“Leveraging Technology to Strengthen Immigration Enforcement”

1[House Hearing, 119 Congress]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                  LEVERAGING TECHNOLOGY TO STRENGTHEN56                        IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT78=======================================================================910                                HEARING1112                               before the1314               SUBCOMMITTEE ON CYBERSECURITY, INFORMATION15                 TECHNOLOGY, AND GOVERNMENT INNOVATION1617                                 of the1819                         COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT20                         AND GOVERNMENT REFORM2122                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES2324                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2526                             FIRST SESSION2728                               __________2930                             MARCH 4, 20253132                               __________3334                           Serial No. 119-103536                               __________3738Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform3940                [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]4142                       Available on: govinfo.gov43                         oversight.house.gov or44                             docs.house.gov4546                                _______4748                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE4950 59-602 PDF            WASHINGTON : 20255152              COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM5354                    JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman5556Jim Jordan, Ohio                     Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia,57Mike Turner, Ohio                        Ranking Minority Member58Paul Gosar, Arizona                  Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of59Virginia Foxx, North Carolina            Columbia60Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin            Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts61Michael Cloud, Texas                 Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois62Gary Palmer, Alabama                 Ro Khanna, California63Clay Higgins, Louisiana              Kweisi Mfume, Maryland64Pete Sessions, Texas                 Shontel Brown, Ohio65Andy Biggs, Arizona                  Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico66Nancy Mace, South Carolina           Robert Garcia, California67Pat Fallon, Texas                    Maxwell Frost, Florida68Byron Donalds, Florida               Summer Lee, Pennsylvania69Scott Perry, Pennsylvania            Greg Casar, Texas70William Timmons, South Carolina      Jasmine Crockett, Texas71Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Emily Randall, Washington72Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia      Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia73Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Yassamin Ansari, Arizona74Anna Paulina Luna, Florida           Wesley Bell, Missouri75Nick Langworthy, New York            Lateefah Simon, California76Eric Burlison, Missouri              Dave Min, California77Eli Crane, Arizona                   Ayanna Pressley, Massachusetts78Brian Jack, Georgia                  Rashida Tlaib, Michigan79John McGuire, Virginia80Brandon Gill, Texas8182                                 ------83                       Mark Marin, Staff Director84                   James Rust, Deputy Staff Director85                     Mitch Benzine, General Counsel86                Lauren Lombardo, Deputy Policy Director87             Raj Bharwani, Senior Professional Staff Member88            Duncan Wright, Senior Professional Staff Member89      Mallory Cogar, Deputy Director of Operations and Chief Clerk9091                      Contact Number: 202-225-50749293                  Jamie Smith, Minority Staff Director9495                      Contact Number: 202-225-505196                                 ------9798 Subcommittee on Cybersecurity, Information Technology, and Government99                               Innovation100101                 Nancy Mace, South Carolina, Chairwoman102Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Shontel Brown, Ohio, Ranking103Anna Paulina Luna, Florida               Minority Member104Eric Burlison, Missouri              Ro Khanna, California105Eli Crane, Arizona                   Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia106John McGuire, Virginia               Yassamin Ansari, Arizona107108                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S109110                              ----------111112                                                                   Page113114Hearing held on March 4, 2025....................................     1115116                               Witnesses117118                              ----------119120Mr. John Fabbricatore, Former Senior Executive and Field Office121  Director, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Enforcement122  Removal Operations, Principal Consultant, The Complete Solution123  Group124Oral Statement...................................................     6125126Dr. Doug Gilmer, Retired Senior Law Enforcement Advisor and127  Assistant Special Agent in Charge, Immigration and Customs128  Enforcement, Homeland Security Investigations, President & CEO,129  Resolved Strategies130Oral Statement...................................................     7131132Mr. Simon Hankinson, Senior Research Fellow, Border Security and133  Immigration Center, The Heritage Foundation134Oral Statement...................................................     9135136Ms. Deborah Fleischaker (Minority Witness), Principal Consultant,137  Blackbird Ventures LLC138Oral Statement...................................................139140Written opening statements and bios are available on the U.S.141  House of Representatives Document Repository at:142  docs.house.gov.143144                           Index of Documents145146                              ----------147148  * No additional documents were entered into the record for this149  hearing.150151                  LEVERAGING TECHNOLOGY TO STRENGTHEN152                        IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT153154                              ----------155156                         Tuesday, March 4, 2025157158              U.S. House of Representatives159160              Committee on Oversight and Government Reform161162 Subcommittee on Cybersecurity, Information Technology, and Government163                               Innovation164165                                           Washington, D.C.166167    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:04 a.m., in168room 2128, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Nancy Mace169[Chairwoman of the Subcommittee] presiding.170    Presents: Representatives Mace, Boebert, Burlison, Crane,171McGuire, Brown, Khanna, Subramanyam, and Ansari.172    Ms. Mace. Good morning. The Subcommittee on Cybersecurity,173Information Technology, and Government Innovation will now come174to order, and welcome everyone who is here today.175    Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any176time.177    I will now recognize myself for the purpose of making an178opening statement.179    Good morning to everyone who is here today, to our180witnesses, to our guests who are here as well, important181conversation about leveraging technology to strengthen182immigration enforcement. It was last year when I was in the183Oversight Committee, and I exposed a sanctuary sheriff in the184state of South Carolina, Charleston County, South Carolina. Her185name was Kristin Graziano, and I learned that she was not186working with ICE at the time, and she was letting illegal187immigrants who were here in our country illegally--criminals188because they break the law when they come into our country as189soon as they cross that border illegally, it is a crime--but190she was allowing rapists, pedophiles, molesters, murderers out191onto the streets of South Carolina, in my district, in my192state, doing harm to women and girls.193    And so, having this conversation today is more important194than ever because we have to stop this. And I will say this,195that illegal border crossings are down significantly now that196Donald Trump is President. I believe the last stat I read was197that they were down 90 percent. But anyway, when I was exposing198what my sanctuary sheriff was doing last year, my Lieutenant199Governor, Pam Evette, stood silent. My Attorney General, Alan200Wilson, stood silent. I was literally one of the only people in201South Carolina willing to stick my neck out, put my career on202the line, my reputation on the line, to make sure this kind of203thing stopped.204    And so, today we are going to have this hearing about using205technology to minimize illegal immigration, to strengthen206immigration enforcement. First of all, it is well documented207the Biden Administration used technology to facilitate the208invasion of our Nation by millions of illegal aliens, the CBP209One app being just one example of this. Today's hearing will210explore how technology can help strengthen the enforcement of211our Nation's immigration laws. Cutting edge technology enhances212immigration enforcement and reduces risks for immigration213enforcement officials. From facial recognition software to data214analytics powered by artificial intelligence to GPS monitoring,215advanced technologies empower U.S. Immigration and Customs216Enforcement, or ICE, to track, apprehend, and deport illegal217aliens in our country.218    And we know right now, under the leadership of Donald Trump219and the leadership of Tom Homan, that we are trying to deport220those who are here illegally as fast as we can. And I believe221we do not have enough ICE agents right now to do that. We have222got to make sure that ICE and Homeland Security have all the223resources they need to do it as quickly as possible.224    Tracking illegal aliens and identifying threats to the225homeland allows ICE to more effectively enforce our Nation's226immigration laws and remove those who are unlawfully present in227the United States. Former President Biden and his Secretary of228Homeland Security, Alejandro Mayorkas, willfully and229intentionally unleashed an invasion--an invasion--of illegal230aliens into the U.S. from around the world. We had more people231crossing illegally into our country that were on the Terrorist232Watch List than ever in the history of the United States over233the last 4 years. Illegal aliens shepherded into the country by234the Biden Administration include terrorists, murderers,235rapists, pedophiles, cartel members, drug traffickers, sex236traffickers, child traffickers, human traffickers, not exactly237the kind of people you want roaming the streets of our238communities.239    By systematically dismantling President Trump's policies240from his first Administration, the Biden Administration flung241the border wide open for any and all who wished to enter here242the U.S. illegally. This has led to the unlawful entry of over24310 million illegal aliens into the U.S., and nearly 2 million244``known gotaways,'' who entered the country