on the tail end, it is supposed to be an easy1289process for the veteran to notify the VA that they have been1290released. But what often happens is there is a very long tail1291to that. The veteran may call in, and then there's this very1292slow back-and-forth where the VA is contacting correctional1293facilities. And again, the onus falls back on the veteran to go1294back to the prison to get some kind of documentation. It can1295just kind of spiral into months.1296    But, as has been mentioned, there are data-sharing1297capabilities that are underutilized. This is a government-to-1298government process. They are entitled to have that restoration1299on day one, and they do get--are supposed to get--back pay if1300it does take many months or a year, as it sometimes happens.1301But there's no reason that should be the case.1302    Senator King. And I would mention that we made some1303progress, because it was in the Defense Bill that passed last1304year, it's now law, if the veteran has an opportunity to opt1305out of whether their home state veteran service organization is1306notified that they're coming home. In other words, instead of1307having to opt in--which people often don't do because they've1308got so many forms--now it's an opt out. And we think, we1309believe and hope, that that will significantly increase. My1310vision is to have somebody to meet them at the airport, have1311somebody from one of the VSOs or from the state veterans1312office, and start the process of here's what's available, here1313are the services, and is there a way we can help you find a1314job? Or all of those kinds of things. So, I did want to mention1315that. It was sort of an obscure provision in a 2,000-page bill,1316but I think that we're hoping that now that that's the law,1317we'll see some progress on that. Thank you very much, Mr.1318Chairman. Thank you for having this hearing.1319    Chairman Moran. Thank you, Senator King. I just now have a1320few questions. Let me first start with this conversation that1321has involved several members, including Senator King's just1322recently. The Transition Assistance Program, TAP, is supposed1323to help veterans move from active duty to life after active1324duty. I don't think--I'll speak for myself, the program has not1325been sufficiently utilized, supported, or emphasized, and I1326think we're missing a lot of opportunity. And I never thought1327about this in regard to the veteran treatment court until1328today.1329    But we've been pushing, particularly the military, to have1330a higher priority in assisting their active-duty men and women1331during transition. And a lot of that conversation originates1332with the concern about at what point in time a service member,1333soon to be a veteran, most vulnerable to commit suicide or1334mental health issues? And I think the conclusion is that's the1335most fragile time. And so, for a different reason, we've been1336pushing greater efforts by the VA, but perhaps more1337importantly, greater efforts by the military, the Department of1338Defense, to implement a solid TAP program.1339    But the conversation we have been having suggests to me1340that there may be another opportunity or another purpose for1341TAP, related to what you all are trying to advocate for, is the1342connection between those who serve and the world after their1343service. Anyone want to assist me in fleshing out that thought?1344    General MacEwen. Sir, if I could--I think two things on the1345TAP program and why it maybe doesn't work. And I ran the TAP1346program for the Army--excuse me for criticizing, and so I'm1347criticizing myself in some ways. When the Commission did its1348report, we understood that the military classified 41 percent1349who transitioned in a year's period as not fully prepared1350through the TAP program. Twenty-two percent of those never even1351attended TAP, even though they were congressionally mandated1352to. TAP has never been fully, robustly evaluated. Many with1353other-than-honorable discharges don't attend TAP.1354    And so, we know that we don't use a validated risk-needs1355assessment tool. And part of the reason TAP doesn't exist is1356because of what we call the ``commanders dilemma.'' I talked1357about it briefly. But what we do is we put the commanders in an1358impossible position. And it is a position where we say,1359``Commander, worry about readiness, and, oh, by the way, send1360them to TAP.'' I was talking to a staffer today whose husband1361works at Davidson Army Airfield. He's an aircraft crew chief1362now, and he's thinking of getting out. Is his commander going1363to say take care of your aircraft for missions, or is he going1364to send him to TAP? When push comes to shove, he's going to1365send him to take care of that aircraft, and he may not send him1366to TAP.1367    Now, what we said is, in the case where he really is at1368risk, if you do a valid risk-needs assessment tool, you pull1369him out of the operational force like he was in basic training,1370where he's not available for an operation. You've got to pull1371him out, put him in a joint transition center, get him the help1372he needs, and then send him on his way.1373    Chairman Moran. Is the key, General, what you said is