without once being245apprehended. As of last July, there were over 646,000 illegal246aliens with additional criminal histories running around free247right here in the United States, and those are only criminal248aliens that are known to ICE officials, so the actual number is249actually statistically, probably significantly, much, much250higher.251    Why is this issue important? Why must we use all means at252our disposal to identify, locate, and deport all illegal aliens253in the U.S.? It is because the heinous nature of the crimes254committed by those who enter the U.S. illegally and treat this255Nation as their own playground to get rich by selling human256beings and illegal drugs while victimizing women and children.257The most dangerous criminals include cartel organizations that258control the border, who force women into indentured servitude259or sex slavery to pay for their entry into the U.S. They260subject children to child pornography. If you speak to law261enforcement at the border, you will hear about rape trees,262where the underwear of women and girls brutally raped on their263journey to America are hung like trophies.264    Ten years ago, I did not even know what fentanyl was, and265now I personally know multiple people who have died of a266fentanyl overdose. We have all heard stories also of law267enforcement who are doing investigations, who were accidentally268exposed to fentanyl, end up in the hospital very sick. They are269lucky they have not died. The Biden Administration shoulders270the blame for the record deaths of American citizens, the271record number of illegal aliens, and the record profits for272drug cartels due to fentanyl and human trafficking. And we are273talking about numbers, about the amount of money that the274cartels have made off of drug trafficking and human275trafficking, tens of billions of dollars easily north of $60 or276$70 billion. They are making money off the U.S. because we let277them.278    To protect American citizens, we must undo the horrors279caused by the Biden Administration's immigration policies that280rewarded criminal illegal aliens. A core component of this is281the ability to track and monitor all illegal aliens in the282country when detention is not feasible for some reason. When283used as part of the Alternatives to Detention, or ATD program,284modern technology can be used to monitor illegal aliens within285the country and assist with proper enforcement of U.S.286immigration laws. When detention is not possible, these modern287technologies can enhance security by monitoring and tracking288illegal aliens to ensure they can be removed once a final order289of removal is in place. The Biden Administration, however,290refused to use the ATD program as intended, frequently and291prematurely removing illegal aliens from monitoring before a292final order of removal was in, allowing them to scatter293throughout the interior of our country and victimize American294citizens.295    For example, at the Biden Administration's direction, one296of the illegal aliens who murdered Jocelyn Nungaray, a 12-year-297old girl from Texas, who was raped and strangled to death.298    [Photo]299    Ms. Mace. This is Jocelyn Nungaray. I hope we never forget300her name. We never forget her face. We never forget the horrors301she endured. She was 12 years old. The illegal who raped and302killed her had his GPS ankle monitor removed prior to303committing these horrific crimes. Jocelyn Nungaray is the face304of the horrors American women and girls are suffering at the305hands of illegals that have been let in by the Joe Biden306Administration. The Biden Administration allowed this to307happen, all while unconscionably ignoring easy-to-use and308available technologies that could have prevented the release of309illegal aliens with criminal histories in the first place.310    I look forward to the testimonies of our witnesses today,311which include former ICE officials, to hear about their312firsthand experience and suggestions on how we can leverage313technology to strengthen immigration enforcement and facilitate314the mass deportations Americans overwhelmingly support. I now315yield to Ranking Member Brown for her opening statement.316    Ms. Brown. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the317witnesses for being here today. Before I begin, I want to318highlight that Chair Mace and my Federal Contractor319Cybersecurity Vulnerability Reduction Act, which would close a320critical loophole in Federal Cybersecurity standards, passed321the House yesterday. So, Chairwoman Mace, I am looking forward322to continuing to work together on these----323    Ms. Mace. Yes, ma'am.324    Ms. Brown. [continuing.] Important issues.325    Ms. Mace. Thank you.326    Ms. Brown. Now moving to the topic of today's hearing.327Immigration has remained a hot button issue across both328Republican and Democratic administrations. Congress--I repeat329Congress--has the authority, not the President, to enact a330lasting solution. I take this responsibility seriously as well331as our country's long history of accepting immigrants from all332over the world, making us who we are today. But when I see the333dangerous and cruel way that the current President treats and334talks about immigrants, I know I am not dealing with a serious335and solution-driven administration. We all want our cities to336be safe. We all want to work with law enforcement and community337members to prevent crime. No one wants dangerous criminals,338terrorists, or illicit drugs coming in through our borders, but339propagating lies and misplaced fear are not going to address340the issue. In fact, it risks making the problem worse.341    Real change starts with real solutions. Last year, the342Senate crafted a comprehensive and bipartisan immigration343reform, which presented a real opportunity to move the ball344forward on this critical issue for the first time in a decade.345In fact, the bill would have helped to address the fentanyl346crisis by providing new scanning technologies at ports of entry347and increasing staffing for customs agents. But what happened?348Then Presidential candidate, Donald Trump, blew up the bill349because he wanted to run on an anti-immigration rhetoric350instead of fixing the problem.351    Instead of seeking to score political points, we should352work on a bipartisan basis to find real solutions to our broken353immigration system. That means modernizing our border354infrastructure, reforming the asylum process, and ensuring a355fair and efficient way to resettle asylum seekers across the356country. To prevent abuse of the asylum system, we must invest357in programs that speed up processing times, properly fund358immigration courts, and ensure fair adjudications. And let us359be clear: creating a pathway to citizenship--Dreamers, PS360holders, farmworkers, and so many others--is not just the right361thing to do. It strengthens our economy and provides much-362needed relief to communities that have earned it.363    And yes, technology has a real role to play here, and364Congress recognizes that. The 2024 spending bill signed into365law by President Biden included a more than 20-percent increase366in funding to purchase and deploy next-generation technology,367like surveillance towers, tunnel detection technology, and368mobile surveillance technology. This funding is already helping369to strengthen border security, prevent the flow of fentanyl,370and combat human trafficking.371    During President Trump's first term, his Department of372Homeland Security released a mobile application called CBP One373that allowed immigrants to fill out much of the necessary374paperwork before they reach the border. That seemed like a good375idea, except the app frequently malfunctioned and often failed376to recognize faces with darker complexions. The Biden377Administration ran with the idea and turned this broken app378into a legitimate tool to provide a legal pathway for those379escaping violence and persecution to come to America for a380better life. That is leveraging technology to solve our border381crisis. While the revamped CBP One app was not perfect, the app382helped more than 1 million immigrants--more than 1 million383immigrants--legally enter the United States to become384productive and valued members of our communities.385    And it deterred illegal border crossings, that is, until386the Trump Administration abruptly shut it down last month as387part of his day one, sign first, and ask later executive order388rampage. So, what have we seen instead in the first 2 weeks of389the Trump Administration? An attempt to terrorize immigrant390families. On his first day in office, Trump signed an executive391order authorizing Immigrations and Custom Enforcement, also392known as ICE, to raid schools, churches, and hospitals with393little to no oversight or plan. The Trump Administration should394instead be focusing on the responsible and humane use of395technology to address border security when it makes sense. Any396technology to address border security must be done with strong397oversight and safeguards to protect privacy, civil rights, and398civil liberties. These concerns must always be at the forefront399of any conversation on the use of technology, and especially400artificial intelligence, across Federal Government.401    So, I hope that we can have a productive conversation today402about the opportunities that come from modern solutions and how403we can implement those solutions while safeguarding against404abuse.405    Ms. Mace. Thank you so much. I am pleased to now introduce406our witnesses for today's hearing. Our first witness is Mr.407John Fabbricatore, former Senior Executive and Field Office408Director for Enforcement Removal Operations at ICE. Our second409witness is Dr. Doug Gilmer, retired Senior Law Enforcement410Advisor and Special Agent in Charge for Homeland Security411Investigations at ICE. Our third witness is Mr. Simon412Hankinson, Senior Research Fellow for the Border Security and413Immigration Center at the Heritage Foundation, and our fourth414witness is Ms. Deborah Fleischaker, Principal Consultant at415Blackbird Ventures, LLC. Welcome, everyone. We are pleased to416have you this morning.417    Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witnesses, if you will418please stand and raise your right hands.419    Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are420about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but421the truth, so help you God?422    [A chorus of ayes.]423    Ms. Mace. Let the record show the witnesses all answered in424the affirmative. Thank you. We appreciate all of you being here425today and look forward to your testimony.426    Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written427statements, and they will appear in full in the hearing record.428Please limit your oral statements to 5 minutes. Now, as a429reminder, please press the button on the microphone in front of430you so that it is on and the Members up here can hear you. When431you begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn green.432After 4 minutes, the light will turn yellow, and when the red433light comes on, your 5 minutes has expired, and I will ask you434to conclude your remarks.435    I will now recognize, Mr. Fabbricatore, to please begin436your opening statement.437438                     STATEMENT OF JOHN FABBRICATORE439           FORMER SENIOR EXECUTIVE AND FIELD OFFICE DIRECTOR440                  IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT441                     ENFORCEMENT REMOVAL OPERATIONS442                        AND PRINCIPAL CONSULTANT443                      THE COMPLETE SOLUTION GROUP444445    Mr. Fabbricatore. Good morning, Chairwoman Mace, Ranking446Member Brown, and distinguished Members. Thank you for the447opportunity to speak with you today on the critical topic of448leveraging technology to strengthen immigration enforcement.449This issue is at the heart of national security, impacting us450at every level from the border to interior enforcement. Border451security and immigration enforcement are vital pillars of our452Nation's safety and security, yet sanctuary states and cities453often obstruct interior enforcement by cutting off ICE from454essential data systems. This lack of cooperation, combined with455outdated data infrastructure, leaves us vulnerable. We face456mounting challenges, such as human trafficking, violent illegal457alien gang activity, drug smuggling, and the influx of lethal458substances like fentanyl. Tackling these issues demands459innovation, strategic thinking, and integration of cutting-edge460technology into our operations.461    With over 30 years of Federal law enforcement experience,462much of it spent on immigration enforcement, I am convinced463that we will continue to face significant vulnerabilities464without adopting advanced technological solutions and465unconventional strategies. Technology must go beyond the466borders, reaching interior enforcement by integrating advanced467investigative tools into field operations. Streamlined data468sharing across agencies, modernized communication systems, and469increased funding for technology deployment are essential to470improving efficiency, accuracy, and coordination.471    In the last 4 years, sanctuary jurisdictions have further472exacerbated these challenges by denying access to critical data473sources, such as DMV records. These jurisdictions allow barely474vetted individuals to obtain driver's licenses while blocking475ICE agents from accessing this information. The inability to476retrieve such records undermines our ability to protect the477Nation effectively. Information sharing is not optional. It is478fundamental to actionable intelligence, analytics, and a479unified response to today's threats. For example, in the past,480my team used tools like the Eagle Direct Identification481Environment, or simply called EDDIE, a mobile system that links482portable fingerprint readers to ICE data bases via smartphones.483This tool allowed my team to identify heroin dealers in Denver484who falsely claimed to be U.S. citizens but were, in fact,485Honduran nationals. Quick access to data base information486enabled us to remove these dangerous individuals from the487community.488    However, the effectiveness of the tool depends on the489quality and integration of the data in our systems, a glaring490issue that underscores the urgent need for modernization. The491time to act is now. We need a new data platform that are agile,492robust, and equipped with advanced machine learning and cloud-493native capabilities. These systems can reveal unseen494relationships, identify patterns, and provide actionable495insights, giving agents the tools for target and apprehend with496precision. A significant focus must also be placed on497integrating case management systems that track operations498through the enforcement lifecycle. Officers should be spending499their time on the streets safeguarding our communities, not500stuck behind desks wrestling with disconnected, antiquated data501bases.502    I have seen the consequences of a fragmented approach.503After 9/11, the whole-of-government strategy for information504sharing proved successful. However, over time, we have505regressed into siloed agencies that are hesitant to506collaborate. This reluctance has led to serious national507security gaps, evidenced by what occurred under the last508administration: the rampant flow of illegal drugs, like heroin,509methamphetamine, and fentanyl, across our borders and a510persistent prevalence of human trafficking operations.511    A unified response is nonnegotiable. ICE must have real-512time data sharing capabilities with Federal and state agencies513to increase efficiency and improve targeting. Emerging514technologies from the private sector also hold enormous515potential to revolutionize immigration enforcement. By516leveraging automation software for high-volume targeting,517building advanced analytics platforms, and integrating working518leads management systems, we can maximize productivity and519enable officers to focus on their primary mission: stopping520national security threats, apprehending criminal aliens, and521enforcing the immigration law.522    The threats we face are not static. They are dynamic,523interconnected, and constantly evolving. To address these524multifaceted challenges, we must adopt proactive, technology-525driven solutions. This is not simply an operational necessity.526It is a moral imperative. If we are to enforce immigration law,527eradicate fentanyl, disrupt human and sex trafficking528operations, and ensure the safety of our Nation, Congress must529prioritize investment in technology and expertise. By working530together, we can create immigration enforcement framework that531is responsive, efficient, and effective.532    Thank you once again, and I look forward to your questions533and working alongside you to safeguard the future of our534Nation.535    Ms. Mace. Thank you. I will now recognize Dr. Gilmer to536please begin his opening statement.537538                     STATEMENT OF DR. DOUG GILMER539                 RETIRED SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ADVISOR540                 AND ASSISTANT SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE541                  IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT542                    HOMELAND SECURITY INVESTIGATIONS543                         AND PRESIDENT AND CEO544                          RESOLVED STRATEGIES545546    Mr. Gilmer. Good morning, Chairwoman Mace, Ranking Member547Brown, Members of the Subcommittee. Thank you for this548opportunity. I am Dr. Doug Gilmer. I am a 35-year veteran of549law enforcement with the majority of that time spent with ICE550HSI. My career has focused primarily on two areas: national551security and human trafficking. I have received a National552Intelligence Award from the DNI for Intelligence Integration553and also recently was presented the William Wilberforce554Lifetime Achievement Award for my role in helping to counter555human trafficking globally. I retired from HSI in August 2024556where, in my last role, I served at the DHS Center for557Countering Human Trafficking.558    There is an interconnectedness between illegal immigration,559transnational and cross-border crime, drug and human smuggling,560human trafficking, illicit finance, et cetera. Faced with an561enormous problem today, and with the countless numbers of562people who were allowed to enter the U.S. during the last563Administration, many of whom saw the opportunity they were564given as license to engage in criminal activity, law565enforcement needs help to combat these public safety threats.566If we first identify its intended outcomes, technology can aid567in targeting threats, identifying trends, patterns, identifying568victims, and analyzing vast amounts of data quickly, allowing569for a faster, more efficient law enforcement response while570also protecting personally identifying information. Technology571can improve productivity, mitigate risks, improve morale, and572reduce fatigue.573    The government is often hampered by its ability to574effectively integrate the latest technology, and, at times, has575ineffectively used technology in ways that impeded576investigative efforts. When the previous Administration took577office, a moratorium on immigration arrests was almost578immediately put in place. While this dramatically impacted ICE579ERO in doing their job, it also impacted HSI. The answer was to580create a computer application by which ICE personnel had to581seek permission to make an arrest. The online form was then582routed through the chain of command to executive leadership for583adjudication based on established protocols. This is an example584of an inefficient use of technology to solve a problem that did585not need solving.586    There have been technology successes, however. The DHS587Center for Countering Human Trafficking recently completed a588technology upgrade to assist in the issuance of Continued589Presence, an immigration benefit provided to foreign nationals590in the U.S. believed to be victims of human trafficking. Once,591this was a process that could take well over a year to592adjudicate. Today, the CCHT has been able to digitize that593process and reduce processing times down to as little as 3594weeks while adding additional anti-fraud measures.595    Standing in the way of onboarding third-party applications,596however, are the current acquisition requirements and the597inability to onboard safe and secure technology quickly598impacting public safety. The time it takes to acquire599technology and integrate it means that by the time it is600onboarded, we have missed opportunity, and the solution can be601outdated. Often when a technology is acquired, it is siloed in602a particular agency, component, or division rather than scaled603to provide solutions for the general workforce.604    Sometimes the issue is a matter of acquisition priority.605For instance, in my last field assignment, we only had about606five EDDIE machines for HSI personnel statewide. As John607described the EDDIE machine, this tool not only helps in608enforcing immigration law, but it saves time. It aids in609enforcement prioritization, reduces the chance of error, and610also helps law enforcement rapidly identify suspects and611mitigate threats to safety. In the absence of our own612technology to solve crimes, we have often had to rely on NGOs613and state and local law enforcement agencies who routinely have614better technology. Not only is this time consuming, but the615ability to do so relies solely on personal relationships, and616it places an additional burden on those groups to assist.617    In some cases, technology and processes are already in618place but are not scaled to meet contemporary requirements. In619some cases, we own the technology but are not allowed to use it620out of privacy concern. Facial and pattern recognition621technology is one such tool with tremendous potential for622solving crimes and recovering victims of exploitative crime.623However, the restrictions placed on its use are so tightly624controlled, it is only used in a small percentage of cases.625Recurrent vetting and targeting are other examples of626underutilized technology. The best technology, however, is627useless if the technology itself and or the evidence or data it628produces remains in silos. That remains one of the biggest629detriments to law enforcement: the lack of a collaborative630data-sharing environment. When technology and data are siloed,631are not easily retrieved or accessible, we lose critical time632and miss information relevant to an investigation.633    In conclusion, I am proud of my service with