if1374they do a valid assessment?1375    General MacEwen. It absolutely is, but you have to do it.1376This is revolutionary. It has to be revolutionary, because,1377otherwise, you can throw more money at it. You can say1378SkillBridge, and SkillBridge is a wonderful program, if you're1379available. That's always the caveat. Send them to SkillBridge,1380if operational readiness allows.1381    Senator King. Under the law, aren't they required--[off1382mic.]1383    General MacEwen. Sure, it does, but they don't comply.1384That's what we found time and time again.1385    Chairman Moran. And I think I've heard this before about1386the dilemma. You had a phrase for it. I've heard this dilemma1387probably from generals I know in the neighborhood is that the1388focus is defending the country.1389    General MacEwen. Yes. And so, what we've done is tried to1390come up with a logical solution that solves the problem, so you1391don't put this commander in a paradox that you're asking him to1392fail.1393    Chairman Moran. So, is--let me go back. Even though TAP has1394its challenges today for this evident reason, you've got to1395prioritize what a soldier is doing in the last time of service.1396If TAP is occurring, if the transition program is taking place,1397is there a role in that process that affects veteran treatment1398court availability and knowledge?1399    General MacEwen. I don't believe so. I'd leave that to your1400classmates to answer.1401    Chairman Moran. They were smarter than I was then, too.1402    [Laughter.]1403    General Tate. I don't think so, because it'll be an issue1404of timing. I want us to also----1405    Chairman Moran. At that point, the problems are not1406evident.1407    General Tate. They probably are, they just aren't1408discovered yet. Because even the service member and her family1409don't know the baggage that they are carrying. It will take1410time for that to manifest. And I think we also have to be1411sensitive to the notion that these service members just want to1412go home. Number one, you're going to put a burden on the1413commander: ``Oh, here's something else to put on your list.1414This is top priority.'' I'll put it on there with all the other1415top priorities. But then second, the mindset of the service1416member: ``I just want to go home. I don't know what all this1417stuff is about.'' So, that's why the solution has to be really1418carefully crafted. But I don't think part of the separation1419will be: ``And hey, don't forget, there are Veterans Treatment1420Courts out there.''1421    It'd just be really hard to do, but that sort of advocacy1422can come elsewhere. It can come from the creation of this1423Center, thanks to Congress. Part of that creation will be state1424and local convenings, national convenings, and advocacy, where1425it'll become more widespread that the existence of those courts1426would be a tool to assist that service member. Thank you, sir.1427    Chairman Moran. If you all would help me, or help the1428Committee. In a moment, we're going to dismiss you and we're1429going to have two other witnesses take the table where you are.1430They are both high-level officials, one at the Department of1431Veterans Affairs, the other at the Department of Corrections.1432Is there something that you would want to make sure that we1433hear from you that would lend itself to an appropriate, useful1434question and answer from our next panel?1435    General Tate. I would simply like to highlight what an1436extraordinary program the VJO program is for the VA. These are1437young men and women who are dedicated, committed social workers1438who just every day get after it. So, it's a real plus for the1439VA, and that ought to be sung to the mountaintop about how good1440they are.1441    I think critical to their continued success, their1442sustained success, will be training tailored to the VJOs, so1443that we ensure that not only are they trained when they're new1444to the job because it's super demanding, especially if that VJO1445has not got military culture in their background. But it's not1446only that newcomer training, it's also the training to sustain1447their skill set. So, that's all I would ask. That really is, to1448me, a two-thumbs-up for the VA and that VJO program. Thank you,1449Senator.1450    Chairman Moran. Yes, ma'am.1451    Professor Goldberg. If I may echo that, and add to that. I1452also would like to enthusiastically support VJOs and the1453critical role they play. The latest I've heard--and don't quote1454me on this--I believe there may be around 400 VJOs in the1455country, so I'd want to know from VA how many there are1456currently and whether the staffing is adequate?1457    My local VJO is amazing, does terrific work on the streets,1458in the jails, every step of the way with veterans in Veterans1459Treatment Court, This very much ties back to our conversation1460about Veterans Treatment Courts. And VJOs are largely part of1461the success of veterans going through that. My understanding is1462that they are understaffed and overworked, and I don't believe1463their numbers have been increased in a number of years. I know1464there have been proposals, so I'd be interested to know both1465the number and whether there are plans to increase the number1466of VJOs?1467    Chairman Moran. Thank you. Notes were being taken.1468    Mr. Nuss. Mr. Chairman, if I could add to what they both1469have said. I've told VJOs this to their face. I said, ``What I1470like about you is that too many times a government agency says,1471`Oh, you've come to us for help. Well, here's a stack of1472documents or pamphlets or booklets for you to read. And if you1473see something in here you think might apply to you, come back1474and tell me, and then we'll talk about it.' '' The VJO takes1475the opposite approach. They say, `Here's the stack of pamphlets1476and documents, but I've looked through them also, and based1477upon my interview of you, here are two programs that I think1478you could benefit from. Let's talk about them and see which one1479would work best for you.' ''1480    The other thing I would say, I think Senator Tillis said1481earlier, if you've never been to a VTC graduation ceremony,1482it's well worth your time. And as far as the VJOs go, in1483Johnson County VTC, when the VTC graduate is allowed to speak1484and say how much it's meant to them, they always go over and1485hug their VJO--at least the ones I've been to. And I just think1486that speaks volumes for how important the VJOs are, how well-1487trained they should be, and how much they care about the1488veterans. And I'd like to see more of them. Thank you.1489    General MacEwen. Yes. I would say to both government folks,1490as a former government folk, to please be involved in the1491process for the National Center with the Department of Justice,1492because this has to be a whole-of-government approach, and it1493can't be stovepiped inside DOJ. It has to involve everyone if1494it's going to work to take care of our veterans.1495    Chairman Moran. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Schramm, we just heard1496how important certain people have had a role in your life in1497this process. I wanted to give you the chance to maybe do a1498couple of things. If you'd like to expand on what the program1499was like that you went through. And if you'd like to take a1500moment, how were you treated differently than someone who is1501not in the Veteran Treatment Court? You may not know that, but1502what were the aspects of that court that made a difference in1503your life? And it may just be that you want to tell us about1504your mentor, and I want to give you the chance to do that.1505    Mr. Schramm. I think the program keeps you accountable.1506Like, I was on and off probation before I went to Veterans1507Treatment Court, and when I showed up to Veterans Treatment1508Court, I thought I was just going to play the system and go1509through the motions. And boy, was I ever wrong.1510    And to go back on what everyone was saying about VJOs, my1511VJO, Michelle Parsons, is the standard VJO. She's an amazing1512person. She gave me the best piece of advice when I was going1513through, when she told me I didn't have to do this. That wasn't1514really the words I was looking for, but it just showed me the1515path that I was going to take. And as far as Ed, Ed's a legend.1516He's a great human being. He's the reason why my tie looks so1517good today. And he was just an absolute--going through the1518program, he kept me guided. He used a term called ``jungle1519rules'' that I had to google because I didn't understand what1520it was, but it just meant, you know, the court--that's their1521rules, and you just have to abide by it.1522    And that was a great deterrent, even from the smallest1523sanction. I couldn't believe how upset I got over the smallest1524sanction. But his words, ``jungle rules,'' completely took my1525train of thought elsewhere and started thinking about my1526actions instead of the overall punishment--like, what could I1527do better. Thank you.1528    Chairman Moran. All the questions, the story Senator1529Blumenthal told, your witness to the Committee, it reminds us--1530at least it reminds me, I speak for myself--that we changed the1531world one person, one soul at a time. And we need to have that1532kind of approach to how we deal with people. It's not about a1533process; it's about a relationship. And the Veterans Treatment1534Court demonstrates to me--and your testimony shows--that when1535people care about other people, you can change a life. And it's1536a great story for us to hear.1537    We're going to change panels. Incidentally, I'm trying to1538demonstrate my leadership. I think it's hot in here, and they1539turned off the air conditioning because there was some loud1540noise in the background. I said the loud noise was continuing--1541it's worth having the noise than to have the air conditioning.1542So, it's supposedly coming back on.1543    Mr. Nuss. Mr. Chairman, can I say one thing in response to1544Senator King's question about what can be done to make veterans1545aware? This story comes from a VTC graduate in Minnesota, and1546he later deployed after he had graduated and been1547rehabilitated. And he told the troops in his company about his1548experience in the VTC. And he said, ``There is no shame in1549asking for help, but there is shame in being in handcuffs.''1550And he was telling them, ``if you are struggling, go