ICE, HSI, and634of my colleagues there today. I believe ICE, though under635resourced for its vast mission, could be the greatest value636proposition in Federal law enforcement, and if properly637resourced, could do far more good. There is not a more nimble638and responsive Federal law enforcement agency in the Federal639Government, none that work harder to pursue criminals and640criminal organizations and are more committed to advocating for641and serving the victims of the crimes they investigate. Thank642you.643    Ms. Mace. Thank you. I will now recognize Mr. Hankinson for644opening remarks.645646                    STATEMENT OF MR. SIMON HANKINSON647648                         SENIOR RESEARCH FELLOW649650                 BORDER SECURITY AND IMMIGRATION CENTER651652                        THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION653654    Mr. Hankinson. Chairwoman Mace, Ranking Member Brown,655Members of the Committee, thank you for inviting me today. I am656a fellow at the Heritage Foundation, but the views I express657today are my own.658    DHS is required by law to detain all aliens arriving659illegally in the U.S. throughout their entire immigration660proceedings. Nonetheless, over the past 4 years, the Biden661Administration released and paroled millions of them and let662them go wherever they wanted, with no easy way for ICE to find663them. Mass release of unknown aliens is a national security and664community safety risk. There is no real vetting of aliens665released or paroled. Unless a foreign national has a record666with U.S. agencies, DHS is flying blind. And even if U.S.667agents request information on an alien, many countries will not668or cannot give it, so DHS has likely released thousands of669aliens with criminal records in their home countries, and if we670let them go with a promise to show up in court in future, it671does stand to reason that we should know where they are.672    Most released and paroled aliens are economic migrants who673will not qualify for asylum, but only a small percentage of674aliens ordered deported are ever actually removed. Alternatives675to Detention, or ATD, was started in 2004 to increase676compliance with court attendance and removal. ICE contracts to677track aliens using facial recognition, voice ID, or GPS678monitors, but to work, ATD has to be used widely and wisely.679There are around 7.5 million aliens on ICE's non-detained680docket, of whom, only about 184,000 are tracked using ATD, and681ICE releases the majority of aliens from ATD long before their682cases are over. A study in 2020 showed that 79 percent of ATD683participants were unenrolled before their cases were over, and684worse, for those that did stay in the program for their entire685case lifetime, 85 percent absconded from ATD.686    ICE says, ``ATD enables aliens to remain in their687communities, contributing to their families and community688organizations. That is a benefit to aliens, but what about the689risk to Americans?'' From 2004 to 2020, there were 21,000690criminal charges or convictions recorded among the aliens in691the ATD program, and in the Biden years, here are just a few692aliens who were on GPS monitoring, which is the best level of693ATD, yet victimized American citizens or legal immigrants.694    We have already discussed the sad case of Jocelyn Nungaray,695but in January 2025, Jefferson Ubilla-Delgado was arrested in696Chicago for the murder of George Levin. He had entered the U.S.697illegally, was released with a notice to appear and a GPS ankle698monitor. In September 2024, Estefania Primera, also known as La699Barbie, was arrested in El Paso, Texas. She was a member of the700Tren de Aragua gang and accused of operating a massive sex701trafficking ring. She was also released at the border with a702GPS ankle monitor, but she took it off. And in February 2024,703Diego Ibarra, the brother of Laken Riley's murderer, Jose704Ibarra, was released with a GPS ankle monitor, but he cut it705off and moved from Colorado to Georgia and lived there without706molestation.707    ICE ERO, Enforcement and Removal Operations, has limited708staff, and many local law enforcement agencies refuse to709cooperate with their detainers. They do not routinely pursue710absconders and track down for arrest the highest-risk cases.711There are roughly 430,000 aliens on the non-detained docket who712have been convicted of crimes, but ICE's target in 2024 to713remove them was only 29,389. And to make it worse, under the714Biden Administration, ICE resources were diverted from the715mission, which is enforcement, to providing social services.716So, detaining every alien who crosses into the U.S. illegally717is the ideal situation, but if we cannot do that, let us at718least try to keep track of them.719    With emerging facial recognition, artificial intelligence,720and other technology, keeping track of aliens is getting easier721and cheaper. ICE should aim to have 100 percent of non-detained722aliens doing frequent check-ins. Congress should impose clear723penalties for failure to check in with ICE. For example, it724should be a be a felony for an alien to remove their GPS725monitor. ICE should turn on GPS tracking through the SmartLINK726application. They could use automated case analysis to assess727the risks for ATD. We know from European data that rates of728criminal activity differ enormously based on national origin729and other factors, and ICE could collect that information,730along with criminal records from aliens for all Federal, state,731and local arrests. It is unacceptable to have millions of732foreign nationals in the midst of deportation proceedings and733not know where they are.734    Thank you for inviting me to testify, and I welcome your735questions.736    Ms. Mace. Thank you. I now recognize Ms. Fleischaker for 5737minutes.738739        STATEMENT OF MS. DEBORAH FLEISCHAKER (MINORITY WITNESS)740741                          PRINCIPAL CONSULTANT742743                         BLACKBIRD VENTURES LLC744745    Ms. Fleischaker. Chairwoman Mace, Ranking Member Brown, and746Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to747participate in today's hearing. My name is Deborah Fleischaker,748and I am currently the Principal Consultant at Blackbird749Ventures. Previously, however, I spent almost 14 years at the750U.S. Department of Homeland Security, including over 10 years751as a career civil servant. Over 2 of my years at DHS were spent752at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, ICE, first as the753Assistant Director in charge of Regulatory Affairs and Policy,754and then a year as the Acting Chief of Staff of the Agency.755Following my time at ICE, I moved back to DHS and finished my756government career as the Department's Executive Secretary and757Acting Chief Privacy Officer.758    I want to start my testimony by clearly stating the759operational challenges in increasing immigration enforcement,760including where technology can help ameliorate those challenges761and where it does not play a role. First, immigration762enforcement, including deporting people ordered removed from763this country, is hard. There is a tendency to talk about764immigration enforcement as a matter of will, and this765obfuscates the real material limiting factors on increasing766immigration enforcement.767    For example, Axios reported yesterday that removals and768arrests during the Trump Administration are lower than the769daily averages in Fiscal Year 2024. This happened despite high-770profile immigration enforcement actions by the new771Administration, including the use of Federal law enforcement772and defense personnel, assets, and money. The only operational773statistic that has increased during the first part of the Trump774Administration has been the total detained population, the775increase of which is driven by the increased detention rates of776people with no criminal record. I do not think anyone here777would argue that the Trump Administration has less of a will to778enforce immigration law, yet the operational outputs are779declining because of the material limits to immigration780enforcement.781    Second, technology cannot address all the limiting factors782to increasing removals. The immigration lifecycle is long and783complicated. The ultimate consequence in that lifecycle--784removal--requires the cooperation of other countries. ICE785cannot remove a person unless they have a place to remove them,786travel documents, and a seat on an airplane or a bus.787Technology can make some of this process more efficient, but it788does not impact the willingness of other countries to accept789removals.790    Third, I would like to talk about some of the success that791ICE has had using technology to increase immigration792enforcement. These initiatives are instructive in how ICE can793use technology to better effect its mission. First, the ICE794check-in app. In late 2024, ICE deployed a check-in app that795allows certain people on its non-detained docket to perform796their mandatory check-ins with an ICE officer using their797phones. The check-in app should allow ICE to better manage its798non-detained docket, relieve impacts on the limited physical799space at ICE field offices and allow ICE officers more time to800focus on noncitizens who are true public safety threats. ICE is801still evaluating the effectiveness of the check-in app, but802these are the types of efficiencies that can free up ICE803officers from largely administrative tasks.804    Next one is Family Expedited Removal Management, or FERM.805Before September 2021, ICE used family residential centers to806detain family units. These FRCs were expensive and resulted in807relatively few removals. ICE began using ATD technology,808including geolocation on heads of households, to move family809units through the immigration enforcement lifecycle. This new810processing pathway increased removals of family units in 2024811at a fraction of the cost of the former FRCs.812    ICE already has access to vast amounts of data, but the813officers need help turning it into prioritized, actionable814leads. ICE has full access to information about noncitizens815booked into prisons and jails throughout the country through816routine data sharing. This access is called interoperability,817formerly Secure Communities, and has been in place without818interruption since 2017. ICE also has access to information-819sharing data bases, including state DMV data bases, U.S.820National Crime Information Center, and a variety of gang data821bases. Access to additional data is not the limiting factor in822ICE's immigration enforcement mission. All of its access823already provides vast troves of information. ICE does not need824additional data to do its job, but it does need help analyzing,825sorting, and prioritizing the data to which it already has826access.827    Technology can and should help ICE focus on public safety828and national security threats instead of people who happen to829be in the wrong place at the wrong time. This sort of830technology assistance would support the ICE workforce, achieve831greater efficiency, enhance compliance, and reduce costs by832providing enhanced case oversight, intelligent decision833support, and streamlined check-ins and reporting for the non-834detained population.835    Thank you for the opportunity to testify on this important836topic. I would be happy to answer any