seek help.1551Don't wait until it eats you up and you commit some crime.''1552Thank you.1553    Chairman Moran. Thank you. Senator Banks, we were ready to1554move to the second panel. That all right?1555    Senator Banks. It's all right.1556    Chairman Moran. Thank you all for your testimony. Thank you1557for being here, and thanks for the work that you do.15581559    [Recess.]15601561    Chairman Moran. The Committee will reconvene for our second1562panel. The Senate has votes at 5:30, so. Dr. O'Toole is looking1563at his watch to see that he only has to be here--put up with1564this process for a short period of time. Let me welcome Ms.1565Dana DiGiacomo, assistant director of reentry services for the1566Federal Bureau of Prisons, United States Department of Justice,1567and Dr. Thomas O'Toole, welcome back. He's the Acting Assistant1568Under Secretary for Health and Clinical Services at the1569Department of Justice--I'm sorry, at the Department of Veterans1570Affairs. And I thank you both for your appearance here today.1571And we'll start with you, and let's hear what the Bureau of1572Prisons has to say, Ms. DiGiacomo.15731574                            PANEL II15751576                              ----------15771578   STATEMENT OF DANA DIGIACOMO, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, REENTRY1579 SERVICES DIVISION, FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS, U.S. DEPARTMENT1580                           OF JUSTICE15811582    Ms. DiGiacomo. Good afternoon, Chairman Moran, Ranking1583Member Blumenthal, and distinguished Members of the Committee.1584It's a pleasure to appear before this Committee to share the1585work that the Federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP) is doing to meet1586the needs of our incarcerated veterans.1587    My name is Dana DiGiacomo, and I am a career employee with1588nearly 19 years of service in the Bureau of Prisons, including1589the last eight years in the Reentry Services Division, where I1590currently serve as the assistant director. On behalf of the1591Agency, I want to thank you for the opportunity to be here1592today. It's both an honor and a privilege to speak with you. I1593would also like to take a moment to acknowledge the many1594veterans who are part of my life, my family, friends, and1595colleagues within the Bureau of Prisons. Their service and1596sacrifice is deeply respected and appreciated.1597    The BOP recognizes veterans represent a unique population1598within our federal prison system. Currently, the Bureau of1599Prisons houses approximately 7,600 incarcerated veterans, many1600of whom face service-related challenges, including physical and1601mental health conditions, as well as difficulties adjusting to1602life after military service.1603    Veterans in the BOP reflect a diverse population across all1604security levels, with the majority classified as low or medium1605security. Many maintain strong family connections, and a1606significant portion have achieved a high school diploma or1607equivalent. These characteristics highlight both the needs and1608the potential of this population, reinforcing the importance of1609targeted programming and support.1610    The BOP's Program Statement on the ``Management of Inmate1611Veterans'' provides a framework for identifying and supporting1612incarcerated veterans. This policy outlines staff1613responsibilities, training requirements, and service delivery1614expectations to ensure veterans are properly identified and1615connected to resources. Identification begins early in our1616intake process, where staff verify veteran status through1617documentation such as pre-sentence reports and military1618discharge records. This information is entered into the BOP1619systems and tracked through a centralized database, allowing1620the agency to monitor trends and ensure continuity of care.1621    Once identified, veterans are supported through a1622structured three-tier service delivery model designed to meet1623their needs at every stage of incarceration. Tier One services1624provide a foundational support through self-help resources and1625informational sessions in collaboration with the Department of1626Veterans Affairs. Tier Two services include structured1627workshops and support groups that address resilience, wellness,1628and service-related challenges such as post-traumatic stress1629and traumatic brain injury. Psychology Services plays a key1630role in delivering individualized treatment based on these1631assessed needs.1632    Tier Three services represent the most intensive level of1633programming, through our Veterans Education Transitional1634Services, what we call our VETS Unit. This is a residential1635program that operates on a community-based model, where1636participants engage in daily programming focused on education,1637skill development, and peer support. Institutions such as FCI1638Englewood and the developing unit at FCI Seagoville demonstrate1639the BOP's commitment to expanding these structured1640environments, and improving continuity of care as veterans1641transition back into the community.1642    In addition to programming, the BOP emphasizes staff1643training to ensure employees understand military culture and1644the unique