questions you might have.837    Ms. Mace. Thank you. I will now recognize myself for 5838minutes of questions.839    A couple of weeks ago, I went on my first ICE raid, and I840got to see ICE and Homeland Security and other agencies and841agents come together, different field offices come together, to842find this guy who a week prior had, like, a brick of fentanyl,843or a portion of a brick, enough to kill a thousand people. It844was a lot, but one of the things that I learned there was that845in the Biden Administration, those agencies were not actually846able to work together. They were not allowed to do that, work847together to deport those who are here illegally, and I learned848a lot during that.849    But, Dr. Gilmer, I want to ask you my first question.850Something struck me in your testimony this morning. You are851talking about restrictions on data. Can you talk a little bit852more about that, some examples? Like, I guess it was maybe853biometric data, there were restrictions on data you can utilize854or----855    Mr. Gilmer. Yes. So, we have advanced technologies, facial856recognition technology, pattern-matching technology that could857be used to solve a vast array of crime and can be used to858identify victims of crime, especially minor victims of child859sexual abuse material, human trafficking victims, that type of860thing, who often live in the shadows, right? But that861technology is so tightly controlled out of fear of privacy,862that it is only used in a very small percentage of cases. There863has been a lot of fear that has been allowed to grow around864that technology, I think, often by people who do not really865understand the technology and do not understand the fact that866we can utilize that technology, while also putting in proper867safeguards to protect, you know, privacy, ethics, and civil868rights.869    Ms. Mace. And some examples of silos that you mentioned.870    Mr. Gilmer. Again, a lot of that technology is siloed into871different components or divisions. It is not rolled out through872an enterprise solution to the Agency, different components873within DHS. Our systems do not talk to each other. I mean, we874have a hard enough time talking between HSI and ERO, between875our systems, much less bringing in CBP, TSA, Border Patrol, and876when that data is siloed within those particular components, it877is very easy to miss things because you cannot access the data878and operationalize that data.879    Ms. Mace. And then my next question is really for everyone.880Can you speak to how the Biden Administration used technology881to facilitate the invasion of illegal aliens into the country?882    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, ma'am. For one, CBP One app, I883believe, was definitely misused by the Biden Administration to884allow people to come in, and that was one technology that was885developed out of something that it should not have been used886for. I think it was a go-around around Congress to allow people887to enter the United States. And we have seen a lot of those888cases that have entered on the CBP One app show up as criminal889aliens, you know, in the arrests that we have made.890    Ms. Mace. How is the app used?891    Mr. Fabbricatore. How is it used?892    Ms. Mace. Yes, how is it used to do that?893    Mr. Fabbricatore. Well, what we have seen, especially the894fraud from that, is that the cartels were actually using it895down in Mexico and having people sign up through them to then896get on the CBP One app and get around, you know, being able to897go through. So, the cartels were actually making money off of898the CBP One app.899    Ms. Mace. That is insane. Dr. Gilmer.900    Mr. Gilmer. Yes, I echo everything that that my counterpart901just said. I do not have as much experience with the CBP One902app particularly because my focus was with HSI and primarily on903criminal investigations, but even within HSI, we saw the misuse904of the CBP One app by those subjects that we did encounter,905oftentimes subjects of criminal investigations.906    Ms. Mace. The cartels----907    Mr. Gilmer. The cartels.908    Ms. Mace. [continuing.] Using CB One app to get people into909this country illegally, and we know this. We know this, and we910allowed it to happen. Mr. Hankinson.911    Mr. Hankinson. Yes. In terms of numbers, nothing is more912extreme than CBP One. There were also the programs for specific913countries, which obviously had to use technology to enroll914people in the first place. There was some diversion of ICE915money to programs like the Case Management Pilot Program and916the Young Adult Case Management Program, I think it was, that917were essentially providing social services instead of918enforcement operations. And I am sure that had to be919facilitated by the use of the technology that they had.920    Ms. Mace. I am certain that they did. Thank you. I will now921yield 5 minutes to Representative Brown.922    Ms. Brown. Thank you, Madam Chair. When strong privacy,923civil rights, and civil liberties protections are in place,924technology can be a critical tool in immigration enforcement.925For example, the Biden Administration installed new technology926at select locations along the Southern border that quickly927screens commercial cargo coming into the United States for928illegal contraband. These nonintrusive inspection capabilities929keep commerce flowing into the United States while successfully930reducing drug and human trafficking. Ms. Fleischaker, in your931experience, what role does technology play in keeping our932border secure, and what do you see are some areas of933opportunity?934    Ms. Fleischaker. I think you just pointed out one area935where technology has helped keep our borders secure. I think936that we should be using technology to make the process work as937efficiently and effectively as we can. I think there are a lot938of examples that I was a part of where technology was used to939improve the process. I gave a couple during my testimony,940including the ICE check-in app to help the non-detained941population, and FERM, which really increased the number of942family removals without the cost and burden of family943detention.944    Ms. Brown. Thank you. And so much of the immigration945conversation is focused on immigrants coming to the United946States the right way, but it is not easy for people to enter947through a legal pathway because our immigration system has not948kept up with the demands of the modern world. This is why the949Biden Administration used the CBP One mobile application to950make border crossings more efficient and provide guidance to951individuals seeking asylum, people crossing the Southwest952border illegally to request asylum. Once it went into effect,953it was the only way for people to get an appointment to request954asylum. So, Ms. Fleischaker, how can technology like CBP One955make legal immigration pathways more accessible?956    Ms. Fleischaker. I am not going to argue that we cannot957improve the technologies that we use. I think that that should958be a constant and ongoing effort. I have no argument that we959should be continuing to improve CBP One. I will say, though,960that I tend to support programs and policies that makes the961workforce's job easier. CBP One is one of those programs that962allowed Border Patrol agents to plan for and make efficient the963process of bringing people through the border when they were964seeking asylum. It allowed us to organize ourselves, and it965allowed us to plan for and appropriately staff the Border966Patrol offices because we knew who was going to be coming on967any given day. That is the kind of thing that I think is a net968positive, even when things can continue to be improved.969    Ms. Brown. Thank you. So, maybe you can tell me, before CBP970One, what difficulties did asylum seekers face when they971arrived at legal ports of entry, and how can we expand the ways972that CBP One app improved the process for people arriving at973the border seeking asylum?974    Ms. Fleischaker. Previously, people would queue and wait,975maybe, you know, for days or weeks, depending on the busyness976of a particular border patrol station. The CBP One app helped977bring some order to that process, which was, in my mind, a net978improvement. I think that we should be using technologies like979that to help improve the process writ large. I think that980technologies that help us sort of sift through data, process981people more quickly, improve outcomes are worth it. I will say,982from the ICE perspective, you know, Congress appropriates the983funds. Data modernization funds at ICE are often cannibalized984because for the more pressing needs such as detention or ATD,985right? So, we need those funds, ICE needs those funds, but986often those funds do not get used for the appropriated purpose987because there is more pressing, immediate needs.988    Ms. Brown. Thank you. And one of the first things that989President Trump did upon taking office was discontinue the use990of CBP One and cancel all existing appointments, so can you991tell us what are some of the immediate effects that this will992have on the country's immigration challenges?993    Ms. Fleischaker. So, I want to be careful. I am no longer994with the Department, so I did not get to witness exactly what995happened when the CBP One appointments were canceled, but as996people will come to the border, they will no longer have997appointments. They will no longer be prescreened and vetted,998and it, I believe, should increase confusion, time in999processing, and potential lines to get in.1000    Ms. Brown. Thank you. My time has expired.1001    Ms. Mace. Thank you. I will now recognize Representative1002Boebert for 5 minutes.1003    Ms. Boebert. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you so much1004to our witnesses here who came to testify on border policies1005and technologies.1006    I was excited to see President Trump put out a post, a1007truth, on Truth Social, that said, ``The month of February, my1008first full month in office, had the lowest number of illegal1009immigrants trying to enter our country in history by far. There1010were only 8,326 apprehensions of illegals by Border Patrol at1011the U.S. Mexico border, all of whom were quickly ejected from1012our Nation or, when necessary, prosecuted for crimes against1013the United States of America. This means that very few people1014came. The invasion of our country is over. In comparison, under1015Joe Biden, there were 300,000 illegals crossing in 1 month, and1016virtually all of them were released into our country. Thanks to1017the Trump Administration policies, the border is closed to all1018illegal aliens.'' ``Immigrants'' is what he what he put.1019``Anyone who tries to illegally enter the U.S.A. will face1020significant criminal penalties and immediate deportation.'' I1021think the President Trump and his team, Secretary Noem and1022border czar, Tom Homan, have done a fantastic job of turning1023chaos at our southern border into control.1024    Mr. Fabbricatore, welcome from the great state of Colorado.1025I wanted to ask you some questions about Colorado's sanctuary1026policies that prevent ICE from coordinating with local law1027enforcement agents and maybe how that had an impact on the Tren1028de Aragua presence that we saw in Aurora.1029    Mr. Fabbricatore. Thank you, ma'am. So, yes, the sanctuary1030policies in the state of Colorado, as you know, there have been1031many that have been passed since 2013 that limit cooperation1032with Immigration Customs Enforcement, and that even limits the1033amount of data that ICE is allowed to get. This includes DMV1034records, the state Department of Labor, so this keeps ICE from1035being able to identify criminal illegal aliens easily and go1036out on the street and arrest them. When you have those1037limitations, that is when you are going to see an increase in1038crime like we saw with Tren de Aragua over the last couple of1039months because ICE just simply is not getting the data that is1040necessary to be able to target these criminal illegal aliens1041and remove them from the streets quickly.1042    Ms. Boebert. Yes, and do you believe that using modern1043tracking technology would have helped secure our border and1044even our cities in the state of Colorado?1045    Mr. Fabbricatore. It definitely would have helped. It is1046something that the ERO officers need in order to be able to1047facilitate making arrests quickly, which is what we want to do.1048We do not want to give illegal criminal aliens an opportunity1049to commit more crimes in the U.S. We want to arrest them as1050quickly as we can.1051    Ms. Boebert. Yes. And so, with this CBP One app and1052discussing improvements to the app, do you think that there is1053a possibility for self-deportation, some sort of incentive to1054self-deport using the app, and arrive at a location to get a1055one-way ticket home?1056    Mr. Fabbricatore. If we can use the app to enter, we can1057use that app to exit. So, absolutely, we can develop that1058technology to allow people to self-deport, and that way,1059families do not have to be separated.1060    Ms. Boebert. Right.1061    Mr. Fabbricatore. They can go right through the CBP One1062app, they can get on the app, they can do an exit. We can have1063that information readily available, and they can self-deport.1064    Ms. Boebert. Thank you. And, Mr. Fabbricatore, under the1065failed Biden regime, how many criminal illegal aliens were able1066to evade ICE apprehensions because you were all restricted from1067using the right tools and technologies and authorities?1068    Mr. Fabbricatore. So, thousands, I mean, millions even. I1069mean, we have 1.4 million on the non-detained docket of final1070orders right now, which, you know, they went and saw an1071immigration judge. Immigration judge said you must leave, and1072they even defied an immigration judge's order, so these cases1073are stacking up. It is something that needs to be taken care1074of, and under this Administration, it will be.1075    Ms. Boebert. And, Mr. Fabbricatore, the Biden1076Administration focused on reducing detention rates rather than1077increasing surveillance. Hundreds of heinous acts were1078committed by violent criminal aliens. Do you think that1079reducing detention rates, rather than increasing surveillance,1080makes our borders more or less secure?1081    Mr. Fabbricatore. No. We need an increased detention rate,1082absolutely. I think we are at 41,000 beds right now. I know1083President Trump would like to double, if not even have more, up1084to 100,000 beds. This is what we need. In order to have the1085deportation process be successful, we need those beds in place.1086    Ms. Boebert. Thank you, and I am certainly proud of the1087initiative that President Trump has put forward and, like I1088said, border czar, Tom Homan. And I know that you have worked1089with him in the past, and I hope to see you alongside him in1090the future as well, and we have Secretary Noem doing a great1091job. And Mr. Fabbricatore, if you got 5 seconds that you want1092to say something, it is yours.1093    Mr. Fabbricatore. Thank you, yes. We need this technology.1094ERO needs this technology. They need the money, and they need1095the beds.1096    Ms. Boebert. Thank you, Mr. Fabbricatore. I yield.1097    Ms. Mace. Thank you. Representative Ansari, you are1098recognized for 5 minutes.1099    Ms. Ansari. Thank you, Madam Chair. I am proud to represent1100Arizona's 3rd Congressional District, an incredibly diverse1101community where more than 64 languages are spoken, and like1102many in my district, I am the daughter of immigrants who came1103to the United States for a better life. Unfortunately, the1104Trump Administration continues to target families in my1105district and across the country with inhumane immigration1106policies, including mass deportations that are already1107negatively impacting our economy with extreme backlash from1108economists, as well as the business community in Arizona.1109    Right now, hundreds of migrants are being held in Panama1110and Guantanamo Bay under brutal conditions, many of whom are1111fleeing persecution and could face deadly consequences if1112deported to their home countries. This includes Artemis, an1113Iranian woman who converted to Christianity and would be1114punished by death if she went back to Iran. I guess Christian1115values get thrown out the window when it comes to asylum1116seekers. These policies are unacceptable and fundamentally un-1117American. We can have secure borders and also have an1118immigration system based on humanity. These policies do none of1119that.1120    Now the Trump Administration wants to expand surveillance1121technology to infringe on the civil liberties of immigrants and1122all of us in an effort to ramp up the horrific mass deportation1123efforts. Let us be clear. This will not stop with immigrants.1124If they can do this to immigrants and asylum seekers, there is1125nothing stopping them from doing it to American citizens as1126well. As we know, Elon Musk and DOGE are illegally accessing1127Americans' private data and hacking into sensitive technology1128systems like Social Security and taxpayer data, which poses a1129grave national security threat.1130    With that, I would like to turn to my questions for Ms.1131Fleischhacker. In your opinion, does ICE have the capacity to1132conduct mass arrests and deportations and ramp up its use of1133technology without relying on outside contractors?1134    Ms. Fleischaker. I think ICE has a huge reliance on outside1135contractors. It has the capability of developing much of this1136technology itself, but it needs the funding and time to do1137that. I think that there is a very clear pipeline between ERO1138and the private prison industry, that, I do not think1139ultimately serves immigration enforcement, ICE or the country.1140    Ms. Ansari. Speaking of the pipeline between the work and1141the private prison industry, there has been some talk about the1142need to ramp up from the 41,000 beds. Can you talk a little bit1143more about what the numbers could look like and what the1144profits or, you know, benefits could be to the private prison1145industry if this Administration is able to fulfill all that it1146wants to do when it comes to mass deportations?1147    Ms. Fleischaker. Again, I am not part of the1148Administration, so I cannot speak to exactly what their plans1149are. Detention is very expensive. It is the largest expense in1150the ERO budget, and detention beds cost a lot of money.1151Congress appropriates that money. ERO has been above the1152congressionally appropriated number for years, so it really is1153not a matter of ERO not doing what it is being asked to do. It1154has done it. ERO ICE does not have those beds. It will need to1155purchase, rent, lease them mainly from private prison1156companies. That is going to be an enormous funding source for1157them.1158    Ms. Ansari. Thank you. Ms. Fleischaker, would it be1159dangerous, in your view, to allow unaccountable private1160security contractors to run immigration enforcement?1161    Ms. Fleischaker. Of course, accountability and oversight is1162absolutely necessary to any contract that we would sign. As you1163stated very eloquently, immigration enforcement, privacy, civil1164rights, civil liberties do not need to be in opposition to one1165another. They can work in concert, and it is very important1166that we have the appropriate mechanisms to do that.1167    Ms. Ansari. And finally, are you concerned that a rapid1168scaleup of detention facilities could mean that DHS cuts1169corners, fails to impose appropriate guardrails, such as1170vetting contractors, protecting human rights, and ensuring fair1171and competitive bidding processes?1172    Ms. Fleischaker. Absolutely. Detention is very complicated.1173The people in detention need to be provided appropriate levels1174of care. When you ramp up too quickly, you end up using1175facilities that do not have the staffing levels to provide that1176care, do not have the capabilities of providing that care, and1177people get hurt or die.1178    Ms. Ansari. Thank you so much. I yield back.1179    Ms. Mace. Thank you. I now recognize Representative1180Burlison for 5 minutes.1181    Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Chairwoman Mace, for having this1182important hearing. You know, it is really good to see that the1183disaster that was Alejandro Mayorkas is gone. He is a disgrace.1184I am glad he was impeached, and he will forever have a stain on1185the history of the United States and the scourge that he1186allowed to ensue. But he lied to us multiple times. He stood1187before Members of Congress and he said the border is secure.1188Well, I ask you, Mr. Fabbricatore, Dr. Gilmer, was that true?1189    Mr. Fabbricatore. It was absolutely not true. The border1190was not secure.1191    Mr. Gilmer. It was not secure, and it was made less secure.1192    Mr. Burlison. OK. Then he went on to NPR, OK, and he had an1193interview just this year in which he said that, you know, the1194border is now more secure under the end of the Biden1195Administration than it was in 2019. Is that true?1196    Mr. Fabbricatore. No, it is not true. The border is more1197secure with this Administration that is in place.1198    Mr. Gilmer. I echo my colleague.1199    Mr. Burlison. OK. Then my other question is that he also1200said that to truly secure the border, that really that they1201were doing the most that they possibly could do as an executive1202branch, that Congress had to act, and we have heard that again1203and again, but the data and the facts dispute otherwise, right?1204So, is Congress the only one that can make a difference, or can1205the President actually make a difference?1206    Mr. Fabbricatore. The President can absolutely make a1207difference. It is about attitude and effort. This President,1208President Trump, is putting in the attitude that is needed to1209say the border should be secure and he is putting in the1210effort. It is something that the last Administration did not1211do. They did not have that attitude. They wanted people to come1212in, and they did not put any effort.1213    Mr. Gilmer. Again, I echo my colleague. We have laws on the1214books. We have Title 8, which is our immigration law. It is the1215huge volume that my colleague and I had to virtually memorize1216early in our careers. While maybe it has not kept up with the1217current state of time----1218    Mr. Burlison. It is still pretty clear.1219    Mr. Gilmer. It is still pretty clear, and----1220    Mr. Burlison. And it is still illegal.1221    Mr. Gilmer. Yes, and it is actually not a bad piece of1222legislation. It just has not kept up with the times, and if we1223were allowed to