needs of our incarcerated veterans. This training1645supports consistent service delivery and reinforces the BOP's1646commitment to this population. Collaboration with external1647partners is also critical to the success. The BOP maintains1648strong partnerships with the Department of Veterans Affairs and1649the Department of Labor to help support reentry planning and1650access to benefits, employment services, and community1651resources.1652    Additionally, veterans transitioning to residential reentry1653centers or home confinement are provided the opportunity to1654engage in activity with the Veterans Affairs representatives to1655access benefits, secure services, and establish continuity of1656care upon release. These efforts align with the goals of the1657First Step Act by encouraging participation in recidivism-1658reducing programs and productive activities.1659    Veteran-specific programming supports skill development,1660strengthens support networks, and improves outcomes for1661individuals preparing to return to the community. Supporting1662justice-involved veterans is not just a policy priority, it's a1663responsibility. Every individual in our custody deserves a1664second chance and the opportunity to make meaningful change in1665their lives. Our goal is to ensure that the time in our care is1666not just time served, but time that serves a purpose, equipping1667them with the tools, the support, and the opportunities needed1668to successfully return to their communities.1669    And I'm happy to respond to any questions that the1670Committee may have.16711672    [The prepared statement of Ms. DiGiacomo appears on pages1673139-141 of the Appendix.]16741675    Chairman Moran. Thank you very much. Dr. O'Toole.16761677    STATEMENT OF THOMAS O'TOOLE, MD, ACTING ASSISTANT UNDER1678SECRETARY FOR HEALTH FOR CLINICAL SERVICES, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF1679                        VETERANS AFFAIRS16801681    Dr. O'Toole. Chairman Moran, Ranking Member Blumenthal, and1682Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to1683testify today. I'm honored to highlight the work the Department1684of Veterans Affairs is doing to support justice-involved1685veterans as they navigate the legal system and reenter their1686communities.1687    VA's Veterans Justice Program (VJP) ensures that justice-1688involved veterans are identified early and connected to VA1689services that support accountability, recovery, and long-term1690stability. VJP specialists engage veterans in courts, jails,1691prisons, or community settings to encourage responsible1692decision-making, facilitate behavioral health, and other needed1693care, and support reintegration consistent with community1694safety. In fiscal year 2025, VJP served more than 60,0001695veterans through more than 500 specialists nationwide. For1696many, meeting a VJP specialist can be a turning point that1697opens the door to recovery. Early engagement helps veterans1698take responsibility while accessing treatment and supporting1699rehabilitation.1700    For nonviolent offenders, the Veterans Treatment Court1701occupy a critical role in supporting justice-involved veterans1702by offering a structured, treatment-focused alternative to1703incarceration. These courts pair judicial oversight with VA-1704supported treatment and case management. VJP specialists work1705alongside court teams to ensure veterans receive the1706healthcare, housing, and support needed to complete their1707court-defined program successfully.1708    The Veterans Health Administration (VHA) Health Care for1709Reentry Veterans (HCRV) program conducts outreach in federal1710and state prisons or jails to support veterans preparing for1711release. HCRV specialists assist with healthcare enrollment,1712identification documents, follow-up appointments, and1713reconnection to VA systems that may have lapsed during1714incarceration. This pre-release engagement is essential to1715ensuring successful community reintegration.1716    VA's Legal Services for Veterans program strengthens access1717to civil legal assistance, helping veterans address outstanding1718legal issues such as housing disputes, benefits matters, or1719family law concerns that may impede stability and successful1720reintegration. These services do not remove lawful1721accountability, but rather, they assist veterans to better1722understand their rights and responsibilities under the law and1723navigate available resources so they can meet legal1724obligations, rebuild stability, and pursue self-sufficiency.1725    The VBA complements VHA's clinical and reentry services by1726ensuring justice-involved veterans receive information about VA1727benefits and how to apply. Through its justice-involved veteran1728coordinators and homeless veteran outreach coordinators, VBA1729tailors outreach to local needs and refers veterans to federal,1730state, and community organizations. All VA regional offices1731conduct quarterly in-person or virtual outreach to veterans who1732are incarcerated at federal, state, or local facilities.1733Benefit information is disseminated to incarcerated veterans.1734VBA also provides information and training on VA benefits and1735services to community service providers and