enforce those laws in the manner and spirit in1224which those laws were written, we would be much more effective.1225    Mr. Burlison. Let me ask this. Was the CBP One app1226effective, or was it a disaster?1227    Mr. Fabbricatore. It was a disaster in the way that they1228used it. The CBP One app was not meant to be used for what it1229was used for under the Biden Administration. It was supposed to1230be used for bringing in goods and traffic, and other things.1231The way that they used it, I believe, was an end-run around1232Congress.1233    Mr. Burlison. OK. Is there any technology that you would1234advocate for that would help, you know, ICE do its job?1235    Mr. Fabbricatore. There is a lot of technology that is out1236there, and I think it is important that we bring this1237technology forward, and we allow ICE agents to actually use1238some of it to see what is the best that we would need. When we1239are looking at the CBP One app and how it was used, there may1240be technology within that that we could have used. It is just1241how the application was actually used and what it was used for.1242    Mr. Burlison. I know that with the advent of AI, it may1243open up some opportunities to dig deeper into people's1244backgrounds and their histories.1245    Mr. Fabbricatore. AI is going to definitely be1246groundbreaking for us, but we are always going to need that1247human element because getting human intelligence out of someone1248else right now is not easily done just with AI. You still need1249that case agent to be able to look in the eyes of the person1250that is sitting in front of them to develop that human intel.1251    Mr. Gilmer. I agree. Technology is never going to fully1252replace humans, but there is technology out there today that we1253need to learn to use better. As a matter of coincidence, right1254now in Washington, DC, about five blocks from here, there are1255probably about 150 of the most tech savvy, innovative tech1256providers, solution providers, developers that are meeting1257privately to address these very issues that we are talking1258about right now. And that is where a lot of these solutions are1259going to come from: the minds of private industry who can help1260guide the Federal Government in a safe, secure use of1261technology.1262    Mr. Burlison. Well, thank you, and thank you for your1263service to our country. I am sorry that your Administration let1264you down and let other ICE agents down, and with that, I yield.1265    Ms. Mace. Thank you. I will now recognize Congressman1266Subramanyam for 5 minutes.1267    Mr. Subramanyam. Thank you. I wanted to go back to a couple1268of things people have said. One was that we do not have enough1269ICE agents, and, generally, you know, there is a people problem1270here as well. And I would love to know, Ms. Fleischacker, you1271know, recently we saw that about 400 people were fired at DHS,1272and some of them were from the DHS Science and Technology1273Directorate. How do you think these firings are going to1274impact, you know, being able to use science and technology for1275border security?1276    Ms. Fleischaker. I think letting civil servants who are1277doing a good job go damages morale and will decrease the1278effectiveness of the Agency.1279    Mr. Subramanyam. And could you tell us much about what the1280Science and Technology Directorate does, or did you have any1281experience with them?1282    Ms. Fleischaker. I did not work directly with the Science1283and Technology Directorate. I would be happy to get back to1284you.1285    Mr. Subramanyam. Sure. No problem.1286    Mr. Subramanyam. And there was also a Cybersecurity and1287Infrastructure Security Agency within. Did you work with them1288at all?1289    Ms. Fleischaker. I worked with them a little bit. They do a1290lot of election security work.1291    Mr. Subramanyam. OK. And you know, I think, right now,1292there is an effort to fire all, I guess, probationary workers1293as well at DHS. Long term, if we are losing people at DHS, how1294is that going to impact, you know, the morale, the ability to1295address border security generally?1296    Ms. Fleischaker. I think it is incredibly damaging. I think1297that we need to be approaching efficiency with a scalpel, not a1298sledgehammer. And simply getting rid of probationary employees,1299who may be excellent and may have actually been government1300employees for a very long time, is not the appropriate way of1301doing that.1302    Mr. Subramanyam. And I want to go back to the CBP One app.1303Which Administration launched the CBP One app?1304    Ms. Fleischaker. I actually do not know where it was1305originally developed. I know that under the Biden1306Administration, they reworked it and launched it in the form1307that people are discussing today.1308    Mr. Subramanyam. OK. And you mentioned the ICE check-in1309app, and do the people who created that app, are they still1310employed at DHS? Do you know?1311    Ms. Fleischaker. Many of them are, yes.1312    Mr. Subramanyam. Many of them, but not all of them?1313    Ms. Fleischaker. I----1314    Mr. Subramanyam. Yes.1315    Ms. Fleischaker. You know, it is a broad team that develops1316these things, so I do not know to a person, but I know that1317many, many of the leaders still are there.1318    Mr. Subramanyam. And you were the Chief Privacy Officer1319at----1320    Ms. Fleischaker. I was the Acting Chief Privacy Officer at1321the end of my----1322    Mr. Subramanyam. There has been this discussion about data1323privacy and civil liberties related to some of these1324technologies, how would you characterize--what are your1325thoughts on that conversation?1326    Ms. Fleischaker. There are laws, regulations, and policies1327that are in place that make clear that privacy is important.1328There are processes that the Department follows to ensure that1329privacy is being protected when new programs or technologies1330are implemented. I think that that is an important part of1331oversight and care that we can take in making sure that the1332technologies and the programs that we deploy are used as we1333want them to be used, and there are not unintended1334consequences.1335    Mr. Subramanyam. Thank you. I am going to yield my time to1336the Ranking Member.1337    Ms. Brown. I yield back. Thank you.1338    Ms. Mace. OK. I will now yield 5 minutes to Representative1339Crane from Arizona.1340    Mr. Crane. Thank you, Mr. Chairwoman, for holding this1341important hearing on cybersecurity, information technology, and1342government innovation.1343    President Trump has only been back in office for 43 days,1344and border encounters are down 66 percent compared with the1345beginning of 2024. In February, we saw 8,326 border encounters.1346That number reached 189,913 in February of last year under1347Biden. Last week, single-day border apprehensions hit a 15-year1348low. President Trump and our new leadership at the Homeland1349Security Department are equipping Border Patrol agents and law1350enforcement to do their jobs. We were told by so many people on1351the right and the left just last year that the solution to our1352border crisis was a bipartisan border deal. Biden and border1353czar, Kamala Harris, blamed Congress for continued border1354failures. Meanwhile, President Trump restored order and1355security almost immediately.1356    I next want to take an opportunity to correct the record1357real quick. My colleague, Ms. Brown, said that she was talking1358about the cruel way that the President talks about immigrants.1359I am pretty sure, Ms. Chairwoman, that the President actually1360married an immigrant. I do not think he has a problem with1361immigrants at all. What I think he has a problem with is this1362last Administration that threw the border completely wide open,1363let in between 10 and 15 million illegals, and some of them1364unfortunately raped and murdered many Americans, and that is1365what he really has a problem with. He also has a problem with1366U.S. taxpayers having to foot the bill for all of it.1367    I recently spoke to a DA from Pinal County in my district,1368who told me his police officers still have very little1369information when they arrest illegal aliens on their status or1370backgrounds due to poor vetting and lack of biometrics. Mr.1371Gilmer, how would some of these technology tools we are not1372currently using enable Border Patrol officials to stop the flow1373of illegal aliens, while also assisting our law enforcement1374officers?1375    Mr. Gilmer. I do not know that some of the technology, such1376as the EDDIE machine, is necessarily going to stop illegal1377crossings. If you have somebody determined enough to come1378across there, they are going to find a way to come across. But1379what that technology does, whether it is the EDDIE device,1380whether it is facial pattern matching technology, it helps us1381to rapidly identify individuals and identify where they might1382be on a threat matrix. Are they a known or suspected gang1383member? Are they on the terrorism watch list, for instance? Are1384they a person who is already potentially the subject of an1385investigation by HSI or another Federal law enforcement agency?1386Being able to rapidly identify, you know, that biometric1387information, which, you know, it is difficult to get biometrics1388to lie, a person can tell us a story, give us a wrong name, all1389day long, but I can tell you----1390    Mr. Crane. Thank you.1391    Mr. Gilmer. [continuing.] Putting an EDDIE in front of1392somebody gets them to identify very quickly.1393    Mr. Crane. Great. Let us talk about some other technologies1394then. Not only did the Biden Administration stop building the1395wall, but is it not true that they also refused to put up key1396technology components like sensors, lighting that was already1397purchased on border wall system, Mr. Fabbricatore?1398    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, that is absolutely correct. I have1399been down to the border about 8 times since I retired in 2022.1400Got to speak to a lot of Border Patrol agents. Cameras are down1401on the border. The technology for sensors has not been1402improved, and I heard many complaints from Border Patrol1403agents.1404    Mr. Crane. Is it true that the Biden Administration also1405banned the use of DNA testing so that agents could no longer1406know if children belonged to the adults they were with, or if1407they were being trafficked, Mr. Fabbricatore?1408    Mr. Fabbricatore. Unfortunately, that is very true. When1409the Biden Administration first came into office, they had1410stopped the DNA testing that President Trump had put into play1411in his first term, which kept us from being able to verify1412whether children actually belong with the adults that they were1413traveling with.1414    Mr. Crane. Thank you. Ms. Fleischaker, you focused a lot on1415the decrease in outputs under this Administration. You cited in1416your testimony that Axios reported yesterday the removals and1417arrests during the Trump administration are lower than the1418daily averages in averages in Fiscal Year 2024, and then you go1419on to give some statistics. But is it not true, ma'am, that you1420know, some of the data going down might have something to do1421with the fact that the flow of illegals trying to come into the1422country is down as well?1423    Ms. Fleischaker. I am not in the Administration. I can