correctional1736officials.1737    From October to March of this past year, VBA conducted 4251738justice-related outreach events, reaching more than 14,0001739participants. VBA outreach personnel also coordinate outreach1740efforts for veterans at risk for homelessness who are being1741discharged or released from a facility after imprisonment,1742coordinating with VHA to provide outreach within 60 days of1743release to assist with establishing eligibility for VA benefits1744and services.1745    VA strongly supports the Department of Justice's National1746Center for Veterans Justice. It provides a national opportunity1747to standardize veteran identification, strengthen data and1748research capacity, and improve coordination across the criminal1749justice system. VA's long-standing collaboration with courts,1750jails, and prisons forms a strong foundation for this expanded1751effort, and these collaborations support VA's commitment to the1752rule of law, safe communities, and our commitment to veterans1753and their capacity to return to their communities. We1754appreciate the Committee's attention to these issues, and look1755forward to continuing our work with federal, state, and1756community organizations.1757    And this concludes my testimony. I'm happy to answer any1758questions.17591760    [The prepared statement of Dr. O'Toole appears on pages1761142-144 of the Appendix.]17621763    Chairman Moran. Thank you. Ms. DiGiacomo, do you believe1764the VA's engagement at the Bureau of Prisons is adequate,1765sufficient? How would you describe it?1766    Ms. DiGiacomo. Thank you for that question. Yes, we have a1767great partnership with the Department of Veterans Affairs.1768Actually, their staff or their contracted staff come into our1769facilities quarterly to be able to meet the needs of our1770incarcerated veterans.1771    Chairman Moran. And Dr. O'Toole, as evidenced by the number1772of times you appear before this Committee, you have lots of1773responsibilities. There's lots of things that you need to pay1774attention to. Tell me why I should be assured that Veterans1775Treatment Courts and the associated programs around them are1776not something that slips through the cracks.1777    Dr. O'Toole. Thank you, Senator, and it's a great question.1778The short answer is because they work, and because they work1779for our veterans in bringing them back into their communities,1780allowing them to lead their fullest lives possible, and it's1781important. We have 515 veteran justice outreach specialists1782currently who do God's work. And having been a primary care1783provider in the VA for 20 years, and a shout-out to Rich Flynn1784at the Providence VA, these guys make a huge difference in1785reconnecting veterans, keeping them from becoming homeless,1786getting them back into the workforce, bringing them back and1787connected with their communities. And I think our first panel1788really just reinforced all the reasons why this is what makes1789the VA a special place.1790    Chairman Moran. Tell me about staffing. There's been a lot1791of talk in this Committee, since the beginning of last year,1792about staffing at the VA. We're assured by the Department of1793Veterans Affairs that the people necessary to fulfill the1794responsibilities are sufficient, adequate, and doing their job.1795Is that true in this program?1796    Dr. O'Toole. I think it is, sir. I think--you know, just to1797level set with some numbers, we currently have 515 veteran1798justice outreach specialists employed in the VA. We have about1799a 9 percent vacancy rate, which for most programs is kind of1800within the norm of expecting an influx and efflux out. Each1801medical center is required to have at least one veterans1802outreach specialist, and obviously, we have many more in most1803of our facilities. And we currently staff 747 Veteran Treatment1804Courts, as well as go to upwards of 3,000 prisons and jails1805with that staff.1806    We have a budget of $75 million appropriated from Congress1807to be able to do that, and we spend all that money. The issue,1808however, I do want to emphasize is that this is a program we1809would love to see grow. Those 747 treatment courts, there is a1810capacity for many more. As the program grows, we will staff1811accordingly. This is a priority for us, and I do hope that we1812can grow this program.1813    Chairman Moran. My understanding is that fiscal year 20251814is the $75 million that you mentioned. Fiscal year 2026 is $821815million. So, there is--and that's grown since the numbers I1816have go back to fiscal year 2022 when it was $53 million. So,1817there is interest in Congress in support, through the1818appropriations process, for this program.1819    Let me ask you a couple of specific questions, and I'll1820turn to my colleague, Mr. Banks. Incarcerated veterans lose1821access to VA-delivered care while in custody. How does the VA1822provide continuity of care for veterans with serious mental1823health or substance use conditions upon release?1824    Dr. O'Toole. Thank you. And it's, obviously, with Senator1825King's legislation, that's something that he's looking at as1826well, and I appreciate Congress's interest on this. I know I1827previously testified on the Hill on the House side for similar1828legislation.1829    When a person is incarcerated, they become a ward of the1830state in where they are incarcerated, and so the VA does not,1831by legal authority, have the ability to provide direct clinical1832care while they are incarcerated. Our job, in the context of1833the Veterans Justice Outreach effort, is to make sure that we1834can create a seamless transition from when they are released to1835get them back into the VA as quickly and seamlessly as1836possible, and this is where the VJO specialists play a very,1837very critical role. And as I mentioned, in my own experience,1838having the VJO specialist directly participate in bringing that1839patient to clinic and making sure that they are plugged in and1840getting the care they need, is a critical case management step1841that really makes a difference. And that's just one element of1842all the work that they do to reconnect people, and that's why1843the program works.1844    Chairman Moran. Finally, you mentioned your support for the1845National Center for Veterans Justice. Is there a plan in place1846to coordinate with DOJ in that effort?1847    Dr. O'Toole. There is. I can't speak to all of the1848specifics of that plan, but we have dedicated leadership within1849VA that have a long-standing history of working with DOJ and1850helping develop the center and staffing it to those needs, and1851we look forward to that continued collaboration.1852    Chairman Moran. Thank you. Senator Banks.18531854                        HON. JIM BANKS,1855                   U.S. SENATOR FROM INDIANA18561857    Senator Banks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. DiGiacomo--did1858I say that right?1859    Ms. DiGiacomo. Yes, sir----1860    Senator Banks. Close?1861    Ms. DiGiacomo [continuing]. DiGiacomo.1862    Senator Banks. You talk more generally about the1863relationship between the Bureau and the VA, but can you be more1864specific? Is it just the two of you who communicate? Are there1865task forces between the two departments? Can you be more1866specific about what that rhythm of communication looks like1867between the two?1868    Ms. DiGiacomo. Absolutely. So, as I mentioned in my opening1869statement, we have that three-tiered model. We have veterans1870scattered all across the Bureau of Prisons, and those that are1871at institutions under our tiered models. We have self-help1872resources. We have staff dedicated at our institutions, such as1873our special population coordinators. These are individuals1874helping our special populations such as our incarcerated1875veterans. We also have reentry affairs coordinators who are1876also assisting that population. So, those individuals are1877reaching out directly to those local VA points of contact that1878they have, who are working collaboratively together at that1879local level in the community in which our institutions reside.1880    Senator Banks. Is this new or is this what we've always1881done? I mean, help me----1882    Ms. DiGiacomo. Honestly, I don't know the history. I know1883that as long as I have been in the Reentry Services Division,1884this has happened as far as this collaboration and working1885directly with the VA. I think that's what separates the Bureau1886of Prisons, maybe, from some of the state systems, you know,1887that we are both at this federal level, so we have the ability1888to share data more easily such as when individuals come into1889our custody. You know, not only are we asking them if they1890served and looking at their pre-sentence report--but we're also1891making that outreach to the VA through data sharing to cross-1892reference (VRRS), which makes our communication between the1893two, I think, a little bit easier than maybe from at a state1894level.1895    Senator Banks. Would you say it works?1896    Ms. DiGiacomo. Absolutely.1897    Senator Banks. And what would you say we need to do better?1898Where do we need to do better between communication and1899collaboration between the two?1900    Ms. DiGiacomo. I think communication.1901    Senator Banks. What are you working on?1902    Ms. DiGiacomo. Well, I would say one of the things that1903we're working on is resources, right? I think it's no surprise1904the Bureau of Prisons is in desperate need of resources. We1905need more people to help in this area. What we'd love to have1906is special population coordinators at every single one of our1907institutions to be able to help the population, because----1908    Senator Banks. Specifically, to work with veterans?1909    Ms. DiGiacomo. Yes, sir.1910    Senator Banks. Good. I think what you do is really1911important, and I know that you know this because you said1912homelessness drives incarceration, and incarceration leads to1913homelessness. So, it's true among veterans, true among1914everybody else. Can you talk about the Bureau of Prisons1915national reentry strategy, and how that aims to break that1916cycle?1917    Ms. DiGiacomo. Absolutely. And this goes for everyone in1918our custody. The Bureau of Prisons takes a holistic approach to1919each individual that comes into our custody, looking at what1920their needs are. Everyone comes in with a different set of1921needs, and we try to build off the