only1424go by what is reported.1425    Mr. Crane. But do you know that the flow is down because1426people now know that our border is secure?1427    Ms. Fleischaker. I mean----1428    Ms. Mace. Very quickly.1429    Ms. Fleischaker. I would state that the flow has been1430decreasing for a number of months.1431    Mr. Crane. Thank you. I yield back.1432    Ms. Mace. Thank you. I will now recognize Representative1433McGuire for 5 minutes.1434    Mr. McGuire. Thank you, Chairwoman Mace, and thank you to1435our witnesses for being here today.1436    The American people have suffered from the Biden-Harris1437Administration's failure of keeping the American people safe at1438home and abroad, and especially at our Southern border. Because1439time is an issue, I want to go real fast with four ``yes'' or1440``no'' questions. No. 1, if you cross our border illegally, are1441you a criminal?1442    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes.1443    Mr. Gilmer. Yes.1444    Mr. Hankinson. Yes.1445    Ms. Fleischaker. It is usually considered----1446    Mr. McGuire. That is a yes or no.1447    Ms. Fleischaker. Yes.1448    Mr. McGuire. Thank you. No. 2, yes or no, criminals do not1449care about the law.1450    Mr. Fabbricatore. They do not care.1451    Mr. Gilmer. They do not care.1452    Mr. Hankinson. No.1453    Ms. Fleischaker. I do not think I can say ``yes'' or ``no''1454to that. It depends on the person.1455    Mr. McGuire. I see what we are working with. All right. No.14563, this statement, do you agree with it, yes or no, ``Police1457are good, criminals are bad, and victims are important.''1458    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, absolutely.1459    Mr. Gilmer. One hundred percent, yes.1460    Mr. Hankinson. Yes.1461    Ms. Fleischaker. Again, people are complicated----1462    Mr. McGuire. I see what we are dealing with.1463    Ms. Fleischaker. [continuing.] But generally, yes.1464    Mr. McGuire. All right. No. 4. Last one. Trump is more1465effective at securing our Southern border than the Biden1466Administration. Yes or no.1467    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes.1468    Mr. Gilmer. Yes.1469    Mr. Hankinson. Yes.1470    Ms. Fleischaker. I do not have the information to answer1471that.1472    Mr. McGuire. Interesting. The past 4 years with Biden, our1473border has been an open door, and the for the folks that1474support the Biden Administration, they say that illegals have1475come here for a better life, but they started off as a1476criminal, and they started off breaking our law. We talked1477about the 12-year-old Jocelyn earlier. We talk about Laken1478Riley. These illegal aliens have been robbing, raping, and1479killing the American people. And I heard one of the witnesses1480talk about, hey, the Trump policies could cause people to be1481hurt or die. What about the American people that have been1482robbed, raped, and killed? I do not see anyone on the other1483side talking about that. They tore down our border wall that1484was placed specifically by our Border Patrol, where it was the1485most dangerous to protect the American people, and under the1486Biden Administration, they removed that wall. And I have1487heard--this is a ``yes'' or ``no,'' I guess--I have heard that1488we had electronics on that wall, so it was not just a steel1489wall, and the Biden Administration refused to use those1490electronics, and they actually tore them down. Is this1491information true?1492    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes.1493    Mr. Gilmer. That is my understanding.1494    Mr. Hankinson. I cannot specifically say the equipment was1495taken, but I was told that there were repairs that were not1496done and lights and sensors and other things were not turned1497on.1498    Ms. Fleischaker. I did not work on the border wall. I do1499not know the answer.1500    Mr. McGuire. Understood. So, we have the fentanyl overdose1501epidemic in our country. I call it Chinese chemical warfare. It1502is being produced in China, coming across the Southern border,1503and poisoning and killing more Americans each year than died in1504the Vietnam War. When you express your concern about people1505might get hurt or die, what about those hundred thousand-plus1506Americans that are killed every day? Thank God President Trump1507is back in the White House, and not to mention human1508trafficking and all the children that are gone missing that we1509all know about. Data shows that border encounters have1510decreased by 66 percent compared to January 2024. However,1511again, millions of illegal aliens who were released by the1512Biden Administration are still in our country.1513    Mr. Fabbricatore and Dr. Gilmer, as former ICE agents1514working during the Biden Administration, is it fair to say that1515this was the worst administration to work with regard to1516enforcing immigration law in the U.S.? Please answer ``yes'' or1517``no.''1518    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, it was.1519    Mr. McGuire. Could you provide more specific examples----1520    Mr. Gilmer. Yes.1521    Mr. McGuire. Excuse me. Can you provide more specific1522examples of policies that made your job more difficult under1523the Biden Administration?1524    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, for sure. You know, I retired under1525the Biden Administration because of how horrible it was. I just1526could not give the orders to the men and women that worked for1527me that I felt were counter to protecting the United States.1528One of those was just a system that they had set up where, as a1529supervisor, when agents would put information in the system, it1530was so tiered that we could not allow these agents out onto the1531street to actually make arrests. They were limiting the arrests1532that we were making.1533    Mr. McGuire. Dr. Gilmer, running out of time.1534    Mr. Gilmer. Yes. I echo my colleague. The moratorium that1535was initially placed on making arrests significantly impacted1536our ability. We had cases that we were attempting to assist our1537state and local partners with. In one particular case, we had a1538sex offender who shot his victim, and they were attempting to1539obtain warrants on the subject, but we thought that we could1540actually detain that person and get them off the street, but we1541were not allowed to.1542    Mr. McGuire. These policies that we are talking about today1543with the Biden Administration, they are absolutely not serious1544about protecting our border or the American people at home and1545abroad, and thank God we have President Trump in the White1546House. I would ask both of you, Mr. Fabbricatore and Dr.1547Gilmer, what tools does Congress need to give ICE to achieve1548its mission?1549    Ms. Mace. Very quickly.1550    Mr. Fabbricatore. No. 1, we need the money to be able to1551have more beds. We need detention space, and we need more ERO1552officers out on the street and this technology as well.1553    Mr. Gilmer. I echo my colleague. We need the technology and1554the resources, but we need the personnel to use that technology1555and fulfill the mission and purpose.1556    Mr. McGuire. I yield. Thank you.1557    Ms. Mace. Thank you. In closing, I want to thank our1558panelists once again for your testimony this morning. We1559appreciate everyone's perspectives, experiences, and expertise1560on this.1561    We can use technology to investigate those who are here1562illegally and get them back out of the country. This issue is1563really important. As I said earlier, I was recently on an ICE1564raid in my hometown of Goose Creek, South Carolina. Goose1565Creek, beautiful neighborhood, beautiful houses. We roll up in1566there at 6 a.m. because this 18-year-old kid who came here1567illegally had a brick of fentanyl on him a week before that1568would kill God knows how many people in this country, and he1569was affiliated allegedly with some particular gangs.1570    I did a ride along with the North Charleston Police1571Department in Charleston, South Carolina, a couple weeks ago as1572well. And I want to thank all of my local law enforcement1573officers, ICE agents, Homeland Security agents, all these1574people who are out there putting their lives on the line to1575protect us and deport those who are here illegally. But when I1576was on this ride along with local police, it was really cold1577that night. I learned that even late at night, 10 p.m.,1578criminals do not come out when it is cold by the way. I got to1579go back when it is a little bit warmer. However, instead they1580drove me down certain streets, like Stall Road in North1581Charleston. That is where the Sinaloa Cartel hangs out. That is1582where gang members from MS-13 hang out. Tren de Aragua is in1583South Carolina. These cartel gang members, these people are1584everywhere. It is not just in big cities like New York. It is1585not just the Roosevelt Hotel where we are housing many of these1586people. They are in Goose Creek, South Carolina. You all have1587never heard of Goose Creek. It is a small town. They are1588literally everywhere, and it is scary, and we have allowed this1589to go on.1590    We had Maddie Hines, just 2 years ago, this young 4-year-1591old girl from South Carolina who was hit by an illegal alien.1592That guy, that criminal, that murderer, was deported under1593Donald Trump and let back in under Joe Biden. Last year, the1594spring of last year, a 4-month-old infant killed by an illegal1595alien on the roads of Beaufort County, South Carolina, her life1596stolen. That baby was stolen from the parents of an American1597family who did not deserve it. No one deserves that. And we1598have seen--thank God for Donald Trump, I praise the Lord above1599every single day--illegal border crossings are down by over 901600percent now just because he is President and showing strength,1601showing leadership, putting people like Tom Homan as border1602czar to make sure this stuff does not go on anymore.1603    I am very passionate about women's issues, not just illegal1604immigration, but I had a bill that passed on the floor of the1605House a couple of weeks ago, the Violence Against Women by1606Illegal Aliens Act. I am a rape survivor. I take it very1607seriously. If you are here illegally and you rape a woman, you1608molest a child, you murder one of us, you are gone. A hundred1609and forty-five Democrats voted against that bill. It is1610shameful, and we are going to work hard for the American1611people, for everyone across South Carolina.1612    I want to thank our witnesses for everyone for being here1613today. God bless you. Thank you for your service to our country1614and her citizens to keep us safe, exposing the truth, exposing1615the corruption, exposing what is going on here. It is1616disgusting. It is shameful. People ought to be not just fired.1617They need to be prosecuted, and they need to go to prison. It1618needs to happen immediately.1619    So, with that, and without objection, all Members will have16205 legislative days within which to submit materials and to1621submit additional written questions for the witnesses, which1622will then be forwarded to the witnesses for their response.1623    If there is no further business, without objection, the1624Subcommittee stands adjourned.1625    [Whereupon, at 11:24 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]16261627                                 [all]