strengths that they have.1922So, we start there by looking at: what are the needs, what got1923them here, and what are the gaps that need to be filled, and1924how do we approach filling those gaps? Whether it be with1925educational programming, programming as it relates to trauma or1926PTSD, or those things that do affect our incarcerated veterans,1927and making sure that they get the programming that's going to1928set them up.1929    Another great thing about the Bureau of Prisons, I think,1930that separates us from some of the state correction agencies is1931the fact that we do have a reentry transition into the1932community. Individuals in our custody, all of our offenders,1933have the ability under the Second Chance Act, to transition to1934their community before they actually release. So, we give them1935an opportunity to live in the community before they actually1936release, and that makes that transition and that reentry much1937easier.1938    Senator Banks. Good. Dr. O'Toole, I introduced legislation1939to permanently authorize the Health Care for Homeless Veterans1940(HCHV) program. It provides medical care for homeless veterans1941and connects them to housing. How important is it to make that1942program permanent?1943    Dr. O'Toole. Thank you, Senator. I think it's very1944important. VA has made significant strides in reducing1945homelessness, and one of the reasons why is because we are an1946integrated system and an integrated model that is able to1947connect housing with needed healthcare services, needed legal1948services, as demonstrated here, and needed social services.1949    Just to emphasize that point. Within the context of the1950Veterans Justice Program, 81 percent of individuals enrolled in1951the Veterans Justice Program are diagnosed with a mental health1952problem, and 56 percent with a substance abuse problem. As a1953result of being enrolled in this program, 94 percent of those1954individuals with a mental health diagnosis go on to receive1955healthcare within the VA system. In mental health the previous1956year, that's 17 visits per patient. For substance use1957treatment, it's 15 visits per patient. That's a real, very1958meaningful, and significant difference that wouldn't occur if1959we didn't have an integrated approach. And so, absolutely, I1960endorse what you're saying.1961    Senator Banks. Thank you. My time has expired.1962    Chairman Moran. Let me make sure I understand something.1963Most of our conversation about Veterans Treatment Courts, the1964vast extent of it, is going to be about Veterans Treatment1965Courts in state courts. Is that true? This may not be the panel1966to ask this question, but I think that's true. And in fact, I1967think there are very few federal courts that have a Veteran1968Treatment Court. And so, what you're talking to us about1969federal corrections facilities, they are dealing with veterans1970absent a veteran treatment court. You are just taking care of1971veterans without the services that come in a courtroom, between1972a veteran and the state district court judge. That would be1973where we are. Is that right?1974    Ms. DiGiacomo. Well, I'm probably not the appropriate1975person to speak about how the courts work. What I can say is,1976I'm sure some of these individuals may have made their way1977through some type of veterans court previously before coming1978into our system, but oftentimes, their military service is1979taken into account in any recommendation that's being given by1980that federal judge in regards to the services that that1981incarcerated veteran may need. The Bureau of Prisons does our1982very best to make sure that we're responding to those1983recommendations from the court.1984    Chairman Moran. So, the veterans you deal with in the1985Federal Bureau of Prisons are veterans who you learn are1986veterans and then try to provide them additional support and1987help, or you're trying to follow a federal judge's direction on1988how that veteran should be cared for?1989    Ms. DiGiacomo. Yes, sir.1990    Chairman Moran. Okay. Anything else, Senator Banks?1991    Senator Banks. No, thank you.1992    Chairman Moran. I want to once again thank our witnesses,1993both this panel and the previous, for their testimony today,1994our Committee, and Members that were here, and our audience1995that participated as well. Each member has five legislative1996days in which to submit statements or questions for the record.1997Any Senator who would like to submit a question for the record,1998please do so in a timely manner, and ask our witnesses to1999respond to any questions they have received following today's2000hearing in a timely manner as well.2001    With that, the hearing is adjourned. Thank you.2002    [Whereupon, at 5:29 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]20032004                            A P P E N D I X20052006                          Prepared Statements2007[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]20082009                        Questions for the Record2010[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]20112012                        Statement for the Record2013[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